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 The US military's rules of engagement are preventing us from winning the war on terrorism, a fact which, I'm sure, comes as no surprise to any of you, but one that is manifested by the image to your left. The image you see was taken by a Predator drone, somewhere over Afghanistan, and purports to show some 190 Taliban gathered in ranks at a funeral for one of their fallen comrades. Needless to say, Army officers controlling the Predator were delighted to find so many Taliban neatly arranged for maximum destruction at the hands of the drone's Hellfire missiles. Sadly, the Army's rules of engagement prevented the officers from doing their job, that is to say, destroying the enemy en mass, since it is a violation of the ROE to attack cemeteries. Clearly, the Army doesn't want to offend Islamic sensibilities by defiling a cemetary, though muslims themselves seem to have no such qualms about offending those same sensibilities, as they readily attack funerals, and even mosques.
The US must decide if it really wants to win this war, or are we simply marking time until the enemy has mustered the strength to attack us at home again. And as Commander in Chief, Bush has to tell the generals that this sort of "politically correct" combat ends now.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Clearly, the Army doesn't want to offend Islamic sensibilities by defiling a cemetary, though muslims themselves seem to have no such qualms about offending those same sensibilities, as they readily attack funerals, and even mosques.
A. that's racist. its frowned upon in all cultures to attack funerals and the like.
B. You want us to be as bad as the evil people we're trying to stop? Do you want cops to fire into crowds to get at an escaping perp?
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The US must decide if it really wants to win this war, or are we simply marking time until the enemy has mustered the strength to attack us at home again. And as Commander in Chief, Bush has to tell the generals that this sort of "politically correct" combat ends now.
Its not "politically correct" its ethical, its decency. Again I ask the question that if we sacrifice our principles to win security, is it worth it?
Or as Benjamin Franklin put it:
"Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither."
And the notion of liberty seems to be the foundation of America, and the notion of principles and humanity seem to be the foundation for true international peace.
Or to dumb it down and ramble on further:
If we act with the level of morality that the terrorists do, then the terrorists win.
Bow ties are coool.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Clearly, the Army doesn't want to offend Islamic sensibilities by defiling a cemetary, though muslims themselves seem to have no such qualms about offending those same sensibilities, as they readily attack funerals and mosques
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r3x29yz4a said:
that's racist. its frowned upon in all cultures to attack funerals and the like.
Islam isn't a race. People need to stop thinking of criticism of a religious doctrine as racism just because they picture its adherants as dark skinned.
I should have said "Muslim extremists" or "Muslim terrorists" or even "some Muslims". Sorry that I forget the one religion we can't criticize or generalize about is the "the Religion of Peace."TM.
Wow. Do you realize that that you're defending the Bush administration and I'm criticizing it?
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r3x29yz4a said:
If we act with the level of morality that the terrorists do, then the terrorists win.
I completely agree with the above and want to flesh it out a litte. What our adminstration fails to realize, despite their own masterful use of PR and spin, is that the "War of Terror" is a war of ideas not a conventional war.
WE CANNOT KILL OUR WAY OUT OF IT! Every terrorist who dies becomes a martyr for the cause. Bombing that funeral might have been a major setback for the Taliban, but I guarantee it would be a temporary one. That level of an atrocity would have spawned a thousand more jihadis overnight. Furthermore, it would validate the terrorists perception of the US.
But most importantly it would damn us spiritually. What good is peace and security if we must sell our soul to purchase it? Or to quote the Bible, "What does it profit a man to gain the whole world if he looses his soul?"
Honestly, I don't lose one hour of fucking sleep worrying about another terrorist attack and I live ten miles away from the Western White House. Granted, my heart goes out to people who lost loved ones five years ago and I don't want anyone else to endure the heartache of loosing loved ones needlessly due to violence and hate (whether they are fellow Texans, New Yorkers, Iraqi, etc.).
But personally, if I die in a terrorist attack tomorrow because my country chose to do the honest, noble, and moral thing, then GOD BLESS AMERICA!
Last edited by Randal_Flagg; 2006-09-14 4:45 PM.
