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Kyle finally sees "The Passion" and is forced to admit Cartman has been right all along. Meanwhile many of the film's hardcore fans band together under Cartman's leadership to carry out it's message. Stan and Kyle hated the movie so much that they decide to get their 18 dollars back from a whacked-out Mel Gibson.
"It's not about the money. It's about people taking responsibility for a bad movie, just like when we saw Baseketball." LOL!
I should have known Matt & Trey wouldn't let me down. This episode tells us just why no one had ever done such a movie before. We don't need to depend on S&M (instead of His teachings) to promote/strengthen faith.
So what did y'all think?
Last edited by McGurk; 2004-04-01 3:15 AM.
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For me, it was just saying the same things that I've been telling people all along. The important part of Jesus's story is what he taught, not how he got killed. A lot of people got crucified during that time in much the same manner. And Mel Gibson's gotta be a complete nutjob considering just how whacko his father is.
It was great to see guys with a level of fame come out and say this stuff.
And that's terrible.
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My friend saw it and told me that it was quite possibly the most outrageous South Park episode ever, and that if he were Mel Gibson he'd want to kill Matt and Trey.
I don't know how it could be any worse than Cartman pretending to be retarded so he could win the special olympics. Or Christopher Reeves drinking aborted fetuses so that he could walk again.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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I don't get pissed off at things because I'm unoffendable. But I will say that it is possibly the most stupid episode theme and message those guys have ever come up with. It's already been said ad nauseum that the movie is made for Christians and meant only for their benefit of of belief and inspiration. Just because people misinterpret shit, it doesn't mean the thing that's been misinterpreted should be denigrated--The same goes for the one who MADE said "thing". I see em' trashing the movie and Mel to the point of exhaustion because of the feedback it's getting (it's a hate movie designed to put the Jews through a guilt trip/denounce them--It's being seen so much therefore we should see it too--Too much graphic violence) and that's frickin' annoying and makes me not laugh. The sole reason why is because I only laugh at their parodys that are TRUE (funny cuz' it's true and all that good shit). They're going off of REALLY flimsy assumptions about the movie's purpose that have been disproven a bunch of times. This is opposed to all of their other eps that had FACTUAL and BACKED UP slanderous parodies. What I saw was purely bias and jerk offy. And really, using Cartman as the voice of apparent facts on what the movie is truly made for is stupid. Not all Christians are like Cartman. Focusing on individual beliefs and USE of said beliefs without noting other opinions of other individuals seeing the picture from the correct and less extreme view is just so incredibly flawed. I can't stress enough Its totally bias and misleading viewpoint--Not to mention how stupid it was when EVERYONE was saying that they will become better people because of it. That's more evidence of lack of unobservant qualities to the feedback and just over estimation of (psuedo)general opinion.
I'm not sure if I'd call this the worst ep ever, but either way, I'll still watch the show because as I said before: I'm unoffendable.
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I thought it was a great ep. Best one in a long time. I saw that whole thing with Cartman as making fun of people who thought things would get out of hand, while at the same time telling people who are like Cartman that they are idiots and they need to chill. The people who followed Cartman, but weren't really following him, they were the masses, the people who don't realize that the film could incite anti-Semitism if the message were to be misunderstood. Mel Gibson is a bit of a wacko, and he got what was coming to him. Stan and Kenny are the regular people who were curious about actually seeing what Jesus died for, but in the end they understood that the message was lost in the unneccessary gore of the movie. There are people out there who have called this a snuf film. The whole "it's the principle" thing was great. And Kyle, poor Kyle. He's the kid who feels this unrightous pressure by the ignorant (Cartman) to apologize for something that he's not responsible for. One thing the ignorant (Cartman) overlook is that the Romans killed Jesus. But, the Romans aren't around anymore, and some people have to blame someone for everything. Don't believe me? Check out some of the threads in the Deap Thoughts Forum. 
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Quote:
PenWing said:
One thing the ignorant (Cartman) overlook is that the Romans killed Jesus. But, the Romans aren't around anymore, and some people have to blame someone for everything.
Not so! They just call themselves "Italians" nowadays and hope nobody catches on.
Knutreturns said: Spoken like the true Greatest RDCW Champ!
All hail King Snarf!
