RKMBs Forums .::Robegories::. Sports and Wrestling Johan Santana going to the Mets

Santana makes Mets an NL favorite
Tuesday, January 29, 2008

The Mets get Johan Santana without giving up Fernando Martinez, their best prospect, or Mike Pelfrey, their best young pitcher. They also immediately make themselves the favorites to win their division and have a good argument that they're the best team in the National League. It's hard to see this deal as anything other than a win for New York, and given how many people claimed (erroneously) that the Mets didn't have the prospects to get Santana, it must be doubly sweet for Omar Minaya right now.

For the Twins, or at least for their fans, this has to feel like a huge letdown after a winter that saw names like Jacoby Ellsbury and Phil Hughes bandied about by the media, although whether those players were actually available in trade talks is another matter entirely. The Twins deal their best asset and the best pitcher in franchise history -- not to mention the greatest Rule 5 pick in the history of that draft -- for quantity, but not the type of quality you expect a pitcher of his caliber to fetch in return.

In Santana, the Mets get one of the game's best pitchers, a two-time Cy Young Award winner who has to be the early favorite for the NL Cy right away, given his track record and the run and defensive support he'll get in New York. It's a five-win upgrade at worst, more if you consider the sixth- and seventh-starter types the Mets might have had to employ this year had they not made this deal. But the addition of Santana does two things for the Mets above and beyond the direct value he provides with his pitching. One, he'll give the Mets 50-75 more innings than they would have gotten from the starter he replaces in the rotation; he takes pressure off their bullpen and allows Willie Randolph to give his best relievers more rest, which he wasn't able to do last August and September. Two, he pushes everyone in the rotation back into a more suitable spot. Pelfrey now has to "win" a starting role in spring training, which, given the work he still needs to do, is not a bad situation. Oliver Perez and John Maine won't line up quite as often against opposing No. 1 and 2 starters.

Santana is not without his red flags; he stumbled to the finish in 2007 and in the past has had elbow chips, a problem that tends to recur. He's become more flyball-oriented recently, leading to a big spike in his home run rate this year; the acquisition could encourage the Citi Field architects to push the fences back a few feet. And the days of him shouldering 230-240 innings a year may be behind him, although facing the pitcher two or three times a game may help him recover some of the lost workload.

The Twins' package includes two raw prospects with high ceilings and two near-in, low-upside arms. Carlos Gomez is a plus-plus runner, has a quick bat and makes a lot of contact with a wrist-heavy swing, but doesn't project to hit for power now because he doesn't use his lower half to get more power into his swing. He's an excellent defender in center with a plus arm -- imagine a Coco Crisp who could throw the ball to the catcher without 15 hops -- which may encourage the Twins to use him in the majors right now, even though his bat's not ready.

Deolis Guerra is almost all youth and projection at this point, with his one major current skill an above-average changeup. His velocity is fringe-average and wildly inconsistent within outings, so the optimistic projection is that he'll eventually sit 92+, but there's also a good chance that he settles in where he is now. His curve has some depth, but like his velocity is inconsistent, and his feel for the pitch is particularly poor. He has a great pitcher's frame, 6-foot-5 with very broad shoulders and lots of room to fill out, and the fact that he has an advanced secondary pitch bodes well for him improving his command and feel with experience. But the bottom line is that he's 18 years old, so in the best-case scenario, he'll be contributing in the majors in three or four years, and that's if he doesn't get hurt or hit a snag in his development.

The other two arms are major-league ready or close to it, but have limited upside. Philip Humber's curveball was once a big-league out pitch, but since Tommy John surgery, it hasn't been as tight and he hasn't commanded it as well, leaving him more reliant on his average fastball to get hitters out. He has good control and an average third pitch in his changeup, but his days of upside as a No. 2 starter are gone. Kevin Mulvey also has a three-pitch repertoire but lacks any kind of out pitch, making up for it with good command and a willingness to mix his pitches up to get hitters out. Humber has a chance to break out of the 4/5 pitcher group in Minnesota, which also includes Glen Perkins and Kevin Slowey, while Mulvey just gives them another cheap option if one of those guys isn't ready in April.

