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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
Nope. Characters as old and as iconic as these can (and should) be reinterpreted. It's just a matter of when it happens. It makes no difference to me if all these interpretations are done at once. If they're good, they're good, period. You can't say "Oh, it's good, but it's not good because..."
So basically any character as old as Superman should be reinterpretated?
Characters in soaps who have died should be recasts with younger actors and brought back?
Should Tom Sawyer get a skateboard? Granted, he just became a Secret Service Agent in League, but that wasn't so much a reinterpretation as it was a continuation of the original work.
I don't remember who said it, but someone said that in one of Twain's books Tom became involved with the government or something and that's where Robinson got the idea of making him an agent.
Age and iconic status has nothing to do with characterization...
You don't see Wonder Woman getting her 'Birthright'.
quote:
You seem to be an expert on the Silver Age. So, a) You have read lots and lots of Silver Age comics, even though you don't like them (something I know you're capable of doing) or b) You haven't read more than me and you're assuming you know everything about it (other thing you're perfectly capable of doing).
I'm currently reading the 'Even More Secret Origins' reprint. Before that was the Wonder Woman reprint and before that was the Superboy reprint.
Some had good ideas but really, really bad executions and others were just very shitty ideas with even worse execution.
The Silver Age, contrary to popular belief, was not perfect.
quote:
That describes every Rob Lefield book I've read (both of them!). Mike Allred puts a lot of thought and a lot of heart into what he does, and it shows. No brains? What about that scene with Madman and Superman talking about God? What about the fact that part of Superman stayed in Madman (something that, as I've been told, shows in the next issues of Madman)? What about the ending? Instead of defeating Mxyzptlk by fighting him, they defeat him in a much more creative and hilarious way.
You think it's simplistic because of the art. This fits in with what I've said before in other topics. You stay with the way it looks it is and not with what it really is.
...
You make it sound as if how funny a story is justifies whether or not it was good.
Comic books, again, contrary to popular belief, aren't supposed to be just joke books or toilettainment...
quote:
Thanks, I'm gonna go read that now...
No problem.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
Wait, I just realize you said this about Morrison's JLA and not Allred's Madman. Sorry about that.
No, I said that about Gaiman's one shot :)
You were wrong either way, so it hardly matters.
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quote:
Originally posted by A Jar of Cardinals:
You were wrong either way, so it hardly matters.
No I wasn't. Gaiman had the characters change into their costumes not long into the story.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
quote:
Originally posted by A Jar of Cardinals:
You were wrong either way, so it hardly matters.
No I wasn't. Gaiman had the characters change into their costumes not long into the story.
And this lone event somehow reduces the story to "Silver Age fanboy" status?
Try harder.
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quote:
Originally posted by A Jar of Cardinals:
And this lone event somehow reduces the story to "Silver Age fanboy" status?
Try harder.
One of the main differences between the SA and the Modern Age is that back then the heroes spent more time in costume than they did in regular clothing, while after Crisis the opposite was true.
Stories that relly on having the characters in costume as soon as possible ussually don't have much to say about the character outside their powers and how they use them.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
quote:
Originally posted by A Jar of Cardinals:
And this lone event somehow reduces the story to "Silver Age fanboy" status?
Try harder.
One of the main differences between the SA and the Modern Age is that back then the heroes spent more time in costume than they did in regular clothing, while after Crisis the opposite was true.
Stories that relly on having the characters in costume as soon as possible ussually don't have much to say about the character outside their powers and how they use them.
Do you have any examples to support this, or are you generalizing, because I don't see this at all.
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quote:
Originally posted by A Jar of Cardinals:
Do you have any examples to support this, or are you generalizing, because I don't see this at all.
An example out of the Gaiman book or an example out of the SA?
For this post, as to not waste space, I'll assume you mean the latter.
I recently read the 'Even More Secret Origins' reprint that came out a few months ago.
In the first story, the origin of the Robin/Jimmy Olsen team, Robin and Batman appeared out of costume a total of TWO panels, the rest of the story they spent it in the spandex.
