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By JANIE McCAULEY, AP Sports Writer
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- Barry Bonds has sought Willie Mays' approval ever since he was old enough to tag along with his godfather in the San Francisco Giants' clubhouse. Six MVPs, a single-season record 73 home runs, and countless other accomplishments never felt like quite enough.
Hitting his 660th homer to tie Mays for third place on the career list has done the trick.
Bonds hit a towering three-run shot Monday that splashed into McCovey Cove, sending the Giants to a 7-5 win over the Milwaukee Brewers.
``It was like a weight was just lifted off my shoulders,'' Bonds said. ``I felt a sense of accomplishment in baseball. It's a relief now to be able to stand next to my godfather and finally feel like I've accomplished something in the game of baseball. It was a big way of getting his approval that I've finally done something.''
Bonds connected in the fifth inning on a 3-1 pitch from Matt Kinney (0-1) for his second homer of the season. The estimated 442-foot blast put the Giants ahead 5-4. It was the 28th time Bonds has homered into the water.
The 39-year-old Bonds was greeted at home by several teammates and he stepped on the plate, raised both hands in the air and pointed to the sky.
Mays, who turns 73 next month, hurried to congratulate Bonds, giving his godson a hug and a kiss outside the dugout. Mays presented him with a torch decorated with 25 tiny diamonds, symbolic of the number Bonds wears. They both carried the torch before the 2002 Olympics.
Bonds came back out of the dugout and waved to the fans in each direction as they cheered, ``Barry! Barry!'' and gave him a standing ovation. The sellout crowd of 42,548 seemed to forget about the steroid controversy surrounding their star slugger and his personal trainer.
``The fans appreciate a good baseball player,'' manager Felipe Alou said. ``I know some guys were booing, but they love the guy.''
Children along the left-field wall bowed to Bonds when he came out to play the field in the top of the sixth. A banner of Bonds was unfurled from the light tower to the left side of the main center-field scoreboard to match one of Mays on the other side.
``I think this is probably the icing on the cake,'' Bonds said. ``I really wish my dad could have been here to be part of it. ... I just really can't believe it, being 4 years old when my dad came up into the major leagues and having an idol like Willie Mays take me under his wing, and now being up in front of all of you people answering questions what it's like to tie the man you respected and honored your entire life.''
Mays has been a mentor to Bonds since the slugger's father, Bobby, died last August.
Hank Aaron leads the career list with 755 home runs, followed by Babe Ruth with 714.
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"I know some guys were booing..."
BOOOOOOO!
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Wait until August when the Andro wears off...
"You kind of get tired giving the other team credit. At some point you've got to look in the mirror and say 'I sucked.'"
Alex Rodriguez, after the NY Yankees were eliminated from the 2006 ALDS by the Detroit Tigers.
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is barry bonds the most accomplished, unloved guy in all of sports?
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To his credit, in the press conference afterwards he skillfully side-stepped the questioners attempts at baiting him into comparing himself to Ruth, Aaron and Mays, saying that each has their accomplishments that they can look at with pride and that was all that mattered.
Also, later in the game, when the opposing team's outfielder dropped a pop-fly, he hustled in to 2nd base, which would go against the commonly used case against him that he never runs for pop-outs.
I agree that generally the media seems to really dislike him, but I have a hard time believing(after all the standing ovations) that he's anything but loved by the Giants fans. Incidentally, the fan that got the ball out of the water decided to give it back to Bonds, so no court case this time.
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It's my understanding from past ariticles that the animosity that surrounds Bonds' relationship with the media stems from the general disdain he holds towards them. Once he figured out that he needed to repair that relationship if he ever wanted to win MVP he because fairly tolerable after that. Belting 73 dingers probably helped as well.
He's still a hard autograph to get though. If you're an adult, forget it. He pretty much just gives it to kids.
"You kind of get tired giving the other team credit. At some point you've got to look in the mirror and say 'I sucked.'"