I am a man with needs. Rack JLA!!!
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Wow. Do you realize that that you're defending the Bush administration and I'm criticizing it?
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Islam isn't a race. People need to stop thinking of criticism of a religious doctrine as racism just because they picture its adherants as dark skinned.
I should have said "Muslim extremists" or "Muslim terrorists" or even "some Muslims". Sorry that I forget the one religion we can't criticize or generalize about is the "the Religion of Peace."TM.
wow, you're angry.
I actually read an article in the paper about a week back (oddly enough my back was sore at the time) about how Islam is generally treated as a race post-9/11.
And it is racist or prejudice of you to say that. Or its just plain nasty.
Attacking funerals is just low on so many levels. I can't think of anyone doing it, and anyone who has done it isn't the type of country we want to be.
You're trying to turn this away from morality into an argument of victory at any cost. But the suposed concepts we say we're fighting for are much for fragile that physical objects or land.
If we violate liberty and inalienable human rights in order to preserve liberty and inalienable human rights, then the terrorists have won by making us just as bad.
And I should know about difficult battles. I mean, arguing ethics and morality with a lawyer....a Republican lawyer at that.
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Wow. Do you realize that that you're defending the Bush administration and I'm criticizing it?
Well I agree with this move. You like to paint things along party lines, but I (and many people of liberal or conservative leanings) go with what i think is right.
Bow ties are coool.
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the G-man said:
Wow. Do you realize that that you're defending the Bush administration and I'm criticizing it?
Damn. That means it's the of life as we know it. Shit, I still haven't seen the Grand Canyon...gobdamnit. Way to screw it up for the rest of us, you fucktards.
We all wear a green carnation.
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We already are 15000+ posts
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Jim Jackson said:
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the G-man said:
Wow. Do you realize that that you're defending the Bush administration and I'm criticizing it?
Damn. That means it's the of life as we know it. Shit, I still haven't seen the Grand Canyon...gobdamnit. Way to screw it up for the rest of us, you fucktards.
what do you mean you didn't see the Grand Canyon? Princess Elsia posted pics, don't you remember?
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Quote:
Randal_Flagg said:
I completely agree with the above and want to flesh it out a litte. What our adminstration fails to realize, despite their own masterful use of PR and spin, is that the "War of Terror" is a war of ideas not a conventional war.
That is so stupid.
Obviously you and r3x have never heard the phrase, "Intimidate those who intimidate others." When we start suicide bombing buildings with mass amounts of civilians *cough*9/11*cough* then I'll start listening to your knee-jerk Nietzschien lectures. Right now, however, we had the ability to take out 190 enemy officers. Killing them would mean not giving them the chance to kill more Americans or even American allies in the middle east.
Neither of you know the definition of war or even understand the mechanics of the morality it follows. So stop trying to tell everyone that you do with ad hominem like, "If we act with the level of morality that the terrorists do, then the terrorists win." What if we weren't fighting terrorists? What if this wasn't good vs. evil and rather a legitimate disagreement of principles in which there was no other choice but to fight (see also: Civil War)? Would you then be saying, 'Don't stoop to the lows of our enemies'?
The satire here is how much r3x is talking out both ends; saying that we should embrace our Muslim brothers whilst at the same time not become like them.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Randal_Flagg said:
I completely agree with the above and want to flesh it out a litte. What our adminstration fails to realize, despite their own masterful use of PR and spin, is that the "War of Terror" is a war of ideas not a conventional war.
That is so stupid.
no, its not. Terrorist groups are essentially a few crazy leaders followed by people who truly believe that this is the only way.
We must sell peace and democracy through building bridges and settling feuds.
The dictators can't thrive if their people truly want change. Right now, America is just a big bad coming in and blowing up people. That encourages terrorism as every person we kill has a family member looking for guidance and understanding.
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Obviously you and r3x have never heard the phrase, "Intimidate those who intimidate others."
Obviously you never heard of any of the many many phrases from Jesus about peace and love. No, you go for vengeance over justice.
This is a fragile time. Anything of value to America's ideals must be preserved. That's how we win, not by poisoning our national soul with betrayed morality.
