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Here it is from Lying in the Gutters
...........................................
One of the more common rumours doing the rounds over the last fortnight is that John Byrne is doing a Green Lantern project - and so is Grant Morrison.
It transpires that Grant Morrison is writing an arc for the main series, reintroducing Hal Jordan as Earth's Green Lantern, before Geoff Johns takes over the title with Carlos Pacheco. I understand that Morrison has been given the whole of the Green Lantern Corps to play with, save one. And that John Byrne's Green Lantern series will involve John Stewart.
More to come on this one, I'm sure.
.................................................
Say it's the truth and that marz is writing Kyle Rayner's exit..It will be happy, happy fans most everywhere except the 20,000 (?) rabid Kyle fans of course..
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quote:
Originally posted by Pig Iron:
It transpires that Grant Morrison is writing an arc for the main series, reintroducing Hal Jordan as Earth's Green Lantern, before Geoff Johns takes over the title with Carlos Pacheco.
Say it's the truth and that marz is writing Kyle Rayner's exit..
....I don't know how to feel about this.
I like Morrison. I like Johns. I love Pacheco.
But, I also like Kyle, and wish they would send Hal to his final rest...
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That last bit was mine not Rich's....
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I assumed so since you didn't capitalize Marz's name. ![[nyah hah]](images/icons/tongue.gif) Not that it deserves capitalization.... Pro, how could you like Kyle?!?!? I will purchase a copy of the last issue, so that I may burn it and urinate on the ashes. A fitting end.
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We've been talkin' about this over on the GLMB and here's what Moose Bauman,the colorist for GL had to say.....
I talked to Pete Tomasi about an hour ago about this. His response was:
"Ha ha ha ha ha!"
Make of that what you will.
Also, I have an impecable source who told me what Byrne's next project is, and GL/John Stewart/GLC was never mentioned.
Finally... Isn't Arrowsmith an ongoing series? I know they're planning a number of specials and one-shots down the road, too. I get the feeling that Carlos Pacheco might have his hands full already.
MOOSE!!!
Make of that what you will.
Personally,I'm not gettin' excited until I see something "official" from DC.
I've been a GL fan for too long to fall for stuff like this.
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Supposedly Arrowsmith part 2 is next up after Pacheco does his Superman/Batman arc. His arc is, of course, due about the same time as this Green Lantern run should be hitting shelves. DC has shifted talent around before. Especially since people really, really liked Ivan Reis' work on the Secret files issue. John Byrne loves Green Lantern almost as much as the Doom Patrol. I'm sure he would chuck whatever he was doing to do a GL series or mini instead.
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quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
I assumed so since you didn't capitalize Marz's name.
Not that it deserves capitalization....
Nitpicker....
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quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Pro, how could you like Kyle?!?!?
Very easily, actually. Not implying anything towards you in any way, but, I am one of those guys that likes progressive change. I don't live my fantasies out through my favorite comic character. I'm not personally attached to them. Or, even, demand that my favorite childhood characters never change or grow. I enjoy comics for entertainment value and on artistic merit.
When Hal went nuts and slaughtered the Corp., I was ecstatic. Not because I hate Jordan, or worship Marz, or anything, but, simply, because it was one of the most shocking, bold moves ever made with a franchise character. Like CRISIS, you didn't know what to expect, and you had no idea who was going to live and die.
Did I like the death of Kilowag? Hell no. But, emotional sacrifice has to be made for real change to occur.
Did I like the way Kyle was written in his own book? At first, yes. But, then, it became so bogged down and dreary that I abandoned the series itself. Instead, I focused on Kyle in Morrison's JLA, loving every minute of seeing a rookie Corp member.
I can like Kyle very easily. But, someone's going to have to work to get me to like a returned-from-the-Spectre-grave Hal. I think Hal, like Barry, deserves his honorable rest. I think it's an insult to the legacy of the character to have him rung through the muck and grinding whim of obsessive fanboy mentality, by having him brought back to life.
Just my opinion, mind you. :)
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quote:
Originally posted by Prometheus:
Very easily, actually. Not implying anything towards you in any way, but, I am one of those guys that likes progressive change. I don't live my fantasies out through my favorite comic character. I'm not personally attached to them. Or, even, demand that my favorite childhood characters never change or grow. I enjoy comics for entertainment value and on artistic merit.