Alex Rodriguez, after the NY Yankees were eliminated from the 2006 ALDS by the Detroit Tigers.
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Bonds won MVPs in the early '90s, so his relationship with the media doesn't matter a whole lot there(like it did with Ted Williams getting screwed out of the award a few times). I really don't think his relationship is better today, and it's damn near impossible to find a media member who doesn't think he's the de facto MVP, regardless of what Sosa or Pujols do.
That said, I agree with Gob here. I hate to say it, but...O.J.'s got more love and support from the public. So does Kobe. And Barry didn't even do anything!
And that's terrible.
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Well, he was disliked long before those accusations gained steam...
And that's terrible.
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i dunno, i remember him being held in high regard when he was in his early years with the pirates, i think after the roids started causing all the moodyness is when he got the bad rap.....
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His bad rap started with the Pirates, it's why he didn't win the MVP(or a spot on the All-Star team) in '91, despite having far better numbers than Terry Pendleton. The writers basically decided they were going to vote against him, and they did.
Bonds just hit number 661. Crushed one off of Ben Ford.
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that wasnt a case of the writers not liking bonds as it was pendleton was media boy......
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"is barry bonds the most accomplished, unloved guy in all of sports?"
Probably. But he courts it. He does little to lessen his dark image.
The 'roids controversy will continue to follow him.
The "passing the torch" with Mays the other day looked awful. I felt bad for Willie. And then they posed...posed...for the cameras. I just didn't care for it.
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"I know some guys were booing..."
SOME guys,Barry?Try half the population of North America.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
The "passing the torch" with Mays the other day looked awful. I felt bad for Willie. And then they posed...posed...for the cameras. I just didn't care for it.
It did seem a bit forced, but it was Willie's idea. At least Bonds didn't say "I am now the greatest of all time" ala Rickey Henderson(not that I have anything against Rickey, I love the guy).
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i just think barry gives off this continual arrogance that has cheesed off fans for years. interviews, comments, actions, gameplay... he exudes it.
unoffical baseball embassidors are famed for downplaying their skills... or at least emphasizing their competition's.
big mac went for the hr record, and would compliment roger maris daily. downplay his own abilities and nulify the event.
sammy sosa goes right up there for 60 several years in a row. the "braggingest" thing he'd do is smile.
cal ripken breaks a national record, and tries to just shrug it off.
guys like mickey mantle, willie mays, and even hank aaron shared the same "dont worry about me" outlook. roger maris had to be forced out of the dugout for his 61st curtain call.
all without the help of modern day "medicine"
and, in turn, fans love them. or at least respect them. some more than others, obviously, but all in the same ballpark.
barry, on the other hand, throws his hands up in the self-congradulating air after every home run he hits. his comments make his accomplishments sound so much more important than the sport. his arrogance is exuded thru every aspect of his game.
its hard to cheer for barry when he beats you to it.
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Animalman said:
At least Bonds didn't say "I am now the greatest of all time" ala Rickey Henderson(not that I have anything against Rickey, I love the guy).
 Greatest. Speech. Ever.
And that's terrible.
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I hope he comes back. I can't imagine baseball without him.
....literally. He's that old.
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Bonds is an enigma. I like to believe that, as a person, on an individual basis, he is okay. But he does give arrogance, and he cries foul a lot. Not just to the media, but to the fans--to anybody. He acts like the loneliest man on the face of the world, and a victim, and a lot of it is his own doing. There are people like this in every sport.
Owens, who was with the 49ers. Also Randy Moss and Keyshawn Johnson. When you place your own ego and abilities above that of the team, then you alienate yourself. Supposed to use those talents to inspire and motivate other players to work harder. Guys don't do that much anymore. Instead of showing by example, it is demeaning teammates and getting in fights. This is not entirely new, but with more teams in each sport, (30 as compared to 16 or 20-something), then you are going to see more frustration as all the guys try to go for those coveted wins and rare championship rings.
