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If the only reasons they give in voting for Kerry are to get rid of Bush and his policies, then they're anti-Bush and not Pro Kerry. That's what I've run into with people voting for Kerry. They'll tell me all the shit they hate about Bush and his policies, but I have yet to hear one say they really like what Kerry has done or plans to do. This, of course, comes a lot from the fact that Kerry hasn't offered any real alternatives and just smoke and mirrors (at least, in my opinion).
My old roommate is supporting Kerry and even working on the local campaign. He admitted that he doesn't really like Kerry, but he wants Bush out of office. Now, this is different from four years ago when he was working on the local Nader campaign. He believed in Nader and his ideas for America. Now, he's switched to the Democratic Party simply because they have a better chance than Nader at ousting Bush.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
This, of course, comes a lot from the fact that Kerry hasn't offered any real alternatives and just smoke and mirrors (at least, in my opinion).
He presented several ideas when he spoke in front of the NAACP.
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
I've said quite a few times that I'm pro-Kerry.
BTW, where do you guys draw the line between someone being pro-Kerry and someone being anti-Bush? If someone's supporting another candidate besides Bush, does that make them automatically anti-Bush, or does it depend on how much they dislike/hate Bush, or how much they like Kerry or Nader, or what?
I just see alot more signs and bumper stickers that say negative things towards Bush rather than good things about Kerry. I also see the opposite regarding Bush.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Exactly what I see.
I see "Bush/Cheney" for the right, and "Defeat Bush" for the left (I guess that means that they're not particularly proud of Kerry. The old Dean campaign ad comes to mind, "Anyone but Bush!").
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Exactly what I see.
I see "Bush/Cheney" for the right, and "Defeat Bush" for the left (I guess that means that they're not particularly proud of Kerry. The old Dean campaign ad comes to mind, "Anyone but Bush!").
Ive even heard teh capaign to "Plug your nose and vote for Kerry.
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From what I've observed here in Miami, it's somewhat different. While I have seen quite a few "defeat Bush" signs and stuff like that, I'm also seeing a lot of positive support for John Kerry and John Edwards. Lots of people have "Kerry/Edwards" bumper stickers on their cars, which I guess isn't the same as saying "Defeat Bush." So I'm seeing quite a lot of genuine support for Kerry and Edwards, although their campaign managers are widely criticized.
And I'm also seeing quite a lot of hatred aimed at Kerry supporters. Someone at my dad's synagogue called him a terrorist and a traitor to Jews worldwide because he was voting for Kerry. A friend of mine's car was vandalized because it had a Kerry sticker on it - we're talking smashed windows and slashed tires, thousands of dollars worth of damage. Someone else I know with a Kerry bumper sticker almost got run off the road by a guy with a Bush/Cheney bumper sticker who was shouting obscenities at her (although to be honest, he thinks the guy was drunk.
So while I won't deny that some Kerry supporters cross the line, and it's wrong for them to do so, they do not have a monopoly on lashing out at the opposition.
Last edited by Darknight613; 2004-09-17 10:12 PM.
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Honestly, since Kerry completed his ticket by adding Edwards, I've seen a lot of Kerry/Edwards signs, while before I saw mostly Defeat Bush stuff going around.
You can see it as not having faith in Kerry, or having a whole lotta hate in Bush. Either way, I've never seen a Presidential term instigate so many signs screaming for him to get booted.
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A big question though is: Do we see any "Defeat Kerry!" signs?
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Are we counting little shirts kids wear that say Democrats will make a mess if we vote them in?
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Quote:
the G-man said:
One liberal columnist fears mass suicide if President Bush wins re-election:
It's not hard to imagine that on November 3rd there might be a sort of grim mass exodus from this sad planet should Bush pull this election out. My generation may be particularly vulnerable to the urge to lay back in a warm bath and open up their veins as chants of "Four More Years" echo horribly from every 24 hour cable news station.
Good. I don't mind liberals, and I have plenty of friends who dislike Bush, but we don't particularly need anyone that wound up about this in the gene pool. 
