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http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040311022609990005 Quote:
Tape Claims al-Qaida Was Behind Attacks
Three Moroccans and Two Indians Are Arrested
By JOHN LEICESTER, AP
MADRID, Spain (March 13) - In a videotaped message, a man purporting to represent al-Qaida claims the terrorist network was behind bombings that killed 200 and wounded 1,500 in Madrid, the Spanish interior minister said Saturday.
The tape - along with the arrest of three Moroccan and two Indian suspects - provide the strongest indication yet of a possible Islamic link to the attack on one of Washington's staunchest allies in Iraq. The Spanish government, however, said it could not confirm the tape's authenticity.
The announcement by Interior Minister Angel Acebes came just hours before polls were to open Sunday in general elections weighed down by debate over who carried out the attack.
''We declare our responsibility for what happened in Madrid exactly 2 1/2 years after the attacks on New York and Washington,'' said the man, according to a government translation of the tape, which was recorded in Arabic. ''It is a response to your collaboration with the criminals Bush and his allies.''
Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar has been a staunch supporter of the U.S.-led war in Iraq.
A London-based Arabic newspaper had earlier received a claim of responsibility in al-Qaida's name; but the government has been reluctant to blame the Islamic group, saying the Basque separatist group ETA was also a suspect. ETA denied responsibility.
Speaking at a hastily called post-midnight news conference at the interior ministry, Acebes said authorities could not confirm the claim was genuine. He said the videotape was discovered after an Arabic-speaking man called a Madrid TV station and said where it could be found.
A statement from the ministry said the speaker was identified as Abu Dujan al Afghani. Acebes said he claimed to be the military spokesman of Al-Qaida in Europe, but said he was not known to law enforcement authorities in Spain, and that they were checking the tape's authenticity.
The man threatened further attacks in the video.
''This is a response to the crimes that you caused in the world, and specifically in Iraq and Afghanistan, and there will be more if God wills it,'' the man said, according to the Spanish government's translation.
Thursday's attacks in Madrid came just days before Sunday's general elections in Spain. At demonstrations Saturday, some protesters said they believed the ruling party was playing down the possible link between the bombings and Spain's role in Iraq, fearing it would hurt the party's chances in the election.
About 5,000 people protested Saturday outside the ruling party headquarters in Madrid, holding up signs saying ''no more cover-up.''
One banner read: ''Aznar, because of you we all pay.''
''Maybe now the truth will come out,'' Fernando Hernandez, a college student, said after hearing about the arrests. ''All we want is the truth.''
Earlier Saturday, Acebes said the five suspects were arrested around Madrid. A spokesman for the Moroccan government identified the three Moroccans as as Jamal Zougam, 30; Mohamed Bekkali, 31, a mechanic; and Mohamed Chaoui, 34. All three are from northern Morocco, but the government gave no further details about them.
''One might have connections with Moroccan extremist groups. But it is still very early to establish to what degree,'' Acebes said. He did not name any group.
The five suspects were arrested after a gym bag packed with explosives and a cell phone was discovered on one of the four bombed rush-hour trains, the minister said. The attacks killed 200 people and injured 1,500.
Two Spaniards of Indian origin also were called for questioning but are not expected to be arrested, Acebes said.
Spanish citizens were among 33 people killed by suicide bombings that targeted Jewish targets and a Spanish restaurant close to the Spanish consulate in Casablanca, Morocco in May 2003.
Those attacks were blamed on Salafia Jihadia, a secretive, radical Islamic group thought by Moroccan authorities to have links to al-Qaida. Twelve suicide bombers also died.
Just months ago, a taped threat thought to be from al-Qaida terror chief Osama bin Laden had included Spain among countries that could be attacked ''at the appropriate time and place.''
A confirmed Islamic extremist involvement in the Madrid bombings could play into the hands of Aznar critics who opposed sending 1,300 peacekeepers to Iraq.
''If it was al-Qaida, this was a reprisal for sending troops to Iraq, where we have no business being,'' said Damian Garcia, whose 86-year-old father died in the bombings.
The government had sought to dampen such speculation. Acebes said earlier Saturday that autopsies conducted on victims showed no signs of suicide bombings - a hallmark of Islamic militants.
Pressure mounted for answers. The crowd outside the Popular Party headquarters chanted, ''We want the truth before voting.''
Aznar's hand-picked candidate to succeed him, Mariano Rajoy, charged that the rally violated a law banning political demonstrations on the day before an election.
''I hereby demand that the organizers of this illegal demonstration end this antidemocratic act of pressure against tomorrow's elections,'' he said.
Hours earlier, the opposition Socialists charged that Rajoy himself violated the law by urging voters in a newspaper interview Saturday to give an absolute majority in Parliament.
Rajoy was only 3-5 percentage points ahead of Socialist candidate Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero before opinion polls were stopped before the blasts in the last week of campaigning.
The massive police hunt for the bombers focused in part on a stolen van found with seven detonators and an audiotape of verses from the Quran. A witness told Associated Press Television News he saw three suspicious men go from the vehicle to a station where three of the four bombed trains originated.
The men wore coverings on their faces but ''it wasn't cold ... I thought it was very strange,'' said the man, who did not want to be named. ''They went into the train station ... I tried to follow one of them but I couldn't because he was very fast.''
The attack's lethal coordination - 10 explosions within 15 minutes - pointed to al-Qaida.
The compressed dynamite used in the attacks, however, is favored by ETA, which has killed more than 800 people in four decades of bombings and assassinations to carve out an independent Basque homeland in northern Spain.
ETA attacks have never been as deadly as the Madrid bombings and mostly targeted police and politicians. On Friday, a caller claiming to represent ETA told a Basque newspaper it was not responsible - the first time ETA is known to have denied an attack.
The death of a man in a hospital overnight pushed the toll up to 200 Saturday. Of the 1,511 injured, 266 remained hospitalized - with 17 in critical condition.
Since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States, only the Bali bombing in Indonesia in October 2002 was deadlier, with 202 people dead. The Madrid attack was Europe's deadliest since the 1988 bombing of a Pan Am jetliner over Lockerbie, Scotland, killed 270 people.
A steady stream of hearses carried coffins in and out of Madrid's biggest funeral home, Tanatorio Sur. The sprawling red-brick building normally has plenty of room, but was still overwhelmed Saturday. For lack of space, the coffins of a couple killed in the attacks were placed in a room normally used for staff meetings.
''My son. Why?'' repeatedly sobbed one elderly woman, leaning on relatives.
03-13-04 1948EST
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040313070409990001
Quote:
Updated: 11:05 AM EST
Documents May Link al-Qaida to Attacks
MOLDE, Norway (March 13) - Norwegian researchers have found documents that could link the al-Qaida network to terror bombings that killed 200 people in Madrid, Spain.
Experts from the government's Norwegian Defense Research Establishment said the documents found on an Arabic-language Web site last year suggest Spain as a possible terror target because the country had been part of the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq.
