Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 7 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
10000+ posts
Offline
10000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
 Originally Posted By: Joe Mama
He's 28, so he's in or near is prime, and he's definitely got ace stuff, so that takes some pressure off Wang and Joba. He's got great stats, but not in the postseason. What would concern me, if I was a Yankees fan, is that he's heavy (hell, he weighs more than I do!), and there's a lot of wear on that arm - a criticism voiced when the Tigers traded for Dontrelle Willis, and we all saw last season what happened there. Also, Sabathia voiced a lack of desire to play in New York (always a bad sign). I see this deal working out for the Yankees in the first three years before really starting to bite them in the arse in year four. Also, since they're also giving up their first-round draft pick, I guess Cashman's plan to develop players in-house is temporarily on hold...


A few notes:

1.The "not great" postseason stats are almost certainly attributable to the enormous workload he shouldered during the regular season. His usually superb command disappeared in the playoffs; a tell-tale sign of a tired pitcher. The role he played in Milwaukee's stretch run doesn't suggest that he's one to cave under pressure.

2.Dontrelle Willis is not really a good comparison, in my view. The larger concerns about him was that he relied heavily on deception as opposed to pure stuff, and that he had poor throwing mechanics(significant in that it affected his control and also made him more susceptible to injury, independent of workload).

3.From what I read, Sabathia wasn't unenthusiastic about New York, just interested in playing in California, his home state. Personally, I think the "homeward bound" assumption about free agents has always been sort of a sports journalist kneejerk comment(just to create hot stove league banter), or in the case of the current Teixeira-Baltimore negotiations, a bargaining ploy used by agents to get the big market teams to offer that extra chunk of cash.

4.All the above being said, I agree that this move comes with some enormous risks. A note in the the times had Sabathia's listed weight as 311 pounds. It's pretty hard to forecast what a guy's physical condition is going to be seven years down the road when he's over 300 pounds at 28. In the short term, the Yankees appear to have their ace, and at $14 million next year he'll be a bargain, but something tells me that in 2012, the Yankees are going to be right back where they were at the start of this season: old, injured, and overpaid. So they better hope they win a World Series in the meantime.


MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Offline
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
 Originally Posted By: Animalman
.From what I read, Sabathia wasn't unenthusiastic about New York, just interested in playing in California, his home state. Personally, I think the "homeward bound" assumption about free agents has always been sort of a sports journalist kneejerk comment(just to create hot stove league banter), or in the case of the current Teixeira-Baltimore negotiations, a bargaining ploy used by agents to get the big market teams to offer that extra chunk of cash.



I think it goes both ways, Ken Griffey Jr. could have made significantly more towards A-Rod money when he came to the Reds from Seattle but took less and a big chunk deferred. There are a lot of free agents that resign for a hometown discount as well, but I agree if they don't resign before their contract is up and hit the open market, the hometown thing is a bargaining tool.

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,820
Rob Offline
cobra kai
15000+ posts
Offline
cobra kai
15000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,820
teixiera on the yanks


giant picture
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Offline
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
He's a really good player but I think he was overpaid for, even the other reported offers that the Sox, Angels, and Nats were offering. To me he is getting money in the great player range which I just don't see.

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,820
Rob Offline
cobra kai
15000+ posts
Offline
cobra kai
15000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,820
i'll agree it's over paying, but notmuch isn't lately. i think the nats reportedly offered 200 mil.

he's a great fit for the yanks, first base, switch hitting before or after arod, and like sabbathia i like that it's a long term deal with a relatively young player. they're atleast setting up the possibility of consistency


giant picture
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Offline
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
I think the NAts were overpaying as well(i know overpaying is relative), I just think on his behalf he bacame a free agent at a lucky time, when there really wasnt any premiere position players available, any other year and he wouldnt have got that.


that being said, the Yankees will likely have a lower overall payroll than they did last year and he is a upgrade from an aging Giambi.

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,820
Rob Offline
cobra kai
15000+ posts
Offline
cobra kai
15000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,820
 Originally Posted By: BASAMS The Plumber
I think the NAts were overpaying as well(i know overpaying is relative), I just think on his behalf he bacame a free agent at a lucky time, when there really wasnt any premiere position players available, any other year and he wouldnt have got that.


next year's free agent market also looks especially weak, with holliday being amongst the only nice pickups. and the yankees needed a first basemen much more than a 7th outfielder.

 Originally Posted By: BASAMS The Plumber
that being said, the Yankees will likely have a lower overall payroll than they did last year and he is a upgrade from an aging Giambi.


definitely a bit time upgrade over giambi. comparable hitting stats to jason's heyday, plus defense, position regularity, and another 10 or so years left in his career.

i do think it was overpaid, but i also think he's a perfect fit for the yanks, so it could be "worth" the money.


giant picture
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,820
Rob Offline
cobra kai
15000+ posts
Offline
cobra kai
15000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,820

Possible Yankees Opening Day lineup
  • 1. Johnny Damon, LF
    2. Derek Jeter, SS
    3. Alex Rodriguez, 3B
    4. Mark Teixeira, 1B
    5. Jorge Posada, C
    6. Hideki Matsui, DH
    7. Xavier Nady, RF
    8. Robinson Cano, 2B
    9. Brett Gardner, CF


Possible Yankees starting rotation
  • 1. CC Sabathia, LHP
    2. A.J. Burnett, RHP
    3. Chien-Ming Wang, RHP
    4. Joba Chamberlain, RHP
    5. Phil Hughes, RHP


giant picture
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
10000+ posts
Offline
10000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
Teixeira is great.

His .328 EqA would have been second-best in the American League(behind Milton Bradley, ahead of the great Alex Rodriguez) if he'd played in that league all year, and he posted a .321 EqA the year before. His 10.8 WARP3, which is widely considered the best full-skill statistical assessment metric, would have made him the second best position player in the AL(behind the guy who should have Pedroia's award, Joe Mauer). 10 win players are prime MVP candidates, and Teixeira would have posted back to back 10 win seasons if he hadn't missed two weeks in '07.

A .300/.400/.500 hitter with gold glove defense annually is a top player, without question. Teixeira might not have one specific attribute that makes him better than his peers, but he has as wide a breadth of skills as anyone in baseball. He does virtually everything well, and possesses every major skill except elite speed. He just had the misfortune of having not played on a playoff team until the last two months of this past season, so he didn't receive the attention your classically overrated RBI guys(the Morneaus and Howards of the world) get, despite being better.

I'd say, along with A-Rod, Mauer, and Sizemore, Teixeira is one of the four or five best position players in the AL, and there's no reason to expect him to stop being one suddenly, given his baseball pedigree of being one of the most heralded college players of all time and a former consensus top minor league prospect. Unlike Sabathia, he's in good shape, and is one of the hardest workers in baseball. I think a good comparison for this contract is the one given to Todd Helton in 2001. Even if Teixeira's power declines(as Helton's did) by the time his contract nears its conclusion, his plate discipline and quality defense will make him valuable, and Teixeira has the added bonus of being a switch hitter.


MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 34,236
Likes: 15
"Hey this is PCG342's bro..."
15000+ posts
Offline
"Hey this is PCG342's bro..."
15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 34,236
Likes: 15
They'll buy that championship yet!


"Are you eating it...or is it eating you?"

[center][Linked Image from i13.photobucket.com] [/center]

[center][Linked Image from i13.photobucket.com][/center]
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
10000+ posts
Offline
10000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
And for the obligatory JLA complaint, the Transaction Oracle weighs in on the contract and echos my general feelings about the Yankees and their place in sports finance:

 Quote:
I'm not a Yankees fan and I can't envision a scenario in which I'd root for the team.

However, the strongest advocates of a salary cap, the ones ranting about salaries in light of the economy, are full of hot air. And something else, but the site nanny won't let me say it.

MLB's revenues have been exploding since 2003 and player salaries have simply not matched this increase in revenues. In 2003, players in baseball made 63% of league revenues. In 2008, that number appears to be 52% of league revenues, or less than any of the other major professional leagues in the US, which all have salary caps.

For decades, wonks, wags, and wigs have told us that player salaries drive upward ticket prices and that arguments about supply and demand are theoretical constructs for an imaginary world. But in the real world, during a time in which the player's slice of the pie has dropped tremendously (a $400 million loss of the pie in 2008 alone, relative to 2003), ticket prices have continued to gone up unabated. Just as expected, savings from limiting the salaries of those mean old players have been filtered directly into the pockets of owners. Owners who cry poverty and get welfare stadiums. Republicans talked about welfare queens 15 years ago, but it would take thousands of so-called queens driving around in taxpayer Cadillacs to match some of the true members of that category. Take Jeff Loria, who pockets revenue-sharing money and then turns around and gets an additional honeypot in the form an apparently imminent fancy-new stadium. If MLB owners were in charge of the TARP funds, the $700 billion would already be completely gone and the sycophantic media, ever-hungry for prestige, quotes, and free pastrami on rye, would blame it on pay raises for local janitorial staff.

Now, to the Yankees. I've been stalling on saying nice things about the team, but I guess I've got to bite the bullet and get it over with. The Yankees have a mindset that is good for baseball and the US would be better off if more companies possessed the Yankee mindset.

The Yankees do spend more money than other teams in MLB, but the differences would be less drastic if the payrolls of many teams had been rising up to the waves of new cash that have entered baseball in recent years. Going by the NFL formula, very generous considering the MLBPA is far more powerful an entity than any other union in sports, the payroll floor for 2009 would almost certainly be in the $100 million range. 58% of league revenue, as the players in NFL get, would be, in baseball, an average team payroll of a hair under $120 million. It's pretty clear that while the Yankees are outspending everyone comfortably, the rest of baseball has just as much to do with the payroll disparity as the Yankees do.

Now, what about the Yankee mindset? The Steinbrenners aren't anywhere near as rich or as liquid as some other owners in baseball such as Carl Pohlad of the Twins. The difference is that the Steinbrenners have always invested in their team, always striven to put the best product possible out on the field. The Yankees have certainly made some terrible trades, especially when King George was hands-on the most, but they were done with the motive of making the team better. Yes, the Yankees got a huge, undeserved payday from the locals for their stadium, like most teams in baseball did, but it's a mitigating factor that they're actually plowing those funds back into the on-field product. And the team never threatened to not compete until they got their sweet check. Perhaps a small difference, but I see it as a good bit more ethical than Kevin McClatchy demanding taxpayer moneys to help the Pirates compete and then turn around and use all the money to fund his failing media empire.

Now, what about Mark Teixeira? The benefits of Teixeira are pretty obvious, he's a fine defensive 1B who hits very well and should be a relatively safe bet for the Yankees over the course of his contract. He's not A-Rod or peak Manny, but Teixeira's a very good player and while he may only be a bit above-average by his mid-30s, $22.5 million likely won't be exorbitant for an average player on the FA market in 2016.

Arte Moreno may get to have the personal satisfaction of feeling like the injured party, but this is what Tex was going to make when the Angels acquired him and if they weren't going to play serious ball, the Angels should never have done the Kotchman trade. Perhaps they'll change the rules of baseball during the season and allow moral victories to win games, minimizing the damage that the team offense, 10th in the AL in runs with a huge couple of months of Teixeira thrown in, can do.


MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 34,236
Likes: 15
"Hey this is PCG342's bro..."
15000+ posts
Offline
"Hey this is PCG342's bro..."
15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 34,236
Likes: 15
I didn't read any of that!

RACK me!


"Are you eating it...or is it eating you?"

[center][Linked Image from i13.photobucket.com] [/center]

[center][Linked Image from i13.photobucket.com][/center]
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,820
Rob Offline
cobra kai
15000+ posts
Offline
cobra kai
15000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,820
 Originally Posted By: Animalman
And for the obligatory JLA complaint, the Transaction Oracle weighs in on the contract and echos my general feelings about the Yankees and their place in sports finance


heh


giant picture
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 34,236
Likes: 15
"Hey this is PCG342's bro..."
15000+ posts
Offline
"Hey this is PCG342's bro..."
15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 34,236
Likes: 15
Animalman User 10000+ posts 12/24/08 02:40 PM Reading a post
Forum: Sports and Wrestling
Thread: How 'bout them Yankees- 2008 (and no other team matters!)

Animalman will agree with me soon. He's too smart for Rob's tricks.


"Are you eating it...or is it eating you?"

[center][Linked Image from i13.photobucket.com] [/center]

[center][Linked Image from i13.photobucket.com][/center]
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 34,236
Likes: 15
"Hey this is PCG342's bro..."
15000+ posts
Offline
"Hey this is PCG342's bro..."
15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 34,236
Likes: 15
 Originally Posted By: Animalman


Yes, the Yankees got a huge, undeserved payday from the locals for their stadium


I thought the city of New York was getting the steal of a lifetime by getting fleeced like that...?


"Are you eating it...or is it eating you?"

[center][Linked Image from i13.photobucket.com] [/center]

[center][Linked Image from i13.photobucket.com][/center]
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,820
Rob Offline
cobra kai
15000+ posts
Offline
cobra kai
15000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,820
 Originally Posted By: Rob Kamphausen

Possible Yankees starting rotation
  • 1. CC Sabathia, LHP
    2. A.J. Burnett, RHP
    3. Chien-Ming Wang, RHP
    4. Joba Chamberlain, RHP
    5. Phil Hughes, RHP


Yankees sign CMW to one-year deal
By Anthony DiComo


  • Overlooked throughout this offseason of spending has been Chien-Ming Wang, a starting pitcher who has proven that when he is healthy, he can be every bit the ace that CC Sabathia or A.J. Burnett is.

    The Yankees are quite aware of that fact, and so they wasted little time in signing Wang to a one-year, $5 million contract on Monday, thus avoiding arbitration.

