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SliderACH said:
How is the Bible more valid?
Because there's historical evidence outside of it about the events contained therein, including the fact that Jesus walked the Earth.
show me the facts of jesus walking the earth!
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Quote:
Chant said:
Quote:
SliderACH said:
How is the Bible more valid?
Because there's historical evidence outside of it about the events contained therein, including the fact that Jesus walked the Earth.
show me the facts of jesus walking the earth!
there were these footprints on the beach.
oh, wait. that was god carrying me.
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Quote:
Chant said:
show me the facts of jesus walking the earth!
there are historical, non-religious references to jesus. he was an actual man. i don't have any specific texts to prove this, but i took a whole series of classes on the subject that did, if that counts 
the difference being christians believe him to be the son/embodiment of god, from an immaculate conception. that is the debatable part, from a religious perspective -- even the jewish faith recognizes his life (just not his "rank," so to speak)
but from a historical perspective, he was real.
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
Quote:
Chant said:
show me the facts of jesus walking the earth!
there are historical, non-religious references to jesus. he was an actual man. i don't have any specific texts to prove this, but i took a whole series of classes on the subject that did, if that counts
the difference being christians believe him to be the son/embodiment of god, from an immaculate conception. that is the debatable part, from a religious perspective -- even the jewish faith recognizes his life (just not his "rank," so to speak)
but from a historical perspective, he was real.
last I heard there still was no DEFINITIVE proof that he was real beyond biblical texts.
And history that far back can be sketchy. Given how he was treated by the Romans and how history skews things, in 2000 years Christians may mention David Koresh as the second coming.
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Quote:
Chant said:
Quote:
SliderACH said:
How is the Bible more valid?
Because there's historical evidence outside of it about the events contained therein, including the fact that Jesus walked the Earth.
show me the facts of jesus walking the earth!
yeah, obviously, when I say Jesus, I mean Jesus "I am the son of God" (said with an apocalyptic voice) not Jesus "I am a carpenter" (said with a normal low pitched voice)
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on a related note, did you guys know that apparently blasphemy is illegal in Greece
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r3x29yz4a said:
last I heard there still was no DEFINITIVE proof that he was real beyond biblical texts.
And history that far back can be sketchy. Given how he was treated by the Romans and how history skews things, in 2000 years Christians may mention David Koresh as the second coming.
In other words, you haven't managed to produce any conclusive evidence to support your challenge to what's been established, and you're trying to shove the burden of proof onto your opposition.
And I highly doubt Christians will be accepting David Koresh as anything other than a heretical nutcase who got what he had coming in the near future. Of course, I'm only saying that because, you know, I have familiarity with Christian theology. Not that that gives me any more authority to speak on this than you or anything. 
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Captain Sammitch said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
last I heard there still was no DEFINITIVE proof that he was real beyond biblical texts.
And history that far back can be sketchy. Given how he was treated by the Romans and how history skews things, in 2000 years Christians may mention David Koresh as the second coming.
In other words, you haven't managed to produce any conclusive evidence to support your challenge to what's been established, and you're trying to shove the burden of proof onto your opposition.
because I'm not the one saying he was real, or if he did exist that he was the son of god. If you want to claim something, then the burden of proof falls on you.
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Quote:
Chant said:
on a related note, did you guys know that apparently blasphemy is illegal in Greece
Hypothetical qestion:
Say it was common and physically confirmed knowledge that God existed and he was of Christian principles. Would you consider it unjust for putting someone in the lock up for denying that he is THE God.
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Pariah said:
Quote:
Chant said:
on a related note, did you guys know that apparently blasphemy is illegal in Greece
Hypothetical qestion:
Say it was common and physically confirmed knowledge that God existed and he was of Christian principles. Would you consider it unjust for putting someone in the lock up for denying that he is THE God.
That's a good question..... I think that could be it's own thread..... seriously.
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Jesus fulfilled prophecy that was written 2,000 years before he was bormn..if you bothered to read the Bible then you'd realize he did judt that..
if you have read anything other than Tom Sawyer i'd be surprised Chnat because you obviously don't understand the bible.
Granted, even the skeptics say it was a well thought out ruse and he just studied the old testament and followed all of the prophecies to a T..Only 1,000 OR 1,500....But then again, we are all perfect and can do that..
Chant, you are so stupid and just don't want to see reason..atleast throw out an arguement against Christ...say he conspired the whole thing , or give us proof he didn't exist..something...
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I read in the book Battle for God (which chronicles the extremist factions of the big 3 religions over the years) that many theologians (hard to word to spell, and I think I got it wrong) believe that some parts of the Jesus story were lifted from the Moses story to make him more acceptable as the "chosen one" to Jews. The main thing was the whole "kill the first born baby" part of the story which is almost identical to the Moses story.