"We must make maximum use of the proximity to the elections in Spain in March next year. Spain can stand a maximum of two or three attacks before they will withdraw from Iraq," the documents said, according to daily newspaper VG.
A series of bombs hidden in backpacks exploded in quick succession Thursday, blowing apart four commuter trains and killing at least 200 people and wounding more than 1,400 in the Spanish capital. The attacks occurred ahead of Sunday's national elections.
Researcher Thomas Hegghammer told the paper the researchers first thought the 42-page document referred to attacks against coalition forces in Iraq.
"But the fact that they specifically mention the election in Spain, makes us have to see this in the light of the action in Madrid, three days before the election," Hegghammer said.
Norwegian Defense Research Establishment spokeswoman Anne-Lisa Hammer told The Associated Press the researchers would not speak to journalists Saturday, but added that the Norwegian reports were accurate.
State broadcaster NRK said the documents do not refer to Thursday's attacks in Madrid but outline a strategy to pressure Spain, described as the weakest link in the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq, to stop cooperating with the United States.
"The author, who is anonymous, is very well-oriented in Spanish politics. We cannot say for sure that this document stems from al-Qaida. We don't have any reason, either, to believe that it isn't real," researcher Brynjar Lia told VG.
The document suggests attacks on Spain would lead to the collapse of the fragile Iraq coalition set up by the United States if they forced Spain to withdraw.
Spanish officials blame the attacks on Basque separatists from the group ETA, which denied responsibility. An Islamic group linked with suspected al-Qaida links has claimed blame in a statement telefaxed to an Arabic newspaper in London.
03/13/04 07:02 EST
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040313073609990003
Quote:
Updated: 07:53 AM EST
Report Says Spain Told Envoys to Point Finger at ETA
MADRID (March 13) - The Spanish government told its ambassadors to spread the word that armed Basque separatist group ETA was to blame for the Madrid bombings within hours of the attacks, a leading newspaper reported on Saturday.
"You should use any opportunity to confirm ETA's responsibility for these brutal attacks, thus helping to dissipate any type of doubt that certain interested parties may want to promote," El Pais quoted Foreign Minister Ana Palacio as writing in a memo.
Officials could not be immediately reached for comment on the report in a paper linked to the opposition Socialists.
Simultaneous explosions on Thursday morning ripped through commuter trains, killing 199 people and wounding nearly 1,500.
Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's government was quick to point to ETA as its prime suspect, but suspicions have also emerged that Muslim militants may have been behind the attack.
As well as the huge security implications, pinning down responsibility is crucial to Sunday's general election.
If ETA is to blame, that could benefit the ruling party because of its tough stance against the Basque separatists. But if there was al-Qaida or other radical Islamic involvement, it may be viewed as the price of Aznar's support for war in Iraq.
El Pais said Palacio's internal memo, sent at around 5:30 p.m. (11:30 a.m. EST) on Thursday, quoted earlier statements by Interior Minister Angel Acebes.
"The Interior Minister has confirmed ETA's responsibility. This is confirmed by the explosive and style used, as well as other information that has not yet been made public for obvious reasons," the text said, according to the newspaper.
Since then, the Spanish government has seemed less certain, affirming ETA remains its main line of investigation but saying it is also pursuing other theories.
The discovery of a van with detonators and a tape in Arabic, plus a purported letter claiming responsibility for a group aligned to al-Qaida, have fed suspicions of Arab involvement.
ETA denied responsibility late on Friday.
El Pais said Foreign Ministry officials would not comment on Palacio's memo or whether modified instructions had been sent out to ambassadors at any point afterwards.
The newspaper said "an immediate consequence" of Palacio's memo was a "clash" in the U.N. Security Council between Spain's second most senior diplomat there and the Russian ambassador.
"The latter was reluctant to approve a resolution about the attack in Madrid which condemned ETA, arguing nothing like that had ever been done before, because it is normally impossible to show responsibility for a terrorist act the same day it has been committed," it said.
The U.N. Security Council voted, however, 15-0 to accept the word of the Spanish government and condemn ETA on Thursday despite hesitations from Russia, Germany and others.
03/13/04 07:34 ET
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20040312062509990001
Quote:
Updated: 11:02 AM EST
Spain Was a Center for al-Qaida Activity
Purported bin Laden Tape Said Country Could Be Target
By JOHN LEICESTER, AP
MADRID, Spain (March 12) - Just months ago, a taped threat thought to be from Osama bin Laden included Spain among countries that could be attacked "at the appropriate time and place."
After Thursday's train bombings in Madrid, the government quickly blamed the Basque separatist group ETA. But later the interior minister said Islamic terrorism was not ruled out.
Bin Laden's warning was contained in an audiotape in October that the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency determined was probably authentic.
Spanish and other anti-terrorism officials say Spain was an important European center for al-Qaida activity before the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks in the United States.
Spanish Judge Baltasar Garzon believes that Spain, along with Germany, was an important staging ground for the hijackings. Lead suicide pilot Mohamed Atta visited Spain twice in 2001, including a trip that July which Garzon says was called to discuss last-minute details with other senior plotters.
Last September, Garzon indicted bin Laden and nine other terror suspects over the Sept. 11 attacks. Three were alleged to be members of a Spain-based terror cell. Garzon charged 25 other men with belonging to Al-Qaida.
More than 40 al-Qaida suspects have been arrested in Spain since the attacks, although many have been released for lack of evidence. Tayssir Alouni, a reporter for pan-Arab television channel Al-Jazeera who was arrested last September on charges of belonging to al-Qaida, also has been released on bail.
In Spain, there are fears that Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's staunch support of the U.S.-led war in Iraq has made the country a target for Islamic terrorists. Aznar has sent 1,300 troops to Iraq, even though most Spaniards opposed the war.
The first official mention of a possible Islamic angle to Thursday's attacks came when Interior Minister Angel Acebes said that police had found detonators and an Arabic-language audiotape with Quranic verses in a van in a town outside Madrid.
ETA, the separatist group that has claimed responsibility for more than 800 deaths in its decades-long campaign of assassinations and bombings for an independent Basque homeland, remains the "main line of investigation," Acebes said.
But with the van find "all kinds of lines investigation open up," he said. "Because of this, I have just given instructions to the security forces not to rule out any line."
Then, the London-based Arabic newspaper Al-Quds al-Arabi said it had received a claim of responsibility for the Madrid bombings issued by The Brigade of Abu Hafs al-Masri in al-Qaida's name.
The claim received by e-mail said the brigade's "death squad" had penetrated "one of the pillars of the crusade alliance, Spain," and carried out what it called Operation Death Trains.
"This is part of settling old accounts with Spain, the crusader, and America's ally in its war against Islam," the claim said.
There was no way to verify that the claim did come from al-Qaida, and Spain's government said ETA remained its No.1 suspect. The 10 bombs on four morning rush-hour trains killed more than 190 people, making it the worst terrorist attack in Spain's history.