    Wang, 28, was 8-2 with a 4.07 ERA in 15 starts for the Yankees last season before spending the rest of the year on the disabled list with a sprain of the Lisfranc ligament in his right foot and a partial tear of a tendon in the same foot. He remained in a cast until the end of July, but spent the rest of the season rehabilitating and never made it as far as a Minor League rehab stint.

    The Yankees stated publicly throughout the summer that they hoped to have Wang back on the mound by September, though he fell well short of that goal. His cast came off at the end of July, and he began throwing off a mound in mid-October.

    The injury was a critical one. Wang had won 38 games over the past two seasons for the Yankees, and he finished second in American League Cy Young Award voting in 2006. His 19 wins ranked first in the league that season, and his 3.63 ERA ranked seventh.

    Wang, a non-drafted free agent, asked for $4.6 million through arbitration last season, his first as an eligible player, but he lost the case and made $4 million. He likely would have been due for a substantial raise this year if not for the injury, which placed something of a damper on the team's expectations. Still, his 46 wins since 2006 rank third-most in the AL, and his .754 winning percentage ranked second in the Majors, behind Boston's Jon Lester.

    Known for his heavy sinker, a pitch that has allowed him to succeed despite abnormally low strikeout rates, Wang will join new acquisitions Sabathia and Burnett in New York's rotation. Though the rest of the rotation remains unclear -- the Yankees are reportedly in talks to re-sign free agent Andy Pettitte, who would join Joba Chamberlain and Phil Hughes in the mix -- Wang, Sabathia and Burnett could form an impressive trio at the front end of the rotation.

    And if Wang can rediscover his success of 2006 and '07, he would be a relative bargain at $5 million. Sabathia, by comparison, will make $9.5 million before he even throws a pitch for the Yankees, plus another $8 million throughout the first year of his seven-year, $161 million contract. Burnett is entering the first season of a five-year, $82.5 million deal.

    Wang will be eligible for both arbitration and free agency following the 2010 season. Though general manager Brian Cashman said earlier this offseason that the team would proceed cautiously with Wang in Spring Training, the right-hander is a good bet to start the season in the rotation, or at least be close to returning to active duty.

    The Yankees have two other arbitration-eligible players, outfielders Melky Cabrera and Xavier Nady. Cabrera will be eligible for the first time, Nady for the third and final time. If the Yankees cannot strike a deal with either player as they did with Wang, they will need to exchange salary figures with those players on Jan. 19, then meet for arbitration hearings in February.

    A star in his native Taiwan, Wang, who has won more games than any other Taiwanese-born pitcher, was named one of Time magazine's 100 most influential people in 2007 for the fact that the Taiwanese stock market rises and falls based on the quality of his starts.

    His 54 career wins rank third among Asian-born pitchers, and helped him become the third-fastest Major League pitcher in the last 50 years to reach 50 career wins. Wang did it in his 85th career start; Dwight Gooden and Ron Guidry both did it in their 82nd career starts.


its a shame he was injured this past season -- not only could the yankees have really used him in the second half, but he certainly could have been rewarded with a bigger deal.

i hope there's a long-term contract in his future.

the "top 5" list above also excludes kennedy and, perhaps more noticeable, pettitte. be interesting to see how that all plays out


giant picture
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Offline
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Rob loves the Yankees Wang!

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Offline
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Also the numbers in Animalman's report list total baseball revenues but doesn't mention the fact that most of the increase is concentrated in a few teams(most notably the Yankees), so it isn't exactly fair to criticize other clubs who haven't spent as much, it's not as if every cubs revenue has increased by the overall percentage of MLB.

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Offline
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3791679

 Quote:
Lest anyone forget, the Tampa Bay Rays are the reigning AL East champions and they were vying to win the World Series in October.

So, forgive manager Joe Maddon if he isn't quaking in his cleats over the New York Yankees reaching a $180 million, eight-year agreement with slugging first baseman Mark Teixeira. Maddon still loves the makeup of his team, and he hinted that New York's deal with Teixeira won't alter the small-market Rays' fiscal philosophy either.

"I know we're supposed to be devastated by this, but we're not; for us to lament it does no good," Maddon told the Los Angeles Times in Wednesday's editions. "Of course, Teixeira is a wonderful player -- the Yankees always go after the biggest and the best, and they've done themselves well this winter.

"But we're going to do it our way. It comes down to if you pitch well, you're going to stop good hitters. A lot of what we did last year was based on pitching and good defense. If we continue to do those things well, we'll be right there."

The Yankees swooped in at the 11th hour Tuesday to nab Teixeira, who was also courted by the Boston Red Sox, Washington Nationals, Los Angeles Angels and Baltimore Orioles.

His agreement, the completion of which is subject to a physical, includes a signing bonus of about $5 million paid out in the first three years of the contract; no opt-out clause; and a complete no-trade provision, sources told ESPN The Magazine's Buster Olney.

The contract will pay Teixeira -- who made it clear he wanted to make a decision by Christmas on where to play next season and beyond -- an average of $22.5 million per season. Boston's offer to Teixeira was for $168 million over eight years, an average of $21 million a year.

"Man, that's crazy," Angels center fielder Torii Hunter told the Times. "Those damn Yankees! They don't play around. When they're trying to win, they're trying to win. It's crazy. They just paid $27 million in luxury tax. That's like 27 dollars to them. They don't even care."

The Yankees shed $88.5 million from their books; included in that are the contracts of $23.4 million on Jason Giambi, $16 million on Bobby Abreu, and $11 million to both Mike Mussina and Carl Pavano. New York has committed $423.5 million in salary in the past month, with $161 million going to left-handed pitcher CC Sabathia ($23 million per year for seven years) and $82.5 million to right-hander A.J. Burnett ($16.5 million per year for five years).

"At the rate the Yankees are going, I'm not sure anyone can compete with them," Milwaukee Brewers owner Mark Attanasio told Bloomberg News via e-mail. "Frankly, the sport might need a salary cap."

Teixeira's salary gives the Yankees, who are preparing to move into a $1.3 billion new ballpark in April, the four highest-paid players in Major League Baseball: Teixeira, Sabathia, third baseman Alex Rodriguez (10 years, $275 million) and shortstop Derek Jeter (10 years, $189 million).

"They're scary," Hunter told the Times. "Their rotation is one of the best, if not the best, in the game, and now look at their lineup. They have A-Rod, Jeter, Teixeira, Hideki Matsui, Xavier Nady, Robinson Cano, Jorge Posada is coming back [from injury], Nick Swisher ... golly, that's a nice lineup."

Teixeira's agreement also came just one day after the Yankees received a $26.9 million luxury tax bill (their 2008 payroll was a record $222.5 million, according to The Associated Press), though the Yankees anticipate their payroll is going to fall below $200 million because of expiring contracts. Their streak of 13 consecutive playoff appearances ended with Tampa Bay winning the division and Boston taking the wild card, but with the revenue stream from their new stadium, where some tickets are priced at up to $2,500 per game, the Yankees' appetite for free agents wasn't diminished.

