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Still dead.
Not that I blame him.
If I were married to Courtney Love I'd kill myself to.
now known as rex
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If I was a drama queen that lame I'd want to kill myself as well.
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Interestingly enough, the Seattle Times published the second of a two part series of articles on Kurt Cobain's life. I remember the day his suicide happened when a classmate of mine called me at work telling me about it. She heard it from a DJ at a radio station before the police made it public. But I can't say it totally surprised me when she told me.
"You kind of get tired giving the other team credit. At some point you've got to look in the mirror and say 'I sucked.'"
Alex Rodriguez, after the NY Yankees were eliminated from the 2006 ALDS by the Detroit Tigers.
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Yeah, both Seattle papers have been doing things on him today and the last few days.
The DJ who broke the news was Marty Reimer, who I currently listen to on a regular basis...
Today we drove by Cobain's house, my sister's a huge Nirvana fan. The park next to his house was packed with a bunch of hippies. And an MTV2 film crew. WOOOO
Smells like teen bullshit!
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The ten year anniversary of his death was yesterday, so it makes sense that he's being reported on again...
And that's terrible.
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Who gives a shit?
The world isnt a worse place without him!
Miserable music performed by a miserable man!
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or good music performed by a miserable man, who was later, somehow, granted god-like status.
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
or good music performed by a miserable man, who was later, somehow, granted god-like status.
I agree with this one.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Quote:
Nowhereman said:
Who gives a shit?
The world isnt a worse place without him!
Miserable music performed by a miserable man!
The world also won't be a worse place once the last of your hair bands dies out...forgotten, broke, unwanted and unloved.
Quote:
Bobo Kaufampshen said:
or good music performed by a miserable man, who was later, somehow, granted god-like status.
"He died for us, man!"
What bothers me is that the only thing people ever talk about regarding Kurt is his death. As if he only lived just to die.  
And that's terrible.
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Well, technically, don't we all...?
If John Lennon and Jimi Hendrix are any indication, dying early when you're a rock star is pretty much a coronation in the halls of greatness in the eyes of the fans. Sad, but true.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Janis Joplin and Jim Morrison, too.
Quote:
Well, technically, don't we all...?
"The whole world over, we eat, we shit, we fuck, we kill and we die."
I guess I'm more like The Abbe du Coulmier...
And that's terrible.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
Well, technically, don't we all...?
If John Lennon and Jimi Hendrix are any indication, dying early when you're a rock star is pretty much a coronation in the halls of greatness in the eyes of the fans. Sad, but true.
Johnny Cash, George Harrison and many others lived long lives.
now known as rex
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Quote:
Animalman said:
Well, technically, don't we all...?
If John Lennon and Jimi Hendrix are any indication, dying early when you're a rock star is pretty much a coronation in the halls of greatness in the eyes of the fans. Sad, but true.
I agree with that dying early thing...but Lennon had a very lengthy career before his death....
not that I cared much for his solo crap though.
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Llance is never going to reach Rock God status, then?
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Quote:
rexstardust said:
Quote:
Animalman said:
Well, technically, don't we all...?
If John Lennon and Jimi Hendrix are any indication, dying early when you're a rock star is pretty much a coronation in the halls of greatness in the eyes of the fans. Sad, but true.
Johnny Cash, George Harrison and many others lived long lives.
cash is an exception to the rule. harrison tho, was a lesser star of 4 others, didn't hear of him doing much big beyond the beatles
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He was the first Beatle to get a solo albulm out (I think) which is regarded by some as the best of the Beatles' first solo efforts, but then he had his pick of years worth of songs since he was never able to get many onto Beatles records.
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Quote:
Kristogar Velo said:
Quote:
Nowhereman said:
Who gives a shit?
The world isnt a worse place without him!
Miserable music performed by a miserable man!
The world also won't be a worse place once the last of your hair bands dies out...forgotten, broke, unwanted and unloved.
Didnt say it would,but people wanna elevate a cowardly miserable drug taking suicide victim to god like status,which sucks!
At least hair bands had A)Long life spans & B ) Know music is entertainment,which means fun,not miserable dreary shite which makes you wanna be either angry or depressed.
Grunge & Nirvana were not about being happy so how is that entertainment?
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Quote:
dsoley said:
Quote:
rexstardust said:
Quote:
Animalman said:
Well, technically, don't we all...?
