|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,000
5000+ posts
|
OP
5000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,000 |
I admit there are quite a few topics in this forum that I could post this in, but I wanted to give it it's thread for a few reasons. I only ask that the discussion remain within the parameters of the following e-mail that I recived.
The university professor challenged his students with this question.
"Did God create everything that exists?"
A student bravely replied, "Yes, he did!"
"God created everything?" The professor asked.
"Yes sir", the student replied.
The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then God is evil."
The student became quiet before such an answer. The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.
Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?"
"Of course," replied the professor.
The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"
"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?"
The students snickered at the young man's question.
The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460° F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."
The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"
The professor responded, "Of course it does."
The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space
is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."
Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"
Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it every day. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is not like faith, or love that exist just as does light and heat. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
The professor sat down.
Thoughts?
Last edited by PenWing; 2005-03-31 1:15 AM.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 28,009
Inglourious Basterd!!! 15000+ posts
|
|
Inglourious Basterd!!! 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 28,009 |
That was not a very funny joke. Where was the punchline?
Uschi said:I won't rape you, I'll just fuck you 'till it hurts and then not stop and you'll cry. MisterJLA: RACKS so hard, he called Jim Rome "Chris Everett." In Him, all porn is possible. He is far above mentions in so-called "blogs." RACK him, lest ye be lost! "I can't even brush my teeth without gagging!" - Tommy Tantillo: Wank & Cry, heckpuppy, and general laughingstock ![[Linked Image from i6.photobucket.com]](http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/JoeMama13/RedSoxBanner05.png)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,794 Likes: 3
Doog the MIGHTY 10000+ posts
|
|
Doog the MIGHTY 10000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 10,794 Likes: 3 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,000
5000+ posts
|
|
OP
5000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,000 |
All right, editing out the probably false part of the e-mail, what about the arguement itself? That is why I posted it. Is it valid? Does it prove anything? Does it disprove anything?
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 28,009
Inglourious Basterd!!! 15000+ posts
|
|
Inglourious Basterd!!! 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 28,009 |
It's an interesting way to answer, through the Socratic method of dialogue, a theological question. However, for it to be valid, both sides need to agree that the opposite of hot is cold, of light is dark, and of God is evil. the third one may not be so readily accepted. Therefore the argument, while interesting, is flawed.
Uschi said:I won't rape you, I'll just fuck you 'till it hurts and then not stop and you'll cry. MisterJLA: RACKS so hard, he called Jim Rome "Chris Everett." In Him, all porn is possible. He is far above mentions in so-called "blogs." RACK him, lest ye be lost! "I can't even brush my teeth without gagging!" - Tommy Tantillo: Wank & Cry, heckpuppy, and general laughingstock
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
|
|
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618 |
I think it's a very good answer that begets more questions.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,000
5000+ posts
|
|
OP
5000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,000 |
Quote:
Wednesday said:
I think it's a very good answer that begets more questions.
Like?
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,948
4000+ posts
|
|
4000+ posts
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,948 |
"Why would anyone accept that as a valid argument?"
Thing is- I can’t spell or type. I spell so badly my spell check doesn’t even know what I was trying to spell. And I have five Eisners HAHAHAHHA!!
-Brian Michael Bendis
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
|
|
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618 |
Quote:
PenWing said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
I think it's a very good answer that begets more questions.
Like?
If God is omnipresent, how can evil, or "the lack of God," exist?
Why would God create a universe where there is, in some instances, a lack of him?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,000
5000+ posts
|
|
OP
5000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,000 |
Quote:
Wednesday said:
If God is omnipresent, how can evil, or "the lack of God," exist?
Why would God create a universe where there is, in some instances, a lack of him?