When Hal went nuts and slaughtered the Corp., I was ecstatic. Not because I hate Jordan, or worship Marz, or anything, but, simply, because it was one of the most shocking, bold moves ever made with a franchise character. Like CRISIS, you didn't know what to expect, and you had no idea who was going to live and die.
Did I like the death of Kilowag? Hell no. But, emotional sacrifice has to be made for real change to occur.
Did I like the way Kyle was written in his own book? At first, yes. But, then, it became so bogged down and dreary that I abandoned the series itself. Instead, I focused on Kyle in Morrison's JLA, loving every minute of seeing a rookie Corp member.
I can like Kyle very easily. But, someone's going to have to work to get me to like a returned-from-the-Spectre-grave Hal. I think Hal, like Barry, deserves his honorable rest. I think it's an insult to the legacy of the character to have him rung through the muck and grinding whim of obsessive fanboy mentality, by having him brought back to life.
Just my opinion, mind you. :)
Thank you for saying it in a much better way than I ever could.
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quote:
Originally posted by Prometheus:
quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Pro, how could you like Kyle?!?!?
Very easily, actually. Not implying anything towards you in any way, but, I am one of those guys that likes progressive change. I don't live my fantasies out through my favorite comic character. I'm not personally attached to them. Or, even, demand that my favorite childhood characters never change or grow. I enjoy comics for entertainment value and on artistic merit.
When Hal went nuts and slaughtered the Corp., I was ecstatic. Not because I hate Jordan, or worship Marz, or anything, but, simply, because it was one of the most shocking, bold moves ever made with a franchise character. Like CRISIS, you didn't know what to expect, and you had no idea who was going to live and die.
Did I like the death of Kilowag? Hell no. But, emotional sacrifice has to be made for real change to occur.
Did I like the way Kyle was written in his own book? At first, yes. But, then, it became so bogged down and dreary that I abandoned the series itself. Instead, I focused on Kyle in Morrison's JLA, loving every minute of seeing a rookie Corp member.
I can like Kyle very easily. But, someone's going to have to work to get me to like a returned-from-the-Spectre-grave Hal. I think Hal, like Barry, deserves his honorable rest. I think it's an insult to the legacy of the character to have him rung through the muck and grinding whim of obsessive fanboy mentality, by having him brought back to life.
Just my opinion, mind you. :)
Thing is Hal isn't really gone like Barry. He never was. His essence just exists on a different plane of reality as The Spectre. It's just a matter of bringing his essence back to the mortal plane physically or cosmically.
BTW, You say "I don't live my fantasies out through my favorite comic character. I'm not personally attached to them. Or, even, demand that my favorite childhood characters never change or grow. I enjoy comics for entertainment value and on artistic merit." But Kyle Rayner was created for just that purpose. Kyle's whole purpose was to make GL more "relatable" to teens and 20 somethings (though it didn't work on me, and I was 15 then) Maybe it's 'cause I have my own sex life and couldn't care less about Kyle's. Maybe it's 'cause I'm not a struggling artist. Or maybe it's because I hate latte's. I don't know.... but what I do know is, after 10 years of Kyle it's time for a "progressive change".
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc.Mid-Nite:
Thing is Hal isn't really gone like Barry. He never was. His essence just exists on a different plane of reality as The Spectre. It's just a matter of bringing his essence back to the mortal plane physically or cosmically.
That's not a "thing". That's a tragedy. Hal Jordan deserves a final death, just like Barry.
BTW, You say "I don't live my fantasies out through my favorite comic character. I'm not personally attached to them. Or, even, demand that my favorite childhood characters never change or grow. I enjoy comics for entertainment value and on artistic merit." But Kyle Rayner was created for just that purpose. Kyle's whole purpose was to make GL more "relatable" to teens and 20 somethings
And Superman was created to elevate the common man during the Depression Era. However, since I'm not a Depression Era kid, I percieve Superman for something other than his original intended purpose. Same thing with Kyle. And "relatable" doesn't neccessarily mean "fanboy-fantasy-outlet".