And Bonds? He talks about being a Nigger in a world of Jews where the man won't pay him his due. Using words like that is liable to set off tension. Rocker didn't do too well, and Bonds gets by, because he comes up with great accomplishments and other controversy.
He will tell players from other teams to leave town "Rolen and Lieberthal are stars, they shouldn't be playing in Philly" said something about Schilling too. He opens his mouth to the media to give his feelings on something, and when someone else does the same?
"Man, you don't need to do that. You got something to say, you can say it to me. Don't use the media. Just come to me." Now that is a fucking hypocrite. I heard him say that sooo many times. Most recently comes when Turk Wendell and others were making suggestions that maybe his homers were not all due to his "natural" strength.
Thing that bothered me the most was what he said last year. Brought up his accomplishments, and how once he hit 714 he didn't want to hear anyone mentioning Babe Ruth. He was like "Forget Ruth, man."
Now that is fucking disrespect. I wrote a letter to the SF Giants and also Bonds overpaid agent, letting them know that the talented prima donna had no respect for the sport or its history. It would help if he read books.
In this world, there are 3 sports superstars.
The biggest, and most recent, is Michael Jordan. Nike and the Olympics helped him. I am sure he had deals with foreign companies as well, but I know Nike.
Decades before, there was Cassius Clay/Mohammad Ali, great fighter, activist. Oustpoken, and people knew him in both hemispheres, regardless of race and religion.
But the first, the first sports superstar was Ruth. American celebrity. You know all the stories. Got people to attend games just to see some guy hit the ball out of the park. Big fellow. Chunky. Good pitcher too. .341 lifetime average. Respect what made the game popular.
Words not violence, break the silence. Maybe.
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Soy un perdedor said:
In this world, there are 3 sports superstars.
In this country, you mean.
Go most other places and you'll probably find more people that know of David Beckham than of Babe Ruth or Ali.
Go to South America and I doubt you'll find more than a couple of people who don't know who Pele is. Certainly a lot more than those who know Jordan, Ruth or Ali.
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Those are athletes who have trancended their sports. World leaders would want to meet Ali. I can't think of anyone right now who can lay claim to that.
"You kind of get tired giving the other team credit. At some point you've got to look in the mirror and say 'I sucked.'"
Alex Rodriguez, after the NY Yankees were eliminated from the 2006 ALDS by the Detroit Tigers.
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"He was like "Forget Ruth, man'."
In some ways, though, you almost gotta agree with that. The Babe's biggest contribution to baseball was salvaging it after the Black Sox Scandal. Babe was a great player, no doubt (because he also won 20 games twice). But he never faced the truly best players. He played against no Blacks. No Latins. There were fewer types of pitches for him to have to learn to hit. And speeds were much slower. And there was no relief pitching. He was a fat guy with spindly legs.
We gotta stop glamorizing the Babe.
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i wonder if you'd feel similarly were ruth part of the red machine? while the commentary on babe's timespan is certainly true, it was also true for the hundreds of other players who lived and played in that generation. and yet, only one of them hit the home runs, collected the triple crown, won the pennants, etc. ruth was larger in life -- and not just because of his belly. it should be noted he was pretty athletic and in-shape for most of his career, and only put on extra pounds towards the end. ruth is idolized because he stood out to an extreme -- as if sammy sosa played in a little league division. the years he hit 50+, not a single other team combined to hit that many. by statistics comparison, thats barry bonds hitting 300 home runs this season. ... which he just might be able to, if he could get back to his trainer 
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Ruth actually stole home ten times in his career. Anybody recall Bonds doing that? 
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Ruth also didn't have the benefit of the medical advancements we have today. There was no "rehab", no major surgeries. There were no big training facilities where he could spend the winter working out. There also weren't any(or not nearly as many) performance enhancing drugs, or any rules against spitballs or other ball-doctoring.
In 1920, when Babe Ruth had his first 50 homer season, hitting 54, the guy who finished 2nd("Gorgeous" George Sisler)....hit 19. When he retired in 1935 with 714 homers, the next closest player at the time was Jimmie Foxx, with 302.
