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More tax cuts for the wealthy with the lie that it will pay for itself. We've been down this road before. Anybody want to cheer this turd on or should we just reread the old Bushanomics thread?


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Democrats just got a couple of hours to read the tax bill before the GOP pushed it through. That's how great this bill is.


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Sen McConnell already answered what you alleged. For the tax cuts to increase revenue, the economy only has to rise 4/10ths of 1% over the next 10 years, and it is projected that the U.S. economy will do far better under the Republican tax cuts.

The economy under LESS THAN 1 YEAR of Trump's presidency has already grown to 3.4% annual growth rate, which far exceeds the average 1.8% annual growth of all Obama's 8 years. Not one year of Obama's treasonous self-destructive reign exceeded 2% growth.
In addition Obama gutted our military to what is now half the strength it was under Ronald Reagan and put in a dangerously unprepared condition that Trump is racing to improve.

Obama doubled black unemployment, that Tavis Smiley, no less, said erased 40 years of black advancement in the U.S.
Obama doubled both food stamp and disability enrollment, that Trump, through economic growth, has erased in less than his first year.
In addition to Obama splintering the nation along race and class lines with his racial demagoguery and Saul Alinsky tactics.

Obama added $10 >>>TRILLION<<< to the U.S. national debt, taking it from 10 trillion to 20 trillion in his 8 years, adding more debt than every previous president combined. And now Democrats are concerned about deficits?!?
Give me a frigging break.


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Yeah you already have shown that you won't recognize that Obama came into office with an economy he inherited from a republican that used the same type of logic with his tax cuts. This is why I think conservatives need a new name. Once in power you guys always add to the deficit after all this bitching about it when not in power. And when this doesn't work again you will blame the other side. Like you always have.


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Debt nearly doubled under Obama and now, suddenly, MEM is concerned about deficits again.

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Obama inherited a horrible economy. The deficit didn't shrink under Bush either. Obama had an economy that healed and grew while he was in office. You guys bitched about the deficit and now it's okay. I don't call myself a fiscal conservative btw. You nor WB shouldn't either g.


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 Quote:
Obama inherited a horrible economy. The deficit didn't shrink under Bush either. Obama had an economy that healed and grew while he was in office.


So you're saying you support deficits in order to improve the economy. In which case, you shouldn't have any problem with Trump increasing the deficit in an effort to improve the economy.

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If you buy into that than you and WB should be bitching about this increase correct? Do you feel Wall Street is in worse shape today than it was in 2008?


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 Originally Posted By: Matter-eater Man
Do you feel Wall Street is in worse shape today than it was in 2008?


And suddenly you're concerned about the condition of Wall Street.

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I think lots of people reguardless of party were concerned about the condition of Wallstreet in the Great Recession. I think at this point you're being intectually dishonest. Pony up and answer the questions. You are otherwise not worth my time g


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Barack Obama is a cultural Marxist radical, whose policies were anti-business.

Obama, in addition to adding 10 trillion in debt, ALSO printed over 3 trillion in new currency. Which I haven't seen addressed completely in conservative or liberal media, but it's something I term "burning the wick at both ends".

Trump's policy are not ideological or anti-American/Marxist, his policy is specifically aimed at creating jobs, economic growth, and moving businesses and an estimated 7 trillion in corporate assets back to the United States, where it can creat business expansion and jobs. Obama's policies were about "punishing" and "social justice", which are precisely the policies that destroyed the Soviet Union, Cuba, and more recently Venezuela. As his 8 years in office of stagnant economic growth clearly manifests.

In addition to Obama's using the IRS to harass and intimidate his political enemies, using the NSA and CIA to spy on officials of the Trump campaign AND the newly elected Trump administration. And used their FISA-acquired transcripts of Gen Flynn with the Russian ambassador to trap him into perjury, where his only crime is not telling the truth, not an actual crime.

An infuriating contrast to Hillary Clinton, Obama and their personal mafia, who are not subject to deposition under oath for their ACTUAL CRIMES.


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    EXACTLY what they accuse Republicans/conservatives of doing, is EXACTLY what liberals/Democrats do themselves, to those who oppose their beliefs.
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When this doesn't work how will you shift blame?


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 Originally Posted By: Matter-eater Man
When this doesn't work how will you shift blame?


It worked under JFK.

It worked under Ronald Reagan.

