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because it is the truth. It is the truth because the bible says so.
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Mr. DeLay: Ever is a very strong word.
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I've always seen the various religions as different ways of looking at the same power. Whatever they want to call G-d or however many aspects of G-d they want to personify, it's the same force they're worshipping. So each religion or mythology is the valid one for its own practitioners. It's just a question of which one feels right to them. Judaism feels right to me, so I stick with it.
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For starters, the bible is grounded in reality. It does not proclaim fantastic events to explain why there is lightning or how the sun rises every morning. The fact the Christianity has survived so long and claimed such an important stake in human history, literaly defining world events across many nations and cultures, also attests to its truth. If there was nothing to it to grasp onto, no ring of truth, then it would not move so many people so profoundly.
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Quote:
klinton said:
For starters, the bible is grounded in reality. It does not proclaim fantastic events to explain why there is lightning or how the sun rises every morning. The fact the Christianity has survived so long and claimed such an important stake in human history, literaly defining world events across many nations and cultures, also attests to its truth. If there was nothing to it to grasp onto, no ring of truth, then it would not move so many people so profoundly.
Doesn't god create mankind from dust? much like the aboriginal creation myths.
Heaven is very similar to Olympus and Asgard in many respects.
And the reason there's not a lot of explanations for the world around us is because instead of attributing one god to each event (like the sun, wind, death) everything has the explanation of "god did it."
The reason its lasted so long is because way back when it gained a foothold in the Roman empire and the emperor (I think Constantine) converted and then adapted much Pagan mythology to christianity in order to unite the empire.
Then years of brutal forced conversions placed seeds of Christianity throughout the world.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Doesn't god create mankind from dust? much like the aboriginal creation myths.
Heaven is very similar to Olympus and Asgard in many respects.
And the reason there's not a lot of explanations for the world around us is because instead of attributing one god to each event (like the sun, wind, death) everything has the explanation of "god did it."
The reason its lasted so long is because way back when it gained a foothold in the Roman empire and the emperor (I think Constantine) converted and then adapted much Pagan mythology to christianity in order to unite the empire.
Then years of brutal forced conversions placed seeds of Christianity throughout the world.
You really need to work on your history. All of this is false.
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Does the catholic church approve of chicks with dicks?
To bring it back on topic, are there any chicks with dicks in ancient mythology?
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Watching Whomod troll is pretty sad. Especially since he loved to brag how he was always above it.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
The reason its lasted so long is because way back when it gained a foothold in the Roman empire and the emperor (I think Constantine) converted and then adapted much Pagan mythology to christianity in order to unite the empire.
Then years of brutal forced conversions placed seeds of Christianity throughout the world.
You really need to work on your history. All of this is false.
All of it? Your sure about that? The part about Constantine sounded partially accurate, at least.
How 'bout educating us as to the true story?
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
All of it? Your sure about that? The part about Constantine sounded partially accurate, at least.
How 'bout educating us as to the true story?
For one, it was never said that God created us out of "dust" and Olympus and Asgard don't even remotely resemble Heaven. Then there's r3x's assertion and outline for Christiantiy lasting so long, "cuz' God did it", is based off of his assumption that it was some sort of ploy by Constantine. Constantine, before his conversion from seeing the cross in the sky, was not a ruler who honed any Christian values. He totally changed. If Constantine's conversion was hollow, it would have shown, he'd have no reason to hide it since he pretty much dominated. And as ruler, he didn't integrate pagan mythology into Christianity nor did he brutally mass convert people.
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Pariah said:
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Darknight613 said:
All of it? Your sure about that? The part about Constantine sounded partially accurate, at least.
How 'bout educating us as to the true story?
What? If you're gonna claim that something's false, the least you could do is back it up and tell us the true version rather than just say "you're wrong." That's not unreasonable, is it?
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For one, it was never said that God created us out of "dust" and Olympus and Asgard don't even remotely resemble Heaven.
Notice that I left that part out.
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Then there's r3x's assertion and outline for Christiantiy lasting so long, "cuz' God did it", is based off of his assumption that it was some sort of ploy by Constantine...