(though it didn't work on me, and I was 15 then) Maybe it's 'cause I have my own sex life and couldn't care less about Kyle's. Maybe it's 'cause I'm not a struggling artist. Or maybe it's because I hate latte's.
Glad to hear it.
I don't know.... but what I do know is, after 10 years of Kyle it's time for a "progressive change".
Perhaps. But, wouldn't bringing back a pre-existing character only serve as "regressive change"?
IMO, If they are going to remove Kyle, then they should create a new character, and move on.
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quote:
Originally posted by Prometheus:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc.Mid-Nite:
Thing is Hal isn't really gone like Barry. He never was. His essence just exists on a different plane of reality as The Spectre. It's just a matter of bringing his essence back to the mortal plane physically or cosmically.
That's not a "thing". That's a tragedy. Hal Jordan deserves a final death, just like Barry.
BTW, You say "I don't live my fantasies out through my favorite comic character. I'm not personally attached to them. Or, even, demand that my favorite childhood characters never change or grow. I enjoy comics for entertainment value and on artistic merit." But Kyle Rayner was created for just that purpose. Kyle's whole purpose was to make GL more "relatable" to teens and 20 somethings
And Superman was created to elevate the common man during the Depression Era. However, since I'm not a Depression Era kid, I percieve Superman for something other than his original intended purpose. Same thing with Kyle. And "relatable" doesn't neccessarily mean "fanboy-fantasy-outlet".
(though it didn't work on me, and I was 15 then) Maybe it's 'cause I have my own sex life and couldn't care less about Kyle's. Maybe it's 'cause I'm not a struggling artist. Or maybe it's because I hate latte's.
Glad to hear it.
I don't know.... but what I do know is, after 10 years of Kyle it's time for a "progressive change".
Perhaps. But, wouldn't bringing back a pre-existing character only serve as "regressive change"?
IMO, If they are going to remove Kyle, then they should create a new character, and move on.
But it's more part of a "rebuilding change" , rebuilding the remaining pieces from the "Kyle Rayner" experiment. IMO, replacing Hal Jordan and Jim Corrigan was like replacing Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent. Instead of letting Hal "grow" as a character post crisis they killed him off and replaced him. And they didn't even kill him off respectfully the way they did the Flash or Jim Corrigan. He was totally out of character when they made him "snap".
But now they're going back to what GL's all about... quality sci-fi action, the Corps, its history, and the Guardians. Hopefully Hal Jordan isn't too far behind in my opinion.
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I like Hal and Kyle .......probably giving Hal the edge. There is a place for all of them in the Green Lantern Mythos......BRING BACK HAL.........oh and keep John Stewart around too.
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quote:
Originally posted by Prometheus:
I am one of those guys that likes progressive change.
Sure, me too. I just don't equate Kyle with "progressive change". Infact, I consider the two to be very, very different.
quote:
I don't live my fantasies out through my favorite comic character. I'm not personally attached to them. Or, even, demand that my favorite childhood characters never change or grow. I enjoy comics for entertainment value and on artistic merit.
But, you see, this is why comics were created in the first place. Infact, this is why fiction of any kind was created. Most writers want you to care about the characters. Otherwise the stories themselves have no significance, no meaning, no value. Otherwise, readers won't come back month after month to see what happens next.
It's certainly a popular stance to take on the matter, to look down on "fanboys" and ridicule them for caring about a fictional character. I don't see why. A big part of enjoying such works is having some kind of emotional stock in what happens.
quote:
I think Hal, like Barry, deserves his honorable rest. I think it's an insult to the legacy of the character to have him rung through the muck and grinding whim of obsessive fanboy mentality, by having him brought back to life.
This I agree with. I think the character should just be retired(figuratively, not literally). I just want Kyle, and any memory of that era, gone forever.
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quote:
But, someone's going to have to work to get me to like a returned-from-the-Spectre-grave Hal. I think Hal, like Barry, deserves his honorable rest. I think it's an insult to the legacy of the character to have him rung through the muck and grinding whim of obsessive fanboy mentality, by having him brought back to life.
It seems to me that only someone who actually, really appreciated and respected the Hal Jordan character can wish him to be laid to a final rest, like Barry Allen.