I don't have an answer for the first question. As for the second, God created us with free will. That free will allows us to chose whether to make God a part of out lives, or not.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
|
|
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
If it were true, I'd have to buy that student a drink. Although, I do find he's created a bit of a double-standard with cold and darkness, he is correct that the concept of evil originated with the concept of God (or lack thereof). Same goes with law. Same goes with structural morality.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
|
|
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
Stupid Doog said:
Status: False
Quote:
Though the numerous stories employing that stereotype might lead some to believe otherwise, it is not as if Society is suddenly up to its knees in atheist professors hell-bent upon beating the religion out of their charges. The key to understanding the allure of these tales lies in this one line from the "evil is the absence of God" story:
Bullshit.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,000
5000+ posts
|
|
OP
5000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,000 |
Anyone want to steer Uschi to this thread? As resident scientist, I am curious to see what her response is to the above questions.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
|
|
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
Anyone here can be a scientist. You just gotta read the right books and bullshit the right arguments. It's as simple as that.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 24,106
faggot 15000+ posts
|
|
faggot 15000+ posts
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 24,106 |
The first time I saw this it was in some Catholic newsletter my mom subscribes to. Sounds like pompous holier than thou arseholes on both sides. Rarely are professors THAT arrogant and rarely are the arrogant religous nuts THAT witty. Plus I don't believe it follows. Quote:
The university professor challenged his students with this question.
"Did God create everything that exists?"
A student bravely replied, "Yes, he did!"
"God created everything?" The professor asked.
"Yes sir", the student replied.
The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then God is evil."
The student became quiet before such an answer.
Up to here it seems like this is the introduction into a lecture about a certain type of logical progression. Conductive reasoning, if I'm not mistaken.
Quote:
The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the Christian faith was a myth.
This is a personal opinion held by the professor. The student then launches on a tangent based on the teacher's baseless comment. The tangent the student goes on only shows more examples of the type of logical reasoning the professor was probably going to go into. Anyone who is teaching something like this would, I sincerely hope, be strong enough mentally to not let A ) themselves get debased by a stupid opinion of their own or B ) the student derail the lecture for their own personal agenda as a response to said baseless remark.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 24,106
faggot 15000+ posts
|
|
faggot 15000+ posts
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 24,106 |
Quote:
PenWing said:
Anyone want to steer Uschi to this thread? As resident scientist, I am curious to see what her response is to the above questions.
heh
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,680
1500+ posts
|
|
1500+ posts
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,680 |
Quote:
PenWing said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
If God is omnipresent, how can evil, or "the lack of God," exist?
Why would God create a universe where there is, in some instances, a lack of him?
I don't have an answer for the first question. As for the second, God created us with free will. That free will allows us to chose whether to make God a part of out lives, or not.
Plus, Satan likes to drag people to his side, and so he'll get them to sin (for lack of a better word).
It's a rented tux ok? I'm not going comando in another man's fatigues.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,948
4000+ posts
|
|
4000+ posts
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 4,948 |
Heat and light are tangible things that can be scientifically measured. God boasts no such status. The argument doesn't follow.
Thing is- I can’t spell or type. I spell so badly my spell check doesn’t even know what I was trying to spell. And I have five Eisners HAHAHAHHA!!
-Brian Michael Bendis
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 24,106
faggot 15000+ posts
|
|
faggot 15000+ posts
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 24,106 |
Quote:
Danny said:
Heat and light are tangible things that can be scientifically measured. God boasts no such status. The argument doesn't follow.
SHUT THE FUCK UP, DANNY! actually, I agree.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
|
|
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
Danny said:
Heat and light are tangible things that can be scientifically measured. God boasts no such status. The argument doesn't follow.
The e-mail didn't try to compare God's presence to measuring heat or darkness.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,353
Award-Winning Author 10000+ posts
|
|
Award-Winning Author 10000+ posts
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12,353 |
Does this thread have anything to do with God having a time machine??
Knutreturns said: Spoken like the true Greatest RDCW Champ!
All hail King Snarf!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
|
|
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618 |
Quote:
PenWing said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
If God is omnipresent, how can evil, or "the lack of God," exist?