In the abstract, it's hard to accept dealing your marquee player and top trading asset without getting your partner's top young player in return, and that's what the Twins did. They did get back significant economic value in four young players, each of whom has under one year of big-league service and two of whom aren't even on the Mets' 40-man roster yet, so the Twins will have each of them under control for six full years of service. That return in exchange for just one year of Santana's services is reasonable. But premium players should fetch premium prices, because there's value to a club in having so much production coming from a single roster spot. And in this case, Minnesota GM Bill Smith did not get a premium prospect in return.

It is now clear that the Twins simply wanted him out of the AL if they couldn't have him for themselves because even a straight up deal for Elsbury, Lester, Hughes, Kennedy or even Crisp or Melky would have been better than the 5 nobodies they got in return. Kind of laughable really. Good for the Mets.

One thing that to me is puzzling though is that the media is barely reporting it. If the Red Sox or Yanks landed him we would have been hearing about it all day long. It's not even a headline on ESPN.com!?!?

It was breaking news on ESPN yesterday around dinner time, and it was a top story throughout the night and this morning. I'm sure it'll make its way onto Around The Horn and PTI tonight.

Congrats to the Mets. Better them than the Yankees. And I'm sure Yankees fans are saying "Better them than the Red Sox."

mets really, really made out well here.

i can't believe the twins didn't hold out for more -- or even for just another month or two. if, say, andy pettitte got hurt during spring training, the yanks might feel forced to make a move for him, and more vulnerable to giving up better names.

They reported it I know that, but it would have been alot more obnoxious if the Yanks or Sox got him. Today it is almost a non existent story. The Super Bowl has alot to do with that but still.

True. I guess the entire National League and the Mets really DON'T matter.

Buster Olney writes.......

Santana in commanding positionposted: Wednesday, January 30, 2008 | Feedback | Print Entry
filed under: MLB

I would love to be the agent for Johan Santana today. I would love to ever possess the kind of leverage that Peter Greenberg, Santana's longtime representative, possesses today. He can sit across the table from the Mets and say: We'd like an extension please, of six years and $150 million. On top of the $13.25 million owed for this year.

The Mets will blanch. They will grimace. They will groan. And Greenberg, whose office is in New York and is well aware of the public pressure on the Mets to finish this deal, will know exactly how boxed in they are right now.

They're coming off the worse late-season collapse in baseball history.

They've got a huge hole at the front end of their rotation.

They've done almost nothing to upgrade the team this winter, with the most significant player move being the departure of Tom Glavine as a free agent.

The Mets will offer Santana something much less than $25 million a year, initially. Maybe five years, $20 million.

Greenberg can just say no to that, because the Mets need Santana like someone lost in the desert needs an oasis.

The Mets just made what is perceived to be a tremendous trade for Santana, a deal without giving up either shortstop Jose Reyes or prospect Fernando Martinez.

Santana was essentially dropped in their laps, after the super money powers in the Bronx and Boston ended their two-month stare-down by slowly backing away from the fight. After circling and circling this situation like a buzzard, the Mets now sit on top of this, ready to gnaw.

After Greenberg says no to five years and $100 million, the Mets might upgrade their extension offer to something in the range of five years and $115 million. And Greenberg can just say no, because of where the Mets sit, and because of history.

The largest contract deal ever for a pitcher went to Barry Zito last winter, at seven years and $126 million. And everybody knows that Santana is better than Zito, as much as Tom Brady is better than Philip Rivers. The Players Association will want Santana to establish new benchmarks (highest average annual value and total package) for a pitcher; the Cubs' Carlos Zambrano currently has the highest AAV at $18.3 million.

The Mets will swallow hard and go to a sixth year. Six years, $22 million, for a total package of $145 million, including the $13.25 million Santana will make this year. And Greenberg can say no, because he knows the Mets have to sign him.

They're opening a new ballpark (what appears to be a beautiful CitiField) in 2009.

They've got their own network.

They play in New York.

They cannot get this close to signing the best pitcher on the planet and come up short, only because of money; their fan base will riot if, on Friday afternoon, we learn that the deal fell through because of dollars.

Greenberg is in an incredible position of power this morning. He can throw the Mets a little financial bone. Tell you what, guys. We'll come down to $24 million a year. But nothing more than that. Because my client has two Cy Young Awards and he would be perfect for your team and your city and your league. And next fall, if my client becomes a free agent, the boys in the Bronx will be sitting there, poised to offer him a HUGE deal. Everybody now knows Hank Steinbrenner loves him. The Yankees have a bunch of contracts coming off their payroll in the fall: Jason Giambi, Mike Mussina, Andy Pettitte, etc. I'm asking for six years and $25 million now, but I might get more than that from the Yankees in the fall, especially if they don't make the playoffs in 2008.