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When we start suicide bombing buildings with mass amounts of civilians *cough*9/11*cough* then I'll start listening to your knee-jerk Nietzschien lectures. Right now, however, we had the ability to take out 190 enemy officers. Killing them would mean not giving them the chance to kill more Americans or even American allies in the middle east.
If it was a Catholic funeral with IRA members?
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Neither of you know the definition of war or even understand the mechanics of the morality it follows. So stop trying to tell everyone that you do with ad hominem like, "If we act with the level of morality that the terrorists do, then the terrorists win." What if we weren't fighting terrorists? What if this wasn't good vs. evil and rather a legitimate disagreement of principles in which there was no other choice but to fight (see also: Civil War)? Would you then be saying, 'Don't stoop to the lows of our enemies'?
I would only side with the group that believes in morality. I'd rather kill myself then become a monster to stop monsters. America has a fucked up history with lots of blood. The only good thing, the thing that truly strengthens our roots, is the founding father's ideals of a better world and of a free world with people being able to govern themselves. And thankfully this fucked up species that has poisoned and raped the world has enough decency in it to leave a glimmer of hope for a better tomorrow.
Those ideals, those principles, those ethics, those morals, that simple idea that right doesn't do wrong to beat wrong is the only thing that makes this world worth living.
So yeah if we have to miss an opportunity because we won't bomb a funeral. I have no problem.
And FYI, the Taliban only became "evil" in our eyes after they rejected an oil pipeline plan. And the Taliban kept Opium out of Afghanistan, which is now rapant. Until we can offer a solid solution, we have no right to talk.
Get out of mommy's basement, Maxwell. Don't just read some sociological book on the history of war. Try meeting people, seeing people, living in the world, and understanding people.
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The satire here is how much r3x is talking out both ends; saying that we should embrace our Muslim brothers whilst at the same time not become like them.
Muslim is not the same as terrorist. As much as David Koresh is not the same as all christians.
Bow ties are coool.
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Randal_Flagg said:
WE CANNOT KILL OUR WAY OUT OF IT! Every terrorist who dies becomes a martyr for the cause.
That's why I fully support leaving them alive and working them over. 
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
I would only side with the group that believes in morality. I'd rather kill myself then become a monster to stop monsters. America has a fucked up history with lots of blood. The only good thing, the thing that truly strengthens our roots, is the founding father's ideals of a better world and of a free world with people being able to govern themselves. And thankfully this fucked up species that has poisoned and raped the world has enough decency in it to leave a glimmer of hope for a better tomorrow.
Those ideals, those principles, those ethics, those morals, that simple idea that right doesn't do wrong to beat wrong is the only thing that makes this world worth living.
So yeah if we have to miss an opportunity because we won't bomb a funeral. I have no problem.
And FYI, the Taliban only became "evil" in our eyes after they rejected an oil pipeline plan. And the Taliban kept Opium out of Afghanistan, which is now rapant. Until we can offer a solid solution, we have no right to talk.
Get out of mommy's basement, Maxwell. Don't just read some sociological book on the history of war. Try meeting people, seeing people, living in the world, and understanding people.
Fuck yes. Best post I've ever read from you.  
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Especially that part about killing himself. 
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r3x, I realize that you think if you pad your posts enough, you'll just scare off any trace of argument, but you have to understand that your childish ad hominem isn't going to make your points.
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r3x29yz4a said:
no, its not. Terrorist groups are essentially a few crazy leaders followed by people who truly believe that this is the only way.
We must sell peace and democracy through building bridges and settling feuds.
It's too bad you weren't around in the 70s to try and sell that to the Ayatollah. I'm sure he and they would have listened to you.
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The dictators can't thrive if their people truly want change. Right now, America is just a big bad coming in and blowing up people. That encourages terrorism as every person we kill has a family member looking for guidance and understanding.
I'm sorry if you feel that retaliation is a form of a "Big Bad America." I guess we can't all be pacifists waiting for our enemies to destroy us while we stand in front of the firing range preaching about peace and anti-war while the terrorists cock their AKs.