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Quote:
Pariah said:
I don't get pissed off at things because I'm unoffendable. But I will say that it is possibly the most stupid episode theme and message those guys have ever come up with. It's already been said ad nauseum that the movie is made for Christians and meant only for their benefit of of belief and inspiration. Just because people misinterpret shit, it doesn't mean the thing that's been misinterpreted should be denigrated--The same goes for the one who MADE said "thing". I see em' trashing the movie and Mel to the point of exhaustion because of the feedback it's getting (it's a hate movie designed to put the Jews through a guilt trip/denounce them--It's being seen so much therefore we should see it too--Too much graphic violence) and that's frickin' annoying and makes me not laugh. The sole reason why is because I only laugh at their parodys that are TRUE (funny cuz' it's true and all that good shit). They're going off of REALLY flimsy assumptions about the movie's purpose that have been disproven a bunch of times. This is opposed to all of their other eps that had FACTUAL and BACKED UP slanderous parodies. What I saw was purely bias and jerk offy. And really, using Cartman as the voice of apparent facts on what the movie is truly made for is stupid. Not all Christians are like Cartman. Focusing on individual beliefs and USE of said beliefs without noting other opinions of other individuals seeing the picture from the correct and less extreme view is just so incredibly flawed. I can't stress enough Its totally bias and misleading viewpoint--Not to mention how stupid it was when EVERYONE was saying that they will become better people because of it. That's more evidence of lack of unobservant qualities to the feedback and just over estimation of (psuedo)general opinion.
I'm not sure if I'd call this the worst ep ever, but either way, I'll still watch the show because as I said before: I'm unoffendable.
It's South Park. It's not suppose to be accurate. It's a comedic series.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Quote:
Mel Gibson is a bit of a wacko, and he got what was coming to him.
Stan and Kenny are the regular people who were curious about actually seeing what Jesus died for, but in the end they understood that the message was lost in the unneccessary gore of the movie. There are people out there who have called this a snuf film. The whole "it's the principle" thing was great.
One thing the ignorant (Cartman) overlook is that the Romans killed Jesus. But, the Romans aren't around anymore, and some people have to blame someone for everything.
PenWing, not that I'm trying to condemn the Jewish (of course), but I find that you placing blame on Mel gibson for your interpreted view of what he was trying to symbolize (hate for Jews through "unecessary" gore) because of the fact that he included rabbling and violent Jewish in the movie completely unfounded. This is complemented by an inaccuracy that leads biasly(sp) to your side of the equation, which makes everything very misleading. The Romans did have Jesus killed, but it was at the Jewish disgression. The Jewish leaders and people encouraged his death after Pilate gave them the ultimatum and they CONTINUED to do so afterwards with physical force. That's what's being noted for those people (note I did not say Jewish), and it's what's filed away to be understood as a suffering that Christ went through for us (to the Christians anyway).
I realize that you were talking about people who have extreme opinions like Cartman when you brought this up, and your pretext was completely different, but I really don't think it would be wise to let you single people out using historical inaccuracies as exemplification--Even if said people are assholes. Though, this is mainly Mel, and if you think he had an agenda and is like Cartman then all I can say is that you couldn't be more wrong man.
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I don't think Penwing was saying that's what Gibson meant, I think he was just saying Gibson has a few screws loose.....which, given what I've heard about him, sounds true.
Gibson's directorial reputation isn't exactly stellar in terms of historical accuracy. Infact, The Patriot is one of the most ridiculously inaccurate war movies I've ever seen.
Also, I think it's really weird how some Christians can be Anti-semetic, given that Jesus was Jewish. How can you hate a group of people yet worship their most famous representative?
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Quote:
I don't think Penwing was saying that's what Gibson meant, I think he was just saying Gibson has a few screws loose.....which, given what I've heard about him, sounds true.
Okay, fair enough, but......Where and when? I haven't seen any of this myself.
Given South Park's usual over-accentuation of certain characteristics to someone they're zinging (i.e. Reeve's and the fetuses, Rob Reiner and smoking ((not exactly over accentuated on his part  )), and Karol Wojtyla being old to the point of senile), it would seem logical that Gibson's portrayal is justified in such a case. But there in lies the problem: There's little incident, if any at all, that calls for Mel to be THAT overdone in the department of crazy. What's more, one of his main focuses of insanity was based on his movie being the next idol that would lead a new psuedo religion.
It just seems cheap that they do this (and portray ignorant individuals as deciding leaders) without their usual finesse of technique being that something is funny cuz' it's true just to get the point across that they didn't like the movie/it's evil because people can't think for themselves.
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Gibson's directorial reputation isn't exactly stellar in terms of historical accuracy. Infact, The Patriot is one of the most ridiculously inaccurate war movies I've ever seen.
I can neither confirm nor deny that, but either way, that doesn't exactly relate to the Passion. It pretty much followed everything documented by historians/in the Bible.
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Also, I think it's really weird how some Christians can be Anti-semetic, given that Jesus was Jewish. How can you hate a group of people yet worship their most famous representative?
I don't hate them and neither does the church. INDIVIDUALS hate them who in no way officially represent Christanity.
The people in South Park didn't hate anybody, they just thought peole would be more spiritually healthy if they got people to see the Passion. Cartman was the only one who matches your description.