I grew up reading the adventures of Hal Jordan as Green Lantern. I had my own little home-made cardboard power ring as a little kid. How can someone who respects the character want to see him as a ghost, or improbably brought back to life? Let the character rest in peace, and have a hero's death.
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Ditto.
And a resounding DITTO! to everything Pro said...
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I'm with Pro on this. You can't just forget all that Hal has done in the past. This is exactly why Jim Shooter ordered the death of Jean Grey in Uncanny X-Men #137. And to bring back Hal would undermine the 10 plus years of work that has gone into building Kyle Rayners character.
What DC's problem is, is that they allow Hal-loving writers to continue use the character, thus undermining Kyle's base. They need to have a writer who embraces Kyle's character and IMO the only writer who's done that is Morrision on his JLA run. Even though Marz primarily has written Kyle's run, he has been on record that he didn't really agree with the demise of Hal.
My fave Kyle moment was when Kyle met Daniel in the Dreaming in JLA and Daniel told him he'd be the best GL ever, even better than Hal. When Kyle asked how could that be when he wasn't without fear like Hal, Daniel told him that was exactly why.
I am so dissapointed that the GL editors have never capitalized on that moment.
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
quote:
But, someone's going to have to work to get me to like a returned-from-the-Spectre-grave Hal. I think Hal, like Barry, deserves his honorable rest. I think it's an insult to the legacy of the character to have him rung through the muck and grinding whim of obsessive fanboy mentality, by having him brought back to life.
It seems to me that only someone who actually, really appreciated and respected the Hal Jordan character can wish him to be laid to a final rest, like Barry Allen.
I grew up reading the adventures of Hal Jordan as Green Lantern. I had my own little home-made cardboard power ring as a little kid. How can someone who respects the character want to see him as a ghost, or improbably brought back to life? Let the character rest in peace, and have a hero's death.
But Hal was improbally killed and didn't die an honourable death. How does Hal Jordan (a skilled veteran hero with immeasurable willpower who's probably seen worse) "snap"? It just doesn't make sense, IMO. BTW, a guy with a magic ring, flying around in tights, dying and being "reborn" is already pretty improbable as it is. That's what you get when dealing with the Spectre and Green Lantern, so bringing Hal back that way doesn't bother me at all. It didn't when Hector Hall was brought back through reincarnation to be the new Dr.Fate, it didn't bother me when I learned the original Spectre was the spirit of Jim Corrigan brought back to life, nor does it bother me that Ra's Al Ghul is resurrected from the dead every once in a while. These are after all comic books.
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc.Mid-Nite:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
quote:
But, someone's going to have to work to get me to like a returned-from-the-Spectre-grave Hal. I think Hal, like Barry, deserves his honorable rest. I think it's an insult to the legacy of the character to have him rung through the muck and grinding whim of obsessive fanboy mentality, by having him brought back to life.
It seems to me that only someone who actually, really appreciated and respected the Hal Jordan character can wish him to be laid to a final rest, like Barry Allen.
I grew up reading the adventures of Hal Jordan as Green Lantern. I had my own little home-made cardboard power ring as a little kid. How can someone who respects the character want to see him as a ghost, or improbably brought back to life? Let the character rest in peace, and have a hero's death.
But Hal was improbally killed and didn't die an honourable death. How does Hal Jordan (a skilled veteran hero with immeasurable willpower who's probably seen worse) "snap"? It just doesn't make sense, IMO. BTW, a guy with a magic ring, flying around in tights, dying and being "reborn" is already pretty improbable as it is. That's what you get when dealing with the Spectre and Green Lantern, so bringing Hal back that way doesn't bother me at all. It didn't when Hector Hall was brought back through reincarnation to be the new Dr.Fate, it didn't bother me when I learned the original Spectre was the spirit of Jim Corrigan brought back to life, nor does it bother me that Ra's Al Ghul is resurrected from the dead every once in a while. These are after all comic books.
Sure they're comic books. But for many people they have provided a code of conduct at a young and impressionable age: an alternative to the moral codes of Duke Nukem or Eminem.
I dislike superheroes now, but Green Lantern's interstellar peacekeeping role was a compass for me as a kid. The character was hardly a Gandhi or a MLK, but he was a decent enough role model for a geeky 12 year old. As an adult, I didn't read the issue where he died reigniting the sun, despite his new evil impulses, but it seems like a fitting death to me. The teenager deep in my guts nods approvingly of this.
