RKMBs Forums .::Important::. Politics and Current Events Yet another political tard fest

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Batwoman said:
No it hasn't, but "what the debate between saying Merry Christmas or Happy Hanukkah has to do with secularism...."
is as I said. There is a huge trend, or whatever you want to call it, of secularizing everything, and it's wrong.

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rex said:
Since when did whomod care what other people said? I think he's upset that this thread hasn't erupted into a flame war.

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whomod said:
I find it amazing that in this day and age, peoples religion can still be effectively manipulated for political gain. Be it in the middle east with radical islam to here in America, where we think we're more sophiosticated than that.

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I went to the root cause which is oversensitivity on BOTH sides.

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Batwoman said:
since I served the first 2 in the tech booth.

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Batwoman said:
I don't have time to get the story right now, but when I got home a while ago, I happened to catch a piece on Fox News about a school district on NJ that banned not only Christan Christmas music but ones that say Santa as well, for the Christmas concerts, so that they don't offend anyone.

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wannabuyamonkey said:

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I went to the root cause which is oversensitivity on BOTH sides.

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Are you calling ME oversensitive? Who the hell do you think you are? I don't know if that is supposed to be a veiled attack on my personal character or my physical appearance, but I have the sneaking suspision it's both and probobly calls into question my parrentage as well, so to that I say SCREW YOU, you don't know me and if my parrents were alive to hear this they would curse your name!(my folks are alive, byt the way, they just aren't arround to hear this) Next you'll probably have something snide to say about the fact that I said (or typed) hear instead of read well, you can just....wait what were we talking about?.....hmm...... Oh yea, oversensitivity, well I think YOU are the one who's oversensitive so deal with that!

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Darknight613 said:
I believe I've mentioned developing a genuine mistrust of journalists lately, so I don't take anything I see on the news at face value, no matter how many sources report it. And besides, after that article from mediamatters MEM posted, I don't think my skepticism towards the story was out of line (then again, how can I take what mediamatters says at face value?)

But if it is a true story, I repeat my earlier comment: who the heck are all these people being offended by Santa and Christmas carols and all that? None of my fellow Jews that I know are bothered by it. I've yet to hear any Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, or any other faith say that they're offended by Christmas. I know a bunch of liberals who are really into Christmas and wouldn't lift a finger against it. So who are the people supposedly blocking the Christmas stuff worried about?

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rex said:

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whomod said:
I find it amazing that in this day and age, peoples religion can still be effectively manipulated for political gain. Be it in the middle east with radical islam to here in America, where we think we're more sophiosticated than that.

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Yes, because we are killing people that call this time of year the Christmas season.

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whomod said:
No. My point was that people are allowing others to inflame their passions by using their faith and using the idea that it's somehow under attack.

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Seriously though, merry christmas and a happy new year.

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rex said:

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whomod said:
No. My point was that people are allowing others to inflame their passions by using their faith and using the idea that it's somehow under attack.

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Its nowhere near the same thing. I keep forgetting that you know better than that.

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Batwoman said:

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rex said:

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whomod said:
No. My point was that people are allowing others to inflame their passions by using their faith and using the idea that it's somehow under attack.

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Its nowhere near the same thing. I keep forgetting that you know better than that.

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Exactly. We're talking about religous displays and sayings here, specifically. NOT the crap that goes on in the Middle East. and believe you me, I know better than anyone on these boards what's going on there. Or have you forgotten that I'm Middle Eastern?

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It's EXACTLY the same thing.

You think that because you two aern't blowing shit up, people aern't using your religion to stoke negative passions in yourselves?

It's different degrees of the same manipulation for the political benefit of others.

Follow the faith, not those religious spokespeople who call people to arms in defense of your faith. My faith is between me and my lord. Fuck anyone and everyone else! And my not being able to wish people Merry Christmas at a public school or someone having a video shop in Afghanistan is going to change that.

I dunno..... How did Jesus' message of love get lost in all this suspicion and hating?

Geez... I dunno. Right now, my thoughts are that we, all the different faiths on earth are all being manipulated towards some great inescapable conflaguration.

Which is why I have faith in my lord but I have deep suspicion towards organized religion in general. Historically speaking, it's always been an instrument of control and conflict.