That scenario is a little frightening, isn't it? You guys get to the 1-yard line in this process but don't finish the deal over dollars, and then he becomes a Yankee in 10 months. Ouch. No, we'll sit on our asking price.

The Mets will blink. They have to blink.

Santana is expected to get a six-year deal for something in the range of $130 million, writes La Velle Neal. Economics should not kill this deal, writes Murray Chass.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In the end, the Twins wound up taking what was probably the fourth-best offer they saw during this process, after not jumping at deals built around Jon Lester, Jacoby Ellsbury and Phil Hughes along the way. We can sit here, as Monday morning quarterbacks, and say they could've gotten more.

But of course, it was a lot more complicated than that along the way. The end line was a moving target, and if you were sitting in the seat of new Twins GM Bill Smith, there was a lot of reason to think the Yankees might jump back into the mix with both feet, considering how outspoken Hank Steinbrenner was about wanting Santana. And if the Yankees had stayed in play, the Red Sox would've continued to nudge their offers up a little (not much, though), and the Mets' package -- which, in early January, the Twins' evaluators regarded as being vastly inferior to what they wanted to get from the Yankees or Boston. Smith waited, hoping for what was a brutal situation to turn his way, and it did not.

Oakland got more for Dan Haren, and the Orioles -- who are addressing a technicality that has popped up in the proposed Erik Bedard deal and will probably soon reach the point where they give Adam Jones and others physicals -- will get a better deal for their pitchers. But comparing the Haren and Bedard trades to the Santana situation is an apples-and-oranges deal. The offers for Santana were diminished greatly by Santana's impending free agency, and the fact that he was in position to demand the largest contract in the history of pitching (see above). If Santana was still three years away from free agency, the Yankees probably would've offered Hughes, Kennedy and some of the best horses on Steinbrenner's farm, because of the relative cost.

Could Smith have made better deals earlier in the process? No question. But to say he made a mistake, another GM mused late Tuesday night, "you would have to be completely ignorant of the process, and how this played out. Anyone who says that doesn't know what he's talking about."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Something else to consider: Always assume that the folks involved in making a trade usually have more information at their disposal than we have. And the Twins' push to finish this deal now, rather than opting to keep Santana, raised the eyebrows of many of Smith's baseball brethren. "They've obviously made the decision they have to get him out of there before spring training starts," said another GM, "and you have to ask yourself: Why?"

I wrote here earlier this month that evaluators from four different teams saw the same signs of regression in Santana in his last seven starts at the end of last season: diminished velocity, an unwillingness to throw his slider. Two of the evaluators had concerns about this and wondered if Santana was completely healthy, and two did not, chalking the regression to the lack of late-season adrenaline on a Twins team that wasn't in the race.

"The Twins are going to know him better than anybody," an evaluator in the AL said Tuesday night. "It's not that they think he's hurt, but maybe they're seeing signs [of decline] in him, and figure it's better to make the move now."

A clear option would've been for the Twins to hang onto Santana and try to win in '08. "But there was a reason why they made the decision to move him now," the evaluator said. "They're smart people over there. It makes you think …"

Keeping him wasn't an option for the Twins, writes Jim Souhan. Smith misread this situation, writes Ken Davidoff.

The deal leaves the Twins young and unsettled, writes Phil Miller. The Twins have been prepared for this to happen, Mike Redmond tells Kelly Thesier.

There isn't a can't-miss guy contained within the Mets' entire package, writes Ben Shpigel.

Brian Cashman has put his neck on the line by not finishing this deal, writes John Harper. There is no question that this situation will either make or break Cashman at a time his contract is set to expire on Oct. 31: If the Yankees make the playoffs again without having traded the prospects and spent the money, or if Santana breaks down this season, then Cashman will look brilliant to his bosses (Steinbrenner, in particular). But if the Yankees don't make the playoffs for the first time since 1993, and the Mets do make the playoffs, well, this may turn out to be the non-move that nudges him out the door, because Steinbrenner is on the record for favoring the move.

The Yankees helped the Mets in this situation, writes Bob Klapisch, who says the Twins called the Yankees late Monday and offered Santana for Ian Kennedy and Melky Cabrera and others, only to be told no.