If John Lennon and Jimi Hendrix are any indication, dying early when you're a rock star is pretty much a coronation in the halls of greatness in the eyes of the fans. Sad, but true.
Johnny Cash, George Harrison and many others lived long lives.
cash is an exception to the rule. harrison tho, was a lesser star of 4 others, didn't hear of him doing much big beyond the beatles
The guy didnt believe in recording for recordings sake so he released less stuff,which was generally better quality.
He also owned his own film company (Handmade films) which was responsible for the Monty Python films among others.
Also George was usually the musicians choice as the greatest Beatle.
Oh and how you can say he ranks lower than Ringo Starr is beyond me!
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Quote:
Nowhereman said:
At least hair bands had A)Long life spans & B ) Know music is entertainment,which means fun,not miserable dreary shite which makes you wanna be either angry or depressed.
Grunge & Nirvana were not about being happy so how is that entertainment?
In your opinion, music is supposed to be fun and anything other than fun is a negative deviation.
To me, music is a form of expression, and includes any and all emotions the musician wants to convey. Just like any form of art and entertainment. Some of the greatest movies and paintings of all time are also the darkest and most depressing. By your standards, that sort of thing isn't entertaining, but that's only because you've got a narrower definition than pretty much everybody else in that regard.
I personally think Nirvana's music is extremely entertaining. I also don't get angry or depressed while listening to it, so maybe I'm just weird or something.
And that's terrible.
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you could easily make the argument that nirvana was their days' ramones -- a band going to the extreme of counter culture, in a rebellious form.
the ramones were the answer to goody, clean cut bands.
nirvana was the answer to glamor rock.
most of the music, what little there was, is really good. great poetry. whether you like the beats or not, credit should at least be given to originality and art.
however, my appeal ends there. kobain squandered so much talent, adoration, health... so much of what others would kill for. not to mention a family. to me, any worship of that is faulty.
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Wow, two consecutive Rob-posts in the same thread that I agree with!
No, Nowhereman, Nirvana's music wasn't all happy, but that doesn't mean it didn't have a positive affect on people. You can think I'm corny or lame for saying this, but Kurt's music changed my life. It was the first rock group that I could really relate to in my era. Hearing the pain in his voice was like hearing the pain in my own soul. Belittle that if you want to, but in that way, Nirvana was my generation's Ramones(who were also belittled for similar reasons), as Rob said.
As for worshipping Kurt, I certainly don't worship him as a person. As a musician I hold him in the highest of regard, and I'll be forever thankful for the impact he had on my life...but I'm not obsessive enough to call him a God. He was a person, like everyone else, with serious issues. I'm dissapointed that he left his daughter alone in the world....though, to be honest, I'm starting to warm to the posibility that it wasn't a suicide. Too many of the facts don't seem to fit.
Either way, you'd be hard pressed to find a rock star that didn't have his or her share of fuckups and wrongdoings. You just have to seperate the music from the person.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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P.S-George Harrison is my favorite Beatle and his solo stuff is fabulous.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Quote:
Kristogar Velo said:
Quote:
Nowhereman said:
At least hair bands had A)Long life spans & B ) Know music is entertainment,which means fun,not miserable dreary shite which makes you wanna be either angry or depressed.
Grunge & Nirvana were not about being happy so how is that entertainment?
In your opinion, music is supposed to be fun and anything other than fun is a negative deviation.
To me, music is a form of expression, and includes any and all emotions the musician wants to convey. Just like any form of art and entertainment. Some of the greatest movies and paintings of all time are also the darkest and most depressing. By your standards, that sort of thing isn't entertaining, but that's only because you've got a narrower definition than pretty much everybody else in that regard.
I personally think Nirvana's music is extremely entertaining. I also don't get angry or depressed while listening to it, so maybe I'm just weird or something.
I said music is entertainment & entertain means to make happy!
Now how can miserable music be happy?
Fun & happy are mutually exclusive!
Music & entertainment should be a distraction from the ills of life not wallow in it so we should "relate" to it!
I look at most of these kids today who still wear their Kurt Cobain t-shirts or their Nirvana sweatshirts etc & they all look so moody & start saying shit like "Kurt understood what we are going through!" & stuff like that.
Bullshit,Kurt was just miserable plain & simple & let out all his inner depresion thru his music,he didnt care if it meant it would bring anyone else down to his level,just like he didnt care that by comitting suicide he was leaving behind a wife (ok so she was a bitch from hell),a very young child & any other family members.