His being idolized wasn't as much based on the fact that Ruth was a great baseball player as it was on the fact that he was so much better than everyone else in his time. His accomplishments truly did dwarf those of his contemporaries.
Is he better than Barry Bonds? No, probably not. But I have little doubt that if he played in this era he would still be a great, great player.
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Also, to touch on something else JJ mentioned, I think its' really interesting to hear some of the accounts of how hard certain pitchers threw back then. Some might be folklore, legends, but nearly every pitcher or player of his era swears Smokey Joe Wood could hit triple digits. There were no radar guns, but scouts did have a way of measuring ballspeed: they would race a pitch against a motorcycle.
On this same subject, one of my favorite players is Steve Dalkowski, who never reached the majors but is still a legend to most hardcore baseball fans because of his fastball that was once estimated at 110 mph. Ted Williams once faced him in a spring training game and said "I never saw the first pitch".
Dalkowski was the model for "Nuke" Laloosh, as writer/director Ron Shelton played on the same minor league team as him.
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
i wonder if you'd feel similarly were ruth part of the red machine?
Dunno. Cos he wasn't. Do you toss Ruth props because his great years were in the Bronx?
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Animalman said:
Ruth also didn't have the benefit of the medical advancements we have today. There was no "rehab", no major surgeries. There were no big training facilities where he could spend the winter working out.
His being idolized wasn't as much based on the fact that Ruth was a great baseball player as it was on the fact that he was so much better than everyone else in his time. His accomplishments truly did dwarf those of his contemporaries.
You mean dwarfing his all-white contemporaries.
And regarding surgeries, winter ball, rehab, the advancement of conditioning...at least these advances do not notice what color a player is...
For me, Ruth's numbers will always be tainted because of the Segregation of the period.
Sorry.
Jim
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Animalman said:
On this same subject, one of my favorite players is Steve Dalkowski, who never reached the majors but is still a legend to most hardcore baseball fans because of his fastball that was once estimated at 110 mph. Ted Williams once faced him in a spring training game and said "I never saw the first pitch".
Dalkowski was the model for "Nuke" Laloosh, as writer/director Ron Shelton played on the same minor league team as him.
I love hearing stories about this guy. There's one in Ron Luciano's second book, Strike Two. I really wish he got to play in the majors for at least one game.
What I'd really like is for someone to compare stories about Sidd Finch next to Dalkowski, and see which ones people tend to believe... 
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For those too lazy to open the link, here are some of the amazing feats Kalkowski is attributed with: Quote:
One night at Kingsport, Dalkowski threw a pitch that tore off part of a batter's ear. "It made me so scared, I didn't even want to look at it," said Dalkowski. Many people believe after this incident Dalkowski feared one of errant pitches would kill someone and that only contributed more to his wildness.
Dalkowski won a $5 bet with teammate Herman Starrette, who said Dalkowski couldn't throw a baseball through a wall. Dalkowski warmed up and then moved 15 feet away from the wooden outfield fence. His first pitch went right through the boards.
In one minor league game, Dalkowski threw three pitches that penetrated the backstop and sent fans scattering.
In a high school game, Dalkowski threw a no-hit, no-run game with 18 strikeouts and 18 walks.
In an Eastern League game, Dalkowski struck out 27 and walked 16 while throwing 283 pitches. In another game, he was pulled in the second inning after throwing 120 pitches.
At Aberdeen in the Northern League, Dalkowski threw a one-hitter and lost 9-8.
In 1960 at Class A Stockton, Dalkowski threw a pitch that broke an umpire's mask in three places, knocking him 18 feet back and sending him to a hospital for three days with a concussion.
In 1959, Dalkowski set a Northern League record with 21 strikeouts in a game.