So right now, i'm gonna get to bed so I can drive to my moms house in San Berdardino tommorow. I'm going to have a nice Christmas dinner and we're going to celebrate Jesus and again and i'm going to flip the bird to FOX News which seems to be working overtime to inflame passions here at home among Christians in of all times, the time when we're celebrating the prince of peace.

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Tension Over Christmas Observance Begins

By RICHARD N. OSTLING, AP Religion Writer

It's weeks before Thanksgiving but already interest groups are preparing for an intense year of conflict over Christmas observances by cities and public schools, with one conservative group lining up hundreds of attorneys to work on the issue.

Communities and courts have long fielded protests against municipal creche displays and school Nativity pageants, based on strict views of church-state separation and sensitivity toward religious minorities.

In recent years, however, local disputes have extended — to carol singing, wordless instrumental music, Christmas trees and decorations, classroom visits by Santa Claus, distribution of Christmas-themed cards and gifts, "Merry Christmas!" greetings and designation of Christmas on official calendars.

This week, the Alliance Defense Fund, a Christian legal group based in Scottsdale, Ariz., announced that its 800 cooperating attorneys have volunteered to handle without fee complaints about "improper attempts to censor the celebration of Christmas in schools and on public property."

In 2004, the second year of its "Christmas Project," affiliated attorneys sent a detailed memo on ADF's view of Christmas and constitutional law to 7,000 school districts. The 2005 effort, already under way, adds city officials.

A similar information campaign is being waged by Liberty Counsel, another Christian legal group based in Orlando, Fla., and the Christian Educators Association International, representing 8,000 public school teachers.

The topic also is the subject of a polemic by the Fox News Channel's John Gibson that is selling briskly: "The War on Christmas: How the Liberal Plot to Ban the Sacred Christian Holiday Is Worse Than You Thought."

Gibson, who calls himself a "non-practicing Christian," notes that his Jewish son researched the book. He says agitation against Christmas observance comes primarily from "secularists, so-called humanists, trial lawyers, cultural relativists and liberal, guilt-wracked Christians."

The American Civil Liberties Union is targeted in another new book, "The ACLU vs. America: Exposing the Agenda to Redefine Moral Values" by ADF's Alan Sears and Craig Osten. The ACLU doesn't initiate all the complaints and lawsuits, the authors say, but it created the environment for widespread anti-Christmas efforts.

Even as Christmas is suppressed, these writers complain, schools sometimes encourage Ramadan, Hanukkah and Kwanzaa observances.

ACLU religion director Jeremy Gunn was in meetings and unavailable, a spokeswoman said. But an official ACLU bulletin says the Constitution forbids school observances "that promote or emphasize the religious significance" of Christmas, but not aspects "that have become part of our country's secular culture." The ACLU has repeatedly fought displays with religious themes on public property.

Under Freedom Forum First Amendment Center sponsorship, the ACLU has come to agreement with evangelical and other religious groups on minimal rules about school religious issues. On holidays, the accord says schools may celebrate secular aspects and "objectively teach about their religious aspects" but not observe them as religious events.

Americans United for Separation of Church and State also endorsed the accord.

Spokesman Rob Boston said "about 95 percent of the whining from the far right" over Christmas is for fundraising purposes. "They're trying to get people worked up so they will think Christmas is being removed from public life," Boston said. "There isn't any evidence that's happening."

Americans United believes "public schools aren't the appropriate place to celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday. That's a job for the home and the church," he said. The Supreme Court's rule that towns' Nativity displays must add secular symbols proves that if people "want a truly religious experience, city hall is not the place," Boston added.

Michael Johnson of Shreveport, La., an ADF staff lawyer, says his group merely wants to "defend the rights of the 96 percent of Americans who celebrate Christmas" and is not trying to evangelize. He thinks ACLU's goal is "ultimately to silence people of faith, and in many cases people of the Christian faith."

The Rev. Charles Nestor, an Assemblies of God minister in Lakeland, Fla., supports the legal fight. But his Web site also promotes "Operation Nativity", urging Christians to "flood the country" with Nativity displays at their homes, churches and businesses.

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]Lowe's, a leading home improvement retailer, has joined Target and many other retailers that are striving to be "politically correct" this Christmas shopping season. He says the Lowe's stores are now selling fresh-cut "holiday" trees.