All Kurt Cobain cared about was Kurt Cobain!
Music is a huge affecting factor on the youth,we currently have all these kids going round thinking its cool to be ganstas & hanging in gangs because thats what Eminem or NWO tells them its cool in their lyrics.
Grunge was expecially affecting for making a disenfranchised generation who think that nothing any good will come in this world.
I couldnt give two shits that Cobain killed himself,it was probably the best thing he ever did!
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Quote:
Animalman said:
No, Nowhereman, Nirvana's music wasn't all happy, but that doesn't mean it didn't have a positive affect on people. You can think I'm corny or lame for saying this, but Kurt's music changed my life. It was the first rock group that I could really relate to in my era. Hearing the pain in his voice was like hearing the pain in my own soul. Belittle that if you want to, but in that way, Nirvana was my generation's Ramones(who were also belittled for similar reasons), as Rob said.
I'm not belittling you but this is my point,we have all felt pain in our soul,but the Nirvana generation always seemed to think theirs was so much worse.
The thing with the Ramones was they were always upbeat,they rebelled but didnt sink to depression & trying to bring other people down.
If you are "relating" to music it means its making you think more about the pain in your soul where it should be trying to relieve that pain!
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Quote:
I'm not belittling you but this is my point,we have all felt pain in our soul,but the Nirvana generation always seemed to think theirs was so much worse.
Well, I can't speak for everyone, but I don't think my pain is worse than those of previous generations. Kids do have a tendency to overdramatize things, though. I was/am certainly guilty of that.
I think it's kind of silly to compare pain, because just about every generation looks down on the one that came right after it and says "you have it so easy and you don't even know it". It's the same thing with Americans and the way they look down on immigrants. A boat of people come to land and claim it as their own, then resent the second boat of people. The second boat of people come to the same land and claim it as theirs, then resent the third boat of people. The third boat of people come to land and claim it as thiers, then resent the fourth boat of people.
And on and on and on....
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The thing with the Ramones was they were always upbeat,they rebelled but didnt sink to depression & trying to bring other people down.
I guess I just don't see that in their music. Maybe by comparison to the glamrock bands of the late 70s and early 80s it's a real downer, but I find stuff like Pink Floyd's "The Wall" to be a lot more depressing. The Ramones had some downbeat songs, too, like 53rd and 3rd. Even the Rolling Stones in their day had a lot of songs about drug addiction and bad trips, like Gimme Shelter.
I interpret their "message" as more indifference than depression. The analogy I mentioned above plays a part in this, the way everyone seems to think they're best and that they've suffered more. The truth of the matter is, however, that you're always going to find someone who's gone through more shit than you, someone who's had to overcome more hardships than you, so there's no point in moping about it. It doesn't matter.
That's what I think of when I listen to their music. I don't see any "woe is me" whiny stuff. That's not in the lyrics.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Quote:
Nowhereman said:
I said music is entertainment & entertain means to make happy!
Now how can miserable music be happy?
Fun & happy are mutually exclusive!
“Entertaining” is subjective. Once again, it’s only your definition that to be entertaining means to be fun and happy.
Obviously, that’s not everybody’s definition. It’s not my definition. I think movies are entertainment, and there are tons of movies that aren’t fun and happy. Donnie Darko, Rocky Horror Picture Show, A Clockwork Orange, etc. They’re not all fun and happy(well, opinions can vary on Rocky Horror, but I think that movie’s primary purpose was making people uncomfortable), but they’re among the most entertaining movies of all-time. Music’s the same way, to me. There’s not just one way or one emotion for music to be entertaining. It can be entertaining without being happy or fun.
You really went off on a tangent after this...firstly, I've said this before many times, I don't believe Kurt killed himself. But more importantly, I really don't get how you can criticize his fans for their interpretation of his music and life, while you go off on about what Kurt cared or didn't care about. How do you know so much about him and what his personal feelings were?
And that's terrible.
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One,I fucking hate conspiracy theories,two he killed himself & left a daughter behind,thats how I know he was a selfish,drug taking prick who couldnt handle life!
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Oh & just for the record I'd like to know how much personal pain & suffering you've endured as an 12 year old?
My life started shit & it still aint exactly great,you dont see me wallowing in self pity,doing drugs & killing myself,but what it has done is given me a strong insite into what does & doesnt motivate people.
