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This is actually something I've thought of for a while, since I saw a documentary on PBS titled "When WALMART came to Town", about a year ago. It described the destructive effect of Walmart being so big, and being able to purchase in such volume, that their incredibly low per-unit cost drives all other competition out of the market. The documentary described how when Walmart moves into a town, it "kills the town twice". First, it drives out all the small mom-and-pop family-owned bike shops, and hardware stores, and grocery stores and toy stores, when they build a big Walmart that outprices everyone else, and kills all the small shops in a small town's Main Street. Second, after Walmart has all the business, they consolidate from several shops near several small towns and close the least profitable locations, narrowing to a central location, so everyone in the nearby small towns has to drive 15 or 20 miles to get to the nearest Walmart, once they've killed all the local business. In the documentary, the camera rolls down mainstreet and shows all the empty store-fronts, all the businesses driven out by Walmart. In addition, the wages a Walmart pays its employees, and the benefits it provides, are pretty minimal, even by minimum-wage standards. Basically, Walmart pays wages that are arguably less than a living wage, by anyone's standards. And various retail businesses are forced to move jobs overseas to remain solvent and compete with the costs of their Walmart competition. If you look at the tags of any item in a Walmart (or target, or any other discount store) almost everything is made in China or some other third-world country, for wages of less than a dollar an hour. I know one manufacturer moving overseas that really surprised me was Levi-Strauss. I mean, nothing is more all-American than Levi's jeans, and even they were forced reluctantly to take their manufacturing overseas, in order to compete with other manufacturers. That one really shook me. And Windmere (which makes pots, pans and household utensels), is also relocated to China, somewhere near Hong Kong. Another 40,000 U.S. manufacturing jobs gone overseas, forever. Even high-tech jobs have gone overseas. AOL's programmers and tech support is located now in India, paid now at a fraction of previous U.S. wages. Thousands more jobs lost. About 3 million jobs have gone overseas since 2000. But Free Trade through NAFTA and GATT began under Clinton, so it isn't a problem of either Democrats or Republicans. Or more to the point, both are to blame. Since the 1990's, most low-tech manufacturing has moved to China. So I think Walmart is part of this trend toward driving down prices, which drives down their competitors' prices to compete, which drives down corporate costs of all their suppliers and distributors, which drives down wages, which to minimize labor costs, drives tens of thousands of formerly decent-paying jobs overseas. And what emerges to replace those jobs? Anything? From what I can see, people with formerly decent paying jobs are increasingly laid off and forced to work for low wages that are about half of what they formerly made. ~ I first got the idea to post this, after seeing one of Whomod's posts (one of those rare occasions the two of us are in agreement). But more recently, I saw this article, that prompted me to start this topic: quote:
Divided Over Discounts
For millions, Wal-Mart's slogan says it all: 'Always Low Prices.' Consumers save there, so they shop there.
But to critics, there's much more to it. They blame the retail giant for everything from low wages to bankrupting competitors.
The latest casualty, according to analysts? FAO Schwarz, who they say Wal-Mart crushed in the toy wars.
Is Wal-Mart Good for America?
By STEVE LOHR
The annual celebration of the American consumer economy — the holiday shopping season — is just underway, and Wal-Mart, the juggernaut of retailing, already seems to have claimed its first victim.
The corporate owner of F.A.O. Schwarz stores said last week that it would file for bankruptcy.
Bemoaning the news, analysts explained that the F.A.O. Schwarz formula of selling premium-priced toys in sumptuous surroundings could not withstand the steady advance of Wal-Mart into the toy business.
"Will Wal-Mart Steal Christmas?" asked a Time magazine headline.
The toy war is merely the most recent manifestation of what is known as the Wal-Mart effect. To the company's critics, Wal-Mart points the way to a grim Darwinian world of bankrupt competitors, low wages, meager health benefits, jobs lost to imports, and devastated downtowns and rural areas across America.
Wal-Mart got the holiday season started early, cutting some toy prices in September. How can specialists like Toys "R" Us compete in that environment?
Yet there is a wider, less partisan view of the company, which perhaps more visibly than any other corporation marches to the mandate of the global capitalist economy.
"Wal-Mart is the logical end point and the future of the economy in a society whose pre-eminent value is getting the best deal," said Robert B. Reich, the former labor secretary in the Clinton administration, and a professor of social and economic policy at Brandeis University.