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Quote:
Pariah said:
A big question though is: Do we see any "Defeat Kerry!" signs?
Kerry isn't the incumbent. In 4 yrs you will see the defeat Kerry signs. 
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
A big question though is: Do we see any "Defeat Kerry!" signs?
Kerry isn't the incumbent. In 4 yrs you will see the defeat Kerry signs.
Why? 
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wannabuyamonkey said:
Why?
....
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
A big question though is: Do we see any "Defeat Kerry!" signs?
Kerry isn't the incumbent. In 4 yrs you will see the defeat Kerry signs.
Why?
He isn't yet holding the office (yet), what would you be defeating him from?
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Sorry, but the possiblity of a Kerry victory was so far from my mind I didn't quite get the joke.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Sorry, but the possiblity of a Kerry victory was so far from my mind I didn't quite get the joke.
Yeah, I totally sense your unworriedness from your posts. 
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Sorry, but the possiblity of a Kerry victory was so far from my mind I didn't quite get the joke.
Yeah, I totally sense your unworriedness from your posts.
I'm currious, because honestly, after the RNC I have felt very confident that Bush will win. What in my posts indicates that I'm worried?
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Are we counting little shirts kids wear that say Democrats will make a mess if we vote them in?
The "Democrats" aren't "Kerry" individually.
Blanket statements are more understandable than naming names.
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
A big question though is: Do we see any "Defeat Kerry!" signs?
Kerry isn't the incumbent. In 4 yrs you will see the defeat Kerry signs.
They're still on the same level. Just because he's been and (at the moment) still is president, that doesn't mean we don't feel animosity towards Kerry for what he will do if he is elected. Taking this into mind, it would be reasonable to assume that the situation would be no different if we made signs saying as much.
But if you wish, I'll change it to, "Deter Kerry".
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You have a singular wit, wbam.... Okay, now, I'm curious. Not about the discussion at hand. Simply, these pics...   Okay, first. That is a pretty nice picture, quality and focus wise. Very unrushed, and professional. So, my question is, who is this photographer? Because, for him/her to be able to get such a clean, perfect shot of a "tragedy-in-action", they deserve a really nice award. It's rare to be johnny-on-the-spot for such a convenient, and basic, testament against the Kerry supporters. Second. Why, exactly, was the father continuing to hold her on his shoulders, looking sad and defeated long enough for such a clean and proper shot? Why didn't he remove her from the scene of violence the moment it happened? Even better, if this punk next to him commited such a heinous act towards his own daughter, right before his and the photographer's eyes, why didn't he remove her immediately, and then, come back with a crowbar in hand? Seriously. I just find all of this very....curious. If it's a true-to-life picture, depicting the senseless horror of political extremism, then, it deserves to be placed next to photos of over 1,000 dead U.S. soldiers, so the horrors of what Kerry and Bush have each wrought can be viewed by history.... ...equally.
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Eh, Prometheus, it wouldn't be the first time someone get a clean shot in the middle of a crowd. Maybe you should check Whomod's collection.
Also note the fact that the camera didn't make it in time to see the opposing party (of assholes) rip the sign apart. If what you're implying is true, then it would be reasonable to assume the camera would have seen them tear it to shreds.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Sorry, but the possiblity of a Kerry victory was so far from my mind I didn't quite get the joke.
Yeah, I totally sense your unworriedness from your posts.
I'm currious, because honestly, after the RNC I have felt very confident that Bush will win. What in my posts indicates that I'm worried?
Just my opinion, but if you (& Pres. Bush) felt Kerry wasn't a threat, more time would be spent talking up Bush & not attacking Kerry (& the people who are going to vote him into office)
If your confidence was true you wouldn't feel the need to bash IMHO.
BTW Here's some more background on that nice lil Republican family...
On September 17, The Drudge Report home page featured a September 16 Associated Press photo of a 3-year-old girl, Sophia Parlock, holding a ripped Bush-Cheney '04 sign and crying as she sits on her father's shoulders. Drudge captioned the photo: "GIRL CRIES AFTER BUSH/CHENEY SIGN RIPPED BY THUGS...". Later that day, The Washington Times published an interview with the Parlock family, whom the paper described as "proudly patriotic."