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r3x29yz4a said:
I read in the book Battle for God (which chronicles the extremist factions of the big 3 religions over the years) that many theologians (hard to word to spell, and I think I got it wrong) believe that some parts of the Jesus story were lifted from the Moses story to make him more acceptable as the "chosen one" to Jews. The main thing was the whole "kill the first born baby" part of the story which is almost identical to the Moses story.
I've never heard that before.
I may be stepping onto dangerous ground with this post, but since it's been brought up, hopefully you guys will find it interesting. And I don't think it's anything our resident Biblical scholars don't already know.
If I understand correctly, the New Testament speaks of Jesus being able to raise the dead, and of the miracle of being able to feed a large amount of people with a small amount of loaves of bread, yes?
The Jewish prophets Eliyahu (Elijah) and Elishah, both performed miracles of raising people from the dead, and Elishah also performed the miracle of the loaves and the fishes.
Just thought I'd share that. Interpret as you will (I'm sure you guys will anyway.)
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Pig Iron said:
Jesus fulfilled prophecy that was written 2,000 years before he was bormn..if you bothered to read the Bible then you'd realize he did judt that..
if you have read anything other than Tom Sawyer i'd be surprised Chnat because you obviously don't understand the bible.
Granted, even the skeptics say it was a well thought out ruse and he just studied the old testament and followed all of the prophecies to a T..Only 1,000 OR 1,500....But then again, we are all perfect and can do that..
Chant, you are so stupid and just don't want to see reason..atleast throw out an arguement against Christ...say he conspired the whole thing , or give us proof he didn't exist..something...
Obviosly, you have no clue whatsoever about what I read, and no, I have never read Tom Sawyer.
And may I ask you, do YOU understand the bible? do you really?
And may I remind you, that the Bible is written by HUMANS!!
you place great value in something written by other humans when we all know that there have been an abundance of LIARS and conmen throughout history!
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Oh, and one more thing, are you saying I'm stupid because I don't believe in God?
Or because I'm saying that the bible is a good book, but just that?
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. Religion is for people who want to feel safe. Want some assurances that they matter and that they're protected.
Its used to impose morality on the masses. Anyone who was truly moral wouldn't need religion to keep themself in line. They wouldn't need fear of hell to keep themself from doing wrong.
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Darknight613 said:
I may be stepping onto dangerous ground with this post, but since it's been brought up, hopefully you guys will find it interesting. And I don't think it's anything our resident Biblical scholars don't already know.
If I understand correctly, the New Testament speaks of Jesus being able to raise the dead, and of the miracle of being able to feed a large amount of people with a small amount of loaves of bread, yes?
The Jewish prophets Eliyahu (Elijah) and Elishah, both performed miracles of raising people from the dead, and Elishah also performed the miracle of the loaves and the fishes.
Nothing blasphemous there.
Because the Jews believed that Elijah had never died, they were always looking for his return. Each family would set a place for Elijah at the Passover supper. They believed that he came to each house and took a sip of wine from the glass prepared for him. The children of the family often would search outside for sight of him, and they would watch the glass closely to see if they could see a sip of wine disappear.
When Jesus began his mission of preaching, healing, raising people from the dead, and feeding large crowds of people, many people believed that he was Elijah come back to earth. And why not? Almost every miracle performed by Elijah was also performed by Jesus, or a variation was performed by Him, except on a grander scale.
Jesus himself had some to say regarding Elijah.
10 Then his followers asked him, “Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?” 11 Jesus answered, “They are right to say that Elijah is coming and that he will make everything the way it should be. 12 But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him. They did to him whatever they wanted to do. It will be the same with the Son of Man; those same people will make the Son of Man suffer.” 13 Then the followers understood that Jesus was talking about John the Baptist.
— Matthew 17:1-13 (NLT)
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Chant said:
Oh, and one more thing, are you saying I'm stupid because I don't believe in God?
Or because I'm saying that the bible is a good book, but just that?
I'm saying the bible is like any other book if you strip away the faith aspect..it must be studied to be understood on its more intricate layers and meanings...you can't just read shakespeare and truly "get it" sure you can, but there is always more that endless studying will bring out...
the Bible is just that much more complex....its seems impossible that a group of nearly illiterate men (by today's standards) could have devised such a clever ruse--with so few previous works of literature to work from and use as as tools for writing..if they did then it should still be considered the greatest book ever...
Last edited by Pig Iron; 2005-03-24 3:44 PM.
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r3x29yz4a said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Religion is for people who want to feel safe. Want some assurances that they matter and that they're protected.