Why would God create a universe where there is, in some instances, a lack of him?
I don't have an answer for the first question. As for the second, God created us with free will. That free will allows us to chose whether to make God a part of out lives, or not.
That doesn't really tell me why, however.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
|
|
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
|
|
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618 |
That doesn't answer my question either.
But to answer yours, if God is both omnipotent and all-loving, then it doesn't make logical sense for God to create a universe where it is possible for God's creations (i.e. us) to go to Hell and be subjected to an eternity of pain and anguish.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 920
500+ posts
|
|
500+ posts
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 920 |
Of course though, the popular concept of hell is also debatable. Quote:
Thanks in large part to its evil reputation, this valley bordering Jerusalem came to be used as the city garbage dump. Trash was burned there, along with the bodies of dead animals and criminals. Fires day and night consumed the refuse.
Inferno to destroy the wicked
Gehenna is used 12 times in the Bible, with 11 of those recording Christ's words. When Jesus spoke of gehenna, His listeners knew that this "hell" was a consuming fire in which garbage and the bodies of the wicked were destroyed. He bluntly warned that this destroying fire would be the fate of the incorrigibly wicked (Matthew 5:22, 29-30; 23:15, 33; Luke 12:5).
But when would this take place? Many of those who opposed Christ were among the religious and civil leadership of His day; they weren't treated as criminals, with their bodies burned in the city dump. Christ knew that their ultimate judgment, along with that of the overwhelming majority of humanity throughout history, would be far in the future (as made clear throughout this booklet).
After being resurrected, those who are shown God's way but still refuse to repent will face gehenna fire, an all-consuming inferno that will completely destroy them and all memory of them, with no hope of further resurrection (Matthew 10:28).
The book of Revelation calls this inferno "the lake of fire" (Revelation 19:20; 20:10, 14-15). In the time frame revealed in the Bible, this follows 1,000 years of Christ's reign on earth (Revelation 20:1-6) and a resurrection to physical life of all those who have never known God and His ways (verses 5, 11-13). Those resurrected at that time will have the opportunity to learn God's ways, repent and receive His gift of eternal life.
Some, however, will refuse that gift. The Bible records their tragic epitaph: "And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire" (verse 15).
Those who willingly choose to reject God's way will not be allowed to continue living in the misery their choice will bring. They will die, not suffer forever. They will be consumed in this fire, leaving nothing but ashes (Malachi 4:1-3). An examination of all the words translated "hell" shows that the traditional view of an ever-burning place of torment where the wicked are punished for eternity cannot be found in the Bible.
The Biblical View of 'Hell'
The popular view of hell has IMO more to do with Dante than with anything expressed by Jesus.
Hell in a Peanut Shell
(Hell is an Evolved Concept)
Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers
"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." - George W. Bush
I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would .. try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile. - Condoleeza Rice
Barbara Bush: It's Good Enough for the Poor
To comfort the powerless and make the powerful uncomfortable.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
|
|
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
Wednesday said:
But to answer yours, if God is both omnipotent and all-loving, then it doesn't make logical sense for God to create a universe where it is possible for God's creations (i.e. us) to go to Hell and be subjected to an eternity of pain and anguish.
Y'see, that's the problem. You're going on purely your speculations and expectations of an omnipotent God. "Logical sense" is relative in the face of such a concept. The complexity of that logic is such that it wouldn't be so easily understood by you or me. Essentially, I just think you're looking in the wrong direction; focusing too much on things in the literal sense, which implies the standards of today as your focal point for observation and not scrutinizing enough the causual effects of the world around us.
Also, if you're basing your standards for an all-loving and ominpotent God off of the Christian/Judeo theology, then you gotta take one thing with the other. The Christian faith says He's all loving and that's pretty much the setiment scrutinized and listened to the most. The problem is that its face value of eternal love is apparently all people need to hear (or so they think). There's more to it than that--There's an outlined guide and philosophy on how to return that love and benefit from it, which goes hand in hand with exact reasons of why people suffer (because they move away from God).