Bringing back the character would not do service to my memory of it, nor, it seems, to the memory of many others.
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You (Dave) haven't read Final Night yet? Weird. I think it's the kind of superhero story that you'll like.
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quote:
Originally posted by Prometheus:
Superman was created to elevate the common man during the Depression Era. However, since I'm not a Depression Era kid, I percieve Superman for something other than his original intended purpose. And "relatable" doesn't neccessarily mean "fanboy-fantasy-outlet".
Every story I have ever heard about the creation of Superman was that he was created to a "fantasy outlet" for two sci-fi/pulp fiction fanboys from Cleveland...who just happened to be his creators.
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quote:
Originally posted by Prometheus:
Superman was created to elevate the common man during the Depression Era. However, since I'm not a Depression Era kid, I percieve Superman for something other than his original intended purpose. And "relatable" doesn't neccessarily mean "fanboy-fantasy-outlet".
Every story I have ever heard about the creation of Superman was that he was created to a "fantasy outlet" for two sci-fi/pulp fiction fanboys from Cleveland...who just happened to be his creators.
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc.Mid-Nite:
But Hal was improbally killed and didn't die an honourable death.
Re-Igniting the Sun, so that the Sol system (2814?)...his assigned sector of protection and patrol...might live on? Sounds pretty fitting and honourable to me.
How does Hal Jordan (a skilled veteran hero with immeasurable willpower who's probably seen worse) "snap"?
Well, according to legitimate comic book history, Hal Jordan:
A) Had two nervous breakdowns, both sending him on a spiral of self-loathing and identity crisis.
B) Was written for MANY years as an insecure miagma of doubt (due to never making it work with Carol, finding his way in life, etc.)
C) Had a drinking problem (EMERALD DAWN)
These are the facts that I find are most ignored when someone is arguing against EMERALD TWILIGHT. This is comic book history. If you are to accept the character, accept the whole picture, and realize that, for someone of Jordan's already fragile psyche, the destruction of Coast City coming only a few years after the death of Barry, was the final straw. To me, it seemed only natural that he would lose it.
quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
But, you see, this is why comics were created in the first place. Infact, this is why fiction of any kind was created.
Actually, if you want to truly trace it, fiction was created to enlighten or entertain (the song of Bards, the mythological stories of the Greek and Romans, tribal stories told around the campfire, etc.).
Most writers want you to care about the characters. Otherwise the stories themselves have no significance, no meaning, no value.
Caring for a character, and living out fantasies through a character, are two different things.
Otherwise, readers won't come back month after month to see what happens next.
If there is a significantly exciting 'hook' in the end of the issue, then most any reader would come back for the next issue.
It's certainly a popular stance to take on the matter, to look down on "fanboys" and ridicule them for caring about a fictional character. I don't see why.
I hope you didn't take anything I said personally. And, I don't remember "ridiculing" anyone. When I use the term "fanboy", it is used to describe those so overly obsessive about the intricate details of their favorite character, and their negative stranglehold against any real change.
I love JLAvengers right now. It is the most "fanboyish" thing I can readily say that I'm into. However, I'm a fanboy for it because it's just a nice, small reminder of my childhood. Small, short, and sweet, if it was ever stretched out into something continuous, it would lose its natural charm on me. My childhood is gone. The Pre-Crisis and Silver Age is history, now. And, I, for one, refuse to be in the close-minded minority of demanding that my childhood memories take precedence over exciting and progressive change.
A big part of enjoying such works is having some kind of emotional stock in what happens.
Again, "emotional stock", and, outright vehement opposition to evolution, are two different things.
Again, these are just my opinions.
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quote:
Originally posted by the G-man:
Every story I have ever heard about the creation of Superman was that he was created to a "fantasy outlet" for two sci-fi/pulp fiction fanboys from Cleveland...who just happened to be his creators.
Interesting. Every story I have heard has it that the two fanboys from Cleveland just wanted to sale a story to make some much needed cash to eat. They got lucky, and the birth of Superheroes began.
