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klinton said:
Sure it can. God Himself even admitted to the presence of other gods...several times in the bible. These were distinctly different references than passages addressed to 'false gods' or mere 'idols'. He did however assert that He overshadowed them all.
Zuh? What passages were these?
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He might be talking about the Nephilim from the Grigori.
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The "Sons of God", who helped give birth to the "Nephilim", were the descendents of Seth and Enus. They were very close to the lord, so they were titled as such. They weren't gods or angels.
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That's one of the beliefs, yes
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There's no evidence supporting anymore than that.
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But there are more beliefs, and that's what religion is mainly based upon.
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I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that in regards of the context of that verse. I mean, there can only be one meaning for it. And there's evidence towards what that meaning is. It doesn't have to be ground on singularity alone--i.e. You have to note that verse and all the ones that surround it as well.
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Call me "old fashion," but I believe that there is only one God....
and his name is Xenu....
and he lives in the lake next to my house.
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No, I know that Seth and Enus were referred to as the "Sons of God". But some others believe that they were born of literal fallen angels. And as far as evidence goes, just as in a courtroom, it could be falsified. I don't know, (and really don't think) that you're one of the very very extreme Christians that believe the evidence of dinosaurs or evolution is just false evidence planted by the devil to make us doubtful of God's existence. I don't believe in all that but it does give the idea that any evidence supporting anything in the Bible could be fake. That's why I think evidence concerning religion shouldn't lead to conviction, and should stay based in faith and belief. I try to remain open minded about it and still hold onto my beliefs.
And FYI- Just so you know I really am an idiot when it comes to something like religion. I know very little in the way of facts from the Bible and most of what I know I just looked up on the internet five minutes ago. I base most of my beliefs on what little I do know and the life I've lived.
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Jay, I find it hard to believe that the world was smart enough back in the 40's to realize that having a Jewish Israel would keep the Arabs occupied while the world sucked out their oil.
Thing is, looking at prophecies, God promised Ishmael he would be a great nation (or have many nations from him, I can't quite remember off hand), and he would be very well off. Ishmael inherited all the of Mideastern lands with oil. Isreal has none.
Other prophecies, if I'm not mistaken, tell of how the land will cultivate for the Jews. Before the Jews returned in large numbers to the land, it was desert, as it had been since Rome salted the land.
Look at the former settlements in the Sinai. Where once life flourished, now there is nothing. Look at Gaza. The real test on the children of Ishmael starts now. Will the land of Gaza flourish for them as it has for the Jews who lived there?
America needs Israel, but not as much as Israel needs America. People can say what they want about the situation in Iraq. If America wanted to take over the Mideast, no ammount of terrorism could stop them. America has nukes, and I'm willing to bet that there are those on the Christian right willing to use them for the sake if a Christian nation's survival and wealth.
Is that a harsh statemen? Yes. But it could happen. America is a great nation, but ill leadership can lead any antion astray.
In any case, you talk about how the free world benifits from a Jewish Israel. If I'm not mistaken, you say that this economic benifit of the world is what allows the religion to survive. So, what you are really saying is that the rest of the world benifits economically from a Jewish state. Isn't there a prophecy about that as well?
As for Judaism fitting your econimic argument, the current government is not a Jewish government. The proper system laid out by the Torah is not in place at this time. Who is getting filthy rich by people following Judaism according to the laws of the Torah? Who is accumulating land as an individual? If your point is that we as a nation are benifiting, well, we are a nation, and as a nation, there are certain economics involved in any nation's survival. Our religion as a part of our nationality. So I still don't see how Judaism is an abuse of the masses.
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I don't want to argue with you about the specifics of the Torah. You mentioned that you were Orthodox, I'll wager a Reformed Jew would tell me a very different interpretation. I'm glad you find comfort and wisdom in your Spiritual Practice. What I have been saying is that religion has been used as an instrument of social control. The Patrician class uses the belief in a better after life to convince the Plebians to suffer in this life. It may not be the case with Judaism, but you aren't the people that need to be controlled by a peacefull means. As I mentioned, the power elite have other means of dealing with mouthy Jews.
The basis of my argument is class struggle as discussed by Karl Marx, who was a Jew, BTW. In fact the post was kind of a joke to see if anyone recognized it as Marxist. No one did. Maybe you'z guys should get out more. Most of it was lifted directly from the writings of Marx, verbatim. I just changed the nouns from 'Marx believed' to 'I believe'.
What do they teach you kids in school these days!
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do you realize that you spelled ridiculous wrong twice within a few words of each other?
Nope, nor do I care.
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You make the assumption that because something is complex beyond your understanding then it must be the work of God.
No, acctually, I don't assume that. I believe them to be the work of God, because the alternitive it to violate one of the most basic laws of logic. That being that from nothing, nothing comes. You assume (I don't really presume to know what you think, but since you're so vain as to presume what I think, I'll play along) that complex orginisms sprung from nothing. Also you assume that scientists don't believe in God and that the reason is because they've unraveled the mysteries of the universe.