To the company's supporters, Wal-Mart is an agent of economic virtue, using its market power to force suppliers to become more efficient and passing the gains on to consumers as lower prices.
The enthusiasts say Wal-Mart is a big reason for the country's almost nonexistent inflation and impressive productivity gains.
There is a lot to be said for getting the best deal, economists say. Prices, they note, are essentially a yardstick of efficiency, translated into consumer terms. Prices are concrete and measurable, while other values of consumer and social welfare —-say, product quality or job preservation-— are often hard to quantify or require costly intervention like protectionism or subsidies.
Moreover, some economists note, lower prices for the kinds of basic goods on sale at Wal-Mart superstores, like food and clothes, are of the greatest benefit to the less affluent. Grocery prices, for example, drop an average of 10 to 15 percent in markets Wal-Mart has entered, analysts say.
Wal-Mart By the Numbers:
$245B
2002 sales
$1.52B
Single-day sales record, Nov. 28, 2003
24
Number of U.S. stores, 1967
3,000
Number of U.S. stores, today
209,000
Square footage of one Ohio Wal-Mart Supercenter
21%
Estimated share of the toy business
$1.50
Hourly wage for a new
Wal-Mart cashier in Mexico
Sources: New York Times, TIME, Wal-Mart
"Wal-Mart is the greatest thing that ever happened to low-income Americans," said W. Michael Cox, chief economist of the Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas. "They can stretch their dollars and afford things they otherwise couldn't."
Wal-Mart is the largest American corporation in terms of sales, $245 billion last year. It is now the nation's largest grocer, toy seller and furniture retailer. More than 30 percent of the disposable diapers purchased in the country are sold in Wal-Mart stores, as are 30 percent of hair-care products, 26 percent of toothpaste and 20 percent of pet food. Wal-Mart has nearly 3,000 stores in the United States, and plans to add an additional 1,000 over the next five years.
Increasingly, the company is taking its formula abroad; Wal-Mart is now the largest private employer in Mexico.
The prospect of Wal-Mart amassing even more market power does not worry free-market economists like Mr. Cox.
Despite the company's gains, the retail industry is still not highly concentrated, he said, with Wal-Mart accounting for 20 percent of the sales of the 100 largest retailers. Its success has been built, Mr. Cox said, on mastering the use of information technology to streamline its operations — much like Dell Computer in the personal computer business. Inevitably, less efficient rivals will be winnowed, he added, and those that remain will compete aggressively for consumer dollars.
"With the new technology of the information age," Mr. Cox said, "we're moving to a new market structure in a lot of industries. And the optimal number of firms has gone way down."
Antitrust has traditionally been the tool for insuring competition and keeping a watchful eye on powerful companies.
But the evolution of antitrust policy over the last 30 years —-to emphasize price, not the number of competitors-— has actually worked to the advantage of businesses like Wal-Mart.
In the past, antitrust policy assumed that more companies meant more competition, which was good for consumers.
The Robinson-Patman Act of 1936 — sometimes called the anti-chain store act — was passed partly to protect small local retailers from the Great Atlantic & Pacific Tea Company, the Wal-Mart of its time. It prohibited price discrimination, or discounts, to different purchasers when the effect was to lessen competition. At the time, the drift of antitrust policy was to restrain big business and protect mom-and-pop stores.
The populist tinge to antitrust continued for decades.
In ordering the break-up of the Aluminum Company of America in 1945, Judge Learned Hand of the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit wrote that the purpose of antitrust was to "perpetuate and preserve, for its own sake and in spite of possible cost, an organization of industry in small units which can effectively compete against each other."
In 1966, the Supreme Court sided with the Federal Trade Commission in challenging a merger in the Los Angeles grocery market, Von's Grocery and Shopping Bag Food Stores, which together had only 7.5 percent of the local market.
But the intellectual tide shifted by the 1980's, especially under the growing influence of the so-called Chicago school of economics, which emphasized prices as the fundamental gauge of consumer welfare. Market concentration and company size meant little. If big companies raised prices, they were bad.
But if, like Wal-Mart, they achieved greater efficiency from economies of scale and passed the benefits onto consumers as lower prices, they were praised.
"Has our thinking on antitrust driven us toward an economic world that Wal-Mart represents?" asked Andrew I. Gavil, a professor at the Howard University law school. "I would say that it has. The harder question is whether that is a good or a bad thing."