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I just caught this: Quote:
The people who followed Cartman, but weren't really following him, they were the masses, the people who don't realize that the film could incite anti-Semitism if the message were to be misunderstood.
PenWing, I'm not trying to be sarcastic or spiteful here, but I feel I should approach this comment in a fashion that I'm sure contrasts to the usual arguments you here on this subject (but are still alike in every way):
Did the movie "Saving Private Ryan" lead you and other masses of people to hate and want to kill Germans? Or perhaps did the movie "Pearl Harbor" make you and other masses of people to hate and want to kill Japanese?
I honestly don't see how violence and the depiction of people who happend to be this religion or that nationality being the cause of said violence during a certain time period would have a different general effect on people from movie to movie. All of the movies based off of true events from wars or tragedies show violence and slaughter the characters you fall in love with (or are supposed to).
And really, a person could take inspiration to do ANYTHING from ANYTHING. You can't just single things out man.
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I found the episode to be really weak in contrast to the others. It didn't seem to really have a defined message or the cleverness of episodes with Big Gay Al or the kindergarten election. It felt like Trey and Matt just did a show about the Passion because it's popular and controversial. A slapped together script that didn't know what it was about. I don't care if a show makes fun of something I like or don't like or that goes against my personal beliefs, I just want it done well. I don't think they did that here. They just hit the over-the-top overdrive with no rhyme or reason. Quote:
Animalman said:
Gibson's directorial reputation isn't exactly stellar in terms of historical accuracy. Infact, The Patriot is one of the most ridiculously inaccurate war movies I've ever seen.
That's an invalid arguement since Gibson didn't direct The Patriot.
HA! I've nitpicked the nitpicker. 
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Personally, I was extremely disappointed that the episode didn't feature an appearance by Jesus Himself, Who's a recurring character in the show. I don't think He's been in an episode since the Three Kings homage, where He went into Baghdad "packing heat" to save Santa Clause.
Quote:
thedoctor said:Quote:
Animalman said:
Gibson's directorial reputation isn't exactly stellar in terms of historical accuracy. Infact, The Patriot is one of the most ridiculously inaccurate war movies I've ever seen.
That's an invalid arguement since Gibson didn't direct The Patriot.
HA! I've nitpicked the nitpicker.
Braveheart would've been a better example, anyways.
And that's terrible.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
There's little incident, if any at all, that calls for Mel to be THAT overdone in the department of crazy.
Well, I haven't seen the episode, but I would assume only because of how insanely popular the movie is.
I go out with my friends every Friday night to see a movie, and every Friday night for the past few weeks every showing of Passion is sold out, from mid-day well into the night. It was so ridiculous on the first week that the theatre had to divide the ticket purchase lines into two sections: one for Passion and one for everything else. The Passion line extended out into the parking lot.
South Park is all about insulting obsessive popular culture. They did the same thing with their Pokemon episode.
Quote:
It just seems cheap that they do this (and portray ignorant individuals as deciding leaders) without their usual finesse of technique being that something is funny cuz' it's true just to get the point across that they didn't like the movie/it's evil because people can't think for themselves.
I'm sorry, I see no "finesse" whatsoever in any of their humor. It's not a "finesse" show. It's South Park, not Dennis Miller.
Quote:
I don't hate them and neither does the church. INDIVIDUALS hate them who in no way officially represent Christanity.
I meant "you" in the general sense, and I don't think the anti-semetics represent the church(though I think you could spend days debating who, exactly, does represent the church). I just think it's crazy how some people can hate them, like Mel Gibson's father.
Quote:
thedoctor said:
That's an invalid arguement since Gibson didn't direct The Patriot.
Patriot, Braveheart, whatever. Both horrendously bad war movies with Mel Gibson killing lots of people.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Pariah, all I meant by my comments is that everyone was made fun of equally. Everyone.
And I don't need a movie to dislike Germans. All I have to do is think about all of my great aunts and uncles they butchered. And those are the people I should have had a chance to know in my life. Then there are the children they never had a chance to have. It goes on.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Quote:
Kristogar Velo said:
Personally, I was extremely disappointed that the episode didn't feature an appearance by Jesus Himself, Who's a recurring character in the show. I don't think He's been in an episode since the Three Kings homage, where He went into Baghdad "packing heat" to save Santa Clause.
Poo choo train's laying down its tracks, with a poo choo all the way and back.
Poo poo train is my favorite thing, spreading Christmas joy as we ride and sing!
"Red Sleigh Down" was indeed his last appearance, when he shed his blood and they decided to dedicate Christmas to the day he gave his life to save us all. Where do they come up with these ideas? 
Since I've finally got an icon for the Rob K. boards, let me plug my clay figures once more:
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Put Natasha on the phone.
Who is this?
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This is her fucking son.
