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For those of you who don't pay attention to warnings in thread titles...
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The Atom?! The mother-fucking Atom?! I mean, I know he knows the secrets of all the various Leaguers, but... how? Why?
I'm not sure I buy the mind-swapping theory. It seems too convenient and too... well, dumb. Although, it seems Meltzer is going back to previous stories. Could he have not been switched over when the rest of the League was in that mind-swapping misadventure mentioned in a previous issue? If so, he would have been mindwiped like the rest of them were... but why go about pretending to be a hero for all those years? Just to gather information?
It seems a bit far-fetched to me.
At any rate, I'm hooked. Can't wait to see what Meltzer's going to do to wrap this one up...
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I just read it, and my mind is blown. I've seen the theories about the Atom (and about Jean, too, for that matter) online, but I'm still not sure I buy it yet. If they do go through with this it will be the ballsiest move they've made in a long time.
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The idea makes sense to me. The Atom is a well-known third tier character like Elongated Man. Once every five years or so the character is given a run on a title, and each time the title has failed. Changing the character by giving him a loin cloth and a sword didn't work, and neither did giving him super strength and making him broody. The character's origin has dated badly, and his powers are very limited. The only real appeal to the character is with long time fans.
Meltzer was probably told that he could kill off the Atom by DC's editors, but instead chose to make him the villain of the piece.
If DC are willing to (temporarily) make Green Lantern a villain, then surely the Atom is a no-brainer. The character would again become relevant: a close friend of Hawkman's (and I understand a supporting character in the new Hawkman book), and a former member of the JLA during the golden days of the Satellite Years, has gone rogue - worse, murderous. This raises the possibility of exploring serious repercussions on other characters.
The only issue really is why the Atom has gone off the rails. I think "mind control" is a bad, bad plot device. I'd like to think Meltzer has something more clever in mind.
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And, they got to Batman. The idea that the once-team-friendly character that suddenly spun into the dark-brooding-loner did so due to subconscious manipulations by the League........incredible. Brilliant. I sincerely hope there is a raw, heartbreaking, ass-kicking, League-fracturing end for all of this. And maybe....maybe.....the need for all new secret identities? Or, will they mindwipe the Atom to clean hiim up? Can't wait.... 
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Quote:
Dave said:
The idea makes sense to me. The Atom is a well-known third tier character like Elongated Man. Once every five years or so the character is given a run on a title, and each time the title has failed. Changing the character by giving him a loin cloth and a sword didn't work, and neither did giving him super strength and making him broody. The character's origin has dated badly, and his powers are very limited. The only real appeal to the character is with long time fans.
Meltzer was probably told that he could kill off the Atom by DC's editors, but instead chose to make him the villain of the piece.
If DC are willing to (temporarily) make Green Lantern a villain, then surely the Atom is a no-brainer. The character would again become relevant: a close friend of Hawkman's (and I understand a supporting character in the new Hawkman book), and a former member of the JLA during the golden days of the Satellite Years, has gone rogue - worse, murderous. This raises the possibility of exploring serious repercussions on other characters.
The only issue really is why the Atom has gone off the rails. I think "mind control" is a bad, bad plot device. I'd like to think Meltzer has something more clever in mind.
Oh, I don't have a problem with it, I just want the explanation to make sense.
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
And, they got to Batman. The idea that the once-team-friendly character that suddenly spun into the dark-brooding-loner did so due to subconscious manipulations by the League........incredible. Brilliant.
And it works in the real timeline of events. The period in which that event took place, not long after, Bats quit the League and formed the Outsiders. Now we have an idea why. Love it.
Quote:
I sincerely hope there is a raw, heartbreaking, ass-kicking, League-fracturing end for all of this.
And maybe....maybe.....the need for all new secret identities?
Absolutely. There needs to be some serious fallout from this.
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Ahem........I win.....
Pig Iron
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Loc: Salma Hayek's Heaving Bosom #333756 Re: The long awaited ID CRISIS #4 thread has arrived! - Thu Sep 16 2004 09:47 PM
Yeah, agreed..I hope not.
If it is a hero...and not a villain..I propose Ray Palmer, The Atom. Sue was talking on the phone when she was attacked. Jean was also talking on the phone. The Atom travels across phone lines. Batman asked who benefits. If any hero benfits it's Ray because he seems to have been mindwiped as well. ray is continuously shown to be stupid in the comics and he is a physicist for goodness sakes. I didn't see him in dr Light's memory..when he was in the memory of everyone else...Batman took his place in the actual event...I assume The Atom wasn't even there and they mind fucked him to be there when he really wasn't..which led to his divorce from Jean and fucked up his life..notice that Jean didn't die......The Atom was a better friend and could hav edealt with the situation better than Batman..so they made him the seventh man by default......they lied to him and abused his trust.
So, it is The Shade or The Atom.