But, you make my point for me. Whether Superman was supposed to be a fantasy outlet during the Depression doesn't really matter. It's how he is taken, used, or, percieved as a character. I, for one, cannot lift a car. Nor can I fly. Thus, since that is the case, I could not possibly live out my fantasies through such a fictional character, as I cannot truly relate to that character. Therefore, I take him for something other than his intended purpose. My original point.
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quote:
Originally posted by Prometheus:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc.Mid-Nite:
But Hal was improbally killed and didn't die an honourable death.
Re-Igniting the Sun, so that the Sol system (2814?)...his assigned sector of protection and patrol...might live on? Sounds pretty fitting and honourable to me.
Most definitely so.
How does Hal Jordan (a skilled veteran hero with immeasurable willpower who's probably seen worse) "snap"?
Well, according to legitimate comic book history, Hal Jordan:
A) Had two nervous breakdowns, both sending him on a spiral of self-loathing and identity crisis.
B) Was written for MANY years as an insecure miagma of doubt (due to never making it work with Carol, finding his way in life, etc.)
C) Had a drinking problem (EMERALD DAWN)
These are the facts that I find are most ignored when someone is arguing against EMERALD TWILIGHT. This is comic book history. If you are to accept the character, accept the whole picture, and realize that, for someone of Jordan's already fragile psyche, the destruction of Coast City coming only a few years after the death of Barry, was the final straw. To me, it seemed only natural that he would lose it.
This is, in fact, the biggest and most compelling argument FOR Emerald Twilight that I've heard. And strangely, I've never heard it from anyone AT DC. It was a good idea, poorly executed.
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Posted by jafabian: They need to have a writer who embraces Kyle's character and IMO the only writer who's done that is Morrision on his JLA run.
Exactly. During Morrison's run Kyle's character goes through a very defined arc: from awestruck newbie in New World Order to competent and fully functional member by World War Three.
Marz, on the other hand, continued to write stories where Kyle was either conned out of his ring, went to older heroes for help on being a hero, or some other variation along those lines. Kyle never progressed or developed very far.
The one thing I did like that Marz did was bring Alan Scott back into the fold and allow him to have a "mentor" relationship with Kyle. Something that Alan and Hal never had. DC's attempts to retroactively create one for them have always felt forced and hollow, imo. Alan and Hal were not Jay and Barry, and they shouldn't be.
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quote:
Originally posted by Prometheus:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doc.Mid-Nite:
[qb]But Hal was improbally killed and didn't die an honourable death.
Re-Igniting the Sun, so that the Sol system (2814?)...his assigned sector of protection and patrol...might live on? Sounds pretty fitting and honourable to me.
That I could agree with if they didn't have Hal kill so many innocents before that.
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How does Hal Jordan (a skilled veteran hero with immeasurable willpower who's probably seen worse) "snap"?
Well, according to legitimate comic book history, Hal Jordan:
[QUOTE]A) Had two nervous breakdowns, both sending him on a spiral of self-loathing and identity crisis.
Which he dealt with and overcame.
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B) Was written for MANY years as an insecure miagma of doubt (due to never making it work with Carol, finding his way in life, etc.)
Which again, he dealt with and overcame everytime he fought Carol Ferris as Star Sapphire.
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C) Had a drinking problem (EMERALD DAWN)
Which he dealt with "big time" by the end of Emerald Dawn II. Besides that was before he was even Green Lantern (and he was "greying" by the time of Emerald Twilight)
To me, all these are instances of where Hal could have "snapped" but didn't, which makes Emerald Twilight seem even more ridiculous. But hey this is just my opinion, I could easily be missing something.
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quote:
Originally posted by Prometheus:
Actually, if you want to truly trace it, fiction was created to enlighten or entertain (the song of Bards, the mythological stories of the Greek and Romans, tribal stories told around the campfire, etc.).
This is starting to stray a bit from the point, but I can't help myself...
Those stories weren't considered "fiction". They were legends, sure, but most often, believed to be true. Infact, in most ancient cultures(and even some more recent cultures in early America) viewed fiction as "lying", a crime worthy of punishment.
True fantasy didn't see it's rise until the late 1700's, with the Renaissance in Europe.
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Caring for a character, and living out fantasies through a character, are two different things.