...and as ruler, he didn't integrate pagan mythology into Christianity nor did he brutally mass convert people.
Uh...I don't think that's what r3x was saying. He said that Christianity gained a major foothold when Constantine converted. That much, at least, is true.
The way I understood history, Constantine's conversion to Christianity gave legitimacy to Christianity in the Roman Empire. Constantine put an end to Christian persecution, freed Christian prisoners, and called a meeting of bishops to settle debates over doctrine which led to the Nicene Creed and the unification of the church.
As for forced conversions and the oppression of pagans, that came later on down the line.
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Uh...I don't think that's what r3x was saying. He said that Christianity gained a major foothold when Constantine converted. That much, at least, is true.
He shouldn't have left out why Constantine became Christian if this was the case. In the earlier part of his post he scoffed at the thought that God had a part in the Church going on as long as it has, which was exactly the reason he went on to talk about his reign.
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Whether Constantine's conversion was legitimate or political is up for hisotrical debate. You can't deny the fact that by converting he picked up a large minority and helped stabilize the empire (and consolidated his power)and possibly prevented a civil war.
And there were many elements of Pagan belief that he introduced into Christian mythology. Christmas is a redress of Winter Solstace.
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I believe the dust aspect doesn't come directly from the bible, but from gnostic beliefs. Its something I'd heard in church as a child.
I was using it as a simple analogy to the Aboriginal belifs, as I used Heaven and Asgard as analogies of various afterlifes where the dead are rewarded.
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how is the bible any more valid?
it isn't!
And I heard this from a priest who stated that to think your religion is above others is stupidity at it's worst. Because blind belief wouldn't last in the long run. You always have to be skeptical about what you believe in.
And in regards to Klinton's comment of it not touching people profoundly if it were any different than it is now.
Nonsense.
Of course it would. People are basically stupid and will believe anything you put before them as long as they want to believe. Or if they are afraid that something they've thought of as truth might be a lie
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Whether Constantine's conversion was legitimate or political is up for hisotrical debate.
It's from the horse's mouth. He saw the cross. He changed himself. He had no reason to go that far.
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You can't deny the fact that by converting he picked up a large minority and helped stabilize the empire (and consolidated his power)and possibly prevented a civil war.
Yes I can. Christianity wouldn't have been his only/best option in that case. And there wasn't much of a "threat" of civil war at the time. Did he unite the continent and stabilize his position moreso (I say "moreso" because it wasn't very unstable in the first place)? Perhaps. But that can't be used as a sole indicator
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And there were many elements of Pagan belief that he introduced into Christian mythology. Christmas is a redress of Winter Solstace.
No. It's not.
Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Christ with a trivial tree inserted into the holiday customs by commercialist culture. Nowhere in the Christian doctrine does it dictate that trees and presents are a why of celebrating Christmas (although technically, the giving and being generous part can be considered as such). Same thing goes for the Easter Bunny. Nowhere is it said by Christians that the Easter Bunny is some sort of holy symbol. The candy companies merely capitolized on a largely celebrated holiday like the fast food joints putting fish burgers on sale during lent.
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Quote:
Pariah said:Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Christ with a trivial tree inserted into the holiday customs by commercialist culture. Nowhere in the Christian doctrine does it dictate that trees and presents are a why of celebrating Christmas (although technically, the giving and being generous part can be considered as such). Same thing goes for the Easter Bunny. Nowhere is it said by Christians that the Easter Bunny is some sort of holy symbol. The candy companies merely capitolized on a largely celebrated holiday like the fast food joints putting fish burgers on sale during lent.
There was no real knowledge or record of when Jesus was born. But it certainly wasn't being celebrated in late december. By changing the winter solstace into a christian holiday it allowed pagans to feel more comfortable celebrating a christian holiday on their already sacred time, while christians would see it as their day and not mind the formerly pagan holiday.
And the Christmas tree didn't come in until years later.
What Constantine did was more of a stroke of political genius. There was a lot of strife in the empire, his subtle blending of paganism into christianity helped to stabilize things and unite a lot of people behind him.
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Quote:
Chant said:
how is the bible any more valid?
it isn't!