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Obviously you never heard of any of the many many phrases from Jesus about peace and love. No, you go for vengeance over justice.
"I come not as a facilitator of peace. But as a sword."
We've been over this before--Many times. In which case, it's better if you simply stick to hating Christianity rather than trying to use it to your advantage since it makes you look like such a fool.
God said turn the other cheek. But He also said to lay down your life for your friends. If you're the only one being wronged, then don't bother with vengeance, but if someone else is in danger, you would logically step in. In which case, our government is stepping in to keep us from harm by attacking those who would plot against us. Your childish buffoonery about giving everyone a flower and calling it a day would kill us.
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This is a fragile time. Anything of value to America's ideals must be preserved. That's how we win, not by poisoning our national soul with betrayed morality.
You believe in a soul? HA!
So, for the record, your definition of "winning" would be us not doing what it took to ensure the physical safety of Americans if the alternative meant to torture someone or blow up a crowd of enemy soldiers? Even if our entire country was wiped off the face of planet by a bomb that's location remained hidden because we chose to follow your arrogant and immature ideals of "morality" and not do what it took to stop it, you'd still consider a victory?
You can keep your morality. I'm more practical. and please don't confuse America's traditional ideals with your own. Your implication that they're the same is utter BS.
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If it was a Catholic funeral with IRA members?
What's your question? All you did was type a sentence fragment and then put a question mark at the end of it.
If you're asking me if I would bomb an IRA funeral, then the answer would be yes--Granted that they were my enemies at the time.
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I would only side with the group that believes in morality. I'd rather kill myself then become a monster to stop monsters. America has a fucked up history with lots of blood. The only good thing, the thing that truly strengthens our roots, is the founding father's ideals of a better world and of a free world with people being able to govern themselves. And thankfully this fucked up species that has poisoned and raped the world has enough decency in it to leave a glimmer of hope for a better tomorrow.
Those ideals, those principles, those ethics, those morals, that simple idea that right doesn't do wrong to beat wrong is the only thing that makes this world worth living.
So yeah if we have to miss an opportunity because we won't bomb a funeral. I have no problem.
And FYI, the Taliban only became "evil" in our eyes after they rejected an oil pipeline plan. And the Taliban kept Opium out of Afghanistan, which is now rapant. Until we can offer a solid solution, we have no right to talk.
Get out of mommy's basement, Maxwell. Don't just read some sociological book on the history of war. Try meeting people, seeing people, living in the world, and understanding people.
..............What the motherfuck.........
Not only do you just pad your post with more gibberish about ideals, whilst not actually bothering to explain the mechanics of the morality of which you reference, but then you also make light of a terrorist organization--The one that sheltered Osama Bin Laden for fuck's sake!
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Muslim is not the same as terrorist. As much as David Koresh is not the same as all christians.
On the contrary, you tell us to embrace those particular terrorists because they're Muslims. Lets not forget about all of your self-indulgent rants about how Muslims are much more provocative and fascinating than other religions.
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
Fuck yes. Best post I've ever read from you.
Please keep the circle-jerks in South Carolina Pro.
Thanks.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
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Prometheus said:
Fuck yes. Best post I've ever read from you.
Please keep the circle-jerks in South Carolina Pro.
Thanks.
Eat me, fag. I've seen more coherent intelligence on bathroom stalls, than the Nazi-propaganda you promote around here. BTW, get off your God-kick. No one's buying the hypocritical facade... 
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Quote:
Pariah said:
r3x, I realize that you think if you pad your posts enough, you'll just scare off any trace of argument, but you have to understand that your childish ad hominem isn't going to make your points.
padding?
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r3x said:
The dictators can't thrive if their people truly want change. Right now, America is just a big bad coming in and blowing up people. That encourages terrorism as every person we kill has a family member looking for guidance and understanding.
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I'm sorry if you feel that retaliation is a form of a "Big Bad America." I guess we can't all be pacifists waiting for our enemies to destroy us while we stand in front of the firing range preaching about peace and anti-war while the terrorists cock their AKs.