As The Washington Times reported on September 17:
"They just pounced on us," said Phil Parlock, who took his 11-year-old son, Alex, and 3-year-old daughter, Sophia, to the Democratic rally at Tri-State Airport in Huntington, W.Va.
Sophia became briefly famous yesterday when an Associated Press photo showing her in tears after Democrats tore her sign to pieces was posted on Matt Drudge's Web site, www.drudgereport.com.
"She was crying; they were pushing and shoving her," said Mr. Parlock, a Huntington real estate agent. "She was scared."
Both The Washington Times and Drudge failed to mention that this is the third time the Parlock family has been involved in so-called assaults involving campaign signs.
As noted by the blog Rising Hegemon, Phil Parlock has claimed he was assaulted at a 1996 protest.
The Huntington man said he was knocked to the ground by a Clinton supporter when he tried to display a sign that read "Remember Vince Foster," the deputy White House counsel who committed suicide in a Washington, D.C., park. His death has become the subject of much debate among Clinton opponents.
"It must have been a strict Democrat who did this," Parlock said, feeling the red abrasions on his face. "Everyone with the exception of him was real peaceful about our protest." [Charleston (WV) Daily Mail, August 27, 1996]
In 2000, Parlock found himself in yet another confrontation with Democrats at a campaign event:
Phil Parlock didn't expect to need all 12 of the Bush-Cheney signs he and his son Louis smuggled in their socks and pockets into the rally for Vice President Al Gore.
But each time they raised a sign, someone would grab it out of their hands, the two Huntington residents said. And sometimes it got physical.
"I expected some people to take our signs," said Louis, 12. "But I did not expect people to practically attack us." [Charleston (WV) Daily Mail, October 28, 2000]
The photo of Sophia Parlock was taken by Randy Snyder. Apparently, Snyder is not an Associated Press photographer; he is listed as "chief photographer" on the masthead of The Herald-Dispatch, which bills itself as "the online news authority for Huntington, West Virginia, Southern Ohio and Eastern Kentucky."
The Parlock family has been featured numerous times in the Herald-Dispatch, including in a July 5 article about an Independence Day rally attended by President George W. Bush. The July 5 article also featured photographs by the same Randy Snyder.
On September 17, Parlock was interviewed by nationally syndicated Clear Channel radio host Glenn Beck. Regarding the Parlock family's attendance at a brief appearance by Senator John Edwards in Huntington, W.Va., at which the photo of Sophia Parlock was taken, her father recounted:
PARLOCK: The painter's union guys took a couple signs off of us. ... Um, some women and old ladies did it too. I mean, but you can see, clearly in that picture, he has a piece of the sign in his hand and he is dropping it onto the ground.
Minutes after his interview, Beck apparently received information about Parlock's past encounters, saying that "the blogs are going crazy." Following is an excerpt from Beck's second interview of Phil Parlock:
BECK: So you've done this -- and you admit to this -- you've done this ...
PARLOCK: But there's a certain consistency there, and you just read it. We are consistently quiet and peaceful ...
BECK: Mm-hmm.
PARLOCK: Glenn, look, I work on -- I, I, I said this before, I shouldn't tell my secrets, but -- I work on a subliminal level; I don't go after the press. The press is easy. Working on people to change their minds is harder.
BECK: OK.
PARLOCK: I'm not a troublemaker. We -- we've -- we have gone to rallies -- my family and I -- we stand there quietly, and we're viewed as a threat, for standing there quietly.
— O.W.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200409170013
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Interesting, isn't it?
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I'm very sorry that the young girl had to endure such an attack, but I agree with previous posters that I think the parent is partially to blame for:
1)brandishing his child with a sign, making her the focal point of his own political agenda(and I'd say the same if it was a Kerry supporter)
and
2)allowing his child to be further exploited by the public as the latest example of the dirty damn awful liberals violent outcry against Bush
Not knowing the exact circumstances of the encounter, I have to wonder if the parent didn't know beforehand what he was walking into, and have an idea of what might happen. Of course, that doesn't make the individuals who attacked the girl any less disgusting.