"From the moment we arrived in Boston in late 2001, we sought to reduce the financial gap and succeeded to a degree," Red Sox owner John Henry said in an e-mail to The Associated Press, in reference to competing with the Yankees. "Now with a new stadium filled with revenue opportunities, they have leaped away from us again. So we have to be even more careful in deploying our resources."

The Yankees last reached the World Series in 2003 and won their last title in 2000. In addition to signing much-needed starting pitchers Sabathia and Burnett, Teixeira's power, on-base percentage and Gold Glove-caliber defense are expected to help end the team's championship drought.

"They've had the best lineup I've seen for seven years in a row and they haven't won it all," Hunter told the Times. "They can still be beat. It will take dedication, hard work, and you've got to have heart. When you have that, you have a chance."

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 34,236
Likes: 15
"Hey this is PCG342's bro..."
15000+ posts
Offline
"Hey this is PCG342's bro..."
15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 34,236
Likes: 15
 Originally Posted By: BASAMS The Plumber
Also the numbers in Animalman's report list total baseball revenues but doesn't mention the fact that most of the increase is concentrated in a few teams(most notably the Yankees), so it isn't exactly fair to criticize other clubs who haven't spent as much, it's not as if every cubs revenue has increased by the overall percentage of MLB.


Rob fell for it hook line and sinker!


"Are you eating it...or is it eating you?"

[center][Linked Image from i13.photobucket.com] [/center]

[center][Linked Image from i13.photobucket.com][/center]
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Offline
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/bird-la...mark-the-price/

 Quote:
TOWER GROVE — Five years ago the St. Louis Cardinals and the finest hitter of his generation were steaming toward what could have been a dicey and milestone arbitration hearing when, in the 11th hour, Albert Pujols agreed to the largest contract in franchise history. The deal, still active today, made Pujols the ninth $100-million man in baseball history and, at 24, the youngest ever to reach the salary threshold.

As the MVP enters the penultimate year of his guaranteed contract, one thing is clear.

He’s been a bargain.

What is Albert Pujols worth?

News of the New York Yankees inking first baseman Mark Teixeira to an eight-year, $180-million deal rippled through baseball yesterday, and there were probably two interested parties who had little direct interest in where Teixeira signed. The Cardinals and Pujols’ reps cared about what Teixeira signed for. The switch-hitting, Gold Glove-caliber Teixeira finalized a deal with the spree-spending Yankees that averages $22.5 million a year, according to reports. More than Jason Giambi’s contract a few years ago with these same Yankees, Teixeira is a clear and tangible benchmark to help set the market for … well, what Pujols could command as a free agent. Does Teixeira’s new deal hint at Pujols’ next deal?

Both will be 29 during this coming season. Both hit in the middle of the order. Both play first.

Beyond that …

Pujols won his second National League MVP this winter. Teixeira has finished only as high as seventh in the voting, and that was back in 2005. Teixeira, while a switch hitter, is a .290 career hitter with a .541 career slugging percentage. Pujols is a career .334 hitter with a .624 slugging percentage. Some statistical shakedowns:

CAREER … BA/OBP/SLG … 162-gm AVG (ba/obp/slg, hr, rbi)

Teixeira … .290/.378/.541 … .290/.378/.541, 36, 121

Pujols … .334/.425/.624 … .334/.425/.624, 42, 128

3-YEAR … BA/OBP/SLG … HR … RBI

Teixeira … .298/.393/,541 … 96 … 336

Pujols … .338/.440/.629 … 118 … 356

One number that deserves its popularity because of its authority and its ability to compare players against each other and the era in which they play is OPS+. It basically is on-base-percentage plus slugging percentage compared against the league average. It’s a number set at 100 — so <100 is below average and >100 is above average. Teixeira’s career OPS is a sturdy 134. Pujols’ is 170.

Using additional advanced-placement metrics that we have at our fingertips these days, Pujols pulls even further ahead. Value Over Replacement Player (VORP) is simply the number of runs one player contributes to the team over what a replacement at the same position would do with the same number of plate appearances. This past season Pujols led the majors with a 98.6 VORP, according to Baseball Prospectus. It is the second time in three seasons that Pujols has been No. 1.

Teixeira hasn’t cracked the top 50 in that same span.

VORP (according to Baseball Prospectus)

2008 — Teixeira: 35.2 (53rd), right around Troy Glaus, Evan Longoria and two other high-priced ballplayers, Derek Jeter and Magglio Ordonez. … Pujols: 98.6 (1st).

2007 — Teixeira: 27.1 (91st). … Pujols: 72.1 (9th).

2006 — Teixeira: 37.4 (54th), sandwiched between Edgar Renteria and Scott Rolen, and we all know what was going on then with him. … Pujols: 85.4 (1st).

Pujols, it should be noted, does not switch-hit like Teixeira. Of course, he doesn’t need to.

Gold-standard: Pujols in the field

But what about defense? The measures of defense are constantly evolving and improving. One of the best out there right now is the plus/minus used by The Fielding Bible. This is the same publication that has awarded Pujols its equivalent of the Gold Glove every year that is has given out the award. Pujols won this year despite not leading his position in plus/minus for the first time in three seasons. Who did? Teixeira. It only takes a few games of watching Teixeira to know that he’s an above-average defensive player. Athletic. Agile. Etc. The numbers don’t necessarily support the eyes, but it’s safe to say Pujols and Teixeira are, ahem, in the same ballpark when it comes to playing first base.

Their plus/minus scores for the past three seasons (rank at the position in parentheses).

PLAYER, POS … 2006 … 2007 … 2008

TEIXEIRA, 1B … +2 (15) … -4 (22) … +24 (1)

PUJOLS, 1B … +25 (1) … +37 (1) … +20 (2)

All of that is prelude to the original question: What does Teixeira’s new deal tell us about Pujols’ next deal?

It’s a mind-boggling to consider. Is Pujols twice the player, twice the salary? Is Pujols 1 1/2-times the player? Pujols is signed on a guaranteed deal through 2010, and there is a $16-million option for the 2011 season. According to the USA Today salary database (see blogroll), Pujols’ salary didn’t crack the top 25 this past season, but at $16 million for 2009 he’ll likely be in the top 10. Teixeira, at about $20 million in 2009, could be in the top five.

The Cardinals, led then by Walt Jocketty, scored a coup by buying Pujols out of his arbitration years entirely, and they do have rights to him until just a few months before he turns 32. That could reduce the years Pujols will command — especially compared to 29-year-old Teixeira — but not the salary.

I’ve found a few places that have attempted to answer the question what Pujols would make as a free agent in today’s markets. Some present it merely as an academic discussion and don’t arrive at any answer. Others break into mathematical gymnastics far beyond this blog’s ability to translate. At The Baseball Economists’ blog, J.C. Bradbury frames his MVP argument in 2007 around revenue generated by a players’ performance. Pujols ranks well. At Fangraphs there was an announcement today that they are translating some of their sharpest stats into dollar figures and will have leaderboards up shortly. Over at The Book, a blog spawned from a book about The Book, the author wrestled with the Pujols Question, and came to some outrageous conclusions: $300 million. As his guide he used a fascinating scale based on Wins Above Replacement (WAR), similar to the above Value.

