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Age with BeautyRoger Clemens is still unbeaten, still moving up the career victories list and still putting on a great show. Clemens became the oldest pitcher to win his first nine decisions, allowing three hits in 6 2/3 shutout innings Tuesday night to lead the Houston Astros over the Seattle Mariners 1-0. "They're coming in good spots," Clemens said. "We just need to continue to play well. The wins are great. When they come in situations like this, where you get one run in two days and get a split, that's nice." Forty-one-year-old Clemens (9-0), backed by Morgan Ensberg's seventh-inning sacrifice fly off Joel Pineiro (1-8), got his 319th win to move past Phil Niekro into sole possession of 14th place on the career list. "The guys I've tied or passed, it's just icing on the cake for me," said Clemens, who came out of a brief retirement to pitch for his hometown Astros. "I felt anything that happened this year was just a great deal of fun. I never expected to be here." The six-time Cy Young Award winner struck out seven, increasing his total to 4,187, and walked a season-high five. Clemens improved to 23-14 against Seattle, the most wins by a pitcher against the Mariners. "When I was little, I had a poster of him in my room. Not a bad guy to look up to," said Pineiro, who pitched a strong game but lost his career-high seventh straight decision. A crowd of 34,238 gave Clemens a standing ovation when he left in the seventh. "It's really nice. I've enjoyed coming to Seattle," Clemens said. "I've had some fun in the old stadium and this stadium. I don't know that you would consider tonight a lot of fun. It wasn't comfortable at any point." Houston's 1-0 lead held up when Brad Lidge got the final out of the seventh and escaped a jam in the eighth. Lidge gave up a leadoff triple in the eighth to John Olerud, but got Bret Boone on a fly to shallow right, then struck out Scott Spiezio and pinch-hitter Dave Hansen. The Mariners, who had won three in a row, stranded 12 runners. "I never like to make it interesting," Lidge said. "That's the kind of situation we don't like to be in, but our bullpen has done a fantastic job of getting out of jams and everybody has contributed." Clemens made it interesting, too. He opened the seventh by hitting Hiram Bocachica with a pitch, and Bocachica made a great play by sliding into Jose Vizcaino to break up a likely double play when Ichiro Suzuki grounded to shortstop. That was it for Clemens, who threw 118 pitches. "We were real fortunate," Clemens said. "The play at home was a nice break for us. Baggy got back and touched home. He said the first time he hit it. From that point on, Brad and I tried to be as stingy as we could." Clemens began to miss in the fifth, when Seattle loaded the bases with two outs. Martinez had fans on their feet when he lofted the first pitch from Clemens to right field, but it was a harmless fly. Seattle missed another chance in the sixth. Boone hit a one-out double and Spiezio walked on four pitches. Clemens briefly looked vulnerable, but he got Rich Aurilia to fly out and struck out Wilson looking. "We had more opportunities than they did," Seattle manager Bob Melvin said. "They only had three hits. We definitely had more chances, but couldn't come through when we had to."
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Personally, the whole Clemens thing makes me sick.
Starting with his tired and trite: "I've done it all and now I just want to spend time with my kids" mantra that he spewed last year at EVERY interview in EVERY city where EVERY team and EVERY fan gave him his due and honor.
I mean, if he hadn't COMPLETELY decided to retire then why the fuck didn't he just tell us instead of pimping himself out all last fucking season and getting all those "parting" gifts?
Clemens playing this season is complete chickenshit and I could care less how he does... Or doesn't.
9-0?
It's a long season.
Fuck him.
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i completely agree.
though... in a severely less harsh manner.
i think its absolutely amazing how well he's doing this year. and, truth be told, last year, i knew it was too early for him to retire -- that, if he wanted to, he could easily continue for atleast another 3 years.
i didn't think he should have retired ... but he did. and he made the decision way early on in the season. every time he was asked if he was sure about retiring, he held steady. every time he was told to change his mind, he held steady.
and he got everything out of it that a hall of famer of his calibur deserved. all the extra recognition, all the extra coverage, all the special ceremonies at each game that was his last in whatever ballpark -- even a special all-star birth he truly didn't deserve.