To keep cutting costs, Wal-Mart is tough on its suppliers. Selling to Wal-Mart, by all accounts, is a brutal meritocracy. Manufacturers have been forced to lay off workers after Wal-Mart canceled orders when another vendor cut its price a few cents more.
Other suppliers have shifted to low-cost operations in China and elsewhere when squeezed by Wal-Mart to cut costs further.
Yet here again, many analysts regard Wal-Mart's practices as simply leading the way in the inevitable drive to making the economy more efficient.
"Wal-Mart is tough, but totally honest and straightforward in its dealings with vendors," said Michael J. Silverstein, a senior vice president at the Boston Consulting Group.
"Wal-Mart has forced manufacturers to get their act together and forced them to compete internationally."
There is some evidence that the company's zeal for efficiency has gone too far.
Wal-Mart's detractors point to a trail of litigation over pinch-penny issues like unpaid overtime, and to a federal investigation into its use of poorly paid illegal immigrants as janitors.
Wal-Mart insists that any problems do not reflect the culture of the company as a whole.
"If there is valid criticism that comes from these cases, we will own up to it and made improvements," said Ray Bracy, vice president of international corporate affairs for Wal-Mart.
Wal-Mart's growing power has brought increased scrutiny from federal and state regulators. But as long as the company keeps delivering lower prices, they will most likely be reluctant to act, beyond prosecuting employment infractions.
The classic behavior of a predatory corporation is to cut prices to drive out competition in order to raise them later. There is no evidence yet that that is the Wal-Mart strategy.
"Consumers get huge benefits from Wal-Mart as long as it has real competition," Mr. Reich said. "The worry is that it becomes so powerful that it can unfairly stifle competition."
Copyright © 2003 The New York Times Company.
12-08-03
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cobra kai 15000+ posts
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is it the problem or is it the ideal?
its a difficult argument.
y'start a business and, 9 times outta 10, the sole purpose is to make money. then more money. if you're lucky, you can open a second store, or 5 more. a chain, etc. just keeps growin via supply, demand, advertising, luck and... well... business practices of varying lex luthor-like ruthlessness.
granted, walmart has taking things a bit too far (or, at least, is accused of such), by having slave laborers in foreign countries helping to keep their overhead so minimal. scenarios like that warrant all scumbag accusations they can muster.
but that aside, tho its easy to hate the big megamarts, its difficult to fault them. business is business.
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"Judge Learned Hand"?
O, Let a better man than I Come up with jokes for that one.
But anyway... Yes. Walmart is evil.
Did we all hear about the wonderful scandal of Wal-Mart hiring illegal aliens for pennies?
Or, did we know that Wal-Mart has life insurance policies on all of its employees?
And, let us not forget their Nazi-like cheers?
They're evil!
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What about the plastic furniture?
The 1 hour wait at checkout?
The white trash that find it appropriate to beat their kids in public?
The porposely selling defective merchardise?
Selling guns to minors?
If you can't tell I hate Wal-mart. There is just so many things wrong with it, I wouldn't know how to fix it.
My mom recently bought a vacuum there. After a couple weeks it broke. She returned it. Exchanged it for a new one. Brought it home, asked me to assemble it. When I opened the box I notice that it's missing the manual and some packaging. We went back to Wal-mart. At the return desk they had a couple returned already. The clerk acted like nothing was wrong and gave us a new vacuum.
Is this the way to run a company?
They are obvously selling broken/defective merchandise. We got no apology.
This is just one of the many bad experiences I've had at walmart.
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Here's Whomod's post i mentioned before, from the "U.S. Government, Yea or Nay" topic: http://www.robkamphausen.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=27;t=001041 quote:
Originally posted by whomod:
I'll post this as an example of how oblivious most people are to the problems caused in the third world for the sake of our convenience.
This column is referencing a 3 part series that documented how Wal-Mart demands and demands lower prices for products lest they send their business over to China or somewhere where I presume slave labor will do it for less. So the sweatshops of Honduras have to depress wages, cut payrolls and demand more hours, more quotas and the same pay so you can have cheap clothing.
Never mind the economic damage done at home by Wal-Mart, making Medicare forms and food stamps a part of employee orientation in the place of what should be health coverage and a living wage.