It worked under George W. Bush (except that Bush spent to fund two wars, and at some point after recovery began should have called on the nation to accept tax raises and sacrifice to pay for the two wars he was fighting. Although 80% of the 5 trillion he spent was on social programs IN FULL PARTNERSHIP WITH THE DEMOCRATS, and cannot fully be blamed on Bush alone: the prescription drug plan, No Child Left Behind, and expansion of social security. These programs were the wet dream fulfilled for Democrats, and I think a way for Bush to attempt to buy their cooperation, by bipartisanly compromising to give them what they wanted. A true conservative would have cut spending to offset the cost of the wars, and not spent more than we were bringing in.)

But regardless, there is a track record of these tax reductions increasing Federal revenue, as well as creating private-sector business expansion and jobs.

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It worked under Calvin Coolidge.

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Yep.


10 trillion in new debt under Obama, over an 8 year period.
Democrat response: <crickets>


Trump passes tax cut bill that, assuming no growth (despite that Trump's first year has 3.4% growth already, vs. Obama's piddly 1.8% growth all 8 years). So unrealistically assuming no growth from the tax cuts:
Democrat response: "Armageddon! The sky is falling the sky is falling!"




It's all in the crazy eyes...

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Remember when PJP wanted to hate fuck Nancy Pelosi?

Good times, good times.

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I think JFK got a piece of that.




I have to admit, back in the day Pelosi was quite an attractive woman. She's still looking rather good for a woman who is 77. But with the off-the-deep-end stuff she believes (or at least fronts to), and those crazy eyes... not with a 10 foot pole!



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 Originally Posted By: the G-man


There is a difference in increasing the deficit to give the very wealthiest a huge tax break and not wanting to cut a program like Medicare that allows a lot of elderly Americans to not live in poverty. You don't want to talk about it but the last time Bush did it the wealth didn't trickle down. Wages stayed stagnant. My guess is the same thing is going to happen. In fact when the stock market recovered after the big recession that started during the final year of Bush's presidency wages stayed flat as unemployment dropped during Obama's. Concentrating wealth into fewer hands doesn't make this country stronger and it's sad that it's become your parties goal.


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Conservative Republicans have actually criticized Trump's tax plan for not giving the wealthy a BIGGER percentage of tax breaks. Trump shrunk the savings for the wealthy, so they actually will get a smaller percentage tax break than the middle class. But Because the wealthy earn more money, they will get a lower percentage, despite that it is more dollars.

Whether the wealthy open a new factory, go on another expensive vacation, or buy a new Porsche, any of the above contribute to the economy and job creation. As opposed to $7 trillion in corporate assets sitting in offshore accounts, that Trump's tax breaks will draw back to the United States.
In less than his first year, we are seeing a 28% rise in the stock market, the lowest unemployment rate since 2000, an increase in factory jobs, and the erasure of the huge spikes in unemployment and disability claims that occurred under Barack Obama's 8 years. In addition (U.S. Border Patrol numbers) an 87% decrease in illegal border crossings, and a rebuilding of our military and U.S. global prestige.
Liberals don't want to give Trump credit, but those are incredible achievements by Trump, in less than one year no less! One can imagine what Trump could achieve without vindictive obstruction by establishment types on both sides.



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WB I've been following the stock market and economy too. You like to ignore the fact that in the last couple of years things have been ramping up. Wall Street and the stock market recovered a long time ago after the recession. You have posts denouncing the employment gains as not reflecting the true job market and have pointed out that wages haven't gone up. Trump inherited a good economy that you felt very differently when Obama was President. And wages are still stagnant while the very wealthy have been doing very well. Again what happens when this doesn't work like it didn't work when Wdid it? Make cuts to Medicare and other programs so there's even more poor people?


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 Originally Posted By: Matter-eater Man
WB I've been following the stock market and economy too. You like to ignore the fact that in the last couple of years things have been ramping up. Wall Street and the stock market recovered a long time ago after the recession. You have posts denouncing the employment gains as not reflecting the true job market and have pointed out that wages haven't gone up. Trump inherited a good economy that you felt very differently when Obama was President. And wages are still stagnant while the very wealthy have been doing very well. Again what happens when this doesn't work like it didn't work when Wdid it? Make cuts to Medicare and other programs so there's even more poor people?