Well, certainly, though the act of imagining yourself in the shoes of the main character can be an essential part of a story(or really enjoying the story and understanding it's purpose).
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If there is a significantly exciting 'hook' in the end of the issue, then most any reader would come back for the next issue.
Sure, but the hook can't be that exciting if the readers don't care about the characters(or feel some amount of empathy towards them).
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I hope you didn't take anything I said personally. And, I don't remember "ridiculing" anyone. When I use the term "fanboy", it is used to describe those so overly obsessive about the intricate details of their favorite character, and their negative stranglehold against any real change.
I took no offense. These days, I follow writers, not characters, so any personal attachment I have to the characters stem from chilhood memories, of which I have many, when it comes to Hal Jordan(and Barry Allen).
I'm just trying to draw the line between caring for a character and being a "fanboy".
I don't hate Ron Marz for turning Hal into Parallax. I think it was a bold move. Bold...but extremely poorly executed. The demise of Hal, followed by the creation of a completely useless and utterly stupid character, in Kyle, sent me over the edge. It made no sense. The only reasonable comparison I could make, to another comic book entity, would be Slapstick(the uber-cartoony Marvel character) lifting Thor's hammer. It's not the change that pissed me off, it's the fact that the change was absurd.
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Originally posted by Grimm:
Exactly. During Morrison's run Kyle's character goes through a very defined arc: from awestruck newbie in New World Order to competent and fully functional member by World War Three.
I dunno. He seemed to be pretty out of it during WW3, as well. Infact, "mental breakdown" would probably be the best way to describe it. At least, that's how I took it.
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I like Kyle too. I think the first twenty or so issues of Marz's run are excellent. The problem was that he made Kyle evolve for a while (those 20 first issues), but then he just left the character as it was forever, probably because everyone alredy knew him as "the rookie". The series started getting more and more boring becuase the character didn't change anymore, he didn't learn like he did in those first issues, in fact, he repeated the same mistakes over and over.
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Dave and Prometheus,
You guys have said anything I might say better then I could so just consider this an all-encompassing "ditto"!
I loved Hal and he will always be my childhood hero but the GL mythos has changed and grew and I hope hope it continues movin' forward.
Kyle's story is really cool and I hope to see it continue for years.
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OP
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I probably wouldn't mind Kyle so much if he'd get a better costume. His costumes suck. He needs a good writer too.
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Let's not forget that the editorialship dictated to Marz on having Kyle replace Hal and for Hal to become Parallax. I will give them credit for taking an established super hero, an iconic one at that, and making him a villain along the lines of Luthor or Dr. Doom. Marz was against this from the beginning.
However, Marv Wolfman was exactly the same with Barry Allen. So much so that he left an out for Barry to come back which is posted on Marv's website. But I'd say that Wally West has worked out well for DC.
So what makes Kyle Rayner Green Lantern? Well, his being an artist gives him as much will power as Hal Jordan had. Maybe moreso. Daniel hit the nail on the head when he said that Kyle being without fear made him better than Hal because that meant that Kyle could relate to what motivated those he fought against better than Hal would.
I'd like to see the new creative team rebuild Kyle's supporting cast. Bring back Lee and Li for example. Radu as well. Build up Kyle's rogues gallery. Hal never had a solid one and Kyle's is so-so at best. He has no Green Goblin, no Joker, no Lex Luthor, no Reverse Flash. That needs to change because the primary rule in storytelling is that the antagonist makes the protagonist. And let's see Kyle become a major player in the DC Cosmic Powers right up there with Darkseid. I'd like to see more space adventures involving the Psions, the Gordanians, the Okaarans, and bring back the Omega Men since they debuted in the book.
Just a few thoughts that should be touched on by the GL team.
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And for the record, I hate his current costume. I hate the dog collar and the ribbed costume. What is he, a giant condom? Is he ribbed especially for her pleasure?
Kyle should go back to his original costume.
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quote:
I don't hate Ron Marz for turning Hal into Parallax. I think it was a bold move. Bold...but extremely poorly executed. The demise of Hal, followed by the creation of a completely useless and utterly stupid character, in Kyle, sent me over the edge. It made no sense. The only reasonable comparison I could make, to another comic book entity, would be Slapstick(the uber-cartoony Marvel character) lifting Thor's hammer. It's not the change that pissed me off, it's the fact that the change was absurd.