"The second-largest home improvement company in America no longer sells Christmas trees," he says. "They've decided that it's more politically correct to sell 'holiday' trees -- therefore their signs in front of their stores [say they] will sell you a 'holiday' tree."

Sharp calls the strategy "just another ridiculous example" of how companies are avoiding the true meaning of Christmas in their marketing in an attempt to prevent offending anyone. "[But] in reality," says Sharp, "they're offending a large base of their consumers."

He adds "this is the most ridiculous thing I believe I've heard this Christmas season, for a company to become so politically correct."

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the G-man said:
'O Holiday Tree, O Holiday Tree'

]Lowe's, a leading home improvement retailer, has joined Target and many other retailers that are striving to be "politically correct" this Christmas shopping season. He says the Lowe's stores are now selling fresh-cut "holiday" trees.

"The second-largest home improvement company in America no longer sells Christmas trees," he says. "They've decided that it's more politically correct to sell 'holiday' trees -- therefore their signs in front of their stores [say they] will sell you a 'holiday' tree."

Sharp calls the strategy "just another ridiculous example" of how companies are avoiding the true meaning of Christmas in their marketing in an attempt to prevent offending anyone. "[But] in reality," says Sharp, "they're offending a large base of their consumers."

He adds "this is the most ridiculous thing I believe I've heard this Christmas season, for a company to become so politically correct."

I wonder they market Menorahs as "Holiday Candle Holders"?

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December 25 is the winter solstice (Julian Calendar). It is the time when the sun after having been at the lowest point in the heavens, beings to rise over the world with renewed vigor and power. It was the time of heathen festivities in worship of the sun. The vernal equinox is the point where the sun crosses the celetial equator, about March 20, making day and night of equal length everywhere. This was the time of pagan spring festivals.

The day of December 25 acquired a new significance under the rule of Emperor Aurelian. He proclaimed this day as "Dies Natalis Invicti Solis," or the Birthday of the Unconquered Sun. This was because of a strange Eastern religion, Mithraism, whose god Mithras was identified with the Unconquered Sun. During the Saturnalia work of every kind ceased. Schools were closed.

Saturn, in whose honor this feast was held, was the oldest and most benign deity in ancient Italy and was fabled to have reigned during the Golden Age. This was conceived by the Romans as an era in which plenty abounded and nothing had appeared to corrupt and mar the peace and happiness of mankind. But since that time the world had gone from bad to worse. The lust of gold and the lust of blood had brought disastrous evils. The dream of an Age of Gold was widespread in the pre-Christian world. The Greeks taught men to think of it as followed by the Silver, Bronze, and Iron Ages. These ages marked the steady declension and degeneration of mankind. But they looked for the eventual return of a Gold Era. This spirit of Gentile expectancy was that of a millenial, and King Saturn would reign.

As the Saturnalia returned each year it brought with it thoughts of the peaceful reign of Saturn long, long ago, when all men were happy and all men were good.

The Roman Saturnalia was boisterous. But whatever the behavior of some Romans, others were simply merry. They ate big dinners, visited their friends, etc. The halls of the Romans were decked with boughs of laurel and of green trees, with lighted candles and with lamps--for the hovering spirits of darkness were afraid of light. Bonfires were lit in high places to strengthen the reviving sun in his course. Candles and green wreaths were given as presents, the streets were crowded with noisy processions of men and women carrying lighted tapers, and public places were decked with flowers and shrubs. The practice of giving and receiving presents was almost as common then as it is now at Christmas. Our present day "Christmas spirit" is actually the spirit of this old Roman festival.

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Pariah said:
You see, this is the funny part about the date-changing argument. While there are hundreds of pre-Constantine calenders that denote the birth of Christ being in Dec. 25, there has been neigh to no evidence indicating that the pagan holiday was even in December. I'm not saying the Pagans didn't convert over the holiday, but I find that there's more evidence that they conformed to the Catholic holiday date more than the Church did theirs.