But if my experience is any indication, people JUST-DON'T CARE. All that matters is cheaper prices. Regardless if manufacturing jobs are disappearing rapidly, regardless if health costs go higher and higher, regardless if Wal-Mart is creating sweatshop conditions in their demand for greater profit margins.
quote:
The Real Cost of That $8.63 Polo Shirt
I don't know about you, but when I read the three-part series on how Wal-Mart does business in the U.S. and around the world, one figure in particular jumped out at me.
It was in a section about how manufacturing and other jobs have been driven out of the United States as the discount chain chases cheap labor and supplies to the ends of the earth so it can provide shoppers absolute rock-bottom prices.
A mother named Isabel Reyes works 10 hours a day in a Honduras sweatshop, stitching fabric to make polo shirts.
And the price to us, back here in the good ol' U.S. of A., is $8.63.
Did I read that correctly — $8.63?
Is that the best Wal-Mart can do?
Now wait a minute. Because of the way Wal-Mart does business in America and beyond:
A. Your Uncle Ed's factory went under and he's on the dole,
B. A couple dozen merchants got rocked by the ripple effect,
C. A nail was driven into the coffin that used to be a quaint downtown,
D. That Honduran mom made $7 for 10 hours of toil,
E. A Chinese company is probably plotting to underbid the Hondurans,
F. Wal-Mart execs padded their mega-million-dollar portfolios,
G. And our taxes are going up because Wal-Mart employees who can't afford health insurance are dragging themselves into the county emergency room.
If that's the cost to you and me and everyone else, that polo shirt ought to be $5.99 and not a penny more, or we're being seriously ripped off.
I went back and checked the section on Isabel Reyes to see if there's a way Wal-Mart can squeeze a little more production out of her, and sure enough, that laggard isn't pulling her weight.
She sews sleeves onto roughly 1,200 shirts a day, and although her bosses keep cracking the whip, she wonders why there's no extra pay for additional work.
Ten hours is 10 hours, Isabel. You're lucky to have a job at all.
Comprende?
I'll admit that others see it differently.
"The unfortunate reality is that [some] corporations are preying on the desperate poverty of working people in other parts of the world, undermining worker rights, polluting the environment, and violating human rights based on the fact that they can get away with it," says UCLA labor researcher Kent Wong
What does he know?
I say we're in deep, and there's no turning back. We don't need to slow down the Wal-Martization of the world, we need to speed it up.
Take the 70,000 grocery workers walking picket lines in Southern California, trying to hold onto wage-and-benefit packages that pay $10 more per hour than Wal-Mart.
Who needs those annoying pickets, and who needs Ralphs and Vons and Albertsons when we've got Wal-Mart?
They can all go under and nobody will miss them because Wal-Mart is charging into California with 40 Supercenters. A Supercenter, by the way, is the usual galactic Wal-Mart enormity, along with an equally colossal grocery section.
If we all shop there, Wal-Mart will be able to buy in even higher volume, and we'll all pay less.
Would you believe $1.19 for Kellogg's Frosted Flakes?
Actually, I'd go for something a little healthier, because the one thing we all want to be lower than food prices is taxes. As a result, Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger is proposing cuts in medical care, cuts for the disabled, foster children and the poor.
On the up side, a can of soup could be as low as 28 cents.
"Among all the industrial countries of the world, the U.S. has by far the largest gap between rich and poor," says UCLA's Wong, who just won't stop yammering about how the rich get richer and the bottom is dropping out of the middle class.
Meanwhile, Los Angeles City Councilman Eric Garcetti is trying to set up roadblocks for when Sam Walton's boys ride into town to scout locations.
Garcetti co-authored a proposed ordinance that aims to dictate location, grill Wal-Mart on its wage-and-benefits package and require an economic impact report.
Forget that. I'd like to know why a pair of pants has to be more than $7.
"I grew up in the Valley and remember talking with folks who said the GM in Van Nuys had the effect on local neighborhoods of lifting up wages for everybody," Garcetti said. "A super Wal-Mart has the opposite effect. It drags down wages for everybody."
Who cares about wages? Our problem is high prices, not low wages.
Back to Honduras, our friend Isabel Reyes said she can barely hold a pot handle or lift her child when she gets home from the factory after sewing all those polo shirts. Maybe if you popped a few more of those anti-inflammatory drugs, you'd pull yourself together, Isabel.
You think we got it easy here in the U.S., circling, circling, circling for a parking space so we can run in there and buy the polo shirt that keeps you in high cotton?