The author’s chart is available here, and it illustrates how a player with a 7.0 wins above a replacement player is deserving of a 10-year, $305.9 million contract. (Yowza.)

Using those aforementioned Fangraph numbers, Pujols’ WAR in 2008 was … 9.0.

Cardinals first baseman Albert Pujols after a home run.

Clearly, there is no way to calculate Pujols’ worth using other players’ salaries. He defies the market. Teixeira’s new contract only underscores what was already apparent: Pujols is due a raise. A hefty one. If five years ago, he was the youngest $100-million man, then two years from now is he the first $30-million year man? The way his contract with the Cardinals is structured they will be paying him deferred salary long after he retires, until 2029. Might as well minimize the paperwork and keep the paychecks coming from the same source.

To determine the value of that paycheck, however, you can’t rely on comparables. Or, maybe not current comparables. Baseball-Reference.com has a unique feature that compares a player at his current age against all players at the same age. For a majority of his career, Pujols has compared favorably to Joe DiMaggio. There was a break this season. Here are Teixeira’s and Pujols’ comparables, via Baseball-Reference.com’s formula:

TEIXEIRA

1. Carlos Delgado
2. Kent Hrbek
3. Fred McGriff

PUJOLS

1. Jimmie Foxx
2. Hank Aaron
3. Frank Robinson

Maybe that’s the key to understanding how the Cardinals can approach Pujols’ new contract. It’s Teixeira or even Alex Rodriguez that they should consider. Neither compares. The question is: What would Hank Aaron make today?

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
10000+ posts
Offline
10000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
 Originally Posted By: BASAMS The Plumber
Also the numbers in Animalman's report list total baseball revenues but doesn't mention the fact that most of the increase is concentrated in a few teams(most notably the Yankees), so it isn't exactly fair to criticize other clubs who haven't spent as much, it's not as if every cubs revenue has increased by the overall percentage of MLB.


Thanks to CBA signed in 2006, that's exactly what it means. The Yankees are a cash cow, thanks in no small part to their network contract with YES!, and owners like Jeff Loria take their cut from revenue sharing and sit on it(or use it to prop up their other businesses).


MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Offline
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
I guess you don't really understand the revenue sharing. Even with the revenue sharing the teams aren't anywhere near equal, the Yankeess still pull in millions upon millions more than many teams.

But don;t get me wrong I don't believe spending=winning. The Yankees above all else are great examples on the other end is Tampa Bay who spend little and went farther, I was just pointing out the holes on the story you posted.

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
10000+ posts
Offline
10000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
 Originally Posted By: BASAMS The Plumber
I guess you don't really understand the revenue sharing. Even with the revenue sharing the teams aren't anywhere near equal, the Yankeess still pull in millions upon millions more than many teams. But don;t get me wrong I don't believe spending=winning. The Yankees above all else are great examples on the other end is Tampa Bay who spend little and went farther, I was just pointing out the holes on the story you posted.


Of course they aren't equal. The article doesn't say they are. What it says is that the difference between the Yankees and most of the other teams in baseball isn't that they don't have money to spend. Far from it, infact, as the Steinbrenners aren't close to being the richest family in baseball. The difference is that the Yankees are one of the few teams owned by a group willing to "play ball" and spend the money that the market dictates they should. That's what creates the payroll disparity that isn't seen in any other major sport. The Jeff Lorias of the world are able to willfully put a cheap, substandard product on the field, and still come away with a large profit due to the bump that teams like the Yankees give them with revenue sharing.

Now, how they spend their money isn't always wise, which is why the argument is often put forward that spending doesn't equal winning, but the fact of the matter is that the Yankees have it right. Teams like the Rays are a good formula to follow as it pertains to roster construction, but if the Rays are going to stay contenders they'll have to open their checkbooks a little, as even the notoriously stingy(but savvy) A's have started to do.


MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 12,912
Kneel!
10000+ posts
Offline
Kneel!
10000+ posts
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 12,912
 Originally Posted By: Animalman
as even the notoriously stingy(but savvy) A's have started to do.



freakin finally...


big_pimp_tim-made it cool to roll in the first damn place!
Mon Jun 11 2007 09:27 PM-harley finally rolled with me
"I'm working with him...he's young but, there is much potential. He can apprentice with me and then he's yours for final training. He will remember the face of his father...

Some day, Knutreturns just may be the greatest of us all...."-THE bastard
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Offline
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Animalman still doesn't understand it seems.

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 32,001
Likes: 1
PJP Offline OP
We already are
15000+ posts
OP Offline
We already are
15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 32,001
Likes: 1
With revenue sharing every team can afford at least an 80 million dollar payroll. So for the teams that have payrolls that are 15, 20 or 25 million the fans should be pissed off when their good young talent leaves for other teams via free agency.

With that said the Yankees do make more money than most teams and have an advantage. But they make the money and should be spending it on the team instead of the owners keeping the money for themselves. But Boston the Mets, Dodgers and most other big market teams could have payrolls as big as the Yanks if they wanted to. If they ever have a salary cap I would be ok with it as a fan just as long as they had a salary floor that forced these owners to maintain payrolls of at least 60-80 million dollars per team..

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
10000+ posts
Offline
10000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
Also, missed this before, but a big blunder in the St. Louis Today article:

 Quote:

VORP (according to Baseball Prospectus)

2008 — Teixeira: 35.2 (53rd), right around Troy Glaus, Evan Longoria and two other high-priced ballplayers, Derek Jeter and Magglio Ordonez. … Pujols: 98.6 (1st).

2007 — Teixeira: 27.1 (91st). … Pujols: 72.1 (9th).

2006 — Teixeira: 37.4 (54th), sandwiched between Edgar Renteria and Scott Rolen, and we all know what was going on then with him. … Pujols: 85.4 (1st).


Lazy research in sports journalism strikes again. The numbers the writer cites for Teixeira's 2008 season are only based on his 50+ game stretch with the Angels, and his 2007 number is only from his time as a Brave. His total VORP for '08 is is 66.2, which makes him fourth in all of baseball, not 53rd. His 2007 total is 53.1, which made him 24th, not 91st, and came in only 570 at bats. His total had he played the whole year would have but him somewhere in the top 20. Further proof that Teixeira is indeed a top player.

Of course, comparing anyone to Pujols is silly. The only guy close to his level is A-Rod. As BP put it, he's Mozart with a bat.


MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Offline
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Animalman, you can bend the numbers to help your cause, but really buck up it's okay for you to be wrong.

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Offline
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
 Originally Posted By: PJP
With revenue sharing every team can afford at least an 80 million dollar payroll.


If every team spent at least 80 million it would be the same situation though, only average salaries would be higher.