...but then ...
he just changed his mind and came back.
and, honestly, i don't fault him for that. i don't hate him more now or something. its his choice, and why not play as long as you can?
i just think it leaves a very bittersweet taste to his memorials and ceremonies -- like making a horrible and unnecessary sequel to a truly classic movie.
just dudn't seem right.
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I don't think it's that much of a surprise.
I believe he had every intention of retiring...and, for the most part, he kind of is retired. He has the same kind of contract Nolan Ryan had with the Rangers in the early 90's. He shows up for his starts, pitches, and other than that he has pretty much free reign. He doesn't have to fly with the team, so he can spend a lot more time with his family in Houston, and that was what mattered to him. If Houston hadn't offered him a contract, or if the contract didn't allow him time to spend with his family, I'm 100% sure Roger Clemens would be sitting in a boat with his kids fishing right now.
As for the "horrible sequel to a classic movie", I doubt Astros fans see it that way. Furthermore, when Clemens left Boston and was viewed as nearing the end of his career, I doubt Blue Jay and Yankee fans viewed his resurgence as a horrible sequel then, either.
I'm a big Clemens fan, so I'm happy to see him pitching well, especially with one of my favorite teams. I think he'll finish the year with fairly typical numbers, though. His early success can probably be attributed to the fact that it's a new league and a lot of NL hitters hadn't seen him yet.
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Yeah I was a bit harsh...
I'll admit I never was a big Clemens fan.
ESPECIALLY after leaving Boston and going to the Yankees, but there was no argument about the considerable skills and the dedication that he brought to his game...
I also used to think that as he considers himself such a Texan, he was would also consider himself a man of his word.
Geez, that's two lyin' Texans this week!
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Quote:
Animalman said:
As for the "horrible sequel to a classic movie", I doubt Astros fans see it that way.
some people like horrible sequels.
"batman and robin" made 100 million just in the states.
neither changes the overall picture.
Quote:
Animalman said:Clemens left Boston and was viewed as nearing the end of his career, I doubt Blue Jay and Yankee fans viewed his resurgence as a horrible sequel
the movie hadn't ended yet. it was the dramatic lowpoint before the "return of the king."
the credits rolled when he officially left baseball.
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
the movie hadn't ended yet. it was the dramatic lowpoint before the "return of the king."
To you, maybe, but how do you think Boston fans felt?
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they felt the same way any team feels when they lose a player. thats not uncommon. even if the player was not his best, then good on the new team (boggs, benetiz, bonds ... and thats just the b's!)
the difference here is that roger clemens left the game of baseball, not a team -- and left in a big way. he had his "farewell tour 2003." they gave him all the honors and the accolades and played that special music from "the natural" when he came out to the mound. each crowd gave him their "final good bye," many stadiums gave him a special ceremony or memorial of sorts. the all star game position was given, not rewarded, to him.
it was a big ordeal, announcing his departure and followed by his departure. .... which was then summarily erased by his return.
again, i'm not mad at the guy. truthfully, he was never a favorite of mine (he shoudln't have won the 86 mvp over donnie!!!  ). and though it may seem like i do, i don't fault his decision to return.
i just think that (1) he shouldn't have retired (or, at least, shouldn't have announced and certified his retirement for the entire season) and (2) his return, heralded or otherwise, demystifies his career in my eyes, as it taints his farewell tour from the year before -- just as a bad sequel taints a great movie.
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I'll tell ya. I was sad to see him go. The last couple of seasons were marked by injuries and his obvious dislike of the new manager and GM. When he became a free agent, I was torn between wanting the pitcher who had several good seasons in Boston (though his postseason numbers weren't great) and letting the pitcher who was "obviously" nearing the end of his career go. Then he went to Toronto. And he pitched well. And I was pissed. At management for not keeping him and that Clemens himself - for leaving and because I wondered if he was just biding his time those last couple of seasons. And then the Yankees. At the risk of offending Rob and any other Yankee fans out there, I'll understate the obvious: I was not happy. When he "retired", I said goodbye to a pitcher who gave this fan many good memories as a member of the Red Sox and not-so-good memories as a member of the BJ's and Satan's team (kidding). mostly, I said goodbye to one of the best pitchers I had ever seen. But I wasn't surprised when he signed with Houston - the rumor mill made it almost a foregone conclusion. I'm glad he's doing well for a pretty good team. I like that the NL Central is more fun and exciting for his being there. And I'm happy that, if we don't have him, at least New York doesn't have him either. But I'll still boo the shit outta him if and when he comes to pitch in Boston... 