1.8% annual growth for 8 years was not "ramping up"!
It was ideological socialist zealots killing business with their policies. And as soo as Trump replaced them, the economy went up in less than a year to 3.4% annual growth. And consider with that how the nation suffered 5 devastating hurricanes, and STILL grew 3.4%. Without the hurricanes, I'm confident it would have been 4%.
In less than a year under Trump!

The DNC propaganda about "slow steady growth" isn't fooling anyone. It grew at a "slow steady" 1.8% for 8 years. What changed was President Trump, otherwise it would still be 1.8%.


The core of the problem is the global economy, and more specifically the offshoring of jobs. The global competition of formerly protected (up till the 1990's) U.S. workers, with salaries, health benefits, retirement pensions and other first-world protections, who now are forced to compete with third-world labor in east asia and the former communist bloc nations, that has driven down the wages, healthcare and pensions of U.S. workers, who have lost the formerly tariffed protection from unfair pricing of goods and labor from overseas.

Trump is endeavoring to bring manufacturing back to the United States. To make the U.S. economy, industry and energy self-sustaining again.

Democrats are trying to punish "the wealthy" and destroy what capitalist incentive there is left in the U.S., and make us over into socialist Europe and/or the former Soviet Union. Bernie Sanders has praised Russia, China, Cuba and Venezuela, and used to hang a Soviet flag in his mayor's office in Vermont, before becoming a Senator. And he is one in spirit with the former Occupy Wall Street movement, that has become the Sanders movement, along with many other wackos in the Democrat Senate and Congress, and those of the Obama and Clinton administrations, not to mention their brethren among college professors nationwide and the liberal media.

Trump is endeavoring to bring manufacturing and jobs back to the United States, and every report I have seen says that his tax cuts, as well as abolishing Obamacare, will increase business growth, increase jobs, increase annual growth to 4% or higher, and that growth will create pressure for higher wages for the middle class.

A review:
The stock Market is up 28% since Trump was elected.
Unememployment is at the lowest rate since 2000.
Unemployment and disability claims that doubled under Obama have been completely reversed.
Black homeownership is at the highest level EVER!
The problem with unemployment numbers as measured under both Trump and Obama is it only measures those who are looking for work, not those who are not looking or have given up looking. Under Obama, despite rosy numbers, if all unemployed were counted, unemployment would have manifested Depression-era levels of unemployment, and I don't think that has been completely reversed. But Trump has been in office less than a year, and the numbers are turning in the right direction. Dramatically. And certainly economic indicators are in Trump's favor, for anyone who isn't an anti-Trump MediaMatters zealot.

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So far the Trump economy looks a lot like the Obama economy

This gives you a good comparison. I don't blame you for trying to make your guy look as good as possible but it's pretty easy to see the deception Trump supporters are using with the numbers. I have another thread that debunks Trump's hype about his earlier numbers that were good but actually underperformed Obama's. Your party is about to add a trillion dollars to the deficit to help the very wealthy who were already doing very well. I suspect that will be followed up with cuts to programs that will increase more poverty. I ask again when this all doesn't work who are you going to blame?


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Bottom line:

Obama's 8 years, average 1.8% annual growth, the lowest on any recorded post-recession economic recovery.

Trump's first year: 3.4%. And that's despite 5 devastating hurricanes causing Trump's economy to underperform.

By the way, your link is from the Washington Post, a centerpiece of the destroy-Trump anti-Trump media. What do you expect the WP to say, Trump's doing a great job?

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Bottom line you can see what the economy has done from year to year. The fact that you choose to only use an average of 8 years that includes one of the worst recessions in history tells me you're not even fooling yourself. You can compare Obama's final year to Trump's first but you don't like what it shows. Trump and the GOP are on the vege of adding to the deficit with tax cuts for the wealthy. This will be followed by cutting into Medicare and other programs.


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The tax cuts are not "for the wealthy", that is Media Matters / DNC lying propaganda. Proportionately, the wealthy get a smaller tax break than middle class income earners. Many in the GOP have pressured Trump to give a more proportionate tax break to the wealthy as is being given to the middle class, to be fair and equal in the tax break. While the wealthy earn more, and even with the lower tax break to the wealthy, they will earn more, yes. But it is not preferential for the rich, as you and your party lyingly allege.