Some 500,000 of Spain's 42 million people are Muslims, according to government figures. Neighboring France, in contrast, has an estimated 5 million Muslims.
03/12/04 06:23 EST
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/12/international/europe/12TERR.html?ex=1079758800&en=72b50e5a42f0db0d&ei=5059&partner=AOLInvestigation of Bombings in Madrid Yields Conflicting CluesBy TIM GOLDEN and DON VAN NATTA Jr. Published: March 12, 2004 The flood of conflicting evidence and clues that emerged from the carnage of the Madrid bombings yesterday pointed in two very different directions, leaving counterterrorism officials in a country painfully familiar with terrorist violence struggling to identify a culprit. Just hours after the bombings, the Spanish authorities blamed the Basque separatist group known as ETA. Hours later, the same officials announced the discovery of new evidence they said left open the possibility that Islamic militants had been involved. "Could it have been Islamic fundamentalists?" one senior Spanish antiterrorism official asked last night. "It could have been. Spain is clearly a target of Al Qaeda; Osama bin Laden has said so himself." The scale of the violence, the indiscriminate nature of the killing and the near-simultaneity of the 10 bombings yesterday were all reminiscent of Al Qaeda. In addition, the Spanish interior minister said the police had found detonators and an audio tape of Koranic verses inside a stolen van that was parked near the station where three of the four bombed trains originated. In a sign of concern that the violence might not be limited to Spain, France raised its national terrorism alert from the lowest level. A senior French security official said in the days before the Madrid bombings that they had indications of possible terrorist attacks on railways in France and other European nations. Yet in the chaotic aftermath of the bombings, antiterrorism officials cautioned that other evidence seemed to implicate ETA. One Spanish official who spoke on the condition he not be named said the dynamite-like explosive used in the attacks, Titadine, had been used before by ETA, which stands for Euskadi Ta Askatasuna, or Basque Homeland and Freedom. Most recently, the official said, the police found the same explosive in a vehicle they intercepted last month as it was driven to Madrid by ETA militants. The police also found bomb-laden backpacks like those used in yesterday's attacks when they foiled a bombing at a Madrid train station on Christmas Eve, an event they linked to ETA. Yesterday's bombings also came after months of intelligence reporting that ETA was planning a major attack, several Spanish officials said. The timing of the violence — with national elections scheduled for Sunday — seemed to suggest ETA's hand as well, they said. But even as the interior minister, Ángel Acebes, was blaming ETA directly for the carnage, another senior Spanish counterterrorism official questioned privately whether the Basque group would wantonly kill so many innocents, most of whom were the sort of working-class people to whom ETA's Marxist-oriented leaders have traditionally tried to appeal. The death toll yesterday, at least 192 people, was nearly one fourth of the nearly 850 people ETA had killed since 1968. "I'm not so certain," said the official, who has investigated Basque terrorism for more than a decade. "The problem is that ETA has never taken a step of this magnitude before. This would be off the charts for them." ETA has long demanded an independent Basque state in northern Spain and southern France. The group has been under increasing pressure from both governments in recent years, and officials said they believed its capacity for violent action appeared to have declined. The Spanish authorities reported arresting 125 ETA members and accomplices last year. The French arrested 46 others, including some senior leaders. Last year, ETA was blamed for three killings, two fewer than the year before. Those numbers were far lower than the 23 people who were killed in 44 ETA bombings and other attacks in 2000. "Neither ETA nor Grapo maintains the degree of operational capability it once enjoyed," the American State Department reported this year, referring also to a smaller radical organization called the First of October Anti-Fascist Resistance Group. "The overall level of terrorist activity is considerably less than in the past, and the trend appears to be downward." Some in Spain fear that yesterday's bombings could be an indication that the crackdown could be driving radical young Basques into the ETA underground. "If this was ETA, it is the crazies, the cubs, who have grown more and more radical," a senior Spanish antiterrorism official said. "The more political cadres are losing influence, and these ones are more difficult to reason with." In Washington, a counterterrorism official cautioned against assigning blame, saying terrorism experts would carefully review the evidence before ruling out involvement by ETA. He said American officials were still discussing whether to send experts to assist the Spanish government's investigation. Before yesterday, Al Qaeda had not carried out any known attacks in Spain. But prosecutors say the group has maintained cells in Spain since at least the early 1990's, insinuating themselves among the country's growing Arab immigrant population. The Spanish police and intelligence agencies, strengthened in part by their long struggle against Basque separatists, began watching such groups well before most of their European counterparts. By the mid-1990's, they were monitoring a network of Syrian immigrants, many of them affiliated with the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood whose members have since been accused of logistical and other support to the Sept. 11 hijackers. In a nearly 700-page indictment issued last year, the Spanish investigative magistrate Baltasar Garzón accused one of the Syrians, a successful businessman named Muhammad Galeb Kalaje Zouaydi, of distributing $800,000 for the Qaeda network under the cover of a Spanish real-estate development company. Mr. Kalaje's lawyer has denied the charges. Mohamed Atta, the hijacker who was the pilot of the first plane to slam into the World Trade Center, visited Spain two months before the terror attacks on Sept. 11, 2001. Spanish officials said they believed Mr. Atta may have held a strategy session with other leaders of the hijacking plot outside Madrid. The Spanish authorities also asserted links to Al Qaeda in rounding up 16 terrorism suspects in January 2003 around the northeastern cities of Barcelona and Girona. Although the police seized a cache of explosives and chemicals, most of the men were released for lack of evidence. The antipathy toward Spain among radical Muslims has grown more palpable as the conservative government of Prime Minister José María Aznar has strongly backed the Bush administration's efforts to fight international terrorism and overthrow Saddam Hussein. Despite the efforts of Spanish authorities, several European counterterrorism officials and experts said, Spain has continued to serve as an important recruiting, financial and logistical hub for Al Qaeda. Many of the dozens of Islamic terrorism suspects arrested in Spain since the Sept. 11 attacks are believed to be mid-level logistical planners and operatives who have helped move money, either through charities or legitimate businesses, the officials said. Last July, the police in Germany arrested a man accused of being a lieutenant for Al Qaeda and who was suspected of plotting to bomb Costa del Sol resorts. The man, Mahjub Abderrazak, an Algerian who was known as "The Sheik," was later released. Douglas Jehl and David Johnston contributed reporting from Washington for this article.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Quote:
Dave said:
Well, I can relate to that emotion.
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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
i think with the 9-11 it showed that the terrorist had a capability and will to do major attacks, im assuming that since they have been few and far between the war on terror is working, i do not believe that they suddenly decided they went to far and decided to tone down the attacks......
Yeah, which is kind of what I mean by limited success. We've had Bali and now Madrid since 9/11. At least we haven't also had Washington, London and Moscow, I suppose.