Quote:
Now we know a bit more about the universe, and the people who really study science hardcore believe less and less in god.
In that case why is it then that the hard sciences, like chemistry and phisics, scientists tend to believe in God a great deal than those dealing primarily in conjecture. You seem to just accept what secularism teaches you with a sort of "blind faith" and that's not healthy 
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The world is moving towards secularism not because of amoral video games and movies, but because as a race humanity is beginning to demystify the universe through scientific study.
Do you know how many times that's been said throughout history. Considering that in the most advanced nation in the world today over 90% of people believe in God I'd hardly say that secularism is getting a greater foothold, so I'd say your premise is flawed (Not that that's ever stopped you before)
Quote:
Give us a thousand years and I doubt anyone will believe in god anymore.
Yea, that's what they said a thousand years ago. I can guarentee in a thousand years, you'll believe in God.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
klinton said:
Quote:
Chant said:
who created god?
God is eternal, the begining and the end.
everything has a beginning. one could argue that, if god(s) are real, since every culture developed their own pantheons then there are several gods who have had their day and then died.
Who says everthing has a beginning? God has no beginning nor was he created. He's self existant.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
klinton said:
Quote:
Chant said:
who created god?
God is eternal, the begining and the end.
everything has a beginning. one could argue that, if god(s) are real, since every culture developed their own pantheons then there are several gods who have had their day and then died.
Who says everthing has a beginning? God has no beginning nor was he created. He's self existant.
that's a very limited view of the universe. Just because you can't see or perceive the beginning of time and space doesn't mean it's infinite and eternal.
Many cultures believe(d) that we're just one incarnation of the universe that has been created and ended thousands of times over.
A two thousand year old book may not be the wisest and truest thing in the universe.
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Jay, it's been a while since I've read Marx. And I find no validity to his statements about religion. The fact he was a Jew means nothing to me. Being born a Jew and actually living as a Jew are two very different things.
While Marx is correct, as are you, in that religion has and continues to be abused, that is human nature. However, just because religion can be abused doesn't mean it isn't good for society. Going back to the econimic model, anyone can abuse any economic system. The Communists in Russia destroyed themselves through abuse of their system. America is not in very good shape because our government is abusing the system, with many politicians looking to get rich instead of looking to do their jobs.
My point in singling out one religion, is that I treated your post as a theory. To disprove a theory, (or am I thinking a hypothosis?) there only needs to be one specific example that does not follow the line of thought. It either works on the broad basis, or it doesn't.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
klinton said:
Quote:
Chant said:
who created god?
God is eternal, the begining and the end.
everything has a beginning. one could argue that, if god(s) are real, since every culture developed their own pantheons then there are several gods who have had their day and then died.
Who says everthing has a beginning? God has no beginning nor was he created. He's self existant.
if God's self existant, how can it then be so hard to believe that the vast and complex construct known as our universe could have sprung up by itself through billions and more billions of years?
you might say that's unlikely, but remember Einstein's law, or whatever you call it, matter can't be created, only changed to a different form through a process, such changes occur naturally in nature.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
klinton said:
Sure it can. God Himself even admitted to the presence of other gods...several times in the bible. These were distinctly different references than passages addressed to 'false gods' or mere 'idols'. He did however assert that He overshadowed them all.
Zuh? What passages were these?
Well, the one commandment says "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Not, "There are no other gods." It kinda implies there are other gods.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Zuh? What passages were these?
You're the 'religious expert'...you should be aware of these things more than I. You can enter the word 'gods' (lower case and plural, as most translations render it) into a Bible search engine and find the passages. This though will only give you the translations, not the different words used in the original manuscripts or thier connotations. That should be a matter you would be aware of yourself or willing to look into, being an expert on the divine and not a church fed puppet.
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Quote:
King Snarf said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
klinton said:
Sure it can. God Himself even admitted to the presence of other gods...several times in the bible. These were distinctly different references than passages addressed to 'false gods' or mere 'idols'. He did however assert that He overshadowed them all.
Zuh? What passages were these?
Well, the one commandment says "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Not, "There are no other gods." It kinda implies there are other gods.
Here's another way to look at it.
Back then, many people believed that other gods existed besides the one God (in some cases, instead of the One.) Time and again, the Israelites would drift back to idol worship. So the Bible might not be implying that these other gods actually existed - just acknowledging that people thought they existed, and so a commandment was put in place to acknowledge no other but the One.
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I think that's an accurate assesment of the passage, Methos. The Bible often mentions things like money, pleasure and even the devil himself as being 'gods'...but not in the same sense when God refers to 'other gods', a distinct reference to spiritual bieings. This confusion is a product of translation, rather than the spirit of of the initial texts.
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Quote:
King Snarf said:
Well, the one commandment says "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Not, "There are no other gods." It kinda implies there are other gods.
It implies no such thing. He's saying not to believe in any other gods but him. That doesn't mean to literally put any before Him because there's none there to put forward. For someone to even be considered "God", or a god if you wish, in the purest of definitions, that would imply someone actually worthy of worship. He makes it clear there's nothing else in existence that's actually worthy.