Pariah, in your blind hatred of me you failed to see the point I was making. The image we are giving to the Iraqis in particular, and the middle east in general, is that of the big bad. Had we focused on establishing basic utilities and order in the crucial period following the invasion, we would be seen in a positive light as coming in and making things better. But now the average Iraqi citizen only knows they have less power and water than under Saddam, and the constant threat of warfare in their streets.
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r3x said:
Obviously you never heard of any of the many many phrases from Jesus about peace and love. No, you go for vengeance over justice.
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"I come not as a facilitator of peace. But as a sword."
We've been over this before--Many times. In which case, it's better if you simply stick to hating Christianity rather than trying to use it to your advantage since it makes you look like such a fool.
Ive known a lot of asshole christians and a lot of decent christians. And the common point that seems to divide them is what part of their faith they focus on. The decent people are the ones who focus on the peaceful aspects of the religion, because then their life is about trying to find the good in their fellow man. The assholes are the ones who like the vengeance part.
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God said turn the other cheek. But He also said to lay down your life for your friends. If you're the only one being wronged, then don't bother with vengeance, but if someone else is in danger, you would logically step in. In which case, our government is stepping in to keep us from harm by attacking those who would plot against us. Your childish buffoonery about giving everyone a flower and calling it a day would kill us.
I've been consistent in my advocacy of diplomacy or, failing that, efficient work. As stated above, we should have maintained order and basic utilities in Iraq immediately after the invasion. And we should work on both countries' infrastructures. Terrorist recruitment breeds where people lose innocent family to foreign bombs and have to worry about their next meal.
In other words, we created the chaos in Iraq by allowing it to become chaotic.
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r3x said:
This is a fragile time. Anything of value to America's ideals must be preserved. That's how we win, not by poisoning our national soul with betrayed morality.
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You believe in a soul? HA!
Why would that be funny? You know, you come off as such an angry person. The concept of the soul predates christianity. Its more of a philosophical concept than a religious one.
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So, for the record, your definition of "winning" would be us not doing what it took to ensure the physical safety of Americans if the alternative meant to torture someone or blow up a crowd of enemy soldiers? Even if our entire country was wiped off the face of planet by a bomb that's location remained hidden because we chose to follow your arrogant and immature ideals of "morality" and not do what it took to stop it, you'd still consider a victory?
Every time we torture, we only hurt ourselves. Every middle eastern country we invade, we only hurt ourselves. People like bin Laden have been saying for years the US wants to come in and conquer the middle east and kill muslims. Now, we've given him Iraq and CIA blacksites for him to hold up as examples.
There are legal means, sensible means, and morals means to protect people.
In other words, you can be safe by shooting at every stranger who gets within 50 of your house, or you can buy a fucking deadbolt.
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You can keep your morality. I'm more practical. and please don't confuse America's traditional ideals with your own. Your implication that they're the same is utter BS.
I sincerly doubt your religious convictions. I recall a thread where you boasted religion as the foundation of morality in the world, now you tell me to "keep my morality?"
Being practical would be my way over yours. As stated, your way only increases terrorist recruitment levels and causes more death and pain in the world. My way would prevent people from joining such radical groups by eliminating their reason to join. My way is to help the people and improve the standard of living in the world, and the spirit of the international community. Because, like it or not, we are a global community. You don't like it, then get off the fucking internet and stay in your mom's basement.
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r3x said:
If it was a Catholic funeral with IRA members?
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What's your question? All you did was type a sentence fragment and then put a question mark at the end of it.
Unless you read what that question was in response to. And don't be such a grammar cunt. this is not my harvard dissertation, its fucking message board.
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If you're asking me if I would bomb an IRA funeral, then the answer would be yes--Granted that they were my enemies at the time.
you're a sick, sad boy, Max. I'm right this moment remembering how futile it is to even talk to you. You spew hate and I think that's sad.
In fact i imagine you to be someone who is only tough behind the online cloak. in real life i bet you're a timid little whiner who cowers to everyone he meets and then rights poems in bed about killing everyone.
but i'm sure they're grammatically accurate.