Probably the best thing the Bush administration has done by far in the war on terror is invade Afghanistan and kick the Taliban into the hills.
But still, it hasn't stopped.
well no, but then i dont think the world has the stomach for what it would take to wipe them out completely. as it stands i think Bush has done as much as anyone can do. We've had presidents in the past whose only response to terror was to lob cruise missles at tents, at least Bush has been comprehensive sending troops, rallying the world to attempt to block their finances and continuing to pressure those who want to set the fence to join in. It's not perfect but short of us going into every suspected hideout across international borders its the best that can be done....
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whomod said:
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PJP said:
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D. McDonagh said:
Hasn't taken Bush long to try to turn it into a PR stunt, has it? I know there's an election coming up, but doesn't the fuckwit have any class at all?
Fuck you you piece of shit..........he's got our best interests at heart and he at least has the balls to do something about it..........you mean to tell me if someone punches you in the face........you're just going to let them and walk away.......you're a fucking pussy.
I think you just inadvertently called Jesus a pussy.
That's what I was thinking when I first read it. I went to see the Passion today.
FREE SCOTT PETERSON!
"Basically, you've just responded with argumentative opinion to everything I've said. And you respond with speculations, speculating that I'M speculating. "- Wonder Boy
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Exactly. We propped them up. We have the right to take them out. 
Again, would we have even had to, but for Britain's history of screwing with the region?
...And then we can prop up even worse ones! 
FREE SCOTT PETERSON!
"Basically, you've just responded with argumentative opinion to everything I've said. And you respond with speculations, speculating that I'M speculating. "- Wonder Boy
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cobra kai 15000+ posts
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Quote:
D. McDonagh said:
I don't like either of them, Rob. The religious right bring me out in hives.
fair enough! no one likes hives.
but still, in terms of the "commander and chief" hat, which do you favor more, jr's decision to invade regardless? or sr's decision to follow UN order?
and can you at least see how it looks sorta unfair to blame them both?
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Dave said:
By your reckoning, though, doesn't this simply mean that "wars" on crime, drugs and terror aren't really wars?
getting all animalman on that, no, the wars on crime, drugs, and terror aren't really wars, technically. they're simply ongoing struggles.
the term war just seems to imply the offensive effort against each of those negatives.
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Dave said:
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just because terrorism continues doesn't mean the war against them is a failure.
I disagree, Rob. Partisan guerrilla tactics can be stopped, and this war so far has had only limited success.
i don't know what'd make you think guerrilla tactics can be stopped -- especially when they've been going on for millenia!
keep in mind, this is a global attack. one that the terrorists have had generations to support and plan for, and all the finances in the world to back them up.
however, with only three years of aggressive offense against terrorism, there have been phenomenal advances in hopes of routing them out.
invading afghanistan, invading iraq (right or wrong), upping patrols and security, sharing info between agencies and countries, simply spreading general knowledge (how many civilians heard or cared abotu al qaeda in the 90s?) ... all are major, major successes in the struggles.
every day, there are rings busted, shells broken, assets seized, and operatives captured. every day is another day an undercover agent can work eyes and ears into the terrorist organizations.
the only "problem" is that successes get little media coverage, if any at all. if texas doesn't blow up, no body knows, because thats not news.
but rest assured, things like that are happening.
would i dare classify the "war" a success? no. i don't think something as huge and ongoing as this can't be summed up by something as definitive as "success."
but "failure" is way off the mark.
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Furious voters oust Spanish government Socialists gain power as Aznar is punished for bloodshed Giles Tremlett in Madrid Monday March 15, 2004 The Guardian Spanish voters punished prime minister José María Aznar's People's party for the bloodshed of last week's Madrid terrorist attacks yesterday, throwing it out of government in an angry reaction to his handling of the aftermath. In one of the most dramatic elections of the post-Franco era, voters turned on the ruling party, convinced that the multiple bomb attack on Madrid's packed commuter trains had been carried out by al-Qaida and with a growing sense that the People's party had tried to hide the truth. With intelligence agencies around the globe trying to identify a man who, in a videotape found in Madrid, claimed responsibility for the attacks for al-Qaida and with three Moroccan suspects in police custody, most voters believed the Spanish capital had suffered its equivalent of the September 11 attacks in the United States. Socialist leader José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero swept to a surprise victory that was a blow to the Bush administration. He has pledged to withdraw Spain's 1,300 troops from Iraq if the UN does not take control by June 30 when Washington plans to hand power back to Iraqis. Mr Zapatero started his victory speech with a minute's silence for the victims of Thursday's attacks before vowing to fight all kinds of terrorism. "Together we will defeat it," he told supporters outside his party headquarters in Madrid. Angry protests on the streets of large cities overnight had set a tone of brooding resentment and bitterness for a vote in which the deaths of 200 people and the injuries of more than 1,500 had inflamed some already sharp divisions in Spain. Protesters accused the government of trying to hide the fact that violent Islamism was to blame and demanded explanations for Mr Aznar's backing of the Iraq war against the will of some 90% of Spaniards. Those worries helped drive a huge turnout that had reached 62.9% of voters by mid-afternoon, 7% higher than at the same stage of the last election in 2000. They produced a reverse in the fortunes of a People's party which led in opinion polls by three to five points a week ago. With almost all ballots counted, Mr Zapatero's Socialists had won 42.6% of the vote, gaining 164 seats in the 350-seat parliament. The Popular Party took 37.7%, 148 seats. No other party won more than 5% or 10 seats. It was also the first example of a single terrorist attack having a direct affect on the outcome of an election in a leading western country. Mr Zapatero, a 43-year-old lawyer, had pledged during campaigning to swap Mr Aznar's pact with Mr Bush for a return to a European alliance with France and Germany. Although Mr Aznar had stuck to a pledge to stand down and not present himself for a third consecutive term, commentators said the vote was a direct criticism of him rather than of his hand-picked successor, Mariano Rajoy. "The great defeat here is not of Mr Rajoy but of Mr Aznar," said political commentator José Oneto, who claimed Mr Aznar had done little to boost Mr Rajoy's standing during campaigning. All predictions about who might win were blown away by the unknown terrorists who placed 10 bombs on four trains during Thursday's early-morning rush hour in Madrid. "Spain has never voted in such a tragic situation. There's a feeling of anguish, sadness, horror," said Joaquin Leguina, a former president of Madrid's regional government. The untried Mr Zapatero will now have to find backing from small regionalist parties in Catalonia or elsewhere. A handful of young protesters had screamed "murderer" at Mr Rajoy as he cast his vote at a school outside Madrid. "We did not want to go to war," they shouted. On Saturday night, crowds besieged the People's party headquarters, angry at the perceived lack of information they were receiving about the circumstances surrounding Thursday's blasts, especially from the state broadcaster RTVE. Mr Rajoy, who admitted defeat last night with 95% of the vote counted, had declined to comment on the arrests or videotape. "These elections come at a time of great pain," he said. The People's party had based much of its campaign on a"no negotiating" stance in the face of the armed Basque separatist group Eta and had criticised opponents it considered weak in their opposition to the group. Separatist parties or regionalists demanding more powers also suffered from a campaign against them that backfired so badly it helped one party, the separatist Catalan Republican Left, increase its number of seats from one to eight, making it the fourth largest party. Mr Aznar's final mistake was to spend the first two days after the Madrid bombings insisting that Eta was probably to blame, despite the fact that it would have been a dramatic change in the terrorist group's tactics. A Basque-language daily yesterday published a statement by Eta which, for a second time, denied involvement in the attacks.