Its used to impose morality on the masses. Anyone who was truly moral wouldn't need religion to keep themself in line. They wouldn't need fear of hell to keep themself from doing wrong.
im gonna have to agree
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Religion is for people who want to feel safe. Want some assurances that they matter and that they're protected.
Funny. I'm a Catholic....But I don't feel safe and secure.
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r3x29yz4a said:They wouldn't need fear of hell to keep themself from doing wrong.
There's a mindset within many religions that people should try and be good just for its own sake, not for some concept of divine reward or punishment. People should do right just because its the right thing to do.
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Why is it the right thing to do?
Seriously. Your input.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Religion is for people who want to feel safe. Want some assurances that they matter and that they're protected.
Its used to impose morality on the masses. Anyone who was truly moral wouldn't need religion to keep themself in line. They wouldn't need fear of hell to keep themself from doing wrong.
I'm not just trying to be contrary, seriously, but I've often thought that people who deny the existance of God or at least a God who's actively involved in this world and with us people do so so that thay feel safe and protected. It's easy to say you take responsibility for your own actions if you can convince yourself that no-one is there to see what you do when no one is watching or that no one can really tell how you truly feel about people. Anyone who is truly moral wouldn't try to define morality by thier own standards but recognise that they ae accountable for thier hidden sins as well as the public ones.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Pariah said:
Why is it the right thing to do?
Seriously. Your input.
I don't have a definite answer for that. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say that "The Right Thing" may be a universal truth or law that goes beyond moral codes and religious doctrine, and is simply something we should obey - such as respecting the lives, ideas, and property of other people. Maybe it's meant to be an accepted fact that doesn't need logic or rationale.
I often have the feeling that we're not supposed to know for certain the answers to certain questions, including "What Is Right?" or "What Is True?" There are certain things that perhaps only G-d Himself can know the true answer to. It's what Him G-d and the rest of us human.
However, I also think that we're still supposed to ask the questions and look for answers. Why else would humanity be given the ability to question the existence or nature of G-d, or our moral codes, or our reason for being? Why else would G-d tolerate the existence of aethesits or people who believe in "wrong" religions if he could easily reveal the right path Himself in a way that leaves no room for doubt?
Heck, why else would humans be prone to curiosity? Why do we have the ability to hope and dream and imagine about what could be? Why else would we have the capacity to make choices in our lives, for good or for bad? Why else would we have the ability to learn from our mistakes, whether we choose to do so or not? Why else would we have the capacity and desire to see ourselves, either individually or collectively, as able to become better than what we are?
I believe we're meant to question and look for answers, even if answers aren't there. It's what makes us human, and makes us special and unique from all other beings in the world.
That's why I said at the beginning of this thread that each religion is valid to the people who hold to them. There may not be a true faith for all mankind - just a true faith for each individual to follow as best they can. And perhaps not having a religion is as valid a choice for an individual to follow as having a religion.
Remember, I come from a religion that doesn't believe that all mankind has to be of the same faith in order to get into Heaven or whatnot. As long as you're a good person, you're accepted. It's not about one faith being right for everyone. It's about one faith being right for us.
(Not focusing on divine reward and punishment in the afterlife and focusing on being the best people we can be while we're alive is also part of Jewish ideaology and philosophy.)
Last edited by Darknight613; 2005-03-25 7:32 AM.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Religion is for people who want to feel safe. Want some assurances that they matter and that they're protected.
Funny. I'm a Catholic....But I don't feel safe and secure.
Don't you feel safe in believing that everything in your life is part of your god's plan? And don't you feel secure in knowing that once you die your soul will continue on?
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wannabuyamonkey said:I'm not just trying to be contrary, seriously, but I've often thought that people who deny the existance of God or at least a God who's actively involved in this world and with us people do so so that thay feel safe and protected. It's easy to say you take responsibility for your own actions if you can convince yourself that no-one is there to see what you do when no one is watching or that no one can really tell how you truly feel about people. Anyone who is truly moral wouldn't try to define morality by thier own standards but recognise that they ae accountable for thier hidden sins as well as the public ones.
The only one you're ever truly accountable to is yourself, your own conscience. A moral person wouldn't be moral because they feel they're always being watched and judged, they'd be moral because they wouldn't be able to allow themselves to act in a horrible way. They wouldn't want to act in a horrible way.
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Darknight613 said:
Remember, I come from a religion that doesn't believe that all mankind has to be of the same faith in order to get into Heaven or whatnot. As long as you're a good person, you're accepted. It's not about one faith being right for everyone. It's about one faith being right for us.
I completely agree with that. It's rather presumptuous to say that everyone who is proselytized to regarding Jesus will and should automatically and without question, shun their own centuries old religions AND cultures lest they burn in hell for all eternity.