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Ok, after actually reading the article(yeah...shaddup), I came across this: Quote:
"They just pounced on us," said Phil Parlock, who took his 11-year-old son, Alex, and 3-year-old daughter, Sophia, to the Democratic rally at Tri-State Airport in Huntington, W.Va.
The guy took his 3 year old daughter and 11 year old son to a Democratic rally....carrying Bush/Cheney signs?
He's a jackass, too.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
1)brandishing his child with a sign, making her the focal point of his own political agenda(and I'd say the same if it was a Kerry supporter)
2)allowing his child to be further exploited by the public as the latest example of the dirty damn awful liberals violent outcry against Bush
You really have no proof that he was using her as a figure head to promote anything. He was carrying her on his shoulders and helping him hold the sign. He said nothing that showed any signs of defaming Liberals.
Quote:
Not knowing the exact circumstances of the encounter, I have to wonder if the parent didn't know beforehand what he was walking into, and have an idea of what might happen. Of course, that doesn't make the individuals who attacked the girl any less disgusting.
While you did say that what those people did was wrong, this isn't really part of the issue. Noting this would be like saying, "You had it coming." These are rational human beings, not the spirit of the KKK. Why would he have any beforehand knowledge that they were going to get violent and that it would be unsafe to bring his kid there--Especially if these people are also wanting what's best for their country (the whole reason they're there)? Would it not be reasonable for him to assume it would be safe?
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Quote:
Pariah said:
You really have no proof that he was using her as a figure head to promote anything. He was carrying her on his shoulders and helping him hold the sign.
Oh, come on. He took his kids to this rally, and had them carry pro-Bush signs. The fact that they were there at all is bad enough. That he carried them on his shoulders(thus making them clearly stand out) with signs that directly conflict the agenda a pre-planned rally, that's crazy.
I highly doubt that they were out on a jolly stroll and they just happened to come across a Democratic rally. The man was fully aware of the circumstances, and he brought his own kids right into it.
He has every right to protest something, to voice his opinion, but to bring your kids into a situation when you know brandishing a contradictory sign will be viewed as hostile; that's ridiculous.
Quote:
While you did say that what those people did was wrong, this isn't really part of the issue.
The "issue"?
I didn't think this was an issue. An issue has two sides, two stances, a reasonable area for debate. This thread just seemed like wbam blasting liberals with a loaded question diguised as an "issue".
Quote:
Noting this would be like saying, "You had it coming."
The guy wasn't going to get a pleasant reaction, and he knew that. Unfortunately, his kid paid for it, and a lot moreso than she(or even her asshole father) deserved.
Quote:
Why would he have any beforehand knowledge that they were going to get violent and that it would be unsafe to bring his kid there--Especially if these people are also wanting what's best for their country (the whole reason they're there)? Would it not be reasonable for him to assume it would be safe?
Violence comes in many forms. Should he have expected that his kid would have been attacked and her sign destroyed? No, probably not. Should he have entertained the idea that his presence there would not have been appreciated, and that he could have been met by verbal harrassment? Absolutely. Putting your children in a potentially disruptive position like this is borderline abusive.
What possible reason could he have for doing so?
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Quote:
Animalman said:
Ok, after actually reading the article(yeah...shaddup), I came across this:
Quote:
"They just pounced on us," said Phil Parlock, who took his 11-year-old son, Alex, and 3-year-old daughter, Sophia, to the Democratic rally at Tri-State Airport in Huntington, W.Va.
The guy took his 3 year old daughter and 11 year old son to a Democratic rally....carrying Bush/Cheney signs?
He's a jackass, too.
Yeah, he went looking for trouble (and maybe even a photo-op). And he felt it was ok to bring his young children to it. As I said, in social situations, people often misbehave. If this guy hasn't got sense enough to know that before hand while taking his kids into "the other camp's party," then he's a fool and what he's done is exploitative.
Jim
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Quote:
Pariah said:
You really have no proof that he was using her as a figure head to promote anything. He was carrying her on his shoulders and helping him hold the sign. He said nothing that showed any signs of defaming Liberals.