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
|
|
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
unrestrained id said:
Those who willingly choose to reject God's way will not be allowed to continue living in the misery their choice will bring. They will die, not suffer forever. They will be consumed in this fire, leaving nothing but ashes (Malachi 4:1-3). An examination of all the words translated "hell" shows that the traditional view of an ever-burning place of torment where the wicked are punished for eternity cannot be found in the Bible.
Apparently, this writer has never heard of resurrection of the body.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
|
|
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618 |
Quote:
Pariah said:
Y'see, that's the problem. You're going on purely your speculations and expectations of an omnipotent God. "Logical sense" is relative in the face of such a concept. The complexity of that logic is such that it wouldn't be so easily understood by you or me. Essentially, I just think you're looking in the wrong direction; focusing too much on things in the literal sense, which implies the standards of today as your focal point for observation and not scrutinizing enough the causual effects of the world around us.
Also, if you're basing your standards for an all-loving and ominpotent God off of the Christian/Judeo theology, then you gotta take one thing with the other. The Christian faith says He's all loving and that's pretty much the setiment scrutinized and listened to the most. The problem is that its face value of eternal love is apparently all people need to hear (or so they think). There's more to it than that--There's an outlined guide and philosophy on how to return that love and benefit from it, which goes hand in hand with exact reasons of why people suffer (because they move away from God).
But again this doesn't answer my question. It just repeats the old adage "God works in mysterious ways."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
|
|
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
You're asking "Why not?" based off of segmented information and I gave you an answer whilst filling in the blanks.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
|
|
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618 |
Okay, what information is segmented, and what blanks are you filling in? I'm obviously missing something here. The way I see it, you're giving answers that can not be substantiated because they are based on a circular logic: - An all-powerful and all-loving (and, thus, beyond our capabilities to grasp) God created us.
- God created us imperfect and capable of committing sins despite the fact that God is all-powerful and could have made us otherwise, and we will go to Hell if we commit those sins despite the fact that God is all-loving.
- However, we can not begin to assertain the logic of this because God is all-powerful and all-loving (and, thus, beyond our capabilities to grasp).
Is that right?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
|
|
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Okay, what information is segmented, and what blanks are you filling in? I'm obviously missing something here.
The info fragment was God loving us. My filling in the blank was God expecting us to return it.
Quote:
God created us imperfect and capable of committing sins despite the fact that God is all-powerful and could have made us otherwise, and we will go to Hell if we commit those sins despite the fact that God is all-loving.
Keyword to this statement is "perfect" We were not created unperfect. We were indeed created perfectly. As God has free will and his own form, we also have free will and His form. We are not, however, infallible. And taking away that ability to be fallible would also take away our ability to actually choose to love Him, thus, our existence would be even more pointless than you think it is now.
Quote:
However, we can not begin to assertain the logic of this because God is all-powerful and all-loving (and, thus, beyond our capabilities to grasp).
I didn't say we couldn't begin to, I said it wouldn't be easily understood. That said, I do believe we could fully understand God's plan and that it is merely difficult to do so. Beginning to understand it, I feel, lies in people effecting other people depending on what they do. Simply put: I feel that causality is the key to understanding it. It is true that this is where my faith kicks in because I'll never know for sure, while I am alive, whether or not the chain reaction of sorrow and evil in the world was caused by negative action or a positive action, but...By golly, I'd certainly stake my livelihood on it.
Anyway, While the last part of statement is subjective (although I do think it is able to be proven), I feel I've shown that my reasoning isn't circular.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
|
|
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618 |
Quote:
Pariah said:
Keyword to this statement is "perfect" We were not created unperfect. We were indeed created perfectly. As God has free will and his own form, we also have free will and His form. We are not, however, infallible.