The particular household that I was raised in is Christian but we have menorahs and stars of David prominently displayed and were taught their symbolism and meaning. So i'm probably more subconciously attuned to your faith.
I in fact would like to take it further and celebrate Passover and other Jewish holidays, like Jesus did. As a christian though.
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Remember, I come from a religion that doesn't believe that all mankind has to be of the same faith in order to get into Heaven or whatnot. As long as you're a good person, you're accepted. It's not about one faith being right for everyone. It's about one faith being right for us.
Is this trying to say that Christians don't believe the same things? Cuz' that false FYI.
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r3x29yz4a said:
Don't you feel safe in believing that everything in your life is part of your god's plan? And don't you feel secure in knowing that once you die your soul will continue on?
No. At the end of the day I'll fear my lack of worthiness because I didn't do well enough to get into His good graces. I'll leave it at that.
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Seeing as I am vastly outnumbered here, I'll end my part of the discussion by referring to my signature.
I believe it is the one thing none of you can ignore
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......You are fucking retarded.
Take your ad hominem Whomod bullshit and shove it up your ass.
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Darknight613 said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:They wouldn't need fear of hell to keep themself from doing wrong.
There's a mindset within many religions that people should try and be good just for its own sake, not for some concept of divine reward or punishment. People should do right just because its the right thing to do.
Definitely. My denomination believes that even though we can't earn God's salvation through the things we do, we ought to live the way God desires us to live out of gratitude for everything God has done for us.
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r3x29yz4a said:
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wannabuyamonkey said:I'm not just trying to be contrary, seriously, but I've often thought that people who deny the existance of God or at least a God who's actively involved in this world and with us people do so so that thay feel safe and protected. It's easy to say you take responsibility for your own actions if you can convince yourself that no-one is there to see what you do when no one is watching or that no one can really tell how you truly feel about people. Anyone who is truly moral wouldn't try to define morality by thier own standards but recognise that they ae accountable for thier hidden sins as well as the public ones.
The only one you're ever truly accountable to is yourself, your own conscience. A moral person wouldn't be moral because they feel they're always being watched and judged, they'd be moral because they wouldn't be able to allow themselves to act in a horrible way. They wouldn't want to act in a horrible way.
fair enoug, but with either philosophy there ARE most likely people who do it because it makes them feel safe and secure, but that doesn't disprove anything. If I have to jump out of an air plane I'll wear a parachute because it makes me feel safe and secure. My feelings however don't change the fact however that I AM safer with the parachute than without it. People have motives for everything they do. Two people can have polar oposite belief systems and yet have them for the exact same reason.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Pariah said:
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Darknight613 said:
Remember, I come from a religion that doesn't believe that all mankind has to be of the same faith in order to get into Heaven or whatnot. As long as you're a good person, you're accepted. It's not about one faith being right for everyone. It's about one faith being right for us.
Is this trying to say that Christians don't believe the same things?
No, because I don't know enough about Christianity to make a claim like that. I can only speak for my own faith, which is all I was doing.
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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Quote:
Pariah said:
......You are fucking retarded.
Take your ad hominem Whomod bullshit and shove it up your ass.
why am I retarded? for stating a simple fact?
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For stating things that aren't facts (simple or not) as if they were. That certainly doesn't make you retarded in my opinion. It just doesn't suggest that you really give things much thought. Unless, of course, it's the way they do things IN SWEDEN!!! 
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Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
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Captain Sammitch said:
For stating things that aren't facts (simple or not) as if they were. That certainly doesn't make you retarded in my opinion. It just doesn't suggest that you really give things much thought. Unless, of course, it's the way they do things IN SWEDEN!!!
now see here good sir, that's just below the belt.
and for the record, I don't see how it isn't a fact.
will any of you deny that a concept created given meaning, significance by man would not exist if man did not?
Now, people might argue that even though Man did not exist, God might, and that make a lie of my arguement. Because if God exists, then certainly Faith must too.
here's my arguement against that.
The existence of God does not neccessarily mean the existence of Faith, or religion.
The other cenceopts I mentioned would have no meaning to God himself, because as an omnipotent being there would be nothing to bind him. He would owe no nation allegiance, so patriotism would be meaningless to him. None of the cenceopts I mentioned would have no meaning to him. Because all that he wants, is!
It's only until beings such as Man with a free will, comes into existance that the concepts are given any meaning. Thus, for them to have any meaning. Life must first exist.
It's actually something I've thought of long and hard.
thoghts?
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Quote:
Chant said:
now see here good sir, that's just below the belt.
I was just giving you a hard time about the IN SWEDEN!!! part. It seems to be one of your favorite taglines.  I'm just disappointed that you're always so quick to shoot down opposing ideologies without always supporting your position. 
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