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Call back in 20 minutes. *click*
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Quote:
PenWing said:
Pariah, all I meant by my comments is that everyone was made fun of equally. Everyone.
I don't really agree, but okay. S'long a that's cleared up. 
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Quote:
It was so ridiculous on the first week that the theatre had to divide the ticket purchase lines into two sections: one for Passion and one for everything else. The Passion line extended out into the parking lot.
South Park is all about insulting obsessive popular culture. They did the same thing with their Pokemon episode.
Alright, fine. That is ONE of their comedic angles (from what I see), but what exactly do you mean by rediculous?
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I'm sorry, I see no "finesse" whatsoever in any of their humor. It's not a "finesse" show. It's South Park, not Dennis Miller.
I mean finesse in their placement of insults. With a few understandable exceptions (Satan, Hussein), they upped the quirkiness of all the celebrities known for this or that eccentricity:
Rosie O'donnel: Hideous
Jennifer Lopez: Bitch
Ben Affleck: Boy toy (while they were stil married)
Osama Bin Laden: Hates Americans to the point of stupidity. Just all around crazy with no common sense.
Rob Reiner: Obese facist
I just don't see how Mel earned any sort of name for himself that would label him a bit weird. I surely haven't seen anything that would give merit for accentuating ANY psychological disorder of his to the point of erattic(sp).
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I just think it's crazy how some people can hate them, like Mel Gibson's father.
Ah, gotcha. WHat's this about Mel Gibson's father? 
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Patriot, Braveheart, whatever. Both horrendously bad war movies with Mel Gibson killing lots of people.
Whoa!! Hold on there. I'll agree with you on Patriot; as boring as fuck. But what did you find wrong with Braveheart?
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Alright, fine. That is ONE of their comedic angles (from what I see), but what exactly do you mean by rediculous?
I find it bizarre that people can be that obsessed about a movie where a guy is tortured then killed for 2 hours.
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I just don't see how Mel earned any sort of name for himself that would label him a bit weird. I surely haven't seen anything that would give merit for accentuating ANY psychological disorder of his to the point of erattic(sp).
He's had his share of odd goings on over the years. Nothing on a Michael Jackson level, of course, but still...
The interviews I've seen of Gibson talking about his motivations for making this movie(and making it in the way he made it) seem pretty strange. I mean, it's just Jesus having the shit beaten out of him for the duration of the film!
It's a pretty esoteric project.
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Ah, gotcha. WHat's this about Mel Gibson's father?
You haven't seen some of the comments he's made?
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Whoa!! Hold on there. I'll agree with you on Patriot; as boring as fuck. But what did you find wrong with Braveheart?
It was horribly inaccurate. They staged the war scenes completely wrong, the characters were all painfully obtuse, and the whole friend betrayal thing was bullshit, it never happened. A lot of gore does not a good movie make.
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meh, i have no desire to see a 2 hour long s&m/snuff film. gibson deserves to be made fun of.
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The Passion should have been written and directed by John Woo.
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Quote:
I find it bizarre that people can be that obsessed about a movie where a guy is tortured then killed for 2 hours.
I'll bet you good money that the ENTIRETY of those lines consists of Christians--Even ones who abhore senseless and meaningless violence, like my mother. We don't see this particular brutalization as senseless and meaningless because Christ's suffering and death is what saved us. It was not without meaning. We are reminded by that, and heartened by it. We don't love violence, we love Christ. And seeing what he went through for us just makes us love him more.
Quote:
The interviews I've seen of Gibson talking about his motivations for making this movie(and making it in the way he made it) seem pretty strange. I mean, it's just Jesus having the shit beaten out of him for the duration of the film!
It's a pretty esoteric project.
As explained before, he was only trying to articulate what Christ went through for us. Of course Christians are the only ones who are going to enjoy it and take a lot from it.
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You haven't seen some of the comments he's made?
Nope.
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It was horribly inaccurate. They staged the war scenes completely wrong, the characters were all painfully obtuse, and the whole friend betrayal thing was bullshit, it never happened. A lot of gore does not a good movie make.
*shrug* Its qualities as a story (plus the kick ass strategies) I thought were good though. I'm always up on the vengeance motivation myself. After all, I read Batman.
And really, it was gonna be grusome either way. Wars are bloody (especially ones that use forged weapons and involve make shift material like rocks and branches/fire). I'd wager any of the well known directors out there would add some degree of extreme violence. It was kinda crucial to show that neither William Wallace nor the rest of the Scottsman were fuckin' around. It was said IN THE MOVIE by William that he himself was a savage. He was getting that point across--And really, this was just built upon the death of his honey. This is also complemented by the fact that he was affording England the same hospitality as it did Scotland.
Now, history wise, I don't know how most of this can be attributed (except that extreme violence is a constant in close ranged battles). But as a story and movie, I thought it was very well made.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
I'll bet you good money that the ENTIRETY of those lines consists of Christians--Even ones who abhore senseless and meaningless violence, like my mother.