So you are saying that we are perfect despite our lack of knowledge and ability to err.
Does God lack knowledge and have the ability to do wrong? If not, then I don't see how you can say we're perfect when there exists a being greater in these respects to us? If so, then this back and forth will take a whole other direction.
Quote:
Pariah said:
And taking away that ability to be fallible would also take away our ability to actually choose to love Him
Again, why would an all-powerful and all-loving God give us the ability to choose NOT to love God when the choice brings such horrible results?
This does not make sense no matter how you try to redirect it.
Either God is not all-powerful, God is not all-loving, we HAVE to choose to love God, the choice of not loving God does not result in Hell, or Hell is not all that horrible.
If it's one of those or something else that I haven't thought of THAT MAKES SENSE, let me know.
Quote:
Pariah said:
thus, our existence would be even more pointless than you think it is now.
I never said our existence was pointless.
Quote:
Pariah said:
I didn't say we couldn't begin to, I said it wouldn't be easily understood. That said, I do believe we could fully understand God's plan and that it is merely difficult to do so. Beginning to understand it, I feel, lies in people effecting other people depending on what they do. Simply put: I feel that causality is the key to understanding it. It is true that this is where my faith kicks in because I'll never know for sure, while I am alive, whether or not the chain reaction of sorrow and evil in the world was caused by negative action or a positive action, but...By golly, I'd certainly stake my livelihood on it.
Fair enough. You've made a leap of blind faith. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Of course, if this is the case, you can understand and respect others who do not see it this way, and you can understand how your leap of faith can not be used to substantiate your argument.
Quote:
Pariah said:
Anyway, While the last part of statement is subjective (although I do think it is able to be proven), I feel I've shown that my reasoning isn't circular.
I still don't see where you've added anything new that breaks the circle. From my understanding, the one element you've added is faith. Your argument still goes:- An all-powerful and all-loving (and, thus, beyond our capabilities to easily grasp) God created us.
- God created us capable of committing sins despite the fact that God is all-powerful and could have made us otherwise, and we will go to Hell if we commit those sins despite the fact that God is all-loving, and thus wants us to be happy.
- However, we can not easily assertain the logic of this because God is all-powerful and all-loving (and, thus, beyond our capabilities to easily grasp).
Break the second part and you'll have something. Otherwise...
One more thing, you say that we can not easily understand the logic, but that it can be understood. Do you believe that anyone has understood it, and if so who?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251 |
Quote:
Wednesday said:
That doesn't answer my question either.
But to answer yours, if God is both omnipotent and all-loving, then it doesn't make logical sense for God to create a universe where it is possible for God's creations (i.e. us) to go to Hell and be subjected to an eternity of pain and anguish.
It may not make sense, but that doesn't mean it's illogical.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,000
5000+ posts
|
|
OP
5000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,000 |
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
PenWing said:
Quote:
Wednesday said:
If God is omnipresent, how can evil, or "the lack of God," exist?
Why would God create a universe where there is, in some instances, a lack of him?
I don't have an answer for the first question. As for the second, God created us with free will. That free will allows us to chose whether to make God a part of our lives, or not.
That doesn't really tell me why, however.
I think your asking the wrong question. I think the right question is:
Why did God give us free will?
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,680
1500+ posts
|
|
1500+ posts
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,680 |
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Okay, what information is segmented, and what blanks are you filling in? I'm obviously missing something here.
The way I see it, you're giving answers that can not be substantiated because they are based on a circular logic:- An all-powerful and all-loving (and, thus, beyond our capabilities to grasp) God created us.
- God created us imperfect and capable of committing sins despite the fact that God is all-powerful and could have made us otherwise, and we will go to Hell if we commit those sins despite the fact that God is all-loving.
- However, we can not begin to assertain the logic of this because God is all-powerful and all-loving (and, thus, beyond our capabilities to grasp).
Is that right?