Give the Mets credit for staying in the game, writes Dan Graziano, who writes that this is the luckiest the Mets have been since the night of the Bill Buckner play. The Mets knocked the Giants off the back page, writes Mike Lupica. The Mets have become the team to beat in the NL East with this trade, writes Joel Sherman.

The outcome of this isn't the worst thing that could've happened for the Red Sox, says Tom Werner. The Red Sox sort of won the Santana negotiations, writes Joe McDonald. The pressure is now on Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy to be good, writes Michael Silverman.

• David Wright is fired up to get Santana.

• The Phillies have been aced out in this situation, writes Jim Salisbury.

With Pedro Feliz in the fold, it looks like the Phillies may look to move Wes Helms, writes Paul Hagen. The Giants continue to look around for third basemen.


ESPN colleague Willie Weinbaum attended Tuesday's BAT dinner, and generated these notes:


Nice cocktail party scene of former football Giants GM Ernie Accorsi, before leaving for the Super Bowl, getting Dr. Bobby Brown's autograph and marveling at the great feeling of having revered him as a boy and now approaching him for an autograph many, many years later.

A beaming Mets braintrust, led by Owner Jeff Wilpon and GM Omar Minaya, was in attendance amid the Santana trade frenzy as David Wright received the Bart Giamatti Award for Community Service and gave a thoughtful and humble acceptance speech.

Former minor leaguer Scott Hodges poignantly recounted the help BAT provided as he battled cancer. BAT chairman Bobby Murcer, who vowed from afar a year ago to beat brain cancer, made a triumphant return to the dais.

As the 1968 Tigers and Cardinals were celebrated, Denny McLain's wisecracks -- including shots at the unruly hairdo of "Big B.A.T./Frank Slocum Award" recipient Dmitri Young -- and the camaraderie and witty reminiscences of Bob Gibson, Orlando Cepeda, Tim McCarver and Mike Shannon stole the show.



• With the Bedard deal on hold, other teams have checked in to inquire about a deal with the Orioles, writes Jeff Zrebiec.

• The Santana deal could put the spurs to the Bedard-Mariners talks, writes John Hickey, who also addresses a report, within this story, that Adam Jones might have a hip situation affecting this proposed deal. The Mariners need more than Bedard, writes Art Thiel.

• Scott Podsednik is looking for work with the Rockies, writes Tracy Ringolsby.

• Joe Beimel's arbitration date has been set.

• The Giants are leaping into a new era, writes John Ryan.

• Turns out the Milwaukee stadium tax may not be retired, as expected, writes Don Walker. The Brewers worked out contracts with a couple of youngsters.

• The Nats agreed to terms with Johnny Estrada, at a time when Paul Lo Duca's situation seems to be unclear.

• Damaso Marte has a sore neck after being in a car accident, writes Dejan Kovacevic. The Pirates are considering signing Paul Bako.

• The Pirates are upgrading their teaching and development. Bob Smizik wonders if the Pirates are selling false hope, if it is not accompanied by winning.

The Pirates have a sinking feeling again, writes Rick Hummel.

• The Astros signed a couple of veterans.

• A healthy Ryan Shealy could boost the Royals, writes Jeffrey Flanagan.

• It's out of necessity that the Rangers' bid to land Nolan Ryan is pitcher perfect, writes Jim Reeves.

• Brandon Inge is bitter, writes Jon Paul Morosi.

• A deal with Alex Rios could push the Jays into the $100 million club.

• The Mariners' Brodie Downs is a long shot you have to root for, writes Steve Kelley.

• Reds fans are not thrilled about the team's move to the desert, writes Hal McCoy.

• As long as Rafael Soriano is OK, the Braves' bullpen should be OK, writes Carroll Rogers.

• The mayor of Miami defended the city's stadium plan for the Marlins, writes Barry Jackson.

• Andrew Miller is out to make an impression, writes Joe Capozzi.

• The Cubs will play in the final Hall of Fame game. Mike Imrem feels sorry for the Cubs, in light of the rare AL-to-NL transfer of talent with the Santana deal.

• Vanderbilt has been its own worst enemy, says the Commodores' coach. Can't disagree.

PED ZONE
• Andy Pettitte will tell investigators that he talked with Brian McNamee about Roger Clemens' alleged use of performance-enhancing drugs, the lawyers for McNamee tell the New York Times.

