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Once again, you talk down to me with lack of credence.
I never said they shouldn't be allowed to change the origin in the movie. I simply said it was a dumb thing to do--Especially since their route is more unrealistic than the previous origin. In fact, it's unrealistic. Period.
And as far as interpretation goes, in the context you're trying to go for: Interpreting something means to take a variety of different conclusions from a singular situation. The writers took their conclusions from a moment in time that stayed pretty much the same over a period of sixty years.
I just asked whether or not the general opinion here considers that the movie would have been better with the original origin rather than the one Nolan/Goyer made. Simply because I'm disappointed, that doesn't mean I'm whining. If that's become your knee-jerk perception, you need to optimize it.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
I'm whining.
Go see the movie. Now. You have to see how it is in context to appreciate it.
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
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he hasn't seen the movie?
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That is what makes it whining. He's been bitching about this for months, and everything he was really pissed about was either handled really well or not in the movie at all.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
Beardguy57 said:
I see Batman as a victim, too. He's a prisoner of his need for vengence, and his inner hurt from the death of his parents. And it WAS strange to see justice when his parent's killer was gunned down, in a Lee Harvey Oswald fashion.
Changing the premise of his parent's murder is like changing how Superman was sent to Earth, or making him from a planet OTHER than Krypton..it was not nessecary....
They didn't change the premise of his murder. They were killed by a mugger. All they did was state that the mugger was the result of an economic depression caused by Ras al Ghul. Not the same thing as the Joker killing them.
And the Superman analogy doesn't hold. As long as Krypton explodes and he's sent to Earth, its valid. Whether it was detroyed by a volcano, earthquake, or meteor doesn't really matter.
Nolan didn't have the Waynes die from a heart attack or a car crash, they were killed in a mugging.
You make very good points there. The Superman analogy is indeed not a good one. I MIGHT have said, " It would be as if Hal Jordan had just FOUND the Power ring and battery, instead of being summoned by a dying alien, who had used his own ring to find a being worthy of yielding such power. "
I did grow up reading about the Batman who never caught or knew his parent's murderer. It was just odd to see it occur in the movie, and things since Crisis, and Year Zero, are about as alien to me as a creature from a planet on the far side of our galaxy would be.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok. 
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No. Pariah has not seen the movie. He's basing his bitching on a read of the script.
Let me repeat that: He is basing his bithing on a read of the script.
You cannot read a movie and expect it to work. It has to be scene.
I have no problem with this version of Batman's origin. It makes perfect sense within the framework of this movie. It works. Nolan and Goyer struggled to find a way to tell the story in the real world. They have succeeded.
The way they used Joe Chill in this film shows exactly why there needs to be a Batman. Had there been a Batman, the DA would not have needed Joe Chill to deal to get Falcone. That was just one small little detail. Batman wants the criminals to stay in jail. He wants to eliminate the hypocrasy of the system. This lesson teaches Bruce that the system doesn't work, and that it needs help. So he becomes that help. But not right away. He has to learn how to help, and that's where he falls. He gets lost, until Ducard finds him. But his compassion is strong, and he will not kill without a trial. Just because Ra's says the man is guilty isn't enough for Bruce. It shows he still believes in the system. And that's when he realizes it needs outside help to succeed in Gotham.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Quote:
PenWing said:
No. Pariah has not seen the movie. He's basing his bitching on a read of the script.
Let me repeat that: He is basing his bithing on a read of the script.
You cannot read a movie and expect it to work. It has to be scene.
I have no problem with this version of Batman's origin. It makes perfect sense within the framework of this movie. It works. Nolan and Goyer struggled to find a way to tell the story in the real world. They have succeeded.
The way they used Joe Chill in this film shows exactly why there needs to be a Batman. Had there been a Batman, the DA would not have needed Joe Chill to deal to get Falcone. That was just one small little detail. Batman wants the criminals to stay in jail. He wants to eliminate the hypocrasy of the system. This lesson teaches Bruce that the system doesn't work, and that it needs help. So he becomes that help. But not right away. He has to learn how to help, and that's where he falls. He gets lost, until Ducard finds him. But his compassion is strong, and he will not kill without a trial. Just because Ra's says the man is guilty isn't enough for Bruce. It shows he still believes in the system. And that's when he realizes it needs outside help to succeed in Gotham.