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klinton said:
You're the 'religious expert'...you should be aware of these things more than I.
Stop stalling and cough up the passages that reveal to us the existence of more than one God.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
King Snarf said:
Well, the one commandment says "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Not, "There are no other gods." It kinda implies there are other gods.
It implies no such thing. He's saying not to believe in any other gods but him. That doesn't mean to literally put any before Him because there's none there to put forward. For someone to even be considered "God", or a god if you wish, in the purest of definitions, that would imply someone actually worthy of worship. He makes it clear there's nothing else in existence that's actually worthy.
What's the weather like up your own ass?
The damn commadment doesn't have an asterix explaining that it means there are no gods to put before him but he felt like saying it in case people were wondering where gods should be put if new ones are discovered.
Stop being an idiot, Pariah. Just...stop...now.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Stop stalling and cough up the passages that reveal to us the existence of more than one God.
I'm not stalling...I have no intention of doing the legwork on this one. I told you how to start your own search for this, and if you gave a damn you'd look into it.
While you're on the topic of stalling, you still owe me at least one article to support your bullshit allegations a few months ago.
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Quote:
klinton said:
I think that's an accurate assesment of the passage, Methos. The Bible often mentions things like money, pleasure and even the devil himself as being 'gods'...but not in the same sense when God refers to 'other gods', a distinct reference to spiritual bieings. This confusion is a product of translation, rather than the spirit of of the initial texts.
The term "gods" is also used in a manner that could best be described as "sacastic". Where teh Scripture will refer to Pharoes or Greek gods as "gods", but isn't acctually verifying thier "godhood". It will say things such as you say there are "gods" or you believe that your "gods" etc... The scriptures say that "There is no god before me" this doesn't mean before as in prior it means in my sights or presence. Considering that the scriptures teach that God is omnipresent therefore that would rule out any other gods anywhere.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
The damn commadment doesn't have an asterix explaining that it means there are no gods to put before him but he felt like saying it in case people were wondering where gods should be put if new ones are discovered.
I don't recall the topic of conversation maintaining a skeptic outlook. If you wanna argue my point, you'll have to do so in context.
Quote:
klinton said:
I'm not stalling...I have no intention of doing the legwork on this one. I told you how to start your own search for this, and if you gave a damn you'd look into it.
Way to make a point. I mean, considering you're the one trying to prove to me that there's more than one "god". Just give me one verse. Just one.
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While you're on the topic of stalling, you still owe me at least one article to support your bullshit allegations a few months ago.
?
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Way to make a point. I mean, considering you're the one trying to prove to me that there's more than one "god"
I wasn't trying to prove anything, just making a comment. You asked what I was talking about. Even if I did all the reading and presented you with texts and the original wording....you'd still be all 'but this is this, cause the church told me so'.
I told you how to go about finding it, and if you really cared you'd look. I'm not here to prove or disprove anything for you Pariah. I learned long ago the impossiblitly of talking rationaly to you.
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Quote:
klinton said:
No, I won't point out the verse because you'll prove me wrong.
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klinton said:
I'm not here to prove or disprove anything for you Pariah. I learned long ago the impossiblitly of talking rationaly to you.
...you tell stories, we tell lies.
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Any of you guys ever read Friedrich Nietzsche ?
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Any of you guys ever read Friedrich Nietzsche ?
Yes, why?
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Any of you guys ever read Friedrich Nietzsche ?
Yes, why?
That's my homie. We used to drink 40's together...
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Quote:
theory9 said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Any of you guys ever read Friedrich Nietzsche ?
Yes, why?
That's my homie. We used to drink 40's together...
Was that before or after he went insane and thought that he was Jesus and his sister sold tickets to come see him as a raving lunatic?
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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...don't forget about her releasing phony manuscripts.
Yeah, it was about that time...
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Any of you guys ever read Friedrich Nietzsche ?
Yes, why?
Too, late to get into it tonight. The discussion above made me think of him and the Geneolgy of Morals, the Anti-Christ, etc....
But here's a banana for your monkey!
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I know where this is going and just so's you know: Nietzsche's analysis of Christianity and religion in general was patently flawed. Everything else was pretty good though.
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1500+ posts
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657 |
Quote:
Pariah said:
I know where this is going and just so's you know: Nietzsche's analysis of Christianity and religion in general was patently flawed. Everything else was pretty good though.
God is dead, Pariah. Why don't you join him? Jesus may love you but I think you're garbage wrapped in skin.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
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The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
It's not my fault your reference didn't get his facts straight before he made his anti-christian thesis.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,203
betrayal and collapse 5000+ posts
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betrayal and collapse 5000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,203 |
Quote:
Pariah said:
It's not my fault your reference didn't get his facts straight before he made his anti-christian thesis.
Facts have nothing to do with it. Not that you'll ever know...
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657
1500+ posts
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1500+ posts
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657 |
Quote:
Pariah said:
It's not my fault your reference didn't get his facts straight before he made his anti-christian thesis.
That was not about Friedrich Nietzsche, you idiot. It was my personal feelings toward you!
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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