But spending doesn;t equal wins, it only makes teams that do not have a grasp on what makes a winning team able to compete more easily. A lot of GM's are stat freaks like Animalman and they don;t understand that winning baseball is way more than OPS and other silly stats. But if you throw enough money at those guys and accumulate enough it makes you more competitive. Prime example is the Yankees last year, higest payroll in the majors and not in the playoffs.

I think it's silly for people to complain about the Yankees spending as this will bite them in a few years when they are saddled with multiyear deals and aging players or injured players. Where some teams will be able to adapt due to not being overwhelmed with Payroll they wont be able to. So it all evens out, its why the Yanks are up and down like everyone else including most small market teams. The Brewers made a heck of a run with a fairly small budget in comparison, you dont hear people complaining its not fair they have smarter scouts and GM. You use whatever resources you have.

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,820
Rob Offline
cobra kai
15000+ posts
Offline
cobra kai
15000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,820
 Originally Posted By: BASAMS The Plumber
I think it's silly for people to complain about the Yankees spending as this will bite them in a few years when they are saddled with multiyear deals and aging players or injured players. Where some teams will be able to adapt due to not being overwhelmed with Payroll they wont be able to. So it all evens out, its why the Yanks are up and down like everyone else including most small market teams. The Brewers made a heck of a run with a fairly small budget in comparison, you dont hear people complaining its not fair they have smarter scouts and GM. You use whatever resources you have.


very much agree.

there's a lot of ignored negative when it comes to spending, its such a fallacy to not acknowledge that. not just when the team is saddled with the burdens of their purchases, but also the very fact that the money is gone. assuming a billionaire isn't phased by the loss of hundreds of millions of dollars is ridiculous.

the only thing spending guarantees is money spent. in the yanks case, they spent insane money and didn't even make the playoffs this year -- watching, instead, as the cheapest team in the land did. and if they end up winning next year or in 10 years, what do they get? a trophy! its not like they get the money back through winning, its still gone. worse yet, it's not just outta their pockets, but funneled into their competitors.

in a perfect world, i'd love to see a salary floor, where teams were forced to compete. in a perfecter world, i'd love to see more teams like tampa bay succeed (or the a's for a period) to show how it can be done without money. in a perfectiest world, i'd love to have all of these ridiculous numbers deflated. yanks are at 200 mil, but even tampa is at like 40 mil ... how are people playing games for this level of cash?? my dad always tells me that superstars of his day, even big names like berra or mantle, often had to get other gigs to fill in the time between -- from endorsements to bowling alleys to winter jobs.


giant picture
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Offline
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
The guys the Yanks were saddled with this past year were griped about 4 or 5 years ago as being "bought" by the Yankees, so its silly for people to be upset by these guys this year.

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,820
Rob Offline
cobra kai
15000+ posts
Offline
cobra kai
15000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,820
exactly!

and, on the other side, its been a majority of the cheaper/younger teams that have succeeded in the past decade or so, despite the


giant picture
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Offline
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Here's a great article about why a salary cap wouldn't help in baseball :

 Quote:
http://www.murraychass.com/?p=391

As the owner of the Milwaukee Brewers for only four years, Mark Attanasio is a mere babe in baseball. Like many players, he might not know what came before him. Baseball life, to Attanasio, began in 2005.

He could be excused, then, for not realizing the storm he might be creating when he invoked the inflammatory words “salary cap.”

Attanasio raised the incendiary issue in an e-mail interview with Bloomberg News when he was asked his reaction to the Yankees’ signing of three free agents for $423.5 million.

“At the rate the Yankees are going, I’m not sure anyone can compete with them,” Attanasio replied. “Frankly, the sport might need a salary cap.”

No one in the sport has uttered that provocative phrase in more than 10 years. It caused the most disastrous work stoppage in sports history, and no one who was around in 1994-5-6 wants to experience that terrible time again.

Before going further with this matter, let’s clarify the terminology. Everyone, including the three major professional sports that have one, calls it a salary cap. It is not a salary cap because it does not place a cap on individual salaries.

Under the rules in the National Football League, the National Basketball Association and the National Hockey League and what was proposed in Major League Baseball, teams may pay an individual player anything they negotiate. The team, though, cannot exceed the amount of money allowed under that season’s rules for its entire team.

In other words, there is a cap on payrolls so we should be talking about a payroll cap, not a salary cap.

When Attansaio commented on the Yankees’ signings, he was talking about a payroll cap. He wasn’t suggesting that a team be restricted in what it could pay any single player but what it could pay its entire roster of players.

Actually, I can’t be certain what Attanasio was proposing. I wanted to talk to him to find out more about what he meant, but he was not available. His spokesman said he was traveling with his family and wouldn’t be available until the new year.

I wanted to ask Attanasio if he was aware of baseball’s history with the idea of a payroll cap, how the owners kept proposing it in labor negotiations, the players kept rejecting the idea and a work stoppage usually resulting.

It was interesting that it was Attanasio who raised the issue and not one of his more senior colleagues. They know better than to bring up subjects that are better left dormant.

Major League officials chose not to comment. A spokesman for Commissioner Bud Selig said he felt it would be inappropriate for him to comment on comments made by an owner.

One skeptic on the union side suggested that maybe Selig put Attanasio up to raising the cap issue, but Selig took too severe a beating in the last strike to look for more. It may be more likely that Selig called Attanasio, the steward of Selig’s former team, and asked him to forget the cap idea and leave sleeping dogs lie.

Rob Manfred, the owners’ chief labor executive, also declined to say anything. “I’m not going to comment about what an owner said,” Manfred said.

Donald Fehr, the leader of the union, who has led the players in their repeated rejection of a payroll cap, did comment. Refering to the Yankees’ perennially high expenditures and their inability to win a World Series championship since 2000, he said, “Other major league clubs seem not to have had any problems competing with the Yankees the last seven, eight years.”

Attanasio was most likely upset because the Yankees lured Sabathia away from the Brewers by offering $61 million more, then signed two more expensive free agents. But the Yankees didn’t overwhelm A.J, Burnett and Mark Teixeira the way they did Sabathia. The Atlanta Braves were close on Burnett, and a few teams, including the Boston Red Sox, were close on Teixeira.

If the players had their reasons for choosing the Yankees, such as the Yankees giving them the best chance to go to the World Series, that’s not going to change as long as the Yankees remain competitive.

Critics of the Yankees, on the other hand, argue that most, if not all other teams, would have been forced to stop at Sabathia. They would not have been financially able to sign Burnett and Teixeira, too. But the Yankees have the money and will have more from revenue generated by their new park.

Should they voluntarily limit themselves in what they spend? If so, where should they stop? Should they decide themselves or should someone else? If someone else, who? Bud Selig? Mark Attanasio?

That would be the role of a payroll cap, Attanasio might say. All right, where would Attanasio draw the line to create the cap?

The Yankees’ 2008 40-man payroll was $222 million, $76 million more than second-place Boston paid its players and $79 million more than the Mets’ payroll. Attanasio’s Brewers were right in the middle, 15th, with an $88 million payroll.

