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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
PrincessElisa said:
I think its important to teach both views! The school's are already teaching evolution which is still a theory and not a fact. I'm in favor of Creationism...the sciences sure point towards it more. Kids should be able to get both sides of the fence and left to decide for themselves.
Also, though I can't speak for her, Batwoman appears to believe in Creationism over the Theory of Evolution.
I believe in Creationism over Evolution too, but I think in the public schoolls the debate should remain between Intellegent Design Theory and Evolutionary Theory.
Hey, Jim, I'm not sure exactly what your asking, but I do believe that no portion of the Bible is "complete". There is alot of history that is missing (as well it should be, if anyone should hope to read it), but I do believe it's sufficiant. If that isn't an answer to your question, please elaborate.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
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wannabuyamonkey said:
OK, quick show of hands people! Who thinks that the Genisis account should be taught in PUBLIC SCIENCE classes rather than just intellegent design?
No. Should not.
I meant on my side of the isle 
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I believe in Creationism over Evolution too, but I think in the public schoolls the debate should remain between Intellegent Design Theory and Evolutionary Theory.
Okay, scratch out Batwoman from that list of two, unless she says otherwise.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I believe in Creationism over Evolution too, but I think in the public schoolls the debate should remain between Intellegent Design Theory and Evolutionary Theory.
OK. What I've never understood is why people can't believe in both. Why can't an intelligent being have put into motion micro- and macroevolutionary processes? Does a Creationist viewpoint automatically deem invalid an Evolutionary Theory viewpoint?
Quote:
Hey, Jim, I'm not sure exactly what your asking, but I do believe that no portion of the Bible is "complete". There is alot of history that is missing (as well it should be, if anyone should hope to read it), but I do believe it's sufficiant. If that isn't an answer to your question, please elaborate.
I have seen some hardcore Christians argue that the Bible's Genesis Story is complete and accurate. If it's not spelled out in those passages, it didn't happen. Like dinosaurs. They're not mentioned, so they never happened. Fossil evidence is just argued for by humans who want to denounced and deny God. Or the Noah story, that Noah IN FACT took two of every species of animal onto the Arc.
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There's no simple answer as to the exact processes that put everything here, IMO. We can poke around all we want, but I seriously doubt we'd be able to find out just how God chose to put everything together in the foreseeable future.
I've never been a fan of 'pure' science, personally. With all the money being dumped into it, I feel scientific research should concentrate more on the application of what we already know to develop technologies and solutions that improve our daily lives and can be used to improve the quality of life for people in impoverished and technologically underdeveloped parts of the world. You know, make things cheaper, easier to make, easier to distribute, stuff like that.
Obviously, we need to keep doing some of this sort of poking around - think how many technologies in our everyday lives today were just theoretical fifty years ago. But I think a lot of time, effort, and money is being wasted on too many dead ends in science as it is, and if we concentrate too much on this debate as to how we got here, we'll just walk ourselves into that many more dead ends. The possibilities for scientific discovery may seem limitless, but some things are a lot easier to get to than others, and they're escaping our notice at the moment because we can't seem to be able to prioritize.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
OK. What I've never understood is why people can't believe in both. Why can't an intelligent being have put into motion micro- and macroevolutionary processes? Does a Creationist viewpoint automatically deem invalid an Evolutionary Theory viewpoint?
Precisely my point.
Very good. I approve.
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
I have seen some hardcore Christians argue that the Bible's Genesis Story is complete and accurate. If it's not spelled out in those passages, it didn't happen. Like dinosaurs. They're not mentioned, so they never happened. Fossil evidence is just argued for by humans who want to denounced and deny God. Or the Noah story, that Noah IN FACT took two of every species of animal onto the Arc.
Literalists, I believe is the term.
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Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
I've never been a fan of 'pure' science, personally. With all the money being dumped into it, I feel scientific research should concentrate more on the application of what we already know to develop technologies and solutions that improve our daily lives and can be used to improve the quality of life for people in impoverished and technologically underdeveloped parts of the world. You know, make things cheaper, easier to make, easier to distribute, stuff like that.
Obviously, we need to keep doing some of this sort of poking around - think how many technologies in our everyday lives today were just theoretical fifty years ago. But I think a lot of time, effort, and money is being wasted on too many dead ends in science as it is, and if we concentrate too much on this debate as to how we got here, we'll just walk ourselves into that many more dead ends. The possibilities for scientific discovery may seem limitless, but some things are a lot easier to get to than others, and they're escaping our notice at the moment because we can't seem to be able to prioritize.
Could you explain what you think those dead ends are?
My personal belief, by the way, is that there are no dead ends. There are only things we do not yet understand.
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Wednesday: T Y for the term.
Last edited by Jim Jackson; 2004-11-09 5:11 PM.