That's probably true, in which case, it's even more screwy, in my opinion. That people who are normally disgusted by violence can line up by the hundreds to see a movie filled with it, that's strange to me.
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We don't see this particular brutalization as senseless and meaningless because Christ's suffering and death is what saved us.
I hear that all the time, but, I have to ask(and sorry to go off topic a bit here), what did he save you from? Would the world have ended if he didn't?
I'm honestly curious, actually. Not trying to belittle Christianity.
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It was not without meaning. We are reminded by that, and heartened by it. We don't love violence, we love Christ. And seeing what he went through for us just makes us love him more.
Seeing it again? The dozen other Jesus movies aren't enough?
I'm just wondering what this adds to the story of Jesus. Because I've yet to see one person say "this showed Jesus in a whole new light" or "they showed me something I'd never seen before in regards to Jesus", and, from a purely cinematic perspective, if a movie adds nothing, then what's the point?
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As explained before, he was only trying to articulate what Christ went through for us. Of course Christians are the only ones who are going to enjoy it and take a lot from it.
Yes, therefore it's esoteric.
As for Gibson's father, he's made all kinds of insensitive remark the past few months about the Jews. He's said that the holocaust was "exaggerated", that it really wasn't as bad as everyone things, and that the U.S was just being overly sypmathic. The worst blow, however, came when he accused the Jews of conspiring to create a world theocracy, eradicating all other religions. He's even said that 9/11 was a part of this plan(which the Vatican helped execute), and that Al Queda was just the scapegoat.
This coming on top of the prevalent "Jews killed Jesus" theory(which he is a firm supporter of), which has been refuted by numerous theologians, as well as the Pope himself.
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But as a story and movie, I thought [Braveheart] was very well made.
I didn't see much of a "story". Just Gibson running around in blue warpaint hacking people to bits left and right.
And I'm of Scottish descent and a pretty big Mel Gibson fan.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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But you loved Kill Bill, which had no story, just Uma Thurman hacking people to bits left and right...and up and down...and in the other directions, too...
And that's terrible.
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There wasn't suppose to be a huge story. It wasn't a historical piece. It was popcorn action, with great animation and 70's references.
And it still had a better story than Braveheart.
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...yeah, actually, you're right. On all counts.
And that's terrible.
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A few points:
First (and less significant) Braveheart was nominated for 10 Academy Awards, and received 5 Awards that year, more than any other film nominated that year (1995).
http://www.filmsite.org/aa95.html
There are a lot of movies that have won Academy Awards that I haven't been the slightest bit thrilled about either (such as The Last Emporer, Reds, Silkwood, Sophie's Choice, or Empire of the Sun, and countless others).
But clearly, Braveheart, though not everyone's cup of tea, has some aesthetic merit.
Second, The Passion, I have to agree, could have been a more well-rounded movie, could have included more on Jesus' teachings, and how his life was the fulfillment of prophecy, and in particular after all that torment at least 5 or 10 minutes on his resurrection and being seen resurrected by thousands)
But even so, The Passion was still very scripturally accurate, in the scriptures it did portray, in terms of depicting events of Jesus' life as accurately as possible, and accurately portraying Roman torture and crucifixion practices, brutal as they were.
Third, Jesus instructs Christians to remember his sacrifice:
MATTHEW 26, verses 26-29
MARK 14, verses 22-25
LUKE 22, verses 14-23
And that commanment to "remember", and "do this in remembrance of me" (now called Communion, with bread and wine) is arguably to understand his torment, how much He willingly suffered for us, and understand the details of that torment, particularly how it is the fulfillment of prophecy:
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Psalm 22: verse 18
They divided my garments among them, and cast lots for my clothing
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John 19, verses 23-24:
Then the [Roman] soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments and made four parts, to each soldier a part, and also the tunic. Now the tunic was without seam, woven from the top in one piece. They said therefore among themselves 'Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be'..."
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Isaiah 53, verse 5
But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, and by His scourging we are healed.
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Matthew 27: verse 26:
Then he [Roman Governor Pilate] released Barrabas to them [the crowd of Jews], and when he [Pilate] had scourged Jesus, he delivered Him to be crucified.
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Psalm 22, verse 14:
My heart is like wax; it has melted within me.
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Zechariah 12: verse 10:
They Will look on Me whom they pierced.
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John 19: verse 34:
But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
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Psalm 34: verse 20:
He guards all his bones, not one of them is broken
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Psalm 22: verse 14:
And all my bones are out of joint.
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John 19:verse 33:
But coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs.
Understanding the details of Jesus' crucifixion therefore helps in understanding the accuracy of scripture.
To answer your question of how Jesus "saves" Christians is detailed, but I'll try to be concise.