I haven't read the issues, of course, so I don't know how it was implemented except through reading myriad second hand complaints.
How cool would it have been to have kept Hal as a Magneto-esque figure in the DCU: extremely powerful, extremely dangerous, ambiguously motivated, and knowing all the secrets of the JLA.
I have previously postulated the scenario of Parallax executing a pre-emptive strike on the JLA: encase Clark Kent in a room full of Kryptonite, freeze the Flash (he is not faster than thought), knock Martian Manhunter into orbit with a fiery green fist, and smackdown WW with a green Superman.
Batman might have his protocols based on his insider's knowledge, but he doesn't have the power to enact them instantly. Parallax could have been an awesome ongoing quasi-villain, with his high level of firepower and the fact that the JLA were once his friends. Killing off the character was a bit of a gutless move by DC.
But, as I say, he is now dead.
This doesn't mean his wayward actions can't be explained, perhaps as some sort of slow and insidious mind control by Krona or Brainwave, or the Lord Malvolio thing. That would give his death a heroic aspect to it, and offer an end to the Spectre storyline: the Spectre avenges Hal Jordan's disgrace, and Jordan's spirit can then rest in peace.
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quote:
Originally posted by jafabian:
So what makes Kyle Rayner Green Lantern? Well, his being an artist gives him as much will power as Hal Jordan had. Maybe moreso.
So, wait, you're saying that an artist will naturally have more will power than a highly trained air force pilot.
....in what backwards reality is that true?
Imagination? Yeah, ok. Willpower? No. Absolutely not.
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Daniel hit the nail on the head when he said that Kyle being without fear made him better than Hal because that meant that Kyle could relate to what motivated those he fought against better than Hal would.
.....I don't want to get into "who's better". It's not debatable; it's just persona preference.
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Originally posted by Dave:
How cool would it have been to have kept Hal as a Magneto-esque figure in the DCU: extremely powerful, extremely dangerous, ambiguously motivated, and knowing all the secrets of the JLA.
I don't think that would have really worked as a longterm thing, though, because regardless of Hal's blemishes, at the end of the day, he's still a "good guy" at heart.
The Parallax character worked as an plausible idea in my mind because it was the result of years of stress and mental trauma, resulting in a mental breakdown. Hal snapped. To continue that would make it more than temporary, and I just can't see Hal continuing that insanity. Eventually, I believe the guilt would have set in. He is, after all, only human.
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quote:
Originally posted by jafabian:
Hal never had a solid one and Kyle's is so-so at best. He has no Green Goblin, no Joker, no Lex Luthor, no Reverse Flash. That needs to change because the primary rule in storytelling is that the antagonist makes the protagonist.
Amon Sur is a possible nemesis for Kyle.
I used to collect GL during the Jordan Era. I picked up the current GL arc and its pretty decent in my opinion. You can see that Kyle has evolved as a character.
I agree with Pro and Dave let Hal rest in peace.
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Just to clarify: I agree with Pro in that respect. I'm not saying Hal should be brought back.
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I'm a Hal fan, but a Kyle fan too, so I wouldn't like to see the end of Kyle to go back to Hal. While I didn't think Hal's fall was handled very well, I don't particularly want to take a step backwards.
To me, one of the good things about the Corps is that if one falls, someone takes his place. That progression should be allowed to take place every now and then. It's a shame they've taken so long to set about rebuilding the corps.
I alos liked the idea of Hal as the Spectre, although I don't think it was very well executed.
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I thought Hal as Spectre could have actually been pretty interesting. Hal is compared to Barry a lot when the argument is "Hal should stay dead and not tarnish his legend, like Barry", but the difference is....Barry died a hero. Hal died a psychopathic mass murderer. This is one of the reasons the Spectre exists, he's a "redeemer".
It could have given more insight into why Hal did what he did, to explain an otherwise ambiguous(though we can all make assumptions on why) situation. I look at the fillin issue of JLA J.M Dematteis did before the Spectre series started. I thought it was great. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, that quality couldn't be duplicated in the regular series.
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