Cobain was weak,pure & simple!
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Quote:
en·ter·tain·ment ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ntr-tnmnt)
n.
1.The act of entertaining.
2.The art or field of entertaining.
3.Something that amuses, pleases, or diverts, especially a performance or show.
4.The pleasure afforded by being entertained; amusement: The comedian performed for our entertainment.
5.Archaic. Maintenance; support.
6.Obsolete. Employment.
Please look at the definition of "Entertainment" from Websters dictionary.
Take particular note of points 3 & 4.
At no point does it mention relating to or drawing attention to,it does say diverting though.
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Sigh...it ain't a theory. Here are some facts:
1) A guy claimed that, a week or so prior to Kurt's death, he was hired by Courtney to kill Kurt. After he came forward with this information, he himself was assassinated.
2) The heroin that was in Kurt's body when it was found was several times that of a lethal dose. Had he really shot that much into himself, he wouldn't even be capable of lifting a gun, much less firing one.
3) The supposed "suicide note" doesn't come across as a suicide note at all, but rather a note explaining why he's quitting music and divorcing his wife. The only time it comes across as a suicide note is the very last line, which is written in different handwriting than the rest of the note.
The main reason this was never investigated was because people were like you, and didn't fucking care about Kurt because he was just some guy who had problems with depression and drugs. It "makes sense" that he killed himself, and nobody wanted any other explanation.
Seriously, there's a great documentary about this called "Kurt and Courtney." And they must have had something right, because Courtney herself tried to bribe them from making the movie(much like Vince McMahon did with Wrestling With Shadows).
I didn't want to get so in-depth about this, because like I said, it bothers me that nobody seems capable of ever talking about Cobain unless they're talking about his death.
And that's terrible.
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Kristogar's twelve?!?
I was never huge into Nirvana (I liked Soundgarden and Alice in Chains a LOT more), but I do see where he would be considered a major influence on today's music. I lost a lot of respect for him when I found out he killed himself. I agree with Rob - it was a gutless and selfish thing to do.
After years of listening to the depressing world of grunge, though, the "butt-rock" (hair-bands, glam-rock, california Metal Scene, or whatever you wanna call it) that Nowhereman listens to and I grew up on is a welcome change a lot of the time. Sure, it's shallow. Sure, the main message is "have fun, forget about your problems, and let's ROCK!!!". But isn't that almost what people need right now?
Besides, Motley Crue's stuff up to "Dr. Feelgood" rocks harder and kicks more ass than roughly three-quarters of the crap that's out there now...
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Quote:
Nowhereman said:
Quote:
en·ter·tain·ment ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ntr-tnmnt)
n.
1.The act of entertaining.
2.The art or field of entertaining.
3.Something that amuses, pleases, or diverts, especially a performance or show.
4.The pleasure afforded by being entertained; amusement: The comedian performed for our entertainment.
5.Archaic. Maintenance; support.
6.Obsolete. Employment.
Please look at the definition of "Entertainment" from Websters dictionary.
Take particular note of points 3 & 4.
At no point does it mention relating to or drawing attention to,it does say diverting though.
I don't see how that's different from what I'm saying. It's all subjective. What's "pleasing" to some people won't necessarily be pleasing to you(take, for instance, mentioning Batman & Robin around Grimm). Yeah, entertainment is a diversion. That sounds broad enough to include any type of emotion put across by the entertainment.
And that's terrible.
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They arent facts!
I could say I was hired to kill him,then be run down tomorrow,but that soesnt make it fact.
As for the note,as a lyricist,he would be highly unlikely to write a straight forward note especially as he was a depressive!
As for the heroin,it doesnt tale imediate effect plus he would have developed a higher tolerence level as a repeat user!
Once again its all just ifs & buts & people grasping at straws just like every guy who knows how JFK was killed or how the USA faked the moon landing!
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Quote:
Kristogar Velo said:
Quote:
Nowhereman said:
Quote:
en·ter·tain·ment ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ntr-tnmnt)
n.
1.The act of entertaining.
2.The art or field of entertaining.
3.Something that amuses, pleases, or diverts, especially a performance or show.
4.The pleasure afforded by being entertained; amusement: The comedian performed for our entertainment.
5.Archaic. Maintenance; support.
6.Obsolete. Employment.
Please look at the definition of "Entertainment" from Websters dictionary.