In the two panels they appeared out of it, in one was to hear the alarm from the Batcave, while the second it was plot driven. The two were at a baseball game and Dick got scared after hearing a player hit a ball with a bat because he thought someone was shooting at him.
When I say plot driven I mean that the only purpose of the panel was to show that reaction.
In more modern books you tend to see the characters do stuff that isn't necessarily related to the main plot of the story, be it starting out in one place or ending in another during the story.
In more modern comics the characters drive the story, in older ones the story drives the characters. The story determined what the characters could say and what they could do.
That made them two dimensional and uninteresting, that's why when works like Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen eventually appeared they caused such an impression on people, they were the complete opposite.
What did Roschach holding a sign about the incoming apocolypse outside the Comedian's funeral have to do with the main plot of a hero being killed or what Adrian ended up doing?
Nothing, the sign was a character trait because, unlike the SA characters, this character had a personality that didn't depend on the main plot.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
quote:
Originally posted by A Jar of Cardinals:
Do you have any examples to support this, or are you generalizing, because I don't see this at all.
An example out of the Gaiman book or an example out of the SA?
Examples of how stories that keep their characters in costumes deal less with their characters than stories that don't.
The Rorschach example seems odd considering he's in costume for almost the entire thing, early flashbacks excepted.
I should point out here that since the Gaiman book was a special and not a monthly it seems silly to complain that the characters end up in costume quickly.
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quote:
Originally posted by A Jar of Cardinals:
Examples of how stories that keep their characters in costumes deal less with their characters than stories that don't.
See above. We got to see a lot of Batman and Robin in that story but not enough of the people behind the costume.
Back then when the characters put on the spandex all they did was go through the motions of the plot.
As time went on exploring the characters secret identities (or real personalities, as it were) became more important.
Where as in the past you'd see Batman swinging over the city in costume looking for crime, in the late 80's you'd see stories where Steve Rogers, Clint Barton and other Avengers, in plain clothes, would go out jogging.
Having the characters jogging had nothing to do with the plot of the story, yet they did it because the characters had evolved beyond purely existing for the plot of the month.
quote:
Originally posted by A Jar of Cardinals:
The Rorschach example seems odd considering he's in costume for almost the entire thing, early flashbacks excepted.
And once he's out of costume we found out who he was as a person. It was what he did out of the costume that was more interesting and more three dimensional than what he did in it.
In costume he was driven by his investigation into the Comedian's murder. Out of it he was a flawed characters with very human problems, the kind of character exploration you wouldn't have seen if he had been in costume all the time.
He was literally two different people.
quote:
Originally posted by A Jar of Cardinals:
I should point out here that since the Gaiman book was a special and not a monthly it seems silly to complain that the characters end up in costume quickly.
Good point.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
No, I said that about Gaiman's one shot :)
Heh!
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
So basically any character as old as Superman should be reinterpretated?
Characters in soaps who have died should be
recasts with younger actors and brought back?
Should Tom Sawyer get a skateboard? Granted, he just became a Secret Service Agent in League, but that wasn't so much a reinterpretation as it was a continuation of the original work.
I don't remember who said it, but someone said that in one of Twain's books Tom became involved with the government or something and that's where Robinson got the idea of making him an agent.
Age and iconic status has nothing to do with characterization...
You don't see Wonder Woman getting her 'Birthright'.
Oh, man. That's such a mess. Let's see...
1) There has been at least one Superman comic every month for 65 years. He has never stopped being published. If Superman had never been reinterpreted he'd still be the character Siegel and Shuster created and the story nowadays would be the same started in Action #1, stretched for 65 years. Now, I'm not saying that the original Superman wasn't cool. But he wouldn't have managed to stay alive all these years if he hadn't been constantly reinterpreted.
2) Characters in Soap Operas? Is there a Soap Opera that has been constanly shown for sixty years? Are Soap Operas that last long mostly about one character? Is any Soap Opera character an international Icon? Most importanly, are any Soap Operas MEANT to last forever? Superman is. Not literally 'forever', but you get the idea, I hope.