***************************************************************************
Although my reasoning could be off..I hope it isn't mind control by a villain..that would be lame.
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There's an old hoary plot device in TV cop shows where a guy "becomes" a serial killer and kills several people including the one person he really wants to see dead. He does this so that the police assume his "real" victim is simply a random victim of the serial killer.
Maybe Ray killed Sue, etc., so that when Jean was attacked, no one would suspect him, the ex-husband (typically a prime suspect in ANY murder case, especially when you consider he just signed half his patents over to her in issue one).
Ray then "rescued" Jean as a ploy to get her--and/or his patents--back.
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Using that logic, then, G-Man... why get Boomerang out of the picture?
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It makes Boomerang look like the killer and closes the case.
It's gunna take some explaining, but I'm not against Atom being the bad guy if it's done right. I guess now we know why Brad said Geoff Johns was going to be angry at the outcome, considering how much he's used Ray in conjunction with Hawkman and made him more than he had been lately.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Yeah, what the Doctor said.
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I love the Batman angle on this. It so explains the formation of the Outsiders. I'm interested to see what Batman fans think of it.
And this is why of course the story is only concerned with the second and third tier characters. Batman Superman and WW all have to remian on speaking terms, I'd guess: but there is no reason why Batman should even wish to co-operate with or do any favours for the likes of Zatanna, Hawkman, Black Canary, Green Arrow, or even Elongated Man. Especially Zatanna. In fact, he has very good reason to hound all of them.You'd think he'd be out to put some of his so-called friends and colleagues in a prison over this.
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Actually, it's been implied that there will be a major break between the big three. Maybe the other two knew and said nothing, or maybe they'll have different opinions on what happened.
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That would mess up the Batman/Superman title, though.
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I doubt it's the Atom because I find it hard to believe that Meltzer would reveal the mastermind at this point of the series. He seems to have a penchant for misdirecting the reader and I question if he's doing that again.
Plus, seeing as how DC is bringing back Hal Jordan and ending any possibility of him becoming Paralax again it's difficult to believe DC would go down the hero-turned-villain road again after taking heat for Paralax.
I question if we'll EVER learn who the mastermind is, which would be an interesting twist. In the real world, there's always unsolved murders. Why not in comics?
Also, I think in the last issue Brad will want to show the consequences of the JLA's actions with Dr. Light and Batman. What might be possible is Batman subconsciously manipulating the Calculator. The Calculator has stated he's been paid for all of this, and Wayne Enterprises certainly has the money. After seeing the protocols he set up to take down the JLA as well as the gangs in Gotham City in the recent Wargames arc it's entirely possible Batman's behind this. Motivations? Not much, but again the moral of the story would be that the JLA can't play God.
What's the Atom's motivations? I can't come up with any.
"You kind of get tired giving the other team credit. At some point you've got to look in the mirror and say 'I sucked.'"
Alex Rodriguez, after the NY Yankees were eliminated from the 2006 ALDS by the Detroit Tigers.
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Quote:
jafabian said:
I question if we'll EVER learn who the mastermind is, which would be an interesting twist. In the real world, there's always unsolved murders. Why not in comics?
DC is planning another big story like IC for next summer. Maybe that story would solve it.
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
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Quote:
jafabian said:
I question if we'll EVER learn who the mastermind is, which would be an interesting twist. In the real world, there's always unsolved murders. Why not in comics?
Because if that were the case, Judd Winnick would come along and try to be clever by writing a solution into his runs on Green Arrow or Batman.
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Quote:
Dave said:
That would mess up the Batman/Superman title, though.
It's already messed up.
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Quote:
Dave said:
I love the Batman angle on this. It so explains the formation of the Outsiders. I'm interested to see what Batman fans think of it.
I haven't read either issue 5 or issue 6 yet (damn store keeps selling out), but based on the descriptions here, I don't like it one bit.
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IC#6 basically explains why Batman changed from his Silver Age team player persona to the darker, loner who has a plan on how to take out everyone of the JLA if they went rogue.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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And, again, based on that description I don't like it one bit.
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whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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G-Man, are you really Mr. Horse from Ren & Stimpy? 
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Again, I want to give it the benefit of the doubt, since I haven't read it.
However, so far, it just doesn't pass the "gut test" for me, the feeling I have, based on almost 40 years of being a Batman fan, as to what works for Batman and what doesn't.
First off, I worry that DC is now decreeing that the loner Batman-the guy who supposedly began his career in "Batman Year One"-is going to be replaced, yet again, with "Superfriend Batman."
Second, the idea of the last quarter century of Bat-continuity being basically due to a "mind fuck" is just a little too "spider-clone" for me.
Third, and most importantly, it seems an overly complicated--almost "past his prime John Byrne" way--of explaining why Batman goes from being a loner (at the beginning of his career) to team player back to loner when the "old" explanation worked pretty well. In real life, most of us have been in groups, or had friends, that we stopped getting along with. Were we all "mind wiped"? Of course not.