• The more J.C. Bradbury looks at the numbers presented by Clemens's agent, the more he's convinced that McNamee is lying.

Clemens's latest pitch won't pay off, writes Tom Knott.

• Koby Clemens stands by his dad.

I thought you were going to tell us that the Twins got over, since they got five no-names for one proven All Star...?

Rob Kamphausen Administrator cobra kai
15000+ posts 01/31/08 02:52 AM Reading a post
Forum: Sports and Wrestling
Thread: Johan Santana going to the Mets

no, the twins would have actually made out tremendously in a yankee deal though, with 4 "low"-names for one proven all star. ...and to a remarkable degree.

the twins were in the driver's seat, and could have really made something nice out of this. the mets offer to the twins was probably 5th best. it was a bad decision.

But they still got 5 no-name, unproved prospects for one established All Star starting pitcher.

Those deals are always fair for the team who can't afford ERRRRRRRRRRRR doesn't want to keep the proven star, remember?

is this a real argument or a "imma take similar words and reuse them, then post that he was online in this thread" argument?

Hang on...

Rob Kamphausen Administrator cobra kai
15000+ posts 01/31/08 03:01 AM Reading a post
Forum: Sports and Wrestling
Thread: Johan Santana going to the Mets

There we go!

Really though, you seem to be backing off from you old stance that these deals are fair for everyone involved (i.e. the system isn't broken, etc)...

Rob Kamphausen Administrator cobra kai
15000+ posts 01/31/08 03:04 AM Reading a post
Forum: Sports and Wrestling
Thread: Johan Santana going to the Mets

That's enough...FOR NOW!

the system isn't broken in that the twins could have made a great deal out of this. that is, they had the ability and the opportunity. they just ... didn't. i honestly have no idea why they made the deal with the mets, or why they made the deal with the mets now. it seems like a terrible move, and one they were not, at all, forced to make.

the biggest point of contention: the offer the red sox and yankees made were both better, and both rejected by the twins. i.e; the twins turned down at least two better deals than the one they made. yes, what the twins were looking to get out of both teams was even better, but what they could have gotten would have been a really good trade (and one, as a yankees fan, i would have regretted)

but it seems the twins hit the panic button and made this deal with the mets. ...and what i was saying earlier in the thread was that time was actually in their favor.

with spring training coming up, players were now back in the situation where they could get hurt and/or teams could be publically evaluated. maybe, for example, andy pettitte hurt his elbow and would be out for 2 months. all of a sudden, the yankees are in huge trouble, and have to make a deal. or maybe everything with the yankees was looking great, and boston started to get nervous, so they'd up their ante. or someone else could have realized an ace'd just be so nice to have right now to compete with whomever.

there was so much opportunity for the twins here

Forget all that "could have, should have" stuff.

The Twins got 5 no-namers for one All Star pitcher.

They got over, and benefitted from the current payroll disparity system, right?

no. they passed on the chances to do that. then they forfeited additional possibilities of that happening.

they made a bum deal when they didn't have to.

go to hell yankees!

southerner!

5 minor leaguers for 1 All Star starting pitcher deal is a bad one?

please reference every previous post. specifically in this thread, but also in every other thread.

I don't see that you are answering the question.

The trade that was made...not trades that the Twins could have made, should made, or any of that.

Did they get a good return on what they gave up?

those questions, the one you want answered and the one you don't want answered, are both addressed several times in this thread, most recently in the last post of mine you quoted. so if you're not reading my posts, and i wouldn't entirely fault you for that, you should at least be reading your own.

i'll recap for you.





to clearly translate, the twins did not get a good return on what they gave up. they made a bad move and a poor trade.

it was especially poor in that they had several better offers on the table that they rejected. so not only did they make a bad move in the singular terms of the mets trade, they made a bad move by picking this avenue over more beneficial ones.

Gotcha.

It read like you were calling it a bad trade by compairing it to what it could have been, and not a bad trade on its own merits.

This does seem to be a departure from your "signing a big name FA doesn't mean anything, since such and such team could have signed extra minor leaguers with that money" approach...

"so if you're not reading my posts, and i wouldn't entirely fault you for that, you should at least be reading your own."