Should the Yankees have to come down to the Brewers’ level? If a payroll cap were set above the Brewers’ level, would they have to increase their payroll to reach the cap?

But for me to go on about a payroll cap is irrelevant because baseball will never have a payroll cap. What baseball will have, however, is unpredictability in which a team with a $222 million payroll doesn’t even make the post-season.

In addition, with the payroll cap issue out of the picture, the owners and the players have negotiated a record two consecutive labor agreements without a strike or a lockout. The existing agreement runs through Dec. 11, 2011. That’s at least three more years of labor peace.

Owners stopped pushing for a payroll cap because baseball’s revenues took off. They reached $6.5 billion this year, providing enough money for owners and players both, not to mention the commissioner, whose salary one club official said he was told exceeded $20 million.

Information Bank Redux?

In 1987 and 88, the owners ran a bank that took deposits from all of the teams. The teams, though, didn’t deposit money. They reported offers they made to free agents, and the information was shared with other clubs. The union discovered the existence of the information bank in 1988 during a hearing on its grievance against the clubs charging collusion against free agents.

I personally thought the information bank was a great idea. It was the easiest time I ever had getting information on offers made to free agents. The only problem was the bank violated the labor agreement.

Faced with an arbitrator’s ruling against them, the owners closed the bank. Now, however, some agents suspect that clubs are sharing information again, letting everyone know what they offer free agents.

“There are a lot of rumblings that all the teams know exactly what everyone is doing with free agents,” one prominent agent said.

But a union lawyer said the union didn’t have any evidence of information sharing, and Rob Manfred, the owners’ chief labor executive, denied the existence of any sharing operation.

“I don’t know how an agent would have any information about that,” Manfred said. “There is no formal notification about information. Given all the information that’s out there publicly, it would be difficult not to know what teams have offered.”

Whether or not the clubs are sharing offers, there’s no question that the market is moving slower than usual and except for some of the big contracts, free agents are signing for or being offered less than in past years.

But agents acknowledge that the clubs have a ready-made excuse, or cover, for not acting as they have in previous years: the economy.

“There’s continuing pressure for teams to cut their budgets,” an agent said. “Teams that intended to be aggressive had to cut back because budgets have been lowered.”

Commissioner Bud Selig has warned clubs about watching what they spend because of the depressed state of the economy. Most teams seem to be heeding the warning. The Yankees aren’t in that group.

Capping off a Record

If Chris Capuano can make it back next season from his second Tommy John surgery (elbow ligament transplant), he will have a chance to end the 16-start losing streak with which he finished the 2007 season. On the other hand, he could break the record Walt Dickson set with the Boston Braves in 1912 when the Braves lost 18 successive Dickson starts.

Capuano, a 30-year-old left-hander, underwent elbow surgery last May 15 and missed all of the 2008 season. The Brewers didn’t tender him a contract this month, making him a free agent, but signed him to a minor league contract. They would welcome his return considering that they have lost CC Sabathia and could also lose Ben Sheets.

The Brewers lost Capuano’s last 16 starts in 2007, giving him the third longest such streak behind Dickson and Jack Nabors, whose team, the Philadelphia Athletics, lost 17 of his starts in a row in 1916. But Capuano added an extra twist to his streak.

After the Brewers removed him from the starting rotation and put him in the bullpen, Capuano was the losing pitcher in his first two relief appearances, giving the Brewers losses in 18 consecutive games in which Capuano pitched.

Big Contracts Don’t Produce Rings

Before anyone sizes the fingers of CC Sabathia, A.J. Burnett and Mark Teixeira for World Series rings, pause and think about Mike Mussina, Jason Giambi and Alex Rodriguez. Mussina and Giambi signed with the Yankees thinking they offered the best chance to get a World Series ring. Rodriguez greeted his trade to the Yankees with the same thought.

But Mussina played eight years with the Yankees without winning a ring and has now retired. Giambi played seven years without getting a ring and has left as a free agent. Rodriguez is still with the Yankees but has already played five years without a ring.

In other words, glamorous, high-paid players don’t guarantee a World Series championship.

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
10000+ posts
Offline
10000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
 Originally Posted By: BASAMS The Plumber
But spending doesn;t equal wins, it only makes teams that do not have a grasp on what makes a winning team able to compete more easily. A lot of GM's are stat freaks like Animalman and they don;t understand that winning baseball is way more than OPS and other silly stats. But if you throw enough money at those guys and accumulate enough it makes you more competitive. Prime example is the Yankees last year, higest payroll in the majors and not in the playoffs.


I am very much a baseball outsider, so I'm not privy to the inner-workings of your typical MLB front office, but my opinion is that most GM's really aren't what you term "stat freaks". If you get a chance to check out the winter meetings(this year they were in Las Vegas, next year they're in Indianapolis I think), you'll find traditional scouting methods still dominate baseball thinking, for the most part, and even as talent evaluators begin to incorporate certain metrics into their lexicon, they're often years behind those within the sabermetric community. OPS is a nice, easily calculated stat, but its not the end all be all. One thing that I can't stress enough is that I don't say that any stat is important; just the right stats, placed in the proper context. Raw stats like OPS lack that context, and context is everything.

There are only about a half-dozen teams around the league right now that are generally recognized as being statistically progressive in their thinking, and in my view, its no coincidence that many of these teams are among the leagues best, such as Boston and Tampa Bay(and those historically successful, like Oakland and San Diego).

Despite the presence of Brian Cashman, the Yankees are definitely not a "stat freak" team. No stat freak team would start an outfield with Johnny Damon, Brett Gardner and Xavier Nady.


MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Offline
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,820
Rob Offline
cobra kai
15000+ posts
Offline
cobra kai
15000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 45,820
those eyes pierce right into your soul, then spin you around til you die


giant picture
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Offline
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you)
50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734
 Quote:
The Yankees received their $26.9 million 2008 luxury tax bill only last week, and they have already qualified for the 2009 tax, exceeding the tax threshold when they have signed less than half of their 40-man roster.

The Yankees have 14 players under contract for 2009, and the annual average values of their contracts total $186.35 million. The threshold over which tax must be paid will be $162 million next season. At 40 percent, the Yankees’ personal tax rate (for multiple excesses), they already owe $9.74 million.

Although it applies only to next year, the Yankees’ current payroll total also exceeds the thresholds for 2010 ($170 million) and 2011 ($178 million).

The Yankees insist that their 2009 payroll will be lower than the 2008 payroll, but I am skeptical, not that I care what their payroll is. I don’t have to pay it.

The problem with computing payrolls is there are so many different ways of doing it. The original, old-fashioned way bases payroll on 25-man rosters and disabled lists as of Aug. 31. On that basis, the Yankees’ payroll this year was $218 million.

(The figure most widely used by reporters for the Yankees’ payroll is $209 million because that was the opening-day figure computed by Ron Blum of the Associated Press, who quickly and accurately reports contract figures as soon as clubs report them to the commissioner’s office. Once Blum has done their work for them in calculating all opening-day payrolls, baseball reporters for the most part are too lazy to update them for the teams they cover, adding each arrival and subtracting each departure, so they are now nine months behind.)