I don't know how many of you out there in Robbieland are parents, but I am. I have 2 children and recall when they were 3. OK, no 3 year old is going to be "helping" Dad hold the sign.
He was putting the kid out there. And that's wrong.
Jim
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Using Jim's logic, if a hippie brings his kid to protest President Bush at a GOP event, I can beat up the kid and prosecute the father for child abuse afterwards.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Using Jim's logic, if a hippie brings his kid to protest President Bush at a GOP event, I can beat up the kid and prosecute the father for child abuse afterwards.
If you can somehow draw that from what I said, man, you have an active fantasy life.
JJ
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Using Jim's logic, if a hippie brings his kid to protest President Bush at a GOP event, I can beat up the kid and prosecute the father for child abuse afterwards.
Actually that hypothetical hippie wouldn't be able to get near enough to the actual GOP event. And if he was somehow able to sneak a "Hope is on the way" Kerry/Edwards sign, the authorities would escort him out, no?
And would any of you guys really take a young child into a crowd of burly union members with a Bush sign? (this is the third time the family has made the papers) The guy who ripped the sign up was wrong but this doesn't say to much about the father's character.
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
The guy who ripped the sign up was wrong but this doesn't say to much about the father's character.
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. Ripping the sign out of the little girl's hands is boorish. It says nothing good about a man who makes a child cry.
But the Dad's got to own up to his responsibility. He took his kids armed with Bush signs into a Dem rally. He was playing with fire just as a Kerry sign into a Repub rally is playing with fire.
The Dad was flat out irresponsible. Not abusive, but clearly exploitative.
Jim
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Jim Jackson said:
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Matter-eater Man said:
The guy who ripped the sign up was wrong but this doesn't say to much about the father's character.
Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. Ripping the sign out of the little girl's hands is boorish. It says nothing good about a man who makes a child cry.
But the Dad's got to own up to his responsibility. He took his kids armed with Bush signs into a Dem rally. He was playing with fire just as a Kerry sign into a Repub rally is playing with fire.
The Dad was flat out irresponsible. Not abusive, but clearly exploitative.
Jim
Guess the father puts his politics above his little girl's safety. I wonder if he would have had the courage to go into that group alone without his human shield?
Fair play!
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What I hope is that the characterization of Kerry supporters as animals is not accepted as fact. We cannot allow one boor's actions to taint everyone under the pro-Kerry banner.
I've run into *plenty* of arrogant, potentially abusive Bush fans. At political rallies, when tempers can flare and emotions run hot, it's not a good idea to take little kids. Even worse to take little kids into the the other party's rally.
And certainly, to practice what I preach, I do not ascribe the behavior of the Dad in this case to all Dads or even to all Republican Dads.
This event had lots of ill-considered beahvior going on.
JJ
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OP
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OK, just so I'm clear, let me list the rules of getting assaulted at a protest.
1) and probably the foundation of all the rules is you are not permitted to be at a Kerry rally with opposing signs failure to agknowledge this rule may result in being assaulted even if you're a 3 year old.
2) If you are assaulted more than once then your character is in question and we can assume that you weren't "really" assaulted.
3) While Kerry suporters are justified in assaulting you for expressing the wrong kind of speech, you are guilty of child abuse for expressing any kind of speech that would resonably result in a Kerry supporter assaulting your child.
4) The general display of pro-Bush (hate speech) material in any local may justify an assault on your person or property due to the neglegence of the Bush administration in causing such wide spread dispaire in sensitive educated people.
Now on to your comments MEM,
As far as my posting cotroversial articles being evidence of concern or worry about Bush's chances (an incumbant president has NEVER lost an election when they've come out of thier convention with 51% or higher), it's a reasonable assumption, but an innaccurate one. The reason I post more controversial articles is because Rob's board's aren't exactly a bastion of "undecideds" and when I do post positive articles they get burried with low replies and low views. We all know what Bush has done, he's either provided tax relief for working guys like me or he's padded the pockets of the top 1%, he's either freed the Iraqi people or slaugtered them unjustly sending over a thousand troops to thier death (BTW, 1 troop lost is too many, but that's what happens in war, troops die and all things considered 1000 is acctually a pretty low # theres a cost to anything worth fighting for, far more people die in cars each year, perhaps we should never go anywhere, far more college kids kill themselves each year, perhaps we shouldn't get educated.) I know I'm not going to convert anyone here, but I like posting here and enjoy a good spirited debate so I post the type of thread that will result in that.