VERY well put. Thank you. 
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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Quote:
Cowgirl Jack said:
Awesome movie, I'm so glad I got to see it Wednesday.
You're welcome.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Batman not knowing who his parents' killer is instead of Bruce Wayne knowing and deciding to gun the guy down. The faceless killer is like definitive and notably crucial to every comic version of Batman there is.
Oh. Well, I do like the idea of the faceless killer. I think that sense of knowing that he can truly never avenge his parents' death is a key part of what drives him pyschologically. Making the Joker the killer in Burton's Batman was one of the few problems I had with that movie.
I didn't dislike what they did in Batman Begins, though. His knowing the killer put him into the position of nearly becoming a killer himself. An interesting an effective storytelling tactic, in my opinion.
To be honest, I was put off a bit more by the whole prison thing, which I thought was a little too elaborate and silly.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Quote:
PenWing said:
The way they used Joe Chill in this film shows exactly why there needs to be a Batman. Had there been a Batman, the DA would not have needed Joe Chill to deal to get Falcone. That was just one small little detail. Batman wants the criminals to stay in jail. He wants to eliminate the hypocrasy of the system. This lesson teaches Bruce that the system doesn't work, and that it needs help. So he becomes that help. But not right away. He has to learn how to help, and that's where he falls. He gets lost, until Ducard finds him. But his compassion is strong, and he will not kill without a trial. Just because Ra's says the man is guilty isn't enough for Bruce. It shows he still believes in the system. And that's when he realizes it needs outside help to succeed in Gotham.
And the script told me as much. However, you forget that I wasn't critiquing it's character evolution. I was going over how the original origin is much more realistic instead of a token love interest, merciful Falcone, and a clan of ninjas.
Quote:
Animalman said:
I didn't dislike what they did in Batman Begins, though. His knowing the killer put him into the position of nearly becoming a killer himself. An interesting an effective storytelling tactic, in my opinion.
Still, would you prefer the original to this one? I mean, we already would have known he would have killed him if he knew who he was anyway.
Last edited by Pariah; 2005-06-21 10:51 AM.
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Merciful Falcone? How was he merciful?
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Still, would you prefer the original to this one? I mean, we already would have known he would have killed him if he knew he was anyway.
I guess if it's a choice between the two the  in me would choose the "original" one. As I said, pyschologically, it better explains his obsessive nature.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
Merciful Falcone? How was he merciful?
He didn't kill Bruce when he decided to try and kill him. Then he gave him a lesson of 'fear is power'. It'd just make more sense.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
He didn't kill Bruce when he decided to try and kill him.
I'm not sure I would call that mercy. He didn't view him as a threat(and he had no reason to), so he just had him beaten up and sent on his way. Besides, I doubt he really thought Bruce had the guts to do it. I doubt Bruce thought he had the guts to do it, either.
Falcone was a scumbag as he should have been. There wasn't a charitable bone in him.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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But he gave him a pep talk. I just didn't see any reason for that. Plus, it was definitive. Letting that be a pillar for the character just seems kinda weak.
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No point in rehasing things that have already been said...I just saw it this afternoon and one thought went thru my mind the whole film:
They Got It Right.
I have some small nit-picky things that slightly took me out of the moment but, none important enough to mention.
In terms of tone, characterization, pace, casting (except Katie...she was a waste), dialouge, cinemetography, etc. this was the Bat-Man film that I've wanted to see all my life.
Some things I saw that no one's mentioned yet:
The distinct difference between Gothams before The Waynes were killed and after. The city seemed to be a type of Camelot when father and son were on the train. It looked so much worse when Bruce returned from Princeton. I think it mirrored very well the comic canon that The Waynes had been killed in an upscale part of town that transformed itself into Crime Alley after the murders. This idea was applied to the whole city.
I like how the scene with the police standoff and the bats mirrored the scene in Batman: Year One.
In liked how Flass' appearance reminded of Bullock...if Bullock were a scumbag...he also looked a lot like the dirty cop/Jack Palance's flunky from the first movie.