The claws are out!

in this regard, i'll agree that it sounds like a departure, but only because the players the twins are getting from the mets are ... not... anything. not only are they not established, they're not even prospects. it was like literally signing 4 random minor leaguers. my colleague is a die-hard mets fan and never even heard of two of them. it was a really, really, really bad deal.

but the overall argument i hold to, and i'll use the potential yankee trade as an example.

the twins wanted 4 youngsters from the yankees in exchange for santana. relatively unproven prospects with little-to-no big-level experience, and a community salary of about 1 mil. yanks were willing to offer 2, and later 3 of these players. the two teams couldn't agree to final terms. team steinbrenner made a "final" offer in november. and in december. and in january.

twins pass on the yankees best offer, the three players, which was of significantly higher quality than what the mets offered.

had that deal gone through, i would have been pissed. whether it was the 4 youngsters, the 3, or the deal for only 2. i would have felt it was a poor trade on the yankees behalf.

yanks are famous for giving away an entire farm system for a "big name" only to find out that big name never lives up to any of the hype. you've joked about... geez... a dozen? two? but the ramifications are so much more severe, as this does a few levels of devastation:

1) yanks are out major money
2) yanks have no farm system to replenish vets
3) yanks have no farm system to offer in better deals
4) yanks lose any established "team/chemistry" aspects by bringing in the egoey hired gun.

i know your counter argument is "well, they're getting superstarX in return" and its certainly a valid point to some extent. but, as a yankee fan, i can't understate how much more i'd rather not have that player.

those are a lot of the aspects that i truly, truly hate about the yankees, and why i always hold to the argument you quoted.

the guys the yankees were offering are not superstars. yet. they're merely bundles of potential. but i value you that so much more than a guy like santana for any number of reasons.

that trade would have been tremendous for the twins, and they had every opportunity to make it which, in my mind, put them in total control over the situation.

MisterJLA is quite the populist sports fan, I see.

If the contract Santana received is indicative of what he wanted and/or was expecting, then the Twins made the right move. That’s a lot of money and a lot of service time to commit to a pitcher about to turn 29. Santana is not likely to be much of a bargain when he’s 35 and making close to $25 million. However, the move to the NL and a pitcher-friendly stadium should benefit Johan in the short term, and the trade really comes down to that: the Twins are a young, burgeoning team, built for the future. In the present, even with him on their roster, they were ostensibly still a few pieces away from being a contender. Meanwhile. the Mets are, on paper, one of baseball’s elite, and as an aging team with a lot of payroll already locked into the next few seasons, they were pretty desperate for something to put them over the edge.

So, the decision to trade him was the smart move for both. Minnesota wasn’t going to pay him, and from a value standpoint, they shouldn’t have. At least by trading him they can get something in return.

Now, the package they ended up with was certainly not the best one that was reportedly offered to them, and that is where the failing of Minnesota’s front office lies.

The Yankees should also share a bit of this blunder, assuming Minnesota ever truly considered trading Santana to an AL team. They could have more than matched the Mets offer without including Hughes or Chamberlain. Their attachment to Melky Cabrera is puzzling, in this case.

Anyway, it’s hard to argue that this transaction isn’t good for baseball. The Mets are a high profile team and Santana’s mere presence should create a lot of revenue, for everyone. Personally, as a new Queens resident I am very excited about the prospect of seeing him pitch(lament as I do the day the Astros left him unprotected for the rule five draft). He’s in an ideal situation to thrive, both individually and collectively with the Mets. Great players should be on winning teams.

Although, I must say, regardless of how it will affect the outcome of the World Series, the contract has potentially dire consequences on the free agent pitching market(already a pretty barren landscape) over the next few years.

Melky is turning into one of the best defensive centerfielders in the game.

He also had a .391 slugging percentage, and of the 32 major league centerfielders that recorded at least 300 at bats last year, he ranked 23rd in OPS. With similarly light-hitting Damon and Abreu at the corners, they're not getting much help to even that out.

I know but the hitting can be taught sometimes......the defense is either there or it's not most times.

most hispanic pitchers start to burn out at 31, the mets are dead in the water.

Yeah I was never too interested in getting him. I think he will start to decline as soon as this year.

Animalman User 10000+ posts 07/31/08 10:24 PM Reading a post
Forum: Sports and Wrestling
Thread: Johan Santana going to the Mets

Rob Kamphausen Administrator cobra kai
15000+ posts 07/31/08 10:29 PM Reading a post
Forum: Sports and Wrestling
Thread: Johan Santana going to the Mets

i remember reading this!