My reasons for posting this particular thread is because it adresses an issue I deal with every day. I am confident that Bush will win, but I'm not confident that I or my property will remain unmollested if I wear a Bush T-shirt or display a sign or bumper sticker.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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some RKMB'ers are Obsessed with Black People Hmmm? 5000+ posts
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My reasons for posting this particular thread is because it adresses an issue I deal with every day. I am confident that Bush will win, but I'm not confident that I or my property will remain unmollested if I wear a Bush T-shirt or display a sign or bumper sticker.
Moulton woman says she lost job for sporting Kerry sticker on car
Woman Fired For Kerry Bumper Sticker Has New Job
As for the poor child.
This bit of photography appears to be just as spontaneous and unplanned as your average episode of America's Funniest Home videos.
I'm eagerly awaiting the 'Kerry supporter kicks puppy', 'Scott Peterson supports Kerry', and 'Kerry supporter drinks a beer and cheets on his wife' articles.
Donald Segretti lives!
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Animalman said:
Oh, come on. He took his kids to this rally, and had them carry pro-Bush signs. The fact that they were there at all is bad enough. That he carried them on his shoulders(thus making them clearly stand out) with signs that directly conflict the agenda a pre-planned rally, that's crazy.
I highly doubt that they were out on a jolly stroll and they just happened to come across a Democratic rally. The man was fully aware of the circumstances, and he brought his own kids right into it.
Okay, hold on there, allow me to get a bit technical for moment; To be fair, he was only holding that one kid up on his shoulders (prolly cuz' she was real small). Also, I'm not implying that he didn't pre-plan this venture or that he wasn't being a bit stupid for bringing his kids in on the political retalition, but I wouldn't say that it was really an "asshole" thing to do if he took into mind that it was people he was dealing with and not pushy......Uh....Boars.
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He has every right to protest something, to voice his opinion, but to bring your kids into a situation when you know brandishing a contradictory sign will be viewed as hostile; that's ridiculous.
I stress again (in the form of a question): Is that necessarily violently hostile?
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The guy wasn't going to get a pleasant reaction, and he knew that.
But who's to say that he was going for any sort of physical OR verbal unpleasentness? Like I said before, considering these were rational human beings (and he knows this), why is it so conclusive that they would get rowdy any sort of way rather than brood at his presence? They're the ones trying to excerise what they think to be their enlightening opinions and then they go off and do this. They're definitely more to blame than him, by far.
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Should he have entertained the idea that his presence there would not have been appreciated, and that he could have been met by verbal harrassment? Absolutely. Putting your children in a potentially disruptive position like this is borderline abusive.
Not to say that he had this planned from the start (considering he went to the 96' campaign without his kids), but the fact that adolescents were there should have deterred the reaction in the first place. He said so himself that he didn't think that hostilities would go that far, so did his kid. Now, if he repeated this venture, then I would agree with your sentiment.
And I think it should be noted that most of those kids were mature enough to know what was going on. And just because an 11 or 12 year old is a minor, that doesn't mean he's not mature. I mean, Louis seems pretty well spoken from that post MEM submitted.
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What possible reason could he have for doing so?
He wanted more signs to be seen so his message would be noticed obviously. That's not really an excuse, but taking in the fact he didn't bother to bring his small tottlers last time, I'm assuming he brougt the three year old cuz' there was no one else to watch her. And if it was his sons alone, then I don't think there would really be an issue in this sense.
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I didn't think this was an issue. An issue has two sides, two stances, a reasonable area for debate. This thread just seemed like wbam blasting liberals with a loaded question diguised as an "issue".
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