I really enjoyed seeing Mr. Zsazs and spotting some of his self inflicted cuts.
I liked the twist at the end especially since the character involved was not the same as he is in the comics.
About the only thing that I didn't like that is important enough to mention is no focus on Bats as a detective or any training in criminology. Bats' is a serious weapon and it was cool to see how he became that way but...even in the previous movies...some time was given to Bats' detective work.
Even this negative is minor though...I know it's the origin and some things had to be left out so as not to overwhelm the casual fan. Not only that but, this movie didn't really have a great need for detective work. I'll expect to see some of that in subsequent films.
To sum up:
THEY GOT IT RIGHT.
Oderint, dum metuant.
You are a god damned idiot, you know that? You ought to be smacked upside your dumb-fuck head, even after all these years. Shame on you! -USCHI showin' some love
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Quote:
Pariah said:
But he gave him a pep talk. I just didn't see any reason for that. Plus, it was definitive. Letting that be a pillar for the character just seems kinda weak.
The "pep talk" was an old man explaining the world to a naive kid. It shows Bruce's character that instead of slinking off and giving up he went out into the world to figure a way to work outside "the way things work."
See the fucking movie and don't come back here until you do.
Bow ties are coool.
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Pariah,
You are an absolute fucking retard......absolute.
If you ever get the chance to travel in time, go back to the night you were conceived. Then go to the trailer park and make sure all that good stuff you're mising out on that ran down your mother's leg...... Sense of Humor, Good Taste, Intelligence, Heterosexuality and Common Sense......ends up going into the right place this time instead of as a puddle on the urine soaked mattress. After you accomplish this you may post in this thread again.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
The "pep talk" was an old man explaining the world to a naive kid. It shows Bruce's character that instead of slinking off and giving up he went out into the world to figure a way to work outside "the way things work."
Exactly. A pep talk.
"You wanna succeed next time, then follow my advice."
Quote:
PJP said:
Pariah,
You are an absolute fucking retard......absolute.
Knowing that I've made you lose it makes this thread all the more rewarding P. 
Last edited by Pariah; 2005-06-21 10:48 AM.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Animalman said:
Merciful Falcone? How was he merciful?
He didn't kill Bruce when he decided to try and kill him. Then he gave him a lesson of 'fear is power'. It'd just make more sense.
Bruce didn't try to kill Falcone, so why would Falcone need to try and kill Bruce? Bruce was just a spoiled rich kid while Falcone was king of the underworld with half the city in his pocket. It wasn't a pep talk. It was Falcone calling Bruce a stupid bastard who could never make it in the real world.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Quote:
Bruce didn't try to kill Falcone, so why would Falcone need to try and kill Bruce?
Why else was he trying to get to Falcone?
Quote:
It wasn't a pep talk. It was Falcone calling Bruce a stupid bastard who could never make it in the real world.
You guys can paint this one up any way you like, but in the end, he was giving him advice. His statement was less insulting and more purposefully informative. It tried too hard.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Bruce didn't try to kill Falcone, so why would Falcone need to try and kill Bruce?
Why else was he trying to get to Falcone?
Having seen the movie, I can tell you Bruce wasn't trying to get Falcone. The dialogue itself said as much. He was there as a show of courage against Falcone.
Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
It wasn't a pep talk. It was Falcone calling Bruce a stupid bastard who could never make it in the real world.
You guys can paint this one up any way you like, but in the end, he was giving him advice. His statement was less insulting and more purposefully informative. It tried too hard.
Having actually seen the movie and the people in it called actors doing something called acting, I will partially agree with you. It was advice. Advice along the lines of "Don't fuck with me you little shit. My left nut alone could squash you while my right nut does a crossword puzzle. Cuz that's what my right nut likes to do while my left nut squashes people."
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Quote:
PJP said:
Pariah,
You are an absolute fucking retard......absolute.
If you ever get the chance to travel in time, go back to the night you were conceived. Then go to the trailer park and make sure all that good stuff you're mising out on that ran down your mother's leg...... Sense of Humor, Good Taste, Intelligence, Heterosexuality and Common Sense......ends up going into the right place this time instead of as a puddle on the urine soaked mattress. After you accomplish this you may post in this thread again.