3) If at least one Tom Sawyer story was published each month, and it was expected to sell well to impulse a big franchise, he'd have to be constantly reinterpreted.
4) Wonder Woman has been reinterpreted several times. Same thing with Bat-Man. Just like with Superman, some reinterpretations are good, some aren't. The good ones make it worth it.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
I'm currently reading the 'Even More Secret Origins' reprint. Before that was the Wonder Woman reprint and before that was the Superboy reprint.
Some had good ideas but really, really bad executions and others were just very shitty ideas with even worse execution.
The Silver Age, contrary to popular belief, was not perfect.
Ah, so it's my first option. I wish I could spend money like that.
Anyway, no, it's not perfect. Who said it was? The Modern Age isn't perfect either.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
...
You make it sound as if how funny a story is justifies whether or not it was good.
Comic books, again, contrary to popular belief, aren't supposed to be just joke books or
toilettainment...
The story had hilarious parts, but it wasn't entirely comedic. Just because the art is simple doesn't mean you're suppoused to laugh all the time.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
No problem.
I didn't see anything in Veicht's interview that made me think his new Question book is a Rorscharch ripoff. If you think so, whatever. I refuse to debate a book none of us has read, again.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
I didn't see anything in Veicht's interview that made me think his new Question book is a Rorscharch ripoff. If you think so, whatever. I refuse to debate a book none of us has read, again.
Clearly you read what you wanted to.
Veith said that O'Neill's Question series was a take off Moore's Question rip off, Rorscharch and he doesn't want to do that.
Just replace Question with Superman and Rorscharch with Supreme...
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Clearly you read what you wanted to.
Veith said that O'Neill's Question series was a take off Moore's Question rip off, Rorscharch and he doesn't want to do that.
Just replace Question with Superman and Rorscharch with Supreme...
I didn't see anything in Veicht's interview that made me think his new Question book is a Rorscharch ripoff. If you think so, whatever. I refuse to debate a book none of us has read, again.
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Wait, did I missunderstand you again? Are you saying that Moore ripped off The Question?
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
Wait, did I missunderstand you again? Are you saying that Moore ripped off The Question?
Dude, Moore ripped off all the Charlton characters for Watchmen, you didn't know that?
Captain Atom = Doctor Manhattan.
Silk Spectre = Phantom Lady
Owlman = Blue Beetle.
And it goes on and on.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
I didn't see anything in Veicht's interview that made me think his new Question book is a Rorscharch ripoff. If you think so, whatever. I refuse to debate a book none of us has read, again.
Veicht didn't say HIS book would rip off Rorscharch, he said that O'Neill's book ripped that character off, who in turn was a rip off of the Question in the first place.
Veicht wants to go back to the original.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Dude, Moore ripped off all the Charlton characters for Watchmen, you didn't know that?
Captain Atom = Doctor Manhattan.
Silk Spectre = Phantom Lady
Owlman = Blue Beetle.
And it goes on and on.
I'm perfectly aware that Moore based his characters on the Chartlon characters, I just wanted to make you say he was ripping them off.
This is something you said in another thread:
quote:
What Moore ended up doing here was create a group of original character that were superior to those he wanted to use.
Are they ripoffs or original characters? Just now, you said they were ripoffs. In your opinion, a story can't be good if it's a ripoff of a previous concept. Does Watchmen suck, then?
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Veicht didn't say HIS book would rip off Rorscharch, he said that O'Neill's book ripped that character off, who in turn was a rip off of the Question in the first place.
Veicht wants to go back to the original.
Ehem...
quote:
The challenge was how can we stay true to the basic character, while still making him over the top, in the same sense that Rorschach was, but without copping to Rorschach in any way, shape or form. Luckily, I came up with an idea that I thought worked and they thought so too.
Without giving too much away, since I don't want to ruin it for everybody, our Question's been at this business of beating up the bad guys and walking the mean streets of Chicago for about ten years and the process appears to have driven him kind of bonkers. He appears to believe that he, and he alone, is in an ongoing dialog with the city itself.