And, perhaps, more importantly, the old explanation fit quite well with the central conceit of Batman: that he is the way he is because of his parents' murder.
Batman watched his parents die in front him, scarring him for life and leaving him an orphan. There are case studies of orphans that show they are often plagued by inabilities to form close relationships.
As an orphan and victim of a violent crime, it would be hardly surprising that Batman would leery of others, a loner and prone to pushing people away.
Meltzer seems intent to replace that basic, powerful, bit of real psychology and pathos with retcons and convoluted theories.
And that bothers me.
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I'm proposing that somehow Ray Palmer got stupid as well. Think about the fact that he has patents and is a physicist...why does he always act like such a goofy clown who doesn't know anything? His motivation couldn't be his patents because Jean was giving them back. She is independent again and doesn't need Ray. She only gets back with him because of the situation. A phone call was made previous to both murder attempts...I'm not even counting Drake's. The Atom was not in any picture of the beating of Dr Light...not w/ Batman or without him in the picture. Batman was there when it happened, why wouldn't Green Lantern, Arrow and Canary insist that Batman be in on the vote since they were against using the mind warping of Light anyway. Green Arrow also stated that Batman had used questionable or mind altering tactics on the League after his own. What did Batman do? Does it relate to why Drake was targeted? Batman has Mad Hatter and Hugo Strange technology in the cave I'm sure....Did Batman at one time mess with Ray's mind to get the truth of a suspected misdead by the League to only be foiled again in a cyclical mind warping? This is mostly speculation.....
There is also the science involved in the Atom shrinking...as Dave has pointed out several times....could it be changing or screwing with his brain? There is only one hero with something to gain in this situation and it is the Atom and what he wanted was Jean back and needing him...it certainly wasn't the patents , she signed those back to him. He is always a third wheel, never appreciated and left a lesser-not a better- man because of his time with teh League. You could say the JLA destroyed his life.
I'm not saying that Meltzer won't pull out another card like Mirror Master or the Shade, but I think this is all about the heroes and returning the villains to serious threat levels. Ray Palmer may be a red herring, but I doubt it...the last issue is only 40 pgs and I think bringing in a new suspect and resolving it in that space would be a let down..if not impossible.
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Ah, but see, he's not actually "replacing" anything. Whathat he 's doing is just bringing in deeper insight into the characters and what they've done over the years. "Post-Crisis" loner Batman still joined the JLA, stayed with them for years, and later quit to form the Outsiders due to dissatisfaction with the League's methods. This all still holds true with IC. Only now we've been given deeper insight into some of the whys and wherefores of their behavior. Batman's brief softening of personality during his tenure in the satellite era still holds, as does his reversion to the loner personality later on. We've now got more of a reason for his shying away from the League for so long as well as his growing paranoia and the development of his "JLA Protocols" ala Tower of Babel. It all still holds and true and it all makes sense. Unlike the Spider Clone Saga.
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Just got it and I couldn't help myself, I read it in the car. Holee shit, the Atom?! He stepped in (ON!) her brain! That's just...wow. I'll have to post more later, I need to re-read this. If it really was Palmer as the killer on his own accord, it couldn't be because he wanted his patents back, Jean was signing them back anyway. Damn, what a mindblowing issue.
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If you've got the issue right in front of you, look at the front page of the paper Jean is reading. I believe it has something to do with her divorce with Ray and going public. That could also have been a factor for Sue's death.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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You mean the People magazine framed and hanging on the wall. We don't know what she's reading in the paper.
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She's reading the comic section Grimm, what else?
Noise, noise, noise, smokin' weed, smokin' weed, doin' coke, drinkin beers, drinkin' beers, beers, beers, rollin' fatties, smokin' blunts, who smokes the blunts? We smoke the blunts, smokin' blunts and rollin' blunts, fifteen dollars little man, stick that sh!t in my hand, if that money doesn't show, then you owe me, owe me, owe....my jungle love, oh we, oh we, oh, I think I want ta know ya, know ya.....
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Note the different styles that Rags uses when drawing Batman this issue. When we first see him, he seems to be similar to the Brian Bolland or Graham Nolan versions with maybe a hint of Kelly Jones.
In the flashback portion, he seems more like the Neal Adams or Irv Novick era Batman. Just one reason why I like Rags' art so much. Attention to detail.
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When I saw it was the Atom (possibly) I flipped. Good guys always going bad. Makes you wonder. Well, not wonder really, but the cliche becomes tiresome. Never so much as like a villain becoming good. That becomes a tad bit more interesting. Hank of Hawk and Dove, Obsidian, Parallax, Nuklon, and the Atom. Whatever.