After Adam and Eve and original sin, which every descendant followed in the path of, all lost eternal life and connection to God. From Genesis forward, God set out a path for humanity's redemption.
First, by selecting Abraham, and through his obedience and that of his descendents, the Jews, assembling the books that would become the Bible, a written account of Jewish history, personal examples of how to be faithful to God, and also through psalms, proverbs, and prophecy, foretelling of a coming Messiah.
The first symbolic event is the Passover(in Exodus, circa 1400 B.C.). Centuries before Passover began, offerings to God were made. If an animal was killed, part of the animal would be burned as offerings to God.
(Fire is also a method of purification in the Bible, purifying the offering to God.)
In the case of the Jews held captive in Egypt (as detailed in Exodus) when God wanted the Jews freed, and the Pharoah of Egypt would not free them, God set loose 10 consecutive plagues on Egypt, each increasingly devastating to Egypt. After each, the Pharoah would still not free the Jews.
The final one was killing the firstborn children of Egypt. The Jews were protected from this because of sacrificial animal blood placed on the front door of the home of each Jewish family. For each family that did this, the vengeance of God would "pass over" that house and leave them safe from death. Which is where the Jewish tradition of Passover comes from. (As detailed in Exodus)
Prophecies throughout the Old Testament tell of the Messiah who will save Israel. Many of the Prophets were killed by Jews who didn't believe at the time they were truly prophets.
Israel was conquered (from roughly 900 B.C. to the time of Christ) by a series of empires: The Babylonian empire, the Assyrian empire, the Greek Empire, and up through the time of Christ, the Roman empire. Under each empire, Israel was brutally occupied and lost much of its cultural identity.
The prophets told Israelites that if they gave up their secular ways and re-committed themselves to God, they would be delivered from foreign rule and become a great nation again. Jews were expecting a military and political leader.
But when Jesus came, He was a spiritual leader, who lived in servitude to others, and pursuit of a greater spiritual kingdom.
Jesus is:
- a descendent of the house of King David,
- born in Bethlehem,
- forced to flee to Egypt because King Herod killed all male infants in the city to try, when Herod heard a male child born in Bethlehem was the promised Messiah (unknown to Herod to be Jesus) and killed all male children in Bethlehem under the age of 2, to prevent the child from growing to adulthood and becoming a future rival to his (Herod's) monarchy.
These (and the other verses I quoted above) are a few prophecied details of the promised Messiah's birth and early life, that Jesus fulfilled, that he could not have controlled. (All detailed as fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, as detailed in the opening chapters of Matthew)
Many other details of Christ's life (Christ means Messiah. Jesus, or Yeshua in its original language, means "he who saves") are all details foretold by the Old Testament prophets, many up to a thousand years before Jesus was born. Jesus, or his family, or his followers could have caused some of the events of Jesus' life to occur, to be consistent with prophecy. But there is no way that all of these events could have been planned.
The four gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) are four different eyewitness accounts of the life of Christ, and are consistent, but have slightly different emphasis, and so each gives slightly longer or shorter accounts of different events. Matthew for example, is written specifically for Jews familiar with the Old Testament, and gives more emphasis to the fulfillment of Old Testament scripture about the foretold Messiah, than do the other Gospels. Although all quote prior scriptures that were fulfilled by Jesus.
Blood sacrifice was required for the repayment of sins. In the tradition of Passover, Jesus, free of sin and having lived a life of example to others, though blameless, willingly allowed himself to be sacrificed, and by doing so, allowed himself to become the blood sacrifice for the sins of all humanity.
So whoever believes in Jesus and follows his teachings, though each has sinned, is passed over and saved from eternal damnation and punishment, and each gains eternal life, and is spared eternal separation from God.
(Some believe that punishment in the afterlife is simply eternal separation from God, others believe in a physical place called Hell.)
The relationship between God the Holy Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit is difficult to summarize. Basically, these are three manifestations of the same God.
Jesus is God in human form, who in order to be fair in judgement of humanity, willingly humbled himself, separating Himself from His own omnipotent knowledge and power to live in human form, to face all the same vulnerabilities and temptations that we face.
Through Jesus' own faith in God the Father, through spiritual growth and prayer He connected himself to the power he had willingly separated himself from.
The Holy Spirit is the spirit of God that Christians reach through prayer, communication with God, and allowing God into our hearts to work within us.
Jesus was the first person resurrected, and ascended into heaven (detailed in the book of Acts, and also detailed more briefly in the final chapter of each of the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John). His resurrection shows the way open to all who believe in Jesus, and follow his teachings.
That (long-winded as it is) is the most concise way I know to explain what "saved" by Jesus means.