While it is true that, not figuring the inevitable growth resulting from a tax cut, the tax cuts will initially cause an increase in the debt of an estimated 1.4 trillion, within 2 or 3 years the economic growth resulting will more than pay for that. The economy in Trump's first year has already grown by 3.4%, which again, is far higher than Obama's 1.8% annual growth over Obama's entire 8 years.

For Trump's tax cuts to bring growth, the economy only has to grow 0.4% annually to pay for itself. And far beyond that, is expected to grow 3 or 4% a year, and again, has already grown 3.4% tis year alone (probably 4% already, if not for the economic loss of 5 devastating hurricanes that hit the U.S.). And that's WITHOUT the tax cuts!

I fail to see that you've made any case whatsoever for what Obama "has done from year to year", as if it was some great achievement. In fact, Obama's was the worst and smallest recorded economic recovery after any recession ON RECORD. Period.


And most importantly, you bemoan deficit spending as if it were Armageddon under Trump, but the tax cuts take away $1.4 trillion (AGAIN: which more than pays for itself in economic growth), whereas Obama's 8 years added $10 trillion in debt to the U.S., more debt than all other presidents combined. Funny how you selectively omit that crucial fact, and demonstrate very selective and partisan outrage over a president's policy creating debt!


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I've posted the links that show how the economy has been doing all along. You just don't like them because it doesn't fit with your narrative. The tax cuts do overwhelmingly benefit the wealthy. It will add to the deficit. The Treasury Department came out with an "analysis " not long ago and that relied on some improbable math. Even with that there are some cuts that will be triggered in programs like Medicare. And while the GOP is hyping the cuts I've seen nothing that indicates this will raise wages. That's going to be a problem no matter how well the stock market is doing.


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 Originally Posted By: WB
While it is true that, not figuring the inevitable growth resulting from a tax cut, the tax cuts will initially cause an increase in the debt of an estimated 1.4 trillion, within 2 or 3 years the economic growth resulting will more than pay for that. The economy in Trump's first year has already grown by 3.4%, which again, is far higher than Obama's 1.8% annual growth over Obama's entire 8 years.

For Trump's tax cuts to bring growth, the economy only has to grow 0.4% annually to pay for itself. And far beyond that, is expected to grow 3 or 4% a year, and again, has already grown 3.4% tis year alone (probably 4% already, if not for the economic loss of 5 devastating hurricanes that hit the U.S.). And that's WITHOUT the tax cuts!

I fail to see that you've made any case whatsoever for what Obama "has done from year to year", as if it was some great achievement. In fact, Obama's was the worst and smallest recorded economic recovery after any recession ON RECORD. Period.


And most importantly, you bemoan deficit spending as if it were Armageddon under Trump, but the tax cuts take away $1.4 trillion (AGAIN: which more than pays for itself in economic growth), whereas Obama's 8 years added $10 trillion in debt to the U.S., more debt than all other presidents combined. Funny how you selectively omit that crucial fact, and demonstrate very selective and partisan outrage over a president's policy creating debt!


Even in the worst case scenario that the economic growth doesn't more than pays for the tax break, speculating 1.5 trillion in new debt under Trump is certainly far less than the 10 trillion accumulated under 8 years of Obama. Or even the 5 trillion under W. Bush.

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Your starting off by adding to the deficit with tax cuts for the wealthy. So what spending is Trump going to cut? If he's also going to increase defense spending that also adds to the deficit. It's fine if you and g want this but don't bother trying to pretend your a fiscal conservative because this isn't it.


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 Originally Posted By: Matter-eater Man
Your starting off by adding to the deficit with tax cuts for the wealthy. So what spending is Trump going to cut? If he's also going to increase defense spending that also adds to the deficit. It's fine if you and g want this but don't bother trying to pretend your a fiscal conservative because this isn't it.


That's an emotional argument that exploits class demagoguery. The fact is that virtually EVERYONE gets a tax break, and the wealthy get less as a percentage of their income than the middle class. The rich get to keep more in taxes because they earn more!

Even if a rich guy uses his tax savings to buy a corvette instead of building a factory, that contributes to the economy and job creation as well. But the evidence is already in, that many wealthy people are already re-investing their savings into bonuses, salary increases, and jobs/business expansion.


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So we had 8 years of republicans screeching about reducing the deficit and willing to shut down the government over it. Now in power it's on a spending spree after cutting taxes for the very wealthy. I get the politics behind it but it's not principled nor good for the country.


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