In 1960 at Stockton on the California League, Dalkowski struck out 19 and limited Reno to four hits but walked nine and lost 8-3
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Do you toss Ruth props because his great years were in the Bronx?
not at all.
admittedly, i'm not that bigga ruth fan. my two big yankee favorites are mattingly and mantle. mebbe some room for dimaggio.
i honestly don't really reflect ever on ruth being a yankee. i mean, of course, he is, but... its not something that really comes to mind. frankly, its difficult to think of him as a ballplayer! the only footage you ever really see is so ancient, its like a different world.
rather, i give props to ruth simply because he's earned them. stats and legends are hard to ignore.
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
You mean dwarfing his all-white contemporaries.
For me, Ruth's numbers will always be tainted because of the Segregation of the period.
seems a bit odd to judge on that basis. its not like it was ruth's fault.
why so low on the white population? i think white baseball players have pretty much held their own for quite some time. assuming black and latin players were playing back then, there's no reason to believe it would have made the tremendous difference in ruth you think it would have.
in 60 years, if the MLB has hundreds of women players, or there's a huge asian "invasion," you can't really hold that against player's of today's game, just because they didn't compete against them.
ruth was infinitely superior to all of his major league contemporaries. a superiority differential that has yet to be equalled by any one, with or without racial boundaries.
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
And regarding surgeries, winter ball, rehab, the advancement of conditioning...at least these advances do not notice what color a player is...
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"seems a bit odd to judge on that basis. its not like it was ruth's fault."
I'm not blaming him or laying fault at his door, with the fact of Segregation. But it's just that MLB was not open to every potentially great ballplayer. Even a New Yawker like you's gotta see that, Robbie. Ruth did not compete on a complete playing field. If everyone back in 1920 could have played MLB based on their talent, THEN we'd have a what I think is more complete picture of Ruth's abilities.
There's no doubt that Ruth's statistics are outstanding and HoF worthy and all that. But I can't overlook the culture of the period in which Ruth played.
"why so low on the white population?"
Robbie, that's a dumb remark and you know it. I am not "low" on the whites. I am simply (but obviously not simply enough) saying that two other populations of ballplayers--the Blacks and the Latins--were actively kept out of the competition.
Jim
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I think I see where you're coming from, but I hope you can see how your word-choice might give a different impression. It seems like you're holding Ruth personally responsible for the social circumstances of his era. Furthermore(I can't speak for Rob but my initial reaction was similar to Rob's comment), it seems like you're suggesting that, had their not been racial segregation in sports, Ruth wouldn't or couldn't have performed as well as he did.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
But it's just that MLB was not open to every potentially great ballplayer. Even a New Yawker like you's gotta see that, Robbie.
quite true.
but thats a truth that remains in today's game, allbeit of a different variety. in your book, that should seemingly nullify any star's accomplishments.
Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
"why so low on the white population?"
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Robbie, that's a dumb remark and you know it.
i apologize for my stupidity.
but i simply don't see the strength in stressing the segregation to the degree of removing ruth's achievements.
to expand a bit further...
whose to say that in the 20s and 30s all that many blacks and latinos could have played in the majors (segregation aside, of course). even if half of the negro league players were good enough to play in the majors, how many would have been stars? super stars?
then, beyond who could have played in the majors, it should be fair to question who would. would black or latin or asian or female competitors have wanted to play in the majors back then?
for example, latin players have been accepted in the majors for decades, yet they've really only become prominent, and noticeably so, in the past 5-10 years.
the 50s, 60s, 70s, and even the 80s didn't feature that many latin stars, at all. perhaps american baseball simply wasn't a big interest for them in the 60s -- its probable that would hold true 40 years prior to that.
then, after all that, even if the number of super star minorities is astounding, ...how greatly would that diminish ruth's individual stats?
granted, its hard to argue, since the unfortunate laws and rules of the time period wont allow us to know. but, still, its odd to hold all those "ifs" and speculated calculations against a player.
as said, women and/or asian players could dominate american baseball 50 years from now, and i'd think it just as unfair to lower the status of barry bonds or sammy sosa, simply because they didn't get an opportunity to compete with the new league.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
I think I see where you're coming from, but I hope you can see how your word-choice might give a different impression. It seems like you're holding Ruth personally responsible for the social circumstances of his era. Furthermore(I can't speak for Rob but my initial reaction was similar to Rob's comment), it seems like you're suggesting that, had their not been racial segregation in sports, Ruth wouldn't or couldn't have performed as well as he did.