Here is a link to the complete Bible online (both Old Testament and New Testament):
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=NIV&passage=all
Old Testament basically means God's promise to the world before Christ. From the Garden of Eden, Noah, Abraham, and Abraham's descendents, up till around 400 B.C.
New Testament is God's new covenant with the human race, through Jesus' teachings and His fulfillment of prophecy, both through Christ's life, and fulfilled prophecy continuing on till His second coming.
Such as the Jews scattered by the Romans in 70 A.D., who once again became a nation (as foretold in prophecy) in 1948.
[ edited slightly for typos and clarity. ]
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Braveheart was factually bullshit, but ispired a huge wave of Scottish nationalism, which I've always found pretty funny.
I enjoyed it though. After a while you get used to every Englishman outside of Bond being a bastard (Rush Hour only ever had one possible traitor), and I'm not nationalistic by nature.
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Jesus was short, ugly, and probably had short hair.
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Long-winded indeed, but thanks for that response, Dave. Well stated.
I had heard explanations before, but what I never could really understand is why the saving came then, rather than, say, at the end of time(which is actually what Jesus's followers believed was upon them).
People still sin. Some maim, rape and kill without reason, some murder thousands, some millions. The fact that Jesus died before the time of Hitler or De Sade or Bundy makes it seem like he was excusing more than he was saving. Afterall, we do still have free will. Many have chosen(and many will continue to choose) to reject the message of Jesus and of Christianity as a whole.
As for Braveheart, I think it just fit the model of the film the academy loves to shower with praise. It was a period piece, much like Gladiator, which also won 5 Oscars(including Best Picture). Personally, I thought Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon was so far and away the best movie of that year it's not even funny. I can't remember offhand any of the movies from '95, though...
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Quote:
Animalman said:
Long-winded indeed, but thanks for that response, Dave. Well stated.
I had heard explanations before, but what I never could really understand is why the saving came then, rather than, say, at the end of time(which is actually what Jesus's followers believed was upon them).
People still sin. Some maim, rape and kill without reason, some murder thousands, some millions. The fact that Jesus died before the time of Hitler or De Sade or Bundy makes it seem like he was excusing more than he was saving. Afterall, we do still have free will. Many have chosen(and many will continue to choose) to reject the message of Jesus and of Christianity as a whole.
Which is why a person has to accept Christ as his savior to receive the pass into heaven. You just can't lead wanton life and expect everything to go hunky-dory when you die just because you're Christian. You have to fully make the choice of accepting Christ and his teachings, which also means facing punishment for your actions. You don't get it if you don't honestly believe it.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Quote:
Animalman said:
I can't remember offhand any of the movies from '95, though...
The other nominees:
- Apollo 13
- Babe
- Il Postino
- Sense and Sensibility
How Babe was nominated over Toy Story is beyond me. Casino, Twelve Monkeys(DEFINITELY the deserving winner) and Mighty Aphrodite got snubbed.
Not a great year for movies... 
And that's terrible.
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
Which is why a person has to accept Christ as his savior to receive the pass into heaven. You just can't lead wanton life and expect everything to go hunky-dory when you die just because you're Christian. You have to fully make the choice of accepting Christ and his teachings, which also means facing punishment for your actions. You don't get it if you don't honestly believe it.
I'm not saying they wouldn't believe it, but how many murderers, theives and crooks live lives of sin, then "repent" on their deathbeds and are, according to scripture, forgiven in the eys of the lord?
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Quote:
That's probably true, in which case, it's even more screwy, in my opinion. That people who are normally disgusted by violence can line up by the hundreds to see a movie filled with it, that's strange to me.
I explained why it's not screwy to us right after the previous statement you're replying to here:
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We don't see this particular brutalization as senseless and meaningless because Christ's suffering and death is what saved us.
To remember it and remember what it meant is a reminder of our need for repentence and to love God.
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I hear that all the time, but, I have to ask(and sorry to go off topic a bit here), what did he save you from? Would the world have ended if he didn't?
I'm honestly curious, actually. Not trying to belittle Christianity.
Dave did a pretty good job of explaining that. I mirror his statement.
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Seeing it again? The dozen other Jesus movies aren't enough?
There are dozens of other Jesus movies, but those are dozens of Jesus movies that are innacurate and purposefully cntroversial. The passion is one of the most accurate movies portraying Jesus without the modernization and (IMO) stupidity in artistic expression.
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I'm just wondering what this adds to the story of Jesus. Because I've yet to see one person say "this showed Jesus in a whole new light" or "they showed me something I'd never seen before in regards to Jesus", and, from a purely cinematic perspective, if a movie adds nothing, then what's the point?
The other movies (even though they included cruel crucifiction scenes as well) lacked the intensity that expressed Christ's suffering for us. It was all really hollow if you ask me.
And also; I, myself, have had friends say things along the lines of, "This gives me a whole new perspective." They were mostly Theist's and Agnostics. One atheist too.