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Top Stories - Reuters Spain Heading Out of Iraq Under Zapatero 24 minutes ago By Andrew Cawthorne MADRID (Reuters) - Spain's incoming leader Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero indicated Monday he would pull Madrid's troops out of the "disastrous" occupation of Iraq in a major swing from his predecessor's pro-American foreign policy.
 The European Union, concerned by growing signs that Thursday's Madrid train bombings may have been carried out by Islamist militants, called emergency counter-terrorism talks.
Zapatero's Socialists swept to office at the weekend in what some analysts said could constitute an alarming first case of Islamist militants influencing, by violence, the outcome of a major Western election. Zapatero himself called his triumph a first consequence of the Iraq war's unpopularity with Spaniards.
"The second will be that the Spanish troops will come back," he told a Spanish radio station.
"Mr. Blair and Mr. Bush must do some reflection and self-criticism... you can't organize a war with lies," he said in remarkably frank comments for the next prime minister of Western Europe's youngest democracy and fifth largest economy.
President Bush called to congratulate 43-year-old Zapatero. "The two leaders said they both looked forward to working together particularly on our shared commitment to fighting terrorism," a White House spokesman said. Zapatero, due to take office within the next month, repeated several times Monday his campaign pledge to pull out troops unless the United Nations takes charge in Iraq by mid-year -- but added in his radio interview that scenario was unlikely. Spain has 1,300 troops in parts of south-central Iraq. Critics of the government have argued that the Madrid bombings were the price Spain paid for backing the Iraq occupation. RANCOR REMAINS OVER ETA BLAME Most commentators saw Zapatero's shock election victory as driven by anger over Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar's handling of the suspected al Qaeda attack on Madrid commuter trains last Thursday that also wounded 1,500 people. After Thursday's attacks Aznar's government initially blamed the armed Basque separatist group ETA, which denied involvement. Sunday would go down in history as "the day when Islamic fundamentalism was seen as dictating the outcome of a European election," said Wilfried Martens, head of the European People's Party, an umbrella group for European conservative parties. With almost all votes counted, the Socialists had won 42.6 percent of the vote to the PP's 37.6 percent. With 164 seats in the lower house of parliament, 12 short of an absolute majority, Zapatero has said he intends to govern through dialogue with other groups. He ruled out the possibility of a coalition with regional parties. But the PP will remain by far the largest single force in the upper house or Senate, potentially making it difficult for a Socialist government to pass legislation. MARKETS HURT The Spanish stock market dropped sharply Monday amid mounting suspicions of al Qaeda involvement in the bombings and uncertainties over the Socialist party's economic agenda. Some 12 billion euros was wiped from the value of leading companies. But in a nod to investors in Spain, Zapatero lined up well-known free-marketeer Miguel Sebastian as his chief economic advisor. Sebastian is tipped to take the economy ministry. Zapatero said his immediate priorities would be "fighting terrorism" and a more "pro-European" foreign policy. The EU's Irish presidency announced that EU justice and home affairs ministers would hold emergency counter-terrorism talks in Brussels Friday. Germany had requested the meeting. Zapatero's surprise win has changed the EU's balance of power, robbing pro-U.S. supporters of the Iraq war, led by Britain's Prime Minister Tony Blair (news - web sites), of an important ally. It may also open the way for compromise on a stalled EU constitution blocked by Aznar to defend Spain's voting power. Aznar's closeness to Blair and President Bush was unpopular at home. Zapatero said he wanted "cordial" ties with Washington but used the word "magnificent" to describe the relations he sought with France, Germany and other EU members. Sunday, the government revealed it had a videotape, purportedly from Osama bin Laden (news - web sites)'s al Qaeda, saying it carried out the attacks in retaliation for Spain's support for the U.S.-led war on Iraq. A senior U.S. official said Monday he believed al Qaeda was involved. "I'm satisfied there are connections to al Qaeda," U.S. Homeland Security Undersecretary Asa Hutchinson said. El Pais newspaper reported that Spanish police suspected the bombings were carried out by the same radical Islamist group, with indirect ties to al Qaeda, which killed dozens in a series of blasts in Casablanca last year.
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That makes no sense. I would stay in Iraq for spite after the bombing. Leaving only makes Al Qaida's actions successful. By backing down Spain is saying to Al Qaida "Hey, no fair you hit us we'll go back home now."
No one has the will to do the right thing anymore. Getting out of Iraq is one thing. But getting out of Iraq 2 days after someone does a terrorist attack against you only proves you are a bunch of cry baby cowards. I understand that party and it's voters doesn't want to be in Iraq which is a great POV and is to be lauded IMO, but to lay down for Al Qaida is insane.
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leaving iraq is probably the natural reaction.
losing a few hundred loved ones in an enormous terrorist attack will, of course, cause a quick reaction to protect, and ensure safety. and no decision more quickly affirms immediate safety than leaving iraq.
you can't fault the decision.
but its that kinda decision that terrorists both expect and need to be succesful: spreading terror.
to have the resolve to maintain an offensive pressure on terrorists is both a little ballsy and a little crazy. its also incredibly difficult and, as seen with madrid, incredibly unpopular. that decision ensures more deaths, thus inviting criticism.
but it also ensures a chance at a better future. the only chance at defeating terrorism. the only chance at restoring peace.
absolutely a tough choice, but, i feel, one with an easy answer.
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
but it also ensures a chance at a better future. the only chance at defeating terrorism. the only chance at restoring peace.
There has never been peace.
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peace from terrorism, i meant, in those regions previously free from it (like the US and spain).
restoring peace in madrid and nyc.
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What Spain did was disgraceful......they gave up......they have sent a meesage to terrorists that they will be at their mercy. I'm shocked I never expected this. They will regret this folly in due time. Now al-qaeda thinks they have the power to decide elections. 
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
peace from terrorism, i meant, in those regions previously free from it (like the US and spain).
restoring peace in madrid and nyc.
Spain wasn't previously free from terrorism, though: the assumption that this was Al Queda doesn't mean that ETA have suddenly ceased to exist.
