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Captain Sammitch said:
[God wants willful obedience. Obedience because we want to. Obedience because we love God. A God who can do anything hardly needs robots to do His work for Him.
Then, again, if he's omni-powerful, why not create beings bestowed with the will to obey him? You said it yourself, He can do *anything*.
And, using your own words, why does a God "who can do anything" need anybody else anyway, obedient or otherwise?
And if A & E ate of the tree of knowledge...so what? Can anybody explain why it was so bad for Adam and Eve to have this knowledge?
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Jim Jackson said:
Then, again, if he's omni-powerful, why not create beings bestowed with the will to obey him? You said it yourself, He can do *anything*.
Why? What perpose could that possibly serve? He's not a dictator. He told us what we need to do...and left the choice up to us. We are compelled to oblidge his will (what you may call instict...such as murder is wrong) but not obligated to do so...The results of our choices are the burdens we carry. The wieght of that load depends on our actions.
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Doesn't answer the question, though.
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Jim Jackson said:
Doesn't answer the question, though.
But it does.
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It does not answer WHY God would do any of that.
Trying to unwrap the Garden of Eden story and make it make sense with human logic is the dog chasing the tail.
Is there something so wrong with accepting that it's apocryphal?
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Jim Jackson said:
It does not answer WHY God would do any of that.
Trying to unwrap the Garden of Eden story and make it make sense with human logic is the dog chasing the tail.
Is there something so wrong with accepting that it's apocryphal?
You are expecting an answer that says 'God should have made everyone a subservient bitch....because he could!'....no? He is not like that. We (including Satan) were given a life. He gave us the approriate guidelines for living that life...but demanded nothing. Would you expect anything less from a perfect being? Is fascism perfection in your eyes?
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Jim Jackson said:
And if A & E ate of the tree of knowledge...so what? Can anybody explain why it was so bad for Adam and Eve to have this knowledge?
The tree of knowledge is of good and evil. A&E ate from the tree and knew good from bad and THEN had a choice. It was forbidden that they eat from it so that they would be obedient to god in all ways - but since the tree was THERE and unprotected it WAS willful obediance. They could disobey god if they really wanted to.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
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"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
It does not answer WHY God would do any of that.
Trying to unwrap the Garden of Eden story and make it make sense with human logic is the dog chasing the tail.
Is there something so wrong with accepting that it's apocryphal?
The answer is acctually quite curt..."because He wanted to" we can go back and forth and debate the specifics, but understanding isn't necessary to it being so. Just because we don't understand or won't accept God's reasons for doing something. I don't really understand fully why God has done every thing he's done, but I'm not so proud as to assume He required my understanding in order to do what he does "How is the vessel to say to the potter, 'why have you made me thus?'" At teh same respect all this brow beating seems less like an attemp for you to gain understanding (you've repeated questions that were answered for you in the post above) and for some reason it seems an attempt to get us Christians to accept the Book of Gebisis as apocraphal. Why is that I wonder?
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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you're very defensive for someone who believes so absolutely.
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wannabuyamonkey said:
but I'm not so proud as to assume He required my understanding in order to do what he does "How is the vessel to say to the potter, 'why have you made me thus?'"
The answer then is, as I thought it would be, that we humans simply have to accept on faith that God has His purposes. Which, to my way of thinking, means you should stop trying to make sense of the Garden of Eden story.
The "potter and vessel" metaphor doesn't fly because the potter doesn't imbue the vessel with any sense of self, awarness, perception, and an ability to question its existence.
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r3x29yz4a said:
you're very defensive for someone who believes so absolutely.
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Jim Jackson said:
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r3x29yz4a said:
you're very defensive for someone who believes so absolutely.
Ok, I love the fact that r3x in usual style decided to turn this personal, but I'll bite... how exactly am I being "defensive". I mean i am deending my faith against critisims, but this IS a discussion and I thought a little bit of an answer is better that a "f**k you". So please since you both want to make this personal I guess, please tell me how I'm being overly defensive.
Never mind.... It just makes you guys feel better somtimes by justifying your position by putting others down. This, Jim, is why my first instict was to not indulge you in your questions, because I knew it would come to this, but I thought for a second you may have had a motive other than bull baiting.
I enjoyed the conversation with SD, but I should have stuck with my 1st assumption that you weren't really interested in the topic at hand, but rather to try and show how "stupid" us Christians are.... wich you did. It was foolish for me to try and engage you in this discussion.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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wannabuyamonkey said:Ok, I love the fact that r3x in usual style decided to turn this personal, but I'll bite... how exactly am I being "defensive". I mean i am deending my faith against critisims, but this IS a discussion and I thought a little bit of an answer is better that a "f**k you". So please since you both want to make this personal I guess, please tell me how I'm being overly defensive.
It wasn't a personal jab at you, it was a serious question. If you are a s faithful as you say then this thread should actually make you happy. You're defending your faith and reaffirming it all and not backing down from what you feel is right.
That's the way I see it. We'll disagree about religion all day, but you hold on to what you believe.
Don't take this so personally. I don't know you and you don't know me. All we know is what is typed on a messageboard.
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I can do what ever I want. Now stop talking about me and go do something with your lives.
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lower case 'g'?
must be one of the Greek gods.
the Judeo-Christian god spells his name with a big G.
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That burning sensation you get when you pee is going to get a lot worse very soon.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:Ok, I love the fact that r3x in usual style decided to turn this personal, but I'll bite... how exactly am I being "defensive". I mean i am deending my faith against critisims, but this IS a discussion and I thought a little bit of an answer is better that a "f**k you". So please since you both want to make this personal I guess, please tell me how I'm being overly defensive.
It wasn't a personal jab at you, it was a serious question. If you are a s faithful as you say then this thread should actually make you happy. You're defending your faith and reaffirming it all and not backing down from what you feel is right.
That's the way I see it. We'll disagree about religion all day, but you hold on to what you believe.
Don't take this so personally. I don't know you and you don't know me. All we know is what is typed on a messageboard.
Kind words, but that seems like the opposite of what you just said.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:Ok, I love the fact that r3x in usual style decided to turn this personal, but I'll bite... how exactly am I being "defensive". I mean i am deending my faith against critisims, but this IS a discussion and I thought a little bit of an answer is better that a "f**k you". So please since you both want to make this personal I guess, please tell me how I'm being overly defensive.
It wasn't a personal jab at you, it was a serious question. If you are a s faithful as you say then this thread should actually make you happy. You're defending your faith and reaffirming it all and not backing down from what you feel is right.
That's the way I see it. We'll disagree about religion all day, but you hold on to what you believe.
Don't take this so personally. I don't know you and you don't know me. All we know is what is typed on a messageboard.
Kind words, but that seems like the opposite of what you just said.
Jesus loves you.
So do his amigos Juan and Paco.
Bow ties are coool.
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