Until the past couple of seasons, the commissioner’s office used the old-fashioned method to determine payrolls. Now it bases payrolls on 40-man rosters. On that basis, the Yankees’ payroll this year was $222 million.

It was also, coincidentally, $222 million in payrolls calculated for luxury tax purposes. In that method, players’ contracts are averaged, and the average annual values are added to determine which teams are above the threshold as stated in the collective bargaining agreement. In the other methods, the salary for that particular season is used, and a pro-rated share of a signing bonus, if any, is added to the salary.

No matter which payroll the Yankees want to lower, they will have to do some tricky calculations. Their luxury tax payroll was $222 million; it’s now $186.35. The Aug. 31-based payroll was $218 million. It’s now $192.85 million.

On the other hand, with virtually every starting position player and nearly every significant pitcher signed, the Yankees apparently have only one player left to sign for a double-digit salary. That’s Andy Pettitte, who has not responded to the Yankees’ $10 million offer.

He hasn’t responded because he doesn’t want to take a $6 million cut in pay, but there’s no suggestion out there that says someone else is willing to give him more. Pettitte actually is a pivotal figure in a puzzling claim the Yankees have made. The claim has been bought and repeated by so many people, reporters and fans alike, that they recite it like a mantra: 88.5, 88.5, 88.5. Baseball writers use the number so automatically it must be a key on their computer keyboards: 88.5, 88.5, 88.5.

What is it? Put a dollar sign in front and million after it, and it becomes $88.5 million, the amount of money that has supposedly come off the Yankees’ payroll since last season and supports the tale the Yankees tell routinely, that their 2009 payroll will be lower than their 2008 payroll.

But the Yankees base their projection on that 88.5 figure, and it doesn’t exist, at least not that my mathematical gymnastics can find. Let me attempt to get to that total.

First some ground rules. For players who will not be back with the Yankees next season, I have used their base 2008 salaries and pro-rated shares of signing bonuses because that’s the traditional method of calculation used by the commissioner’s office and the Players Association. For players who were traded to or from the Yankees during the season, I have allotted to the Yankees only the portions of their salaries they earned while they were with the Yankees.

Let’s begin by taking the obvious departed players:
Jason Giambi

$23,428,571
Bobby Abreu

$16,000,000
Mike Mussina

$11,500,000
Carl Pavano

$11,000,000

Those salaries add to a rounded off $62 million. Now add Pettitte’s $16 million salary, although he may yet re-sign with the Yankees.

Wilson Betemit is gone with his $1,165,000 salary, and so is Ivan Rodriguez, whose salary last season was $13 million but only about a third of it with the Yankees, who paid him $4,262,294.

The Yankees didn’t exercise Damaso Marte’s $6 million option for next season, but they bought it out for $250,000 and they signed him to a new three-year, $12 million contract with a first-year salary of $3.75 million. The Yankees paid the relief pitcher $751,912 for the two months he played for them last season, but next season they will pay him five times the amount that was taken off the payroll.

Two other pitchers won’t be back with the Yankees, but the Yankees won’t be saving a load of money as a result of their departures: Darrell Rasner’s $409,000 and the $200,328 they paid Sidney Ponson as a pro-rated share of the minimum salary ($390,000) contract they gave him after Texas released him from a guaranteed contract.

The Yankees would put Kyle Farnsworth and Latroy Hawkins in the departed column, but both pitchers were traded last July, just before the non-waiver trading deadline and don’t figure in the payrolls based on Aug. 31 rosters and disabled lists. In other words, Farnsworth was traded for Rodriguez, and you can’t count both of their salaries.

So let’s see what we have. With the initial $62 million and assuming Pettitte won’t be back, the total off the payroll is $78 million. Throw in Rodriguez, Betemit, Rasner and Ponson but not Marte, Hawkins and Farnsworth, and the total off the 2008 payroll becomes $84 million and change.

That’s close to 88.5, but it’s not 88.5. And if Pettitte should sign, it becomes $74 million. There are other deductions to make from the off-the-payroll total. Like Marte, teammates Pavano and Giambi had options that the Yankees opted not to pick up. Their buyouts were more expensive — $1.95 million for Pavano, $5 million for Giambi, making a total of $7.2 million in buyouts, which reduces the off-the-payroll savings to $76.8 million.

Now let’s see what the Yankees will spend next season that they didn’t spend this season. Right off the bat they have $23 million for CC Sabathia, $22.5 million for Mark Teixeira and $16.5 million for A.J. Burnett.

Alex Rodriguez’s salary will rise by $5 million, Robinson Cano’s by $3 million, Chien-Ming Wang’s by $1 million. Add $5.4 million for newcomer Nick Swisher and a net of $2.7 million for Marte. Those eight players will be paid $79 million that wasn’t on the payroll this year.

Add $79 million to the $7.2 million in buyouts, and we almost wipe out the $88.5 million the Yankee claim. If Pettitte signs for $10 million, the new money will exceed the departed money, even if it is $88.5 million.

But it’s all the Yankees’ money, and as far as I’m concerned, they can spend it any way they want.

The average annual value of 14 Yankees’ contracts already signed (in millions):
Rodriguez

$27.50
Sabathia

23.00
Teixeira

22.50
Jeter

18.90
Burnett

16.50
Rivera

15.00
Posada

13.10
Damon

13.00
Matsui

13.00
Cano

7.50
Swisher

5.35
Chien-Ming Wang

5.00
Marte

4.00
Molina

2.00



Total

186.35
2009 Tax Threshold

162.00

Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 34,236
Likes: 15
"Hey this is PCG342's bro..."
15000+ posts
Offline
"Hey this is PCG342's bro..."
15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 34,236
Likes: 15
 Originally Posted By: King Snarf

You've clearly never been to a sports bar in Philly during an Eagles game. Nothing but green and white.


I doubt you have either, asshole...


"Are you eating it...or is it eating you?"

[center][Linked Image from i13.photobucket.com] [/center]

[center][Linked Image from i13.photobucket.com][/center]
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 28,009
Inglourious Basterd!!!
15000+ posts
Offline
Inglourious Basterd!!!
15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 28,009
 Originally Posted By: MisterJLA
 Originally Posted By: King Snarf

You've clearly never been to a sports bar in Philly during an Eagles game. Nothing but green and white.


I doubt you have either, asshole...


Sure he has...just before they open it up for karaoke night.


Uschi said:
I won't rape you, I'll just fuck you 'till it hurts and then not stop and you'll cry.

MisterJLA: RACKS so hard, he called Jim Rome "Chris Everett." In Him, all porn is possible. He is far above mentions in so-called "blogs." RACK him, lest ye be lost!

"I can't even brush my teeth without gagging!" - Tommy Tantillo: Wank & Cry, heckpuppy, and general laughingstock

[Linked Image from i6.photobucket.com]
Page 7 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5