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but, in my opinion, would spain hold its resolve and stand strong against terrorism, it would make a blanket statement against all terrorist groups (be it the new found al qaeda targetting or the 40 previous years of ETA).
if al qaeda scores this "victory" over spain, its essentially a gain for ETA (via the "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" property)
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True, I was just saying that there is a prior history of terrorist attacks in Spain: wiping out al queda (by killing every muslim on the planet, the way some of the more jingoistic elements here are talking) wouldn't mean an end to terrorism.
As for the other, negotiations seem to be working a lot better on controlling the Fenians than clamping down on them did in the 'Seventies.
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are the teaching french now in spain's schools?
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Is it worth observing that the French lasted a lot longer in Vietnam (or French Indochina as it was then) than you people ever managed?
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Yeah, well we killed more people!
FREE SCOTT PETERSON!
"Basically, you've just responded with argumentative opinion to everything I've said. And you respond with speculations, speculating that I'M speculating. "- Wonder Boy
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Quote:
D. McDonagh said:
Is it worth observing that the French lasted a lot longer in Vietnam (or French Indochina as it was then) than you people ever managed?
so not ony are they cowards, theyre stupid too?
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Quote:
D. McDonagh said:
Is it worth observing that the French lasted a lot longer in Vietnam (or French Indochina as it was then) than you people ever managed?
How the hell do you come to THIS brilliant conclusion ?!?
Ho Chi Minh began the seeds of revolution in the 1930's. His revolutionary movement to liberate French Indochina (later renamed Vietnam) was put on hold by WW II, because the Vietnamese felt they'd be more safe under French rule than as an independent state, from Japanese invasion.
But Japan very easily conquered Vietnam.
So from the end of WW II, seeing no benefit to being a French colony, the revolution began again.
The French didn't maintain continuous possesion of Vietnam. Quite the contrary, they got their butts kicked.
U.S. involvement began in Vietnam because the French would initially not join NATO, and pressured the U.S. to assist in humanitarian aid and economic aid to Vietnam, which gradually escalated to military aid as well in the early 1960's.
Pressure from France regarding NATO leveraged the U.S. into increased Vietnam involvement, to trade for French cooperation in NATO.
Precisely because of the French effort to keep Vietnam, France was the only nation in Western Europe not to have fully recovered from WW II by the mid-1950's.
The French were defeated at Diembienphu in 1956 (at which point the U.N. intervened, and split the nation into North Vietnam and South Vietnam.)
The idea was to make South Vietnam into a model of democracy, to make the North Vietnamese turn from communism. At which theoretical point, the two halves of Vietnam could be re-united.
But largely due to a heavy French hand in selection of South Vietnamese leadership, corrupt leadership and brutal repression of any political dissent inhibited the development of a truly democratic South Vietnam.
All economic aid to South Vietnam was siphoned into the pockets of the French-picked and French-educated ruling elite.
And the South Vietnamese people saw no evidence or benefit of democracy, and actually grew to fear their own South Vietnamese leadership.
With no political alternative offered in South Vietnam, the discontented South Vietnamese citizens again began turning to their former revolutionary leader, Ho Chi Minh, in North Vietnam.
The French-appointed president of South Vietnam, Ngo Din Diem, (appointed by the French in 1956) was assassinated in 1963. American military involvement escalated soon after.
But all along from 1950-1963, France obstructed every U.S. attempt to eliminate the corruption and repression by the elite, the source of discontent in South Vietnam, and obstructed U.S. attempts to select South Vietnamese leadership that was not corrupt.
So, post WW II, French leadership lasted from 1945-1956. 11 years.
And U.S. involvement lasted from 1950-1975, when Saigon fell, and was renamed Ho Chi Minh City.
Or from the point where U.S. involvement began in earnest, in the complete absence of French influence (from the point of the Gulf of Tonkin resolution, August 1964), about 11 years. Roughly the same time period as the French. Longer, if you trace it to the first U.S. involvement (25 years).
The French role in U.S. involvement in Vietnam is something that is, for some reason, often glossed over.
Probably to better demonize the United States.
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I'm just fed up of the amount of French bashing on here, particularly when it comes from people who seem to expect other countries to fight America's battles for it.
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Yes because no one fought WW2 for the French
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No, the various European nations fought world war two in self defence and America got involved for economic reasons. Nobody gave a shit about France, particularly.
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Quote:
D. McDonagh said:
No, the various European nations fought world war two in self defence and America got involved for economic reasons. Nobody gave a shit about France, particularly.
Gee, y'know, that's funny, because I always thought it was because the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.
We started the lend-lease act in 1940-1941, extending huge loans to Britain so it wouldn't be overthrown. Those were huge loans to England, huge loans, that had no guarantee would ever be repaid, since the smart money said England would be overthrown.
Germany had extensive plans, post-conquest, to exterminate any educated elite in England, and also to identify and exterminate all its Jews, and drain England's resources into the Wermacht. England's fall was all but assured. And the loans extended to England stood as a potentially huge loss to the United States.
Franklin Roosevelt wanted to fight in Europe, not for economic reasons, but because after England and Iceland, the Nazis would have invaded North America next. Britain had already prepared for the eventuality that it would fall, and possession of the British navy would have then gone to Canada. The papers were already signed in the event of England's defeat.
But once Europe was secure with the fall of Britain, and German factories would have been out of range and could no longer be bombed from England, it really would have been a matter of time before North America fell.
Also, while the United States declared war on Japan after December 7, 1941, the U.S. was still divided on whether to fight a war in Europe, and take on Germany. Germany had still not directly attacked the U.S.
Roosevelt would have faced a lot of backlash if he'd used Pearl Harbor as an opportunity to declare war on Germany, despite that he wanted to, and knew it was in the national --and WORLD-- interest.
But Hitler declared war on the United States.
So that saved Roosevelt from having to go through a long process to sell war on Germany to the American people. The aggression was Germany's, not the United States'.
And many historians, and even many of Hitler's own leaders and generals, think that decision by Hitler, to declare war on the U.S., was the turning point of the war.
Without drawing the U.S. into the European theatre, the U.S. might have stayed out of the war. And Germany may have won.
So war was declared on the U.S. by Japan.
And war was declared on the U.S. by Germany.
There was no choice in the matter by the United States.
Where do you get your ludicrous notions of history ?
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Pearl Harbor? Are you crazy! It was about money! The US is always about money!
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Yeah, how stupid of me Britney. To rely on historical facts instead of blind anti-American hatred.
~
Here's a political cartoon by Jim Morin, of the Miami Herald, that I think perfectly captures the terror-bombing and election in Spain. Spain, for all its ability to fight, is manipulated and deflected by al Qaida terror. The Spanish people should be ashamed of themselves. They've allowed themselves to be thoroughly intimidated.
Al Qaida held up the matador's cape and directed Spain where they wanted it to go. And Spain, stupidly and short-sightedly, followed.
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Last edited by Dave the Wonder Boy; 2004-03-20 4:49 AM.