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Dead ends is probably a bit excessive. I'm mainly referring to lines of research that don't appear to promise any real-world returns in the near future. For example, why are we searching the skies for Earthlike planets if we generally agree that it'd be impossible to get to any of them in our lifetime? Or why are we looking for remnants of a supposed 'Big Bang' when even its proponents agree that we are separated from it by billions of years? Why do we poke around looking for things that don't impact us?
It's not that they're not important. That's not what I'm saying. It's just that we have more imminent concerns right now. Like the fact that a sizable percentage of the people on this planet don't have access to clean water and regular medical care. I look at how much effort we're sinking into proving our own personal versions of the origin of the universe and life on Earth, in particular, and I look at how much effort we're sinking into those more imminent things, and I wonder about our priorities.
I've always had more of an engineer's perspective than a scientist's perspective, I think. I like to concentrate on application rather than theory when it comes to scientific research. But there's plenty of room for both.
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Well...
Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
For example, why are we searching the skies for Earthlike planets if we generally agree that it'd be impossible to get to any of them in our lifetime?
I believe we do so in search of intelligent life on other planets. We're working under the assumption that good ol' water is one of the basic requirements for life. If we do, somehow, make contact with someone who can reach us, they will almost undoubtedly bring with them knowledge that we don't have.
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Captain Sammitch said:
Or why are we looking for remnants of a supposed 'Big Bang' when even its proponents agree that we are separated from it by billions of years?
For the same reason people read Genesis.
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Captain Sammitch said:
It's just that we have more imminent concerns right now. Like the fact that a sizable percentage of the people on this planet don't have access to clean water and regular medical care. I look at how much effort we're sinking into proving our own personal versions of the origin of the universe and life on Earth, in particular, and I look at how much effort we're sinking into those more imminent things, and I wonder about our priorities.
I agree with you that there are important concerns that go maladressed, but I don't think we allocate more resources to scientific endeavors. I can't back that up, though, and if you know some numbers that prove otherwise...
Quote:
Captain Sammitch said:
I've always had more of an engineer's perspective than a scientist's perspective, I think. I like to concentrate on application rather than theory when it comes to scientific research. But there's plenty of room for both.
Very good. I approve.
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OK. What I've never understood is why people can't believe in both. Why can't an intelligent being have put into motion micro- and macroevolutionary processes? Does a Creationist viewpoint automatically deem invalid an Evolutionary Theory viewpoint?
An intellegent being, God, COULD have put into motion the evolutionary processes, I just don't believe He did.
Quote:
I have seen some hardcore Christians argue that the Bible's Genesis Story is complete and accurate. If it's not spelled out in those passages, it didn't happen. Like dinosaurs. They're not mentioned, so they never happened. Fossil evidence is just argued for by humans who want to denounced and deny God. Or the Noah story, that Noah IN FACT took two of every species of animal onto the Arc.
Not to correct Wednesday, but the term is Wooden-Literalist. I am what would be called a literallist meaning that instead of taking the Bible to an extreme literal point as you mentioned. I view it as any liturature in that there are historical narritives poetic narratives, didactic narratives, even fictional stories, like the parrables of Jesus, but I attemt not to confuse them for one an other. So a wooden literalist would say that there weere no Dinasaurs because the Bible doesn't mention them, I would say that there's no reason to deny the evidence that they clearly existed and be perfectly happy, because the scriptures don't rule them out.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
An intellegent being, God, COULD have put into motion the evolutionary processes, I just don't believe He did.
A. Who did, then?
B. Or are there no evolutionary processes?
C. Then what do you make of the evolutionary evidence that is available?
Last edited by Jim Jackson; 2004-11-09 5:44 PM.
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A. Who did, then?
B. Or are there no evolutionary processes?
C. Then what do you make of the evolutionary evidence that is available?
A & B: I was a little brief and meant only macro interspeciese evolution.
C: There is no conclusive evidence of Macro-evolution.
Now, I gotta go play Halo 2, be back later.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
PrincessElisa said:
I think its important to teach both views! The school's are already teaching evolution which is still a theory and not a fact. I'm in favor of Creationism...the sciences sure point towards it more. Kids should be able to get both sides of the fence and left to decide for themselves.
Also, though I can't speak for her, Batwoman appears to believe in Creationism over the Theory of Evolution.
Key words there, why don't you answer the question for yourself and let others do the same. I never asked you to post for me, nor do you know what I think of evolution vs creation.
It's a rented tux ok? I'm not going comando in another man's fatigues.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I believe in Creationism over Evolution too, but I think in the public schoolls the debate should remain between Intellegent Design Theory and Evolutionary Theory.
Okay, scratch out Batwoman from that list of two, unless she says otherwise.
See my post above this.
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Quote:
Batwoman said:
Key words there, why don't you answer the question for yourself and let others do the same. I never asked you to post for me, nor do you know what I think of evolution vs creation.
If you read my post again, Batwoman, I'm sure you'll see that I made sure it was clear I wasn't answering for you. In fact, the words you bolded are the exact words that support that fact.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
 I love that a website puts the flat eart society on the top of the list of creationisnts....