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
Having seen the movie, I can tell you Bruce wasn't trying to get Falcone. The dialogue itself said as much. He was there as a show of courage against Falcone.
So you can say with utmost certainty--Even after the token love interest's splayed out wisdom of the root of Gotham's problems (Falcone)--And even after Bruce's set ideal way of fixing problems at that point (with lethal force), that he wouldn't have tried to kill him?
Quote:
Pariah said:
Having actually seen the movie and the people in it called actors doing something called acting, I will partially agree with you. It was advice. Advice along the lines of "Don't fuck with me you little shit. My left nut alone could squash you while my right nut does a crossword puzzle. Cuz that's what my right nut likes to do while my left nut squashes people."
Which brings me back to me previous point: It would have been more logical to kill him after Bruce's display.
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What the Fuck is your problem you pathetic piece of gene trash?
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
thedoctor said:
Having seen the movie, I can tell you Bruce wasn't trying to get Falcone. The dialogue itself said as much. He was there as a show of courage against Falcone.
So you can say with utmost certainty--Even after the token love interest's splayed out wisdom of the root of Gotham's problems (Falcone)--And even after Bruce's set ideal way of fixing problems at that point (with lethal force), that he wouldn't have tried to kill him?
Bruce had tossed the gun. By that time he had already made a decision. So, no, Bruce was not there to kill Falcone.
Quote:
Pariah said:
Which brings me back to me previous point: It would have been more logical to kill him after Bruce's display.
Falcone didn't need to kill Bruce. Bruce Wayne wasn't a threat. He was just a rich kid with an attitude that a good roughing up would fix. As Falcone saw it, he had nothing to fear from Bruce. Bruce had everything to fear from him.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
Bruce had tossed the gun. By that time he had already made a decision. So, no, Bruce was not there to kill Falcone.
Specious logic. He was notably saving the gun for Chill. That doesn't mean he has reservations about killing others--Especially not simply because he doesn't have a gun. He was just as if not more proficient with his fists.
Quote:
thedoctor said:
As Falcone saw it, he had nothing to fear from Bruce.
That kind of reasoning could be used for many other people a mob boss like Falcone would have offed simply to gain a rep. He's a guy who commands/demands respect. And if he doesn't get it.....
Quote:
PJP said:
What the Fuck is your problem you pathetic piece of gene trash?
I'm waiting to see how long before I give you and Doc an aneurism.
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Christ you're about to give me one.
You've beaten this particular part of the moive into the ground and you haven't seen it yet? Good God, I'd hate to see the conversation after you've seen the movie.
Do us all a favor and move on to another part of the movie.
Ahh man... - Bianca
Ahh woman... - Pat
Bianca & Patrick ~ September 30, 2006
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
thedoctor said:
Bruce had tossed the gun. By that time he had already made a decision. So, no, Bruce was not there to kill Falcone.
Specious logic. He was notably saving the gun for Chill. That doesn't mean he has reservations about killing others--Especially not simply because he doesn't have a gun. He was just as if not more proficient with his fists.
Specious logic. There is no evidence that Bruce knew anything about fighting at that time. A gun is a simple, ranged weapon that would allow him to kill quick and easy. A hand to hand fight would require getting up close and dealing with Falcone's guards. Check and mate.
Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
thedoctor said:
As Falcone saw it, he had nothing to fear from Bruce.
That kind of reasoning could be used for many other people a mob boss like Falcone would have offed simply to gain a rep. He's a guy who commands/demands respect. And if he doesn't get it.....
... he humiliates the brat and roughs him up. You don't kill a fly with a shotgun. Bruce wasn't worth the effort, and Falcone already displayed who was the boss.
Until you actually see the movie, your critics of it mean jack. If you actually do see it, let me know and then we can actually discuss it.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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plus you are a douche Pariah.
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I'm glad I have Pariah on Ignore - why are you all wasting posts on him? Why are you defending this movie to him when he argues from his comfortable spot of ignorance? You all saw the movie. I saw the movie. We know what happened. All he has is half-formed ideas and views that you're not going to change. Ignore him.