Adam and Eve were created without sin, and were given paradise to live in. The only thing was they couldn't eat from the tree of knowledge. They left it alone until Satan came to Eve in the form of a snake. It was after they both ate the fruit from that tree that things changed.
It's a rented tux ok? I'm not going comando in another man's fatigues.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,000
5000+ posts
|
|
OP
5000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,000 |
Quote:
Wednesday said:
But to answer yours, if God is both omnipotent and all-loving, then it doesn't make logical sense for God to create a universe where it is possible for God's creations (i.e. us) to go to Hell and be subjected to an eternity of pain and anguish.
I wasn't planning on commenting on this aspect of the conversation, but something was mentioned so I want you to be able to split your debate.
As a Jew, my version of hell is very different from the Christian version. I think DK posted something about it on his Judaism101 thread.
As I said, I wasn't going to make a comment until Batwoman posted the following:
Quote:
Batwoman said:
Adam and Eve were created without sin, and were given paradise to live in. The only thing was they couldn't eat from the tree of knowledge. They left it alone until Satan came to Eve in the form of a snake. It was after they both ate the fruit from that tree that things changed.
I had an interesting conversation with some Witnesses a while back, and I have found that many Christians (if not all) are obsessed with the Garden of Eden.
As a Jew, I look at it very differently. God gave Adam and Eve free will. God told Adam, before Eve was created, not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge or he will die. When Eve was created, Adam instructed Eve not only to refrain from eating from the tree but also not to touch the Tree of Knowledge or she will die. When the snake came to Eve, he had a conversation, and he brought up the Tree of Knowledge. Eve said if she touches it, she will surely die. The snake said that was hogwash, and convinced her to touch it. Nothing happened. The snake went on the tell her that if Adam lied about any harm coming to her for merely touching the tree, than of course there is nothing wrong with eating from it. Eve ate from the tree. She went to Adam, and he chose to eat from the tree as well. They were given tremendous knowledge, and discovered modesty and other things. They chose to go against God's word, Eve because she was misinstructed, and Adam because, well, I don't know. But it was his choice.
The Garden of Eden was a test. It was a perfect world. But even in a perfect world, it seems we have the choice to disobey, and to leave. What does this mean? In a perfect world, there is no death, for one. So when Adam and Eve ate from the tree, they chose to become mortal, from one point of view. In a way, maybe it can be said that Adam chose the imperfect world. While Christians call this Adam's fall from Grace, I look at it very differently. How could Adam have fallen from Grace if he never had the oportunity to chose it in the first place? How could he fall from Grace if he didn't trully understand what Grace was. The Garden of Eden was perfect, and Adam and Eve would have lived for eternity. But, maybe because they didn't understand what they were doing, they chose mortality. Or, maybe, Adam knew full well what he was doing, and he realized that his wife and their children would not be able to truly love God if He handed everything to them. Maybe he chose to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge so that he would have the wisdom to live in the imperfect world, a world where man would have to find his way back to God, but would be better able to appreciate God's wonder in the process. In any case, it is our free will that allows us to discover God, in all of His wonder, through all of His creations and His sciences.
I really have no answer for why God gave us free will, except that the only way for any of His creations to know of His existance and to truly be obediant to Him, is they need to be able to choose this path.
What good is it to have a robot that is programmed to obey you? The robot does everything you command, without question. If you ask this robot if it loves you, it will say yes. But will it understand what it means to say yes? Will it understand what it means to love it's creator?
If we had no free will, we would merely be blind servants of God, and we would not truly be able to appreciate His wonder, His awe, His majesty.
I don't know if this does anything to answer the question of why God gave us free will, but maybe it's a start.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
|
|
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618 |
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
It may not make sense, but that doesn't mean it's illogical.
Nothing logical can be derived from the information given.