Like the boss says, faster, faster, faster, because we need cheaper, cheaper, cheaper.
As it is, that polo shirt is costing us a fortune.
An extention of the public apathy I'm describing is U.S. support for brutal dictatorships just so long as they maintained stability in order for prices of goods to remain low. No one here really cared about anyone elses sufferings under dictatorships just so long as prices remained affordable. And if democracy somehow took root, well, the CIA would be there to undermine the election and the will of the people in order to preserve "our interests".
But then when people dislike America, we can say that they're just jealous of us.
I say we're better than this. And if we're not, then we should strive to be.
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Wal Mart is just one more reason NOT to trust big business.
Only as an absolute last resort will I shop at Wal Mart.
"The white trash that find it appropriate to beat their kids in public?"
This is another of my reasons why I despise patronizing a Wal Mart, that there are "clients" in the stores who seem to think nothing of berating and outright beating their children in front of God and everyone. That is beyond distasteful.
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cobra kai 15000+ posts
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oh come ON!
you can't blame walmart cuz some psycho mom beat her kid in their parking lot.
i'm sure hitler used to buy chocolates at some local bakery.
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I'm not blaming Wal Mart so much for parents beating their children. But the guy who mentioned it first here is right...When I've been in there, it seems you can encounter at least one parent who's having a verbal go at their kid in the store. As a parent myself, I'm very sensitive to this.
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Kisser Of John Byrne Ass 15000+ posts
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Is the solution supporting local merchants?
I honestly search for stuff made in the USA. Honestly, I rarely find much. When I do was it assembled in the US? Was it made with mostly parts or pieces made in foreign countries? this is a whacky world.
I think tariffs that level the playing field and make companies think twice before leaving the US are a large part of the answer. Doing away with NAFTA is also a start. Tariffs would hurt the economy in the short run or for a couple years. But eventually it would pay off in the form of more US jobs with higher pay for many. IMO.
As a society, our search for dollar store bargains/bobbles is robbing us of our (or our children's ) future.
Between debt/credit spending and living beyond one's financial resources our economy is walking more of a tightrope than people often let on.
I think Wal Mart is a consumer creation, a need that needed met. we have a consumer/consumption based economy that feeds our national resevoir of funds. We have come to the point where if Americans don't buy , rather than save like we should, then our economy could theroretically collapse in short order.
Wal Mart is the end product like some of that article pointed out. the true culprit is more in line with multi-national corps, banks, and other institutions. there is no loyalty anymore ..nationally or personally on an employment level. there is only the bottom line and profit. That is the problem.
I think the recent US Steel worker debacle proves this nicely.
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Wal Mart came to my town years ago and nearly wiped out all the local merchants except the grocery stores, now theyve upgraded to a super center with groceries and nearly wiped out the grocery stores in the area. even tho my local grocer is a bit higher i still shop there just to stick it to Wal Mart a little....
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The only viable solution for "defeating" Wal-Mart is what bsams does: shop with the local guys, pay the extra buck. I'm all for it.
People are more than willing to berate a corporation until it affects their finances; then the excuses creep out. That's why Wal-Mart is winning right now...
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quote:
Originally posted by Jim Jackson:
Wal Mart is just one more reason NOT to trust big business.
Only as an absolute last resort will I shop at Wal Mart.
The first statement I disagree with. Big business provides jobs and benefits to tens of millions of workers. My father worked 25 years for IBM, and I don't believe IBM or most other corporations are inherently evil.
But many corporations are forced to do things that are arguably ruthless, to compete with other corporations like Walmart, that drive down profits to the point that their only alternative is to use third-world labor and push thier own production out of the U.S. as well. Their alternative is to go broke.
I agree with Theory9, that the only way to fight what is occurring is to pay the extra money to support Walmart's competition, who keeps their manufacturing and employees in the U.S.
I've long thought that I'd rather pay an extra 10 or 20 cents per pound for my fruit, with the provision that the extra money is used by fruit producers to provide living wages and health benefits to their migrant-worker employees. Channel 4 in south Florida just recently aired the 1960 "Harvest of Shame" a famous news documentary by one of the most trusted journalists in broadcast history, Edward G Murrow, detailing the terrible living conditions of migrant workers at that time, prior to several nights of their own coverage of the modern situation.