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r3x said:
I would only side with the group that believes in morality. I'd rather kill myself then become a monster to stop monsters. America has a fucked up history with lots of blood. The only good thing, the thing that truly strengthens our roots, is the founding father's ideals of a better world and of a free world with people being able to govern themselves. And thankfully this fucked up species that has poisoned and raped the world has enough decency in it to leave a glimmer of hope for a better tomorrow.
Those ideals, those principles, those ethics, those morals, that simple idea that right doesn't do wrong to beat wrong is the only thing that makes this world worth living.
So yeah if we have to miss an opportunity because we won't bomb a funeral. I have no problem.
And FYI, the Taliban only became "evil" in our eyes after they rejected an oil pipeline plan. And the Taliban kept Opium out of Afghanistan, which is now rapant. Until we can offer a solid solution, we have no right to talk.
Get out of mommy's basement, Maxwell. Don't just read some sociological book on the history of war. Try meeting people, seeing people, living in the world, and understanding people.
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..............What the motherfuck.........
odd that you said motherfuck and not fuck. some issue you'd like to discuss? of course, that's more of a deep thought topic and i'd ask you to discuss it there.
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Not only do you just pad your post with more gibberish about ideals, whilst not actually bothering to explain the mechanics of the morality of which you reference, but then you also make light of a terrorist organization--The one that sheltered Osama Bin Laden for fuck's sake!
First of all, I won't defend my morals or beliefs to someone who is devoid of either. Not anymore at least.
As for the Taliban. Well, we were pretty chummy with them up until the oil pipeline deal fell through. That's not making light, that's pointing out a truth.
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r3x said:
Muslim is not the same as terrorist. As much as David Koresh is not the same as all christians.
On the contrary, you tell us to embrace those particular terrorists because they're Muslims. Lets not forget about all of your self-indulgent rants about how Muslims are much more provocative and fascinating than other religions.
Embrace? Provacotive?
Wow, you'll have to link me. Because all I've ever felt is that you can't blame the religion for the murderous actions of a minority.
I never said to embrace the terrorists, but to mend bad relations with the muslim world. that stops future terrorists.
But you only see blood and vengeance and not the fact that there are innocents in the middle east being killed in the crossfire. Right now i believe its about ten times the ammount of dead civilians as 9/11. they deserve empathy, they have committed no crime. in the "war on terror" we should concern ourselves with all the innocent civilian victims, not just the americans.
to paraphrase kennedy "we all live together, or we all die together."
of course, i still have the feeling this is a waste of fucking time.
Bow ties are coool.
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Fair Play! 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 15,797 Likes: 40 |
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:...
of course, i still have the feeling this is a waste of fucking time.
Maybe with certain parties involved yes but their not the only ones reading your posts.
Fair play!
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
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OP
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,951 Likes: 6 |
Quote:
Prometheus said:
Eat me, fag. I've seen more coherent intelligence on bathroom stalls, than the Nazi-propaganda you promote around here. BTW, get off your God-kick. No one's buying the hypocritical facade...
You seem extra tense these days Promod. Married life a little more stressful than you thought?
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 33,385 Likes: 1
Regenerated 15000+ posts
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Regenerated 15000+ posts
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 33,385 Likes: 1 |
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 33,385 Likes: 1
Regenerated 15000+ posts
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Regenerated 15000+ posts
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 33,385 Likes: 1 |
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 33,385 Likes: 1
Regenerated 15000+ posts
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Regenerated 15000+ posts
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 33,385 Likes: 1 |
Oh, and, btw...my marriage pretty much rocks, so far. Please don't ever even conceive of using it, or my personal life, in any form of an insult. I would not take that as a joke...
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 14,203
1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
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1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 14,203 |
Quote:
Prometheus said:
Oh, and, btw...my marriage pretty much rocks, so far. Please don't ever even conceive of using it, or my personal life, in any form of an insult. I would not take that as a joke...
using someone's personal life in an argument is wrong. but forgive g-man. he's having trouble because his wife found his "workout room," which is just a box of muscle magazines under the bed.
Bow ties are coool.
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