Quote:
Batwoman said:
Adam and Eve were created without sin, and were given paradise to live in. The only thing was they couldn't eat from the tree of knowledge. They left it alone until Satan came to Eve in the form of a snake. It was after they both ate the fruit from that tree that things changed.
Why plant the tree and provide temptation?
Quote:
PenWing said:
I had an interesting conversation with some Witnesses a while back, and I have found that many Christians (if not all) are obsessed with the Garden of Eden.
As a Jew, I look at it very differently. God gave Adam and Eve free will. God told Adam, before Eve was created, not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge or he will die. When Eve was created, Adam instructed Eve not only to refrain from eating from the tree but also not to touch the Tree of Knowledge or she will die. When the snake came to Eve, he had a conversation, and he brought up the Tree of Knowledge. Eve said if she touches it, she will surely die. The snake said that was hogwash, and convinced her to touch it. Nothing happened. The snake went on the tell her that if Adam lied about any harm coming to her for merely touching the tree, than of course there is nothing wrong with eating from it. Eve ate from the tree. She went to Adam, and he chose to eat from the tree as well. They were given tremendous knowledge, and discovered modesty and other things. They chose to go against God's word, Eve because she was misinstructed, and Adam because, well, I don't know. But it was his choice.
The Garden of Eden was a test. It was a perfect world. But even in a perfect world, it seems we have the choice to disobey, and to leave. What does this mean? In a perfect world, there is no death, for one. So when Adam and Eve ate from the tree, they chose to become mortal, from one point of view. In a way, maybe it can be said that Adam chose the imperfect world. While Christians call this Adam's fall from Grace, I look at it very differently. How could Adam have fallen from Grace if he never had the oportunity to chose it in the first place? How could he fall from Grace if he didn't trully understand what Grace was. The Garden of Eden was perfect, and Adam and Eve would have lived for eternity. But, maybe because they didn't understand what they were doing, they chose mortality. Or, maybe, Adam knew full well what he was doing, and he realized that his wife and their children would not be able to truly love God if He handed everything to them. Maybe he chose to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge so that he would have the wisdom to live in the imperfect world, a world where man would have to find his way back to God, but would be better able to appreciate God's wonder in the process. In any case, it is our free will that allows us to discover God, in all of His wonder, through all of His creations and His sciences.
I really have no answer for why God gave us free will, except that the only way for any of His creations to know of His existance and to truly be obediant to Him, is they need to be able to choose this path.
What good is it to have a robot that is programmed to obey you? The robot does everything you command, without question. If you ask this robot if it loves you, it will say yes. But will it understand what it means to say yes? Will it understand what it means to love it's creator?
If we had no free will, we would merely be blind servants of God, and we would not truly be able to appreciate His wonder, His awe, His majesty.
I don't know if this does anything to answer the question of why God gave us free will, but maybe it's a start.
The best answer so far.
Questions:
Why does a perfect God care if we give God our love? If God was the one who gave us the free will that allows us to not follow the right path, why is there an eternity in Hell awaiting those who do not choose that route?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251 |
Quote:
Nothing logical can be derived from the information given.
but that doesn't necesitate illogic. It just means the information is incomplete. Wich I would accept, there is much we don't know and much we haven't been told.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
|
|
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618 |
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
but that doesn't necesitate illogic. It just means the information is incomplete. Wich I would accept, there is much we don't know and much we haven't been told.
Then what you have is faith, not knowledge. That's perfectly fine, as long as you acknowledge it as such.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,281
Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
|
|
Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,281 |
Quote:
Wednesday said:
Why does a perfect God care if we give God our love? If God was the one who gave us the free will that allows us to not follow the right path, why is there an eternity in Hell awaiting those who do not choose that route?
I know not everyone in here agree's with me on this point...But He doesn't. The Bible never once refers to a literal hell. It is a construct of the church, and nothing more. He merely says that those who disobey him will not see a heavenly reward.
If karma's a bitch, it will be my bitch!
|
|
|
|
|