I am not blaming Ruth. How any of you get that from what I said just mystifies me. I never said that Ruth kept Blacks or Latins out of the game. I have no clue what Ruth's feelings on racial segregation were.
Nor did I say that, without a doubt, Ruth would never had made his accomplishments. However, it is UNDENIABLE FACT that Ruth did not play in an MLB that was integrated. Hank Aaron broke Ruth's record in a racially integrated MLB. I have a helluva lot of respect for that. Given the steroid shadow that's cast over Bonds, I would diminish his accomplishments, too.
Ruth's role as an historical figure cannot be denied, nor can his accomplishments be swept away (I never suggested they should be...I just am just thinking that they should be looked at in the appropriate context). Bonds's should be, too.
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"the 50s, 60s, 70s, and even the 80s didn't feature that many latin stars, at all. perhaps american baseball simply wasn't a big interest for them in the 60s -- its probable that would hold true 40 years prior to that."
Or it's just that it took awhile for them to get integrated.
Guess you're forgetting guys like Roberto Clemente, Juan Marichal, Luis Apparichio (sp?), Dave Concepcion, Fernando Valenzuela...
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cobra kai 15000+ posts
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
However, it is UNDENIABLE FACT that Ruth did not play in an MLB that was integrated. Hank Aaron broke Ruth's record in a racially integrated MLB.
hank aaron also never had a year with 50 hrs. he never had to compete with ichiro suzuki. he never had to face lindsey graham. 15 of his seasons had 8 extra games.
you could go on and on with any player, nitpicking and classifying what they face.
if thats what you refer to as "looking at in the appropriate context" then thats cool. nothing wrong with that. but it should be noted that could hold true for any player, which'd, essentially, put them on the same playing field.
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Jim Jackson said:
Guess you're forgetting guys like Roberto Clemente, Juan Marichal, Luis Apparichio (sp?), Dave Concepcion, Fernando Valenzuela...
i'm not forgetting them. i'm pointing out that 5 names over 40 years of elligibility isn't a huge impact (also something that didn't come into play for hank aaron)
scaling a similar percentage back to the 20s, and odds are, you'd see a similar impact.
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Jim Jackson said:
I am not blaming Ruth. How any of you get that from what I said just mystifies me. I never said that Ruth kept Blacks or Latins out of the game. I have no clue what Ruth's feelings on racial segregation were.
Nor did I say that, without a doubt, Ruth would never had made his accomplishments. However, it is UNDENIABLE FACT that Ruth did not play in an MLB that was integrated.
I know that's not what you're saying. My point was only that your word choice gave a somewhat harsh, overcritical impression of Ruth. Saying stuff like "he never faced the truly best players", and that his accomplishments would forever be "tainted". Those aren't facts, they're opinions, and fairly negative ones.
I think the only way a player's accomplishments can or should be tainted(and again, I think that's a poor choice of words) is if they broke the rules to achieve them. Ruth didn't do that. Now, obviously, historical context should affect how they're viewed....but that's true for everyone, in every sport. There isn't an athlete out there that's accomplishments can't be over or underrated based on certain factors.
Some players get benefit of calls(Michael Jordan's famous pushoffs, Barry Bonds having borderline strikes called as balls, etc), others the benefit of the place they play in(any Colorado Rockie will undoubtedly have their stats undervalued due to the thin air; Mike Piazza's homer record should be considered an amazing stat, given the pitchers parks he's played in throughout his career).
Rule changes, international scouting, emphasis on weight training, the list goes on.
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On the stealing home thing:
How many pitchers knew to watch for that? How many people even thought of it before Ruth?
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