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The question is not "Did the terrorists win?" but is, instead, "Did the government's ignoring the wish of the Spanish people not to invade Iraq (and did the government's attempted cover-up of who was responsible for the train bombings) lose?" Governmental arrogance and deception will always, eventually, be the downfall of governments, administrations and regimes.
But this "Spain bowing down to Al Queda" is typical of the right wing's perversion of truth. Zapatero has made it clear that his first priority in office will be to fight terrorism. The war in Iraq was opposed by 90% of Spaniards. The Spanish people were horrified by 3/11 and angered by their government's attempt to lay the blame on the Basque insurgent group ETA when it was clear that Al Qaeda was responsible. Spanish voters did not reward terror. They punished liars.
The newly elected leader in Spain, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, said it perfectly: The war in Iraq was "an error" based on "lies." Wars like the one in Iraq "only allow hatred, violence and terror to proliferate."
We are marking the one-year anniversary of this error based on lies. Anyone who believes that this war has made the world a safer place needs only to look at the recent bombings in Spain. All we have done is make it harder for us to fight these terrorist groups because we have committed most of our resources to a war in a country that was not a threat to us but, if anything, was a threat to Al Qaeda. (see my quote from Reagans Secretary of the Navy, In the Iraq thread)
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Quote:
whomod said:
Anyone who believes that this war has made the world a safer place needs only to look at the recent bombings in Spain.
didn't september 11th happen before the war?
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Quote:
D. McDonagh said:
No, the various European nations fought world war two in self defence and America got involved for economic reasons. Nobody gave a shit about France, particularly.
And Europeans wonder why so many Americans consider them a bunch of snobby, inbred, ignorant ingrates. 
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There was me thinking that the Russians and Germany's invasion of Russia had something to do with the collapse of the German war effort. You live and learn.
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Quote:
D. McDonagh said:
There was me thinking that the Russians and Germany's invasion of Russia had something to do with the collapse of the German war effort. You live and learn.
Had the US not added it's forces in western Europe, Germany would have easily cleaned up there, and then Hitler would have been able to send the bulk of his forces into Russia, which would have also fallen to the nazi's. At the very least, Russia would have withdrawn and formed an uneasy border against the now entirely nazi controlled Europe.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
D. McDonagh said:
No, the various European nations fought world war two in self defence and America got involved for economic reasons. Nobody gave a shit about France, particularly.
And Europeans wonder why so many Americans consider them a bunch of snobby, inbred, ignorant ingrates.
G-Man displays the exact same leadership style being practiced by Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Hastert and Rumsfeld.
Now I read that Bush Tells World Iraq Differences Are in the Past
Somehow I doubt having people of G-man and Wolfowitz's ilk calling Euuropeans cowards, snobby, ingrates, ignortant (oh the irony ) and appeasers is what's going to bring them back into the Bush fold of the Coalition of the bribed. He bullied, lied to, and threatened all those that stood against his lies and now that it's all falling apart, he sweet talks them about unity.
The countries he's referring to in this article were all insulted or ridiculed by either him or somebody in his administration -- and now he's the one acting magnanamous by putting our differences aside?
I don't think it will be that easy.
Those countries he mentioned have all been shutout and mocked from the beginning, and I don't think they're too anxious to forgive and forget yet.
Don't you think it's time for a change in leadership?
This war is tearing us apart and I don't think it will get any easier for the US until we have more rational people out there speaking for us. We particularly need a new leader. Somebody the world can respect...which is a lot different than somebody the world fears.
Last edited by whomod; 2004-03-19 10:28 PM.
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Quote:
Spaniards Capitulating . . .
By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, March 19, 2004; Page A23
When confronting an existential enemy -- an enemy that wants to terminate your very existence -- there are only two choices: appeasement or war.
In the 1930s Europe chose appeasement. Today Spain has done so again. Europe may follow.
One can understand Europe's reaction in the 1930s. First, it could almost plausibly convince itself that Hitler could be accommodated. Perhaps he really was only seeking what he sometimes said he was -- the return of territory, the unification of the German volk, a place in the sun -- and not world conquest.
Today there is no doubting the intentions of Arab-Islamic radicalism. It is not this grievance or that (U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia). It is not this territory or that (Palestine, Andalusia). The intention, endlessly repeated, is the establishment of a primitive, messianic caliphate -- redeeming Islam and dominating the world. They have seen the future: Taliban Afghanistan, writ large.
Moreover, Europe in the 1930s had a second excuse. The devastation of the first world war, staggering and fresh in memory (France and Germany lost a third of their young men of military age), had made another such war unthinkable. This does not excuse appeasement -- it cost millions more lives in the second world war -- but provides context and possibly humility. One has to ask oneself: Am I sure I would not have chosen the cowardly alternative?
Nonetheless, it was still the cowardly alternative. And today Spain has chosen it -- having suffered not Europe's 20 million dead of World War I but 200 dead in the Madrid bombings.
The Socialist Party placed the blame for the attack not on the barbarians who detonated the bombs but on the Spanish government that stood with the United States in its war against the barbarians. The Spanish electorate then voted into office the purveyors of precisely that perverse view.
Spain will now withdraw from Iraq, sever its alliance with America and, as Prime Minister-elect Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero has promised, "restore magnificent relations with France and Germany."
Nonetheless, Spain is just Spain. The really big prize is Europe. Which is why the most ominous development of the week was the post-Madrid pronouncements of Romano Prodi, the president of the European Commission.
"It is clear that force alone cannot win the fight against terrorism." Sounds reasonable until you hear Prodi's amplification of the idea just two days earlier. "We know that international terrorism wants to spread fear," he said. "Fear generates not so much justice but rather vengeance, which chooses war to answer the need of security. . . . We become prisoners of terror and of terrorists." In other words, making war on terror is unjust, fearful, mere vengeance and ultimately a victory for terrorism.
If not war, then what? A centerpiece to Prodi's solution to terrorism: a new European constitution. I'm not making this up: "to defeat fear we only have democracy and politics. . . . Today for us, politics means building Europe completely with its constitution and its institutions."
This is beyond appeasement. This is decadence: Terror rages and we tend our garden.
Prodi is right that the war on terror is not resolved by force alone. How is it won apart from hunting down terrorists and destroying terrorist regimes? By reversing the Arab-Islamic world's tragic collapse into oppression, intolerance and destitution, in which popular grievances are cynically deflected by repressive regimes and clergy into the virulent anti-Americanism that exploded upon us on Sept. 11, 2001. Which means trying to give desperate and oppressed people a chance at the kind of freedom and prosperity that we helped construct after World War II in Europe and East Asia.
Where on this planet is this project most engaged? Iraq, where day by day the U.S.-led coalition is trying to build a new civil order characterized by pluralism, the rule of law and constitutional restraints. Even a modicum of success in this enterprise would constitute a monumental strategic advance, a historic change in the very culture of the Middle East.
Spain's response to this challenge? Abandon the effort.