The Bible is substantiated by more than just itself. Accurate recounts by historians reveal evidence in favor of its credibility.
Quote:
And I heard this from a priest who stated that to think your religion is above others is stupidity at it's worst. Because blind belief wouldn't last in the long run. You always have to be skeptical about what you believe in.
How is it that you think that statement is more valid because it "came from a priest"?
Christianity doesn't teach "blind belief". It doesn't teach to be "skeptical" though either. To be skeptical of one's own religion whilst after choosing to believe destorys all credibility. I was taught to do my homework on the subject of Catholicism and I did, as did others I know, and we came to the conclusion after deliberation that it was the correct way to go. That's not preaching blind belief, it's pragmatism. Problem is, modern commercialism and etiquette have used trial by majority to seperate words like "logical" and "pragmatic" from religion simply because they don't want to be caught red-handed saying or implying that they believe in a God or higher power.
Just because you don't hear or see it on the telly doesn't mean it doesn't carry merit.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
There was no real knowledge or record of when Jesus was born. But it certainly wasn't being celebrated in late december. By changing the winter solstace into a christian holiday it allowed pagans to feel more comfortable celebrating a christian holiday on their already sacred time, while christians would see it as their day and not mind the formerly pagan holiday.
Your innaccurate description of the deciphering of Christ's birth aside, the fact that the Christian holiday wasn't at all changed through evolving the customs for the sake of the pagans makes your case moot. That doesn't merge paganism with Christianity in how you've denoted it.
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What Constantine did was more of a stroke of political genius. There was a lot of strife in the empire, his subtle blending of paganism into christianity helped to stabilize things and unite a lot of people behind him.
Yeah, but you see, he didn't blend paganism into Christianity. He converted Pagans into Christians.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Chant said:
how is the bible any more valid?
it isn't!
The Bible is substantiated by more than just itself. Accurate recounts by historians reveal evidence in favor of its credibility.
I think the historic credibility and philosophical credibility of the Bible are two different things. I don't think there are many people who would argue against the former.
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Pariah said:
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And I heard this from a priest who stated that to think your religion is above others is stupidity at it's worst. Because blind belief wouldn't last in the long run. You always have to be skeptical about what you believe in.
How is it that you think that statement is more valid because it "came from a priest"?
Agreed. It's no more credible a statement coming from a man of the cloth than anyone else.
It's also no better than using a scientist (or ex-scientists) remarks on evolution to help validate creationism.
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Pariah said:
Christianity doesn't teach "blind belief". It doesn't teach to be "skeptical" though either. To be skeptical of one's own religion whilst after choosing to believe destorys all credibility. I was taught to do my homework on the subject of Catholicism and I did, as did others I know, and we came to the conclusion after deliberation that it was the correct way to go. That's not preaching blind belief, it's pragmatism. Problem is, modern commercialism and etiquette have used trial by majority to seperate words like "logical" and "pragmatic" from religion simply because they don't want to be caught red-handed saying or implying that they believe in a God or higher power.
Are you saying that skepticism never figured into you homework on the subject of Catholicism? Also, who were these people you deliberated with?
I ask because I'm interested in knowing how you came into your belief.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Chant said:
how is the bible any more valid?
it isn't!
The Bible is substantiated by more than just itself. Accurate recounts by historians reveal evidence in favor of its credibility.
Quote:
And I heard this from a priest who stated that to think your religion is above others is stupidity at it's worst. Because blind belief wouldn't last in the long run. You always have to be skeptical about what you believe in.
How is it that you think that statement is more valid because it "came from a priest"?
Christianity doesn't teach "blind belief". It doesn't teach to be "skeptical" though either. To be skeptical of one's own religion whilst after choosing to believe destorys all credibility. I was taught to do my homework on the subject of Catholicism and I did, as did others I know, and we came to the conclusion after deliberation that it was the correct way to go. That's not preaching blind belief, it's pragmatism. Problem is, modern commercialism and etiquette have used trial by majority to seperate words like "logical" and "pragmatic" from religion simply because they don't want to be caught red-handed saying or implying that they believe in a God or higher power.