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Hate Clemens. Saw him strike out 20 Mariners. The man should retire and give teams a chance.
"You kind of get tired giving the other team credit. At some point you've got to look in the mirror and say 'I sucked.'"
Alex Rodriguez, after the NY Yankees were eliminated from the 2006 ALDS by the Detroit Tigers.
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I am a huge Yankees fan, have been since Reggie.
But I found it truly awesome when Petitte signed with the Astros, and then ultra-coincedentally, Clemens shows up too!
That was a great kick in Steinbrenner's face, and for some reason, I love it.
As for him stepping aside and giving hitters a chance, I am so glad he is pitching.
There is such a lack of awesome pitching that guys like him are what are keeping baseball alive. It's such a slugfest, especially with interleague play, I hope he inspires others to greatness.
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Good thing we preserved the integrity of the All-Star game last year when Roger Clemens was forced onto the team, and a player was shelved without him even being told about it(can't remember who that was...one of Oakland's pitchers, I think). After all, it was the final season for Clemens, and had we not had him on the All-Star team, it would've given the game a black eye from which it could never possibly recover.
And that's terrible.
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It was Barry Zito, and he was "shelved" because he had pitched two days before the All Star game and the coach didn't want to be held responsible for an injury.
Besides, Clemens had pitched well enough to earn a trip anyway, and that was hardly the most objectionable selection. The whole "let's represent everybody" thing was much worse. Lance Carter, All Star? Mike Williams had a great career up to that point, but when selected in 2003 he had a 6.44 ERA and 5 blown saves, at the all star break!
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clemens didn't earn the spot, at all. zito won it, clemens was given it, only because he was "retiring."
not that its a huge problem, or anything... roger didn't suck, and barry wasn't invincible. and i didn't lose any sleep over it (though i honestly think barry did).
but its more than obvious the spot was simply made for roger on his farewell tour.
...
whoops!
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
clemens didn't earn the spot, at all. zito won it, clemens was given it, only because he was "retiring."
No, not "only". Obviously people wanted to see Roger pitch, but if Zito hadn't thrown 8 innings two days before the Allstar game, it would have never been an issue. Plus, as I said, Roger was having a good year. He even had the same number of wins as Zito at the time, 8.
This wasn't some mandate by the MLB office. It was the manager's call, and it's happened countless times. Pitchers throw on the last day of the first half, and are replaced on the Allstar team.
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if roger made no announcement and played 4 more years, he wouldn't have been on the team and no one would have said anything.
torre made the call because it was roger's last year. it was a career reward, not a seasonal one. that was well documented and to refute or nitpick it is silly.
i'm not upset with the decision, nor to i fault it, but the reason it was made is obvious -- carrying that further is nitpicking.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
It was Barry Zito, and he was "shelved" because he had pitched two days before the All Star game and the coach didn't want to be held responsible for an injury.
Even if things were as nice and simple as that, somebody still should've let Zito know about it before it was announced to us.
And that's terrible.
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It really shouldn't have been a surprise to Zito though. Two days rest isn't enough even for 1 inning in an exhibition game. If he really thought he was going to go then he's an idiot.
"You kind of get tired giving the other team credit. At some point you've got to look in the mirror and say 'I sucked.'"
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
if roger made no announcement and played 4 more years, he wouldn't have been on the team and no one would have said anything.
Who do you think would have been on the team instead?
Quote:
torre made the call because it was roger's last year. it was a career reward, not a seasonal one. that was well documented and to refute or nitpick it is silly.
I won't refute that Clemens' career had a lot to do with Mike Scioscia making the call(I will certainly refute that it was the "only" reason, though), but stuff like that happens all the time, and given the fact that Clemens had All Star caliber numbers anyway, I don't see a problem with it, especially considering some of the other selections.