The website was talking about a range of beliefs that exist among creationists. The site just started with the most extreme one & worked it way down to more moderate ones.
Fair play!
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Quote:
If you read my post again, Batwoman, I'm sure you'll see that I made sure it was clear I wasn't answering for you. In fact, the words you bolded are the exact words that support that fact.
I know, but my point was, don't answer for someone even like that, if you don't kow the answer, especially when you don't know the answer and know what the person will say/feel.
You don't know what I believe and what I don't and I don't appreciate you're answering for me, because in a sense that's what you were doing by throwing my name in there and saying I'd believe in that, then saying I wouldn't in the very next post. I may not be posting to this thread as much as you and some others because I have a life which demands more of my time than I have to waste here or care to for that matter.
Last edited by Batwoman; 2004-11-10 12:37 AM.
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I'm gonna let you go now, kay?
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Quote:
Batwoman said:
I may not be posting to this thread as much as you and some others because I have a life which demands more of my time than I have to waste here or care to for that matter.
Why bother posting here at all, then? I mean, it seems to me by using the words "I have a life" and "waste" here, you've insinuated the rest of us don't have lives and are wasting time.
You could just as easily have said, "Hey, I've been really busy" and "I don't have a lot of time to spend posting here right now." Far friendlier than what you did post.
Not good form, really, on your part, and it pretty much insures I won't bother reading what you have to say when you do take time out of your busy life to waste time posting something here.
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I didn't say that because I'm sick and tired of saying it. I feel like I've been saying it constantly every where I post.
I'm tired of playing nice and feeling like I can't speak my mind for fear of hurting somoene's feelings.
So you're not going to read my posts because of the way I worded that, my world wont come to an end as a result, I'll live.
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dut dut dut and another thread bites the dust.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
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wannabuyamonkey said:
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Wednesday said:
Or the story of creation?
nope.
And here we begin the classic argument about the apocryphal (or not) nature of the Genesis Story.
Nope, you can, but while not willing to concede the point, I don't think that's a debate best served on a message board. I also don't think it's relevent for THIS discussion since I am willing to concede that it shouldn't be taught in science class. I'll just say that while I do believe the Genesis account to be accurate, I don't think it's fundemental in an understanding of the gospel...... perhaps when this thread dies down we can start one on that (the gospel, not Genesis)
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I'm game, but my brain is too Halo fried to start one without a prompt. So ask me a question and I'll start a thread to answer it.
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And since I'm into all CS Lewis, "Roughly two views have been held. First there is a materialist view. People who take that view think that matter and space just happen to exist, and always have existed but nobody knows why; and that the matter, behaving in certain fixed ways, has just happened, by a sort of fluke, to produce creatures like ourselves who are able to think. By one chance ina thousand something hit our sun and made it produce the plaents; and by another thousandth chance the chemicals necessary for life, and the right temperature, occured one one of those planets, and thus the matter on earth came alive, and then, by a very long series of chances, the living creatures developed into thinks like us.
The other view is the religious view. According to it, what is behind the universe is more like a mind that it is like anything else we know. That is to say it is conscious, and has purposes, and prefers one thing to another. And on this view it made the universe, partly for purposes we do not know, but partly to produce creatures like itself-capable to the extent of having minds."
I thought that was cool.
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You realize that the world is like the Matrix? Just replace the 1s and 0s with quarks and electrons, and the computer programmer with God.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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thats a cool thought pw.....never thought of it that way :P
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 You should have heard our Matrix series (at church). Don't know if it's still up on the web or not, but it was pretty cool. They even showed a short piece of the movie each week and referred to the movie. I laugh when I think about what the one senior pastor did to freak out the other one the first service of the first week of it. hehehe Just wish I could have been there to see the other one freak out thinking he had to come up with a sermon in about 5 minutes. LOL
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The Matrix is a sci-fi telling of teh Gnostic gospel.
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After the first one, the Matrix sucked poop from a vacuum.
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Church would be cooler in bullet-time.
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extend church by 35t? HELL no! It's long and boring enough already! Collumbine would have been less shocking in bullet time though.
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"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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Whaddaya care? You don't go anyway. Do ya?
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I totally meant that the priests and preachers would be doing kung-fu to crescendos of trumpets and brass sections.
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If you drop your Communion wafer in bullet-time you have at least three chances to grab it before it hits the carpet.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Whaddaya care? You don't go anyway.
Do ya?
I went every Sunday for eighteen years straight. I know of what I talketh.
....heck, I've been to Christian, Catholic, Baptist, Lutherine and, yes, even a Mormon Temple a couple times. My best friend was mormon.
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"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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Quote:
Fused said:
Church would be cooler in bullet-time.
Are you kidding? Church is long enough as it is!
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Yeah, but the bullets would liven it up.
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