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Darknight613 said:

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Pariah said:
You see, this is the funny part about the date-changing argument. While there are hundreds of pre-Constantine calenders that denote the birth of Christ being in Dec. 25, there has been neigh to no evidence indicating that the pagan holiday was even in December. I'm not saying the Pagans didn't convert over the holiday, but I find that there's more evidence that they conformed to the Catholic holiday date more than the Church did theirs.

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What I find interesting is that Hannukah, which usually coincides with Christmas (or what we know as Christmas today), begins on the 25th of the Hebrew month of Kislev.

It's a heck of a coincidence that two holidays in the same time period occur on the same day of their prospective months.

Or is it?

At this point, I'm not engaging in anything other than idle speculation and posting something that popped into my head. I plan to look into this in detail when I have the opportunity. I'm curious to see whether this either is a coincidence, or if one influenced the other.

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r3x29yz4a said:
well i know that the actual date of christ's birth is unknown or lost (assuming he existed at all, but that's not that point here). It was Constantine the first Christian emperor of Rome who decided to place a celebration for Christ on the winter solstice. This was to make the transition from paganism to christianity easier as they were already used to celebrating on that day anyway.
Historians think Constantine may have been less of a convert and more the wise ruler. He saw that Christianity was on the rise and would overtake pagans. So he introduced Christianity through Pagan imagery. Such as his seeing a vision of Jesus in the Sun (Sun God being a major God to the Pagans, and thus seen as an endorsement).

Anyway, that's all I remember from the documentary I saw. To learn more visit your local library. Or wait for Pariah to tell you how I'm wrong and that slavery is good for society.

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Pariah said:

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r3x29yz4a said:
well i know that the actual date of christ's birth is unknown or lost (assuming he existed at all, but that's not that point here). It was Constantine the first Christian emperor of Rome who decided to place a celebration for Christ on the winter solstice. This was to make the transition from paganism to christianity easier as they were already used to celebrating on that day anyway.
Historians think Constantine may have been less of a convert and more the wise ruler. He saw that Christianity was on the rise and would overtake pagans. So he introduced Christianity through Pagan imagery. Such as his seeing a vision of Jesus in the Sun (Sun God being a major God to the Pagans, and thus seen as an endorsement).

Anyway, that's all I remember from the documentary I saw. To learn more visit your local library. Or wait for Pariah to tell you how I'm wrong and that slavery is good for society.

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Notice how r3x ignores my assertion and goes straight for "Historians say" and "documentary I saw".

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r3x29yz4a said:
I ignore your posts 90% of the time now. I only look at them really when you're quoting me.

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Pariah said:
You see, this is the funny part about the date-changing argument. While there are hundreds of pre-Constantine calenders that denote the birth of Christ being in Dec. 25, there has been neigh to no evidence indicating that the pagan holiday was even in December. I'm not saying the Pagans didn't convert over the holiday, but I find that there's more evidence that they conformed to the Catholic holiday date more than the Church did theirs.

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magicjay38 said:
A wise old Jesuit priest once told me that the entire myth of the Nativity of Christ was culled from Old Testament prophecies. When the first of the Gospels was written there was no one around that would actually remember the event so they put together this story. Like the OT says the Messiah would be born in Bethlaham despite all indication that he was a Galilean. No one knows the exact day or year he was born since there were no records of such things kept. The Jesuit went on to cite all the OT passages that made up the myth. But what would he know. He was just a Jesuit after all and we know how stupid they are, right Pariah?

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Pariah said:

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magicjay38 said:
A wise old Jesuit priest once told me that the entire myth of the Nativity of Christ was culled from Old Testament prophecies. When the first of the Gospels was written there was no one around that would actually remember the event so they put together this story. Like the OT says the Messiah would be born in Bethlaham despite all indication that he was a Galilean. No one knows the exact day or year he was born since there were no records of such things kept. The Jesuit went on to cite all the OT passages that made up the myth. But what would he know. He was just a Jesuit after all and we know how stupid they are, right Pariah?

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Riiiiight. You really expect any of us to believe that you think a Catholic priest is "wise".



Sure MagicJay, suuuuuurre.

You're gonna have to do better than a word of mouth chance encounter with a "Jesuit priest".

No Jesuit I have ever spoken to--And trust me, I've spoken to plenty--Has ever considered anything within the Old Testament as myth. No real Catholic would since that's exactly what the religion entails.

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