As to Kristogar's comment, should Zito have been told? Absolutely. Don't state it as if it's somehow Clemens' fault, though.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
Who do you think would have been on the team instead?
i'll start with zito 
otherwise, i don't remember the statlines from last summer. but i do know that it wouldn't have been the rocket, who was not in the running.
Quote:
I won't refute that Clemens' career had a lot to do with Mike Scioscia making the call(I will certainly refute that it was the "only" reason, though), but stuff like that happens all the time.
once again, i'm not saying its a bad thing, nor am i saying i disagree with it. "knowing" it was roger's last year, i absolutely think he earned the "consolation" spot. his career warranted the position, hands down.
my gripe is, as it always has been, in the fact that it wasnt his last year, thus meaning he got all the accolades and freebies "unfairly."
please read my above posts for a fuller clarification on my stance before commenting on the brevity of the proceding paragraph. i just didn't feel like reiterating.
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
i'll start with zito
....and I already told you he was going to be left off, like guys who pitch right before the All Star almost always are. If you want to argue that Clemens became the first choice because of his career achievements, that's fine, but arguing that the whole thing was a setup solely to get Rocket on the team is, quite simply, incorrect.
Quote:
otherwise, i don't remember the statlines from last summer. but i do know that it wouldn't have been the rocket, who was not in the running.
He had as many wins(8) as fellow all stars C.C Sabathia and Barry Zito, and a similar ERA(3.68) to that of fellow all star and eventual Cy Young winner Roy Halladay(3.64). Plus, he was leading the league in strikeouts at the time. For a guy who "wasn't in the running", he sure had good numbers.
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which must be weird, since he, quotes or otherwise, wasn't in the running.
it wasn't my selection process -- rather, it was those a lot more familiar with the statistics and scenario than you or i.
they didn't pick roger. whine to them.
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Quote:
it wasn't my selection process -- rather, it was those a lot more familiar with the statistics and scenario than you or i.
they didn't pick roger. whine to them.
Umm....I'm not saying Clemens should have been selected initially. I'm not even saying Clemens was statistically far and away the best choice to replace Zito.
I'm saying that it was close(based on seasonal or career merit), and that, given the circumstances, Clemens was a fine choice, both for the fans to watch and the players to help win.
I'm also a little curious as to how you consider my statements whining. Afterall, I'm defending the decision...it's you two who seem to be dwelling on it. Not that I'd accuse you of whining, but the label would seem to be far more applicable in your case.
Oh, how I do miss these old debates. Me, stating facts, you....well, you typing all funny, as only you know how. Good times.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
As to Kristogar's comment, should Zito have been told? Absolutely. Don't state it as if it's somehow Clemens' fault, though.
...? Show where I did that?
There's a history of pitchers going on little rest into the All-Star game. It's not like All-Stars are determined at the beginning of the season and managers adjust their rotations accordingly. A big reason why the game ended in a tie two years ago(another black eye from which the game will NEVER recover, EVER) is that a lot of pitchers on both sides had little rest and were refusing to go more than two innings(one guy even pitched to only one batter). The difference last season was that they wanted to put Clemens on the team. I haven't looked it up, but I'm willing to bet that a couple of guys last year also had little rest going into the game. Zito just happened to be the most obvious example, and thus, was terminated.
And that's terrible.
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Quote:
Kristogar Velo said:
...? Show where I did that?
Why? I wasn't saying you did. I was saying don't.
Quote:
A big reason why the game ended in a tie two years ago(another black eye from which the game will NEVER recover, EVER) is that a lot of pitchers on both sides had little rest and were refusing to go more than two innings(one guy even pitched to only one batter).
No, it wasn't the pitchers, it was the managers who didn't want to be held accountable for an injury. The pitchers wanted to go out there and finish it(Freddy Garcia, who was the last guy to pitch for the AL, said he begged Torre to let him continue).
Quote:
I haven't looked it up, but I'm willing to bet that a couple of guys last year also had little rest going into the game.