Just because you don't hear or see it on the telly doesn't mean it doesn't carry merit.
no, the bible doesn't teach blind faith, people does. People do so because of how they interpret the bible.
Credibility, let's talk about that. The bible is, when it comes down to it, a history book. It recounts a line of historical events, whether actual or fictional. So obviously, it has some credibility.
Is it anymore valid than other religions? The fact that it has actual historical events gives credit to it.
But when you compare the message of the bible to other religions....
God created the world in 6 days and did gobs of other stuff versus creation stories and other stuff of other religions. C'mon, it isn't the slightest bit more credible.
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AGW said:
I think the historic credibility and philosophical credibility of the Bible are two different things. I don't think there are many people who would argue against the former.
No, I mean post Biblical happenings. Joan of Arc, St. Francis of Asissi, Virgin Mary and the Dancing Sun, the Lourdes Fountain etc.. Also a few historical accounts parallel to the Bible made by Josephus who confirmed miracle performed by Christ.
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AGW said:
It's also no better than using a scientist (or ex-scientists) remarks on evolution to help validate creationism.
They aren't just "remarks" Wednesday. Even though those scientists' findings have been debunked, they're still accepted today--Everywhere--Which was my point. Embryonic Recapitualtion: Proven false, yet still in the biology books. Australopithecus: No evidence of humanity but still in the biology books. Evolution itself: No proof to substantiate it, yet it's still widely publicized.
I never focused so much on the scientists as I did on their research that the science community has takin' to be undisputed truth,
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AGW said:
Are you saying that skepticism never figured into you homework on the subject of Catholicism? Also, who were these people you deliberated with?
My point was we weren't automatically skeptical to something simply because it involved extraordinary implications. Essentially I was taught to question and understand why I should believe anything. While my teachers did say that Catholicism was the reight way to go, they would never go into hysterics if we decided to research other religions. And Chant is making a broad generlization that entails the priests and seminaries who taught me religion.
As for who I deliberated with, my mom thought it would be best for me if I spent time at a Christian boarding school, and I got to know the class, you know. Anyway, I just find that Chant's judgemental statement is very.....Well, judgemental.
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Quote:
Chant said:
God created the world in 6 days and did gobs of other stuff versus creation stories and other stuff of other religions. C'mon, it isn't the slightest bit more credible.
Yeah it is actually. As I recounted to Wednesday, there were documented and wtinessed miraculous events post Biblical that make more of a case for Christianity. Neither the Hindu religion nor the Qur'an have any prophetic elevation.
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I'll address the "dust". Yes, it is biblical, but it's not talking about dust as in the little white particles that float in the light, it's talking about dirt. Genesis 2:7 7 And God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul. Genesis 3:19 By the sweat of your face will you eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For you are dust, and to dust you shall return.
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klinton said:
For starters, the bible is grounded in reality. It does not proclaim fantastic events to explain why there is lightning or how the sun rises every morning.
perhaps much of the new testament is ground in reality (similar to, no offense to anyone, how a batman comic is ground in reality). but the old testament is pretty out there.
notably, the first few passages where an omniscient god creates the earth, the sky, the water, the animals, and humans in a lil less than a week.
then, contradicting itself in the very next verse, an anthropomorphic and fallable god descends from above and walks the earth with man.
thats pretty zeusy.
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klinton said:
The fact the Christianity has survived so long and claimed such an important stake in human history, literaly defining world events across many nations and cultures, also attests to its truth. If there was nothing to it to grasp onto, no ring of truth, then it would not move so many people so profoundly.
it all depends on who is in charge on earth.
the egyptians had their reign for a few hundred years. then, bam, a new pharoh came to town and said "no no, lets do it this way," and changed the whole notion. people followed. same thing with greek gods having their few hundred years. but, whoops, here comes the romans! now y'gotta change all the names.
modern christianity is simply massive, is the current "ruler" in much of the western world, partially due to technology permitting expansion and exploration for a few hundred years, where other cultures accepted (forcibly or otherwise) that same teaching, spreading across the globe.