He's very influenced by the original Question, but also very influenced by Rorschach. Was the original Question "bonkers"? Don't think so.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
I'm perfectly aware that Moore based his characters on the Chartlon characters, I just wanted to make you say he was ripping them off.
This is something you said in another thread:
Are they ripoffs or original characters? Just now, you said they were ripoffs. In your opinion, a story can't be good if it's a ripoff of a previous concept. Does Watchmen suck, then?
They are original characters ripped off from the originals, but unlike his Superman rip off, Supreme, the Watchmen rip offs were superior to the originals.
And I didn't say that ALL stories with rip offs can't be good, I said Supreme sucks because it rips off the Silver Age Superman.
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Like I said, you read what you wanted to read :) quote:
VEITCH:The Question as created by Ditko is one of those great archetypal characters. Unfortunately, he's been forever been cast into the shadow of his own knock off, Rorschach, as given to us by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons in WATCHMEN. So there's the challenge: do you just do The Question as Rorschach? I wasn't interested in that. The challenge was how can we stay true to the basic character, while still making him over the top, in the same sense that Rorschach was, but without copping to Rorschach in any way, shape or form.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
They are original characters ripped off from the originals, but unlike his Superman rip off, Supreme, the Watchmen rip offs were superior to the originals.
And I didn't say that ALL stories with rip offs can't be good, I said Supreme sucks because it rips off the Silver Age Superman.
Ripoff is a strong word. I think it only applies when the writer expects to decieve the readers. In this case, it's obvious that Watchmen comes from Chartlon and Supreme comes from Superman, so I'd call it an homage.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Like I said, you read what you wanted to read :)
"The challenge was how can we stay true to the basic character, while still making him over the top, in the same sense that Rorschach was, but without copping to Rorschach in any way, shape or form."
Two straight sources, right there.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
Ripoff is a strong word. I think it only applies when the writer expects to decieve the readers. In this case, it's obvious that Watchmen comes from Chartlon and Supreme comes from Superman, so I'd call it an homage.
And Veitch calls it a knock off.
Veitch is friends with Moore, so why not give his words a little more credit? Don't you think he, above all others, would know his friend's intentions better?
If he says it's a knock off it probably is.
Entry Word: knock off
Function: verb
Text: 1
Synonyms STOP 3, cease, desist, ||deval, discontinue, give over, halt, leave off, quit, surcease
2
Synonyms DEDUCT 1, discount, draw back, substract, subtract, take, take away, take off, take out
3
Synonyms MURDER 1, assassinate, ||bump off, cool, do in, ||dust off, execute, finish, liquidate, put away
|| 4
Synonyms ROB 1, knock over, loot, plunder, ransack, relieve, rifle, rip off, stick up
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
"The challenge was how can we stay true to the basic character, while still making him over the top, in the same sense that Rorschach was, but without copping to Rorschach in any way, shape or form."
Two straight sources, right there.
Unfortunately, he's been forever been cast into the shadow of his own knock off, Rorschach, as given to us by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons in WATCHMEN.
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Continuity used to be nothin' but a Millstone.
When did it suddenly become an albatross?
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
And Veitch calls it a knock off.
Veitch is friends with Moore, so why not give his words a little more credit? Don't you think he, above all others, would know his friend's intentions better?
If he says it's a knock off it probably is.
Entry Word: knock off
Function: verb
Text: 1
Synonyms STOP 3, cease, desist, ||deval, discontinue, give over, halt, leave off, quit, surcease
2
Synonyms DEDUCT 1, discount, draw back, substract, subtract, take, take away, take off, take out
3
Synonyms MURDER 1, assassinate, ||bump off, cool, do in, ||dust off, execute, finish, liquidate, put away
|| 4
Synonyms ROB 1, knock over, loot, plunder, ransack, relieve, rifle, rip off, stick up
Knock off sounds a little less harsh than rip off. I don't think Veicht thinks Moore was trying to decieve his readers. Maybe he did mean rip off, but his definition of it is different than mine.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Unfortunately, he's been forever been cast into the shadow of his own knock off, Rorschach, as given to us by Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons in WATCHMEN.