Great movie - not a single bad performance, in my mind. Even Katie Holmes, who brought nothing to the movie, didn't hurt the movie. Gary Oldman IS Gordon!!!
Whatta fucking car chase!!!
Uschi said:I won't rape you, I'll just fuck you 'till it hurts and then not stop and you'll cry. MisterJLA: RACKS so hard, he called Jim Rome "Chris Everett." In Him, all porn is possible. He is far above mentions in so-called "blogs." RACK him, lest ye be lost! "I can't even brush my teeth without gagging!" - Tommy Tantillo: Wank & Cry, heckpuppy, and general laughingstock ![[Linked Image from i6.photobucket.com]](http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/JoeMama13/RedSoxBanner05.png)
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 32,001 Likes: 1
We already are 15000+ posts
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We already are 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 32,001 Likes: 1 |
I just want to kick his teeth in.....not change his mind. Hope that clarifies things.
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Joined: May 2003
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Inglourious Basterd!!! 15000+ posts
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Inglourious Basterd!!! 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 28,009 |
So he wins, Petros. Because you give him the reaction his self-loathing mind wants. Ignore him. It's more fun. Great swerve in the movie! And ZSASZ!!! They introduced ZSASZ!!! If they never even use him, this was the moment the producers told me "This franchise will NEVER sink into camp!" You can't play ZSASZ for camp!!! 
Uschi said:I won't rape you, I'll just fuck you 'till it hurts and then not stop and you'll cry. MisterJLA: RACKS so hard, he called Jim Rome "Chris Everett." In Him, all porn is possible. He is far above mentions in so-called "blogs." RACK him, lest ye be lost! "I can't even brush my teeth without gagging!" - Tommy Tantillo: Wank & Cry, heckpuppy, and general laughingstock
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 32,001 Likes: 1
We already are 15000+ posts
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We already are 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 32,001 Likes: 1 |
Sometimes it's fun to kick teeth in too.....I'm good at it.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 19,633
I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
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I walk in eternity 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 19,633 |
I just ignore negative comments in the RKMBS. I've been through too much REAL shit in my life, so I guess the little shit doesn't bug me. Batman Begins was a GREAT movie. Period. The best Super hero movie in a couple years. PJ, just ignore the bullshit in here. Have some Dorritos and a beer.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 60
25+ posts
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You all need to express your anger better. I tried to ignore the Romans and you know how that turned out.
My Dad can beat up your Dad!
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"That boy has abs like Brian A. Ortiz." - Virtually everyone who's seen my midsection
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
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Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
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I seem to remember you coming away with a huge book deal.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Joined: May 2005
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25+ posts
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#1 Bestseller for over 2000 years now! Truth be told though, I got fucked out of the big bucks. I was young and naive and still a little woozy from the Cross when they got me to sign the rights away. Sure I got a big advance (Gold, wheat, farm animals) but Noah and Moses are making the big bucks they own the rights to the story. They said they would offer me fair representation.....never trust a Jewish Agent. Now I know how Paul Mcartney and John Foggerty feel.
My Dad can beat up your Dad!
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"That boy has abs like Brian A. Ortiz." - Virtually everyone who's seen my midsection
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Joined: May 2003
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1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
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1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
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Quote:
Pariah said:Exactly. A pep talk.
"You wanna succeed next time, then follow my advice."
You missed the point. It was Bruce realizing how corrupt things are setting about on worldwide journey to beat that corruption by understanding and undermining its power.
Bow ties are coool.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 32,001 Likes: 1
We already are 15000+ posts
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We already are 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 32,001 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
PJP said:
Quote:
PJP said:
Pariah,
You are an absolute fucking retard......absolute.
If you ever get the chance to travel in time, go back to the night you were conceived. Then go to the trailer park and make sure all that good stuff you're mising out on that ran down your mother's leg...... Sense of Humor, Good Taste, Intelligence, Heterosexuality and Common Sense......ends up going into the right place this time instead of as a puddle on the urine soaked mattress. After you accomplish this you may post in this thread again.
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