So when Zapatero and, more important, Prodi speak of nonmilitary means to combat terrorism, they don't mean draining the swamp by gradually building free institutions. They mean buying off the terrorists, distancing themselves from America and seeking a separate peace.
Sure, they will continue to track down individual al Qaeda terrorists. But that's no favor to anyone. They want to make sure there's not another Madrid, in case European appeasement is not quite thorough enough to satisfy the terrorists. But on the larger fight, the reordering of the Arab world that produced the terrorists, they choose surrender.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A6542-2004Mar18.html
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
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Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951 Likes: 6 |
Quote:
whomod said:
G-Man displays the exact same leadership style being practiced by Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Hastert and Rumsfeld.
Why, thank you, whomod, that's the nicest thing you've ever said to/about me.
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 25,011 Likes: 31
brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
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brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 25,011 Likes: 31 |
Quote:
whomod said:
The question is not "Did the terrorists win?" but is, instead, "Did the government's ignoring the wish of the Spanish people not to invade Iraq (and did the government's attempted cover-up of who was responsible for the train bombings) lose?" Governmental arrogance and deception will always, eventually, be the downfall of governments, administrations and regimes.
But this "Spain bowing down to Al Queda" is typical of the right wing's perversion of truth. Zapatero has made it clear that his first priority in office will be to fight terrorism. The war in Iraq was opposed by 90% of Spaniards. The Spanish people were horrified by 3/11 and angered by their government's attempt to lay the blame on the Basque insurgent group ETA when it was clear that Al Qaeda was responsible. Spanish voters did not reward terror. They punished liars.
The newly elected leader in Spain, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, said it perfectly: The war in Iraq was "an error" based on "lies." Wars like the one in Iraq "only allow hatred, violence and terror to proliferate."
We are marking the one-year anniversary of this error based on lies. Anyone who believes that this war has made the world a safer place needs only to look at the recent bombings in Spain. All we have done is make it harder for us to fight these terrorist groups because we have committed most of our resources to a war in a country that was not a threat to us but, if anything, was a threat to Al Qaeda. (see my quote from Reagans Secretary of the Navy, In the Iraq thread)
You go on believing that Iraq was not a threat, Whomod. Those of us not blinded by anti-Bush hate will look beyond your venom to the larger picture.
David Kay, despite saying that WMD's were not found, and in his opinion are unlikely to ever be found, said that Iraq was in clear material breach of U.N. treaty and WMD restrictions. Iraq was prepared to produce WMD's as soon as U.N. sactions would have been lifted from Iraq.
The U.N. records showed thousands of missing weapons. Again, as said many times, U.N. inspectors evaluated these numbers from Saddam's own military inventory records.
We all know that Saddam exterminated about a million of his own people.
Mass graves are being unearthed all over Iraq.
And back to David Kay's report again, even though WMD's were not found, Kay said that it's fortunate that we invaded, because Iraq's scientists in a Saddam Iraq collapsing under its own weight, would have created a nuclear technology/arms bazaar, which the U.S. invasion prevented.
So in every way except some trumped-up "legal" technicalities, the Iraq invasion is a good thing, for both Iraq, and for the world.
The Spanish election, despite your spin of it, was a vote for Al Qaida.
Spain's election outcome weakens the international resolve to fight terror. Spain is withdrawing its troops. All that says is that they are intimidated by the Madrid bombing, to the point that they are withdrawing troops.
The success of which, for Al Qaida, encourages more pre-election terror bombings, in other countries, including the United States.
If Spanish voters had stood strong (the government voted out was ahead in the polls before the bombing, Spanish voters were unquestionably swayed by the bombings ) then Al Qaida would likely not try pre-election bombings in the future.
But after the Spain election...
Now I fully expect an October bombing in the United States.
I'll wake up every day in October prepared for a bombing incident in the United States.
As G-man said, as Charles Krauthhammer said, as Britney said, as many others utilizing their common sense have similarly concluded, Spain's vote was one made from intimidation and cowardice.
And it only encourages similar terror attacks.
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"This Man, This Wonder Boy..."
- from Do Racists have lower IQ's...
Liberals who bemoan discrimination, intolerance, restraint of Constitutional freedoms, and promotion of hatred toward various abberant minorities, have absolutely no problem with discriminating against, being intolerant of, restricting Constitutional freedoms of, and directing hate-filled scapegoat rhetoric against conservatives.
EXACTLY what they accuse Republicans/conservatives of doing, is EXACTLY what liberals/Democrats do themselves, to those who oppose their beliefs.
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Posts: 5,958
some RKMB'ers are Obsessed with Black People Hmmm? 5000+ posts
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some RKMB'ers are Obsessed with Black People Hmmm? 5000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 5,958 |
It's amazing to me that Bush is never wrong, never misinformed and anyone who disagrees with his Administration is instantly and always wrong. Entire nations are wrong, millions of voters are wrong or afraid if they don't vote to Bush's satisfaction, countless millions worldwide who protest the war are wrong. Sceientists and beuaracrats who speak out on what they know to be to be lies are wrong (ONLY when they contradict or dispute an Administration assertion of course If they happen to agree with Bush, then their expertise is impeccable). Any reports contradicting Bush's conclusions are wrong of course. After years of this logic, I think people are starting to wise up.
Now that Congress has pending legislation (S 89 and HR 163) to prepare for a military draft (after the election), we might think twice about the consequences of continuing to believe what President Bush tells us.
Incidentally,when the French resisted our call to invade Iraq, French fries became "freedom fries," etc. So are we to now get "freedom rice" and (my favorite) "the freedom inquisition" ?
Last edited by whomod; 2004-03-20 12:07 PM.
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 34,236 Likes: 15
"Hey this is PCG342's bro..." 15000+ posts
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"Hey this is PCG342's bro..." 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 34,236 Likes: 15 |
Quote:
whomod said:
It's amazing to me that Bush is never wrong, never misinformed and anyone who disagrees with his Administration is instantly and always wrong. Entire nations are wrong, millions of voters are wrong or afraid if they don't vote to Bush's satisfaction, countless millions worldwide who protest the war are wrong. Sceientists and beuaracrats who speak out on what they know to be to be lies are wrong (ONLY when they contradict or dispute an Administration assertion of course If they happen to agree with Bush, then their expertise is impeccable). Any reports contradicting Bush's conclusions are wrong of course. After years of this logic, I think people are starting to wise up.
Now that Congress has pending legislation (S 89 and HR 163) to prepare for a military draft (after the election), we might think twice about the consequences of continuing to believe what President Bush tells us.
Incidentally,when the French resisted our call to invade Iraq, French fries became "freedom fries," etc. So are we to now get "freedom rice" and (my favorite) "the freedom inquisition" ?
And it's amazing to me that you instantly term any possible misunderstanding a "lie". You claim to be offended by those that you believe have preconceived notions about the President, yet you are far worse than they will ever be.
Hypocrite.
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 |
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