In the drive for rock-bottom prices, there should instead be some moderation and regulation, to prevent the decrease of living standards that's occurring. That's a problem that neither the Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, or G.W. Bush administrations have been willing to confront. Precisely because that's how their campaigns are funded, through corporate donations.
That's also the reason for the masive spike in immigration that began during the Clinton administration. Corporations want foreign labor, who are willing to work for less, even in high-tech jobs. Under either pary, Corporate campaign donors want cheap labor, and they get it.
Although that was the 90's, and now the trend is for outsourcing not just low-tech manufacturing, but even the high-tech jobs to other countries.
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I don't see a self inflicted boycott working. It's comparable to when the farmers tryed to organize in this country. People just are not going to resist cheaper prices. As budgets get tighter it becomes even tougher. The only solution I see is some type of legislation that would effectively put a leash on these types of uber corps. Not one that would strangle them but guide them in paths more beneficial to everyone.
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I'm not sure if I think it's what's wrong with America, but I both like and dislike it. I like that I can go in and buy stuff like toiletries, music, and DVDs cheeper than at SuperK or Target, but at the same time, the one by my house is over flowing with white trash. My sister makes cracks about them from time to time, but it's true. Another thing I don't like about them is their clothes, I think they use the cheepest material, and you can get a better quality at Kmart, or better yet, Target. Now granted, I don't shop at either Walmart or Kmart for clothes anymore, I did buy clothes at Kmart when I worked there around 10 years ago, but lets not forget that I was a college student, paying my way through school and so the 10% discount I got helped, even though it really just took care of tax and a little of the items. But I usually clothes shop at Kohl's or Target these days, Kohl's more so.
A number of years ago, I decided to stop buying clothes that were cheeper but instead paid more for quality. That is something I've stuck with. I can't afford to go out and buy new clothes any time I want, so when I do buy something, I want to make sure it'll last a couple years at least.
But getting back to Walmart, I've found that I've stood in endless lines there just about every time I've gone. I recently bought a office chair, and haven't had a problem with it, so far. It's still pretty early to tell. But I decided to shell out some cash for this one, versus my last one, a student chair, that cost me 20 bucks and basically was worth that much. In all the parts that mattered, like the cover on the back, it was plastic, and so after sitting in it, for hours at a time, for a few months, the metal ground through the plastic and it broke, in other places as well.
But I still go there more than I do Kmart beacuse in general, they have more than the Super K does. Then again, if I want groceries, I just go to Dominick's, one of the major grocery stores in IL, the other being an old employer of mine, Jewel. Personally I've always felt Dominick's had better quality than Jewel did, even though they sell the same things. But as for competition goes, for all my years, I have never seen something this crazy before, the only other time being remotly close was in Wilmette. By my house, on Rollins Rd, there is litterally 4 strip malls in a row, all of which have a grocery store in them. Starting at the corner of 83 and Rollins there's a little mall with the Jewel, on the North East corner, and directly accross from that is another mall with a Cub food. On the other side of the street, the North west corner, is the mall with the Walmart and the Dominick's and the mall next to that has the SuperK and a nice huge mega plex. Now it's nice having all those choices right there because I go to all of them for different reasons, but at the same time it's insane! The only thing that was added in the past 8 years, that wasn't there when we moved up here, was the Cub foods, and the Dominick's sort of. The store Dominick's moved into was another grocery store, the name of which I forgot, but that closed about a year or 2 after we moved up and Dominick's moved in there.
Interstingly enough and related to this topic, just this morning, on the radio, they mentioned that a number of Dominick's are going to close, those that aren't doing as well. I don't think the ones up here are in danger though, I think it's just the ones in the city.
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Yes, what you describe happening to Dominick's (a supermarket chain we don't have here in Florida) is likely to happen to a lot of chains, as Walmart expands into "Superstore" supermarket foods. Here's a link to a story that ran on PBS News Hour last night, on the exodus of jobs overseas since the 1990's, and ongoing: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/economy/july-dec03/outsourcing_12-16.html
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Batwoman--
Why should "white trash" shopping in the same store as you bother you at all?
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i like walmart ![[sad]](images/icons/frown.gif)
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I never said white trash shopping in the same store bothers me. I have no problem with them shopping in the same store as me.
As for the Dominick's thing, fortunatly the Walmart by my house hasn't done the super store thing entirely, but they have expaned their inventory to include some groceries, like Kmart did with the BigK stores, the one I worked at being one of them, which closed down a few years ago, and has since