You'd lose that bet. I just looked it up and no starting pitcher chosen had pitched so soon to the All Star game. I didn't look at the relief pitchers(that would have taken forever), but for them it's not a big deal, since they're used to pitching an inning every few days. Zito pitched 8 innings.
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animalman. please, PLEASE read my posts. focus on the points they contain, and not simply a phrase or grammatical error you take offense to.
ill sum it up for you here, despite the fact that i've proclaimed it in every post within this very thread already:
clemens was selected to pitch in the all star game last year because he was retiring. it was a gift to him, because of his great career.
i agree with that decision. i was bummed that he was initially not selected or considered.
then, when reversed, i thought it was a cool gesture to put him on the team (despite the confusion to get him there).
season ends. he retires. ... he un-retires. in my mind, and in my point from post 1, that sorta undoes the kind gesture awarded to him the year before.
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Just some playful ribbing, Gobbert. Just some playful ribbing.
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Quote:
clemens was selected to pitch in the all star game last year because he was retiring. it was a gift to him, because of his great career.
i agree with that decision. i was bummed that he was initially not selected or considered.
Not unlike what the NBA did for Kareem Abdul Jabbar in his last year. He was barely averaging 10 ppg and 5 rpg and still went. However the NBA created an extra roster spot for him so he wouldn't take the place of someone who deserved to go.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
Why? I wasn't saying you did. I was saying don't.
Um...okay, I'll make sure not to do something...that I wasn't doing...and wasn't considering doing...drill sergeant. 
Quote:
No, it wasn't the pitchers, it was the managers who didn't want to be held accountable for an injury. The pitchers wanted to go out there and finish it(Freddy Garcia, who was the last guy to pitch for the AL, said he begged Torre to let him continue).
So let's just ignore the pitcher on the NL side--Padilla, I believe--whose reluctance to pitch the 12th forced the tie in the first place. There were no pitchers beyond Garcia and Padilla who wanted to finish it. A lot of players had already left the stadium at that point. And go ahead and ignore the guy who only pitched to one batter in the '02 game...none other than Barry Zito.
Quote:
You'd lose that bet. I just looked it up and no starting pitcher chosen had pitched so soon to the All Star game. I didn't look at the relief pitchers(that would have taken forever), but for them it's not a big deal, since they're used to pitching an inning every few days. Zito pitched 8 innings.
Can't believe you looked it up, but the point still stands, there's a history of pitchers going on little rest. It's easy to compensate for--just do the Curt Schilling approach to the AS game and throw nothing but fastballs in the strike zone. You make it sound as if no pitcher can move his arm after a couple days' rest...most of them throw on the side on their days off. It's not like Zito couldn't have been kept as an emergency pitcher, but they needed to axe someone to make room for Clemens. On a normal year, Zito would've been on the team and may have even pitched in the game to one batter.
And that's terrible.
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Quote:
Kristogar Velo said:
You make it sound as if no pitcher can move his arm after a couple days' rest...most of them throw on the side on their days off.
You're not listening. It's not about whether or not the pitcher CAN. It's about what the managers feel comfortable allowing them to do. No-one(clarification: no-one in the front office or managerial positions of the teams not to mention those running major league baseball) wants to risk injuring a star, especially one who pitches on a team competing for a division title.
Same kinda thing with most sports, as well as the Olympics. Not saying it's right, but that's the way it is.
Quote:
On a normal year, Zito would've been on the team and may have even pitched in the game to one batter.
I'm sorry, that's simply not true. Look over the rosters of the last decade or so. It happens a lot.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,170
I have gas. 2000+ posts
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I have gas. 2000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 2,170 |
Also, when a player throws on the side, he isn't necessarily throwing as hard as he is in a game. Sometimes they only throw about 20 or so pitches as well.
"You kind of get tired giving the other team credit. At some point you've got to look in the mirror and say 'I sucked.'"
Alex Rodriguez, after the NY Yankees were eliminated from the 2006 ALDS by the Detroit Tigers.
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 34,236 Likes: 15
"Hey this is PCG342's bro..." 15000+ posts
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"Hey this is PCG342's bro..." 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 34,236 Likes: 15 |
Plus, when a player uses steroids and throws on his side, that's double effective!
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