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As explained before, he was only trying to articulate what Christ went through for us. Of course Christians are the only ones who are going to enjoy it and take a lot from it.
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Yes, therefore it's esoteric.
Nononononono.
Esoteric - Intended for or understood by only a particular group.
Esoteric implies that it's MEANT for only a specific audience and ONLY that audiece. It's MEANT for everyone. It's just very easily forseeable that people who aren't Christians won't get anything from it. Perhaps we're wrong though, and people who aren't Christian will take something from it. *shrug*
There was also no intent for purposeful lack of understanding. Christ's death has been expressed many many times in the past to be important to ALL of us. Expressed and explained in a lot of places. Christians have gotten their point across. It's pretty muh only begun a few years ago to lose bearing and go unheard. This movie didn't imply otherwise. It didn't contain any sort of label that says "Christians only".
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As for Gibson's father, he's made all kinds of insensitive remark the past few months about the Jews. He's said that the holocaust was "exaggerated", that it really wasn't as bad as everyone things, and that the U.S was just being overly sypmathic. The worst blow, however, came when he accused the Jews of conspiring to create a world theocracy, eradicating all other religions. He's even said that 9/11 was a part of this plan(which the Vatican helped execute), and that Al Queda was just the scapegoat.
*shrug* Alls I can is that he better have evidence if he wants to be heard.
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I didn't see much of a "story". Just Gibson running around in blue warpaint hacking people to bits left and right.
You didn't, I did. *shrug*
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And I'm of Scottish descent and a pretty big Mel Gibson fan.
Same here on both counts.
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Quote:
I'm not saying they wouldn't believe it, but how many murderers, theives and crooks live lives of sin, then "repent" on their deathbeds and are, according to scripture, forgiven in the eys of the lord?
God knows for sure if they are truly sorry and HE will be the one to sort them out. Just because they can evade justice on earth and/or be documented as forgiven, it doesn't mean they can evade hell or purgatory.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
To remember it and remember what it meant is a reminder of our need for repentence and to love God.
I can understand that, but I don't I don't understand why seeing extreme violence(especially when someone is normally opposed to it) is necessary to achieve that, since everyone already knows what happened.
I would think that a person could get a much better understanding of Christ's message and mission on Earth through his words and teachings, before(and after) his torture and execution.
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There are dozens of other Jesus movies, but those are dozens of Jesus movies that are innacurate and purposefully cntroversial.
That may be true of some of them, but not all.
Besides, as theologians have noted for centuries, the historical accuracy of the Bible isn't nearly as important as the message in it. The book is fraught with incorrect dates and skewed accounts of events, but the heart of it's message remains regardless.
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The passion is one of the most accurate movies portraying Jesus without the modernization and (IMO) stupidity in artistic expression.
What you call "modernizing", I call "making relevant", and what you call "artistic expression", I call....well....artistic expression. Creativity. Originality.
This is ART, by the way. Critics rate it, consumers pay to see it, it's not like he's giving the production away at local churches.
Like Socrates, Jesus never wrote anything down, so there's not really any one exact way to interpret what he said and did. Millions of Christians interpret Christ's message differently. What harm is there in expressing a personal interpretation through art?
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And also; I, myself, have had friends say things along the lines of, "This gives me a whole new perspective." They were mostly Theist's and Agnostics. One atheist too.
You've had friends tell you that the movie Passion of the Christ gave them "a whole new perspective"?
As in, it converted them? Or what?
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Nononononono.
Esoteric - Intended for or understood by only a particular group.
Esoteric implies that it's MEANT for only a specific audience and ONLY that audiece. It's MEANT for everyone.
That's not what you seem to suggest earlier, when you said:
"It's already been said ad nauseum that the movie is made for Christians and meant only for their benefit of belief and inspiration."
I think it's extremely esoteric. Obviously, Mel Gibson's not going to come out and say "only Christians should go see this movie", but it's pretty clear that there wasn't much else he had in mind when he set about filming it. You even say before:
"I'll bet you good money that the ENTIRETY of those lines consists of Christians"
Don't you think there's a reason for that?
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Continue the discussion of the South Park episode here. Any further discussion of Gibson's movie and the theology involved is moved to here.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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No worse than those threads that lead into Beavis and Butthead-ish doalogues.
There is no version of this where you come out on top. Maybe your army comes, and maybe it’s too much for us, but it’s all on you. Because if we can’t protect the Earth, you can be damn well sure we’ll avenge it.
Hello?
Put Natasha on the phone.
Who is this?
This is her fucking son's father. Who is this?
This is her fucking son.
..........oh.......
Call back in 20 minutes. *click*
Boy, you could get lost in a sky like that. I wish I had those balloons again.
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In other news, I need TP for my bunghole.
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