Take particular note of points 3 & 4.
At no point does it mention relating to or drawing attention to,it does say diverting though.
I don't see how that's different from what I'm saying. It's all subjective. What's "pleasing" to some people won't necessarily be pleasing to you(take, for instance, mentioning Batman & Robin around Grimm). Yeah, entertainment is a diversion. That sounds broad enough to include any type of emotion put across by the entertainment.
So you find thinking about how badly life sucks as entertaining?
Doesnt sound diverting,amusing or pleasing to me!
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Quote:
Nowhereman said:
Oh & just for the record I'd like to know how much personal pain & suffering you've endured as an 12 year old?
It would be just for the record because it has absolutely NO relevance and I have not once brought myself into this conversation. I'm not the one who's asinine enough to try to speak on Kurt's behalf here.
Last edited by Kristogar Velo; 2004-04-07 10:51 PM.
And that's terrible.
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Quote:
Nowhereman said:
So you find thinking about how badly life sucks as entertaining?
Doesnt sound diverting,amusing or pleasing to me!
Much like Animalman, I've always found Nirvana and grunge to be more about indifference to the "American dream," and the alienation from the older generation who don't understand the indifference.
But I know lots of people who find wallowing in their misery as entertaining. It's not YOUR opinion, which is what I've been saying all along! What is entertaining, amusing, diverting, whatever, differs from person to person.
And that's terrible.
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 47,810 Likes: 2
Hip To Be Square 15000+ posts
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Hip To Be Square 15000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 47,810 Likes: 2 |
Sorry but every time someone posts something negative about him you feel the need to defend him,so who is the one being assinine?
And the reason I mentioned the pain & suffering bit is that when you have felt some,you get a better perspective on others pain & something as you can relate better,but you obviously decided to just overlook that point!
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,142
5000+ posts
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5000+ posts
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,142 |
Quote:
Nowhereman said:
They arent facts!
I could say I was hired to kill him,then be run down tomorrow,but that soesnt make it fact.
Read closely. I said the fact was that this guy stepped forward with his claim, then himself was mysteriously murdered. That IS a fact.
Quote:
As for the heroin,it doesnt tale imediate effect plus he would have developed a higher tolerence level as a repeat user!
"Kurt's blood contained 1.52 ml of morphine per litre, which is more than twice the fatal dose even for a heroin addict who has built up a certain tolerance to the drug. According to J.J.Platt's study Cobain's morphine level would be 75 times the lethal dose for a non-user. Even if Kurt did survive this overdose, he would have never been able to roll down his sleeve, put his drug paraphernaelia away neatly, pick up the shotgun put it in his mouth and pull the trigger."
So there ya go. I got that just now from this site, but the same information is on thousands of others.
And that's terrible.
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,142
5000+ posts
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5000+ posts
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,142 |
Quote:
Nowhereman said:
Sorry but every time someone posts something negative about him you feel the need to defend him,so who is the one being assinine?
Whaa...? Apparently you haven't noticed all the times he gets slammed on this board that I DON'T respond. rexstardust insults him every time he mentions him, and I don't reply to him when he does it. In fact, I started on this thread talking about what music and entertainment is, and far as I can see, I've only just now gone away from that because you started ranting about his suicide, so I just said that I don't believe he did kill himself, and wondered how you could speak so familiarly of him(notice, I don't...I'm using research and evidence to decide whether I believe he committed suicide, not just some half-baked assumptions on what he felt like his entire life).
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And the reason I mentioned the pain & suffering bit is that when you have felt some,you get a better perspective on others pain & something as you can relate better,but you obviously decided to just overlook that point!
I'm not trying to delve into other people's pain, though. That's actually the opposite of what I'm doing. I'm pointing out that you trying to speak on behalf of Nirvana and grunge fans everywhere is really lame.
And actually, I have had some shitty stuff happen in my short life. I even listed some when I first made that post, then decided that it was none of your fucking business, so I edited them out. I don't think that just because I've had some fucked up things happen to me that I can speak on anybody else's behalf. Really, should I be able to say something about you, just because we've both had some bad things happen to us? I wonder how you'd feel if I suddenly told everybody what your motivation and inner thoughts are, and refused to believe that I could possibly be wrong in my evaluation.
And that's terrible.
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 18,080
He tastes of America 15000+ posts
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He tastes of America 15000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 18,080 |
Why isn't MOTA posting in here? 
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