So...? How's that related to Veicht taking elements from Rorschach?
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quote:
Originally posted by backwards7:
Continuity used to be nothin' but a Millstone.
When did it suddenly become an albatross?
When writers like Mark Waid decided that being ignorant was preferable to anything else, like writting challenging stories that added to the myth of the characters.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
So...? How's that related to Veicht taking elements from Rorschach?
He said he's doing the complete opposite
"I wasn't interested in that. The challenge was how can we stay true to the basic character, while still making him over the top, in the same sense that Rorschach was, but without copping to Rorschach in any way, shape or form."
He just wants to make his version over the top of Ditko's version but without imitating what Moore did.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
So...? How's that related to Veicht taking elements from Rorschach?
He said he's doing the complete opposite
"I wasn't interested in that. The challenge was how can we stay true to the basic character, while still making him over the top, in the same sense that Rorschach was, but without copping to Rorschach in any way, shape or form."
He just wants to make his version over the top of Ditko's version but without imitating what Moore did.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
Knock off sounds a little less harsh than rip off. I don't think Veicht thinks Moore was trying to decieve his readers. Maybe he did mean rip off, but his definition of it is different than mine.
Rip off is a synonym of Knock Off, so when Veitch calls it a knock off he might as well be calling it a rip off or any of the other synonyms posted above.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
When writers like Mark Waid decided that being ignorant was preferable to anything else, like writting challenging stories that added to the myth of the characters.
If you say that about Waid, you say it about Byrne.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
He said he's doing the complete opposite
"I wasn't interested in that. The challenge was how can we stay true to the basic character, while still making him over the top, in the same sense that Rorschach was, but without copping to Rorschach in any way, shape or form."
He just wants to make his version over the top of Ditko's version but without imitating what Moore did.
Again, was Ditko's Question crazy and over the top? No, those are characteristics from Rorschach.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Rip off is a synonym of Knock Off, so when Veitch calls it a knock off he might as well be calling it a rip off or any of the other synonyms posted above.
But I don't think he means that Moore made the new characters maliciously.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
If you say that about Waid, you say it about Byrne.
How so? Byrne had Crisis, what does Waid have? Berganza's shitty editing that lead to low sales?
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
Again, was Ditko's Question crazy and over the top? No, those are characteristics from Rorschach.
Where did Veitch say he's making the Question like Rosrschach?!?!!
He said, in the most clearer of ways, that he's looking to do something that will send the character over the top like Moore did with his version of the character, but he's not looking to imitate what Moore did.
So, again, where did you read this? Where does it say that Veitche's Question will be crazy?
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
But I don't think he means that Moore made the new characters maliciously.
I agree, I doubt he meant that.
He was refering to the fact that the knock off had an effect on the original, an effect he wants to get rid off.
He wants to revolutionze the original without having to rely on any of the characteristics of the knock off.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
How so? Byrne had Crisis, what does Waid have? Berganza's shitty editing that lead to low sales?
The reason behind Man of Steel, believe it or not, was the fact that the Superman comics, the stories, sucked at that point. Since it was not the only comic that sucked, they did a massive revamp and made Crisis to justify it storywise.
Now the current Superman comics suck. It's not enough to make a massive revamp, but it's more than enough justification for Waid's Birthright.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Where did Veitch say he's making the Question like Rosrschach?!?!!
He said, in the most clearer of ways, that he's looking to do something that will send the character over the top like Moore did with his version of the character, but he's not looking to imitate what Moore did.
So, again, where did you read this? Where does it say that Veitche's Question will be crazy?
In the quote I posted before. He said he's been a vigilante for ten years and he's going bonkers. He talks to the cities, and he thinks the cities talk back.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
I agree, I doubt he meant that.
He was refering to the fact that the knock off had an effect on the original, an effect he wants to get rid off.
He wants to revolutionze the original without having to rely on any of the characteristics of the knock off.
Rorschach had an effect in O'neil's Question in the sense that The Question was in Rorschach's shadow, since what O'neil did wasn't at all like Rorschach.
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