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i've always been interested in this topic, mostly because, as i grew older, i could no longer understand the "rules" of religion. for example, in dante's inferno, there's a section of hell laid out specifically for those born before christ. they couldn't worship him, so they must have been pagans. that seemed bloody unfair. just a novel, true. but 'twas the result, and source, for many a belief. other such moments in the bible picture a non-too-happy lord, acting similar to the prankster-like greek gods. for example, later in genesis, one of abraham's stories involves god saying to abe "hey, if y' really love me ...hmmm... kill your son isaac!" abraham is like, "well... that sux0rz, but... alright fine." and, right before he slices up his son, god comes back and says "nah, just kidding! psyche!  " that type of story doesn't seem possible with our modern, "loving god." going further, its not clear which stories in the bible are moral lessons or actual events. the story noah's ark sounds as false as can be, and yet there are continual claims that individuals can locate the remains of the ark. stranger still -- the story of a global flood can be tied to nearly every religion on the planet, appearing in some of the earliest transcribed archives on earth (mesopotamian, i believe). i'd think, if anything, that would lend credence to other religions being "just as valid" as our modern take.
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
notably, the first few passages where an omniscient god creates the earth, the sky, the water, the animals, and humans in a lil less than a week.
Psalms 90:4 'a thousand years in your sight are as a day'
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then, contradicting itself in the very next verse, an anthropomorphic and fallable god descends from above and walks the earth with man.
Huh?
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The egyptians had their reign for a few hundred years. then, bam, a new pharoh came to town and said "no no, lets do it this way," and changed the whole notion. people followed. same thing with greek gods having their few hundred years. but, whoops, here comes the romans! now y'gotta change all the names.
modern christianity is simply massive, is the current "ruler" in much of the western world, partially due to technology permitting expansion and exploration for a few hundred years, where other cultures accepted (forcibly or otherwise) that same teaching, spreading across the globe.
Christianity has outlasted any major faith...due to it's basis in fact. We are not talking about a couple hundred years. We are talking thousands now.
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Quote:
klinton said:
Christianity has outlasted any major faith...
Except Judaism.
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Quote:
klinton said:
Christianity has outlasted any major faith...
Except Judaism.
'tis true. I was refering to the 'religions' outlined in the thread title.
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Quote:
klinton said:
Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
then, contradicting itself in the very next verse, an anthropomorphic and fallable god descends from above and walks the earth with man.
Huh?
in the first portion of genesis, god is omniscient and omnipotent, creating the universe as a divine deity would, from sky to man.
just a few pages later, he appears in eden, with adam, walking around in human form, completely unaware of the transpiring regarding the apple.
Quote:
klinton said:
Christianity has outlasted any major faith...due to it's basis in fact. We are not talking about a couple hundred years. We are talking thousands now.
please inform the jews (the religion of christ)
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
it all depends on who is in charge on earth.
I feel the story of Joan of Arc and Constantine's conversion make the best case here, not to mention Exodus in reference to your case about Egypt. Joan was told by God to make Europe the Christian capitol of the world and she succeeded. Constantine was converted by a cross in the sky and spread Christianity. Moses was told to free the jews and teach devotion to them. S'all a divine setup.
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Rob Kamphausen said:
just a few pages later, he appears in eden, with adam, walking around in human form, completely unaware of the transpiring regarding the apple.
How does being expectant of the truth make him non-omnicient?
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Rob Kamphausen said:
please inform the jews (the religion of christ)
As a Catholic I retain the assertion that we are Jews simply fulfilled. Klinton's not off there. We still retain their beliefs of Yaweh but also accept the newly fulfilled covenant.
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
just a few pages later, he appears in eden, with adam, walking around in human form, completely unaware of the transpiring regarding the apple.
Ummm...no. He speaks to Adam(his son...how odd to show affection and present yourself in a comprehendable manner to your son...we as human parents might never think to do something like this), yes...But to assume that He was unaware of anything is presumptuous. He created all. Have you ever stepped back and wondered if maybe this was allowed to happen (immediately after the fact He uttered the first prophecy upon mankind). The universe is infinite....all His works. It is logical that He would allow a portion of that to defy His will, if for no other reason than to prove to the infinite others the results of such defiance (just a theory...).
Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
Quote:
klinton said:
Christianity has outlasted any major faith...due to it's basis in fact. We are not talking about a couple hundred years. We are talking thousands now.
please inform the jews (the religion of christ)
It was not the religion of Christ...dumbass. He spent a large part of his ministry deconstructing it...
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Quote:
Pariah said:
How does being expectant of the truth make him non-omnicient?
i never read it as god being expectant of the truth.
Quote:
Pariah said:
As a Catholic I retain the assertion that we are Jews simply fulfilled. Klinton's not off there. We still retain their beliefs of Yaweh but also accept the newly fulfilled covenant.
fair enough.
though others who do not share that definition, including myself, would feel christianity has not outlasted other major faiths.
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klinton said:
But to assume that He was unaware of anything is presumptuous.
perhaps. though, its mostly presumptuous for anyone to read anything into the bible, isn't it?
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klinton said:
Have you ever stepped back and wondered if maybe this was allowed to happen (immediately after the fact He uttered the first prophecy upon mankind). The universe is infinite....all His works.
It is logical that He would allow a portion of that to defy His will, if for no other reason than to prove to the infinite others the results of such defiance (just a theory...).
also possible if we're "presuming" god meant to have man defy him. but, as said, i never read it as such. to me, the text presented itself as god taking on a more human form (like a pre-jesus), and having human-like qualities (walking, talking, physical form, questioning, etc).
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klinton said:
It was not the religion of Christ...dumbass. He spent a large part of his ministry deconstructing it...
whoa-hoa. first off, this is a discussion on religion. lets not bring up irony.
secondly, christ, from my readings, was disgusted by the modern representation and bastardization of the jewish religion in his time (spilling the tables of money, visiting those shunned by others), etc. however, he was still jewish.
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
i never read it as god being expectant of the truth.
In terms of context, it didn't reveal any signs but I highly doubt your implication that Genesis was being inconsistent. God being a figure who's a proponent of truth, I feel, pretty much makes my case. Anywho, I just don't see the contradiction.
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though others who do not share that definition, including myself, would feel christianity has not outlasted other major faiths.
Well, the least you have to admit is that Christianity is derivative of Judaism. And added to that is the fact that it still keeps all of the Jewish belief system (albeit some of the practices have been optimized or changed if you wish).
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How is the Bible more valid?
Because there's historical evidence outside of it about the events contained therein, including the fact that Jesus walked the Earth.
With that said, the Bible is hardly a flawless work. There's also historical evidence that dinosaurs walked the Earth, yet the Bible makes no mention of them. So does that invalidate everything, or just the Creation story?
I'm Catholic, but one still has to wonder.
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Quote:
Chant said:
how is the bible any more valid?
it isn't!
And I heard this from a priest who stated that to think your religion is above others is stupidity at it's worst. Because blind belief wouldn't last in the long run. You always have to be skeptical about what you believe in.
And in regards to Klinton's comment of it not touching people profoundly if it were any different than it is now.
Nonsense.
Of course it would. People are basically stupid and will believe anything you put before them as long as they want to believe. Or if they are afraid that something they've thought of as truth might be a lie
It's not blind belief Christians should believe in christainity through fulfilled prophecy..there is no other gauge for a religion's authenticity.
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there is eveidence that he destroyed the earth previously..
It mentions leviathan..which wasn't a whale..that is bullshit...
Historic places are being found all the time...scientists try to disprove the bible all the time but they really can't..give me any example of a scientist disproving the bible other than... say miracles..which are just that...
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dust is larger than microbes, proteins, enzymes. bacteria..so if God wanted to tell a simplistic man how he was made he would say dust, because that would've been the smallest thing they could comprehend...
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Quote:
Pig Iron said:
there is eveidence that he destroyed the earth previously..
It mentions leviathan..which wasn't a whale..that is bullshit...
Historic places are being found all the time...scientists try to disprove the bible all the time but they really can't..give me any example of a scientist disproving the bible other than... say miracles..which are just that...
To add onto that, there's geological exposition that shows there was a world-wide flood and also support that it was indeed a meteor that leveled Sodom and Gammorah.
I hate scientists who research something merely to disprove it.
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