Making him a villain is interesting, but a killer? Let's address this from the standpoint of a writer. The story has been rather well-written, because it points out most of the emotions and strains people would face in these certain situations (grief, denial, need for revenge, nostalgia). Being well-written, it has to explain WHY Ray Palmer would reduce himself to actually KILLING Sue Dibney. I mean, the evidence is there, and so is the motive (small footprints in her brain, getting back with his wife through reconciliation).
He is one of the smartest JLA members, and he could have made several deductions (capable-wise), like what would happen, and finding a necessary culprit/patsy for the crime (Captain Boomerang).
But it goes back to the whole thing of being cold-blooded. Who would have three people killed just to get back with his wife (plus having his ex-wife hanged, and Lois shot?--Sorry, I read ahead).
Plus, I go back to what Hal/Spectre said. If Brad's writing is as good and meticulous as he aspires to be, then Hal would have left a contributing detail by telling Ollie to get them and make sure they pay. That's plural, folks.
So, even if those footprints are Ray Palmer's, I believe there is considerably more left to this story than simply chasing him down through phonelines. A last-second confession? I don't know. Again, Lois still has to be shot (by who?), Bruce, Diana, and Clark have to stop liking each other, and some other parties have to be revealed. I think a lot of this comes down to Bruce.
Maybe the Atom was already a villain, and Bruce changed it around to put him in the league. Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.
I was kind of thinking Mr. Mind was involved. I am clueless. "That's right, now stomp REALLY hard."
Words not violence, break the silence. Maybe.
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A friend of mine suggested to me another "Suicide Squad" tie-in, as - according to him - there were experiments done in the Suicide Squad concerning something called "Project: Atom". (Mind you, I know nothing of this. I'm just going by what he told me.) Still, is this a possibility?
Also, what do Luthor's suit and Bolt buying it have to do with this whole thing? I was leafing through Issue #1 today and thought about that. Was this just something Meltzer used as a 'throwaway' or is there a point to it? 'Throwaway' doesn't seem like his style (he's not, after all, Jeph Loeb), so I'm thinking there might be something to it.
...but what?
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I really think there's got to be someone else involved. Sue was killed first, then torched. Unless Ray can start fires on a molecular level, I think someone else started that fire. Though Ray starting it could be interesting.
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I believe it was in Justice League #57 when The Atom first developed the power of lighting a match.
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500+ posts
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 577 |
Solicitations has it as being used for a story by either Teen Titans or Outsiders. One of them goes out to hunt down the armor. I think part of the job given by Brad was to create an excellent story with a lot of dangling ropes for other writers to make use of. Better villains, new rivalries, new feuds, etc.
Solicitations mentioned how Lois is going to get Shot in #7. I don't think she dies. That would be too cool.
Superman
But Diana and Bruce don't particularly seem interested in consoling Clark. He had a hand in this somewhere.
Flash
The new Captain Boomerang, a speedster, creates a tougher enemy for Wally West. I doubt they will mention who his mother is. That will be up to the writer of Flash. But I suspect an affair or something (rape)--looking at Zoom and Iris.
Green Arrow
He has to deal with Deathstroke as a potential enemy now. Great. Plus Merlyn and others. Maybe a falling out with the league.
Hawkman
Likewise, he has to deal with problems with the league. Was his mind tampered with? Did he really have adventures with Ray Palmer? The whole Ray thing is going to create problems for that comic--this may find its way to JSA
I am just touching some stuff, but Brad's 7 issues have done a better job for DC than anything since Crisis (in terms of stirring things in a POSITIVE way). Zero hour fucked things up. I think this was just the nice kick the line-up needed.
Words not violence, break the silence. Maybe.
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 15,546
Living the dream 15000+ posts
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Living the dream 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 15,546 |
Quote:
jafabian said:
Also, I think in the last issue Brad will want to show the consequences of the JLA's actions with Dr. Light and Batman.
I'm interested in seeing how E-man reacts in the last issue as well as this. One thing's for sure, Bats is gonna be pissed.
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 577
500+ posts
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500+ posts
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 577 |
The nice thing about this series is how it creates SO much potential for restarting/reviving interesting in some characters' origins. Tampering with history and their minds leads room to wonder who, if anyone, might have originally been a villain (If you read the Flash, there was this guy, the Top). Were there members of the JLA who were criminals, rounded up, and brainwashed? Could the Justice League have really been just as bad as the Crime Syndicate, but with a bunch of people brainwashed (ala Squadron Supreme). Brad opened the door for this.
I doubt DC would be so bold, but that would be a nice thing. Suspicion as to who was really good/bad, etc. Was the Flash merely another Johnny Quick or something? Doubtful. I am just having fun pondering. I mean, if a writer chooses to mess around with the Atom, then you can mess around with a lot of other characters. Maybe Arthur hated humans and was going to go to war with them. I like this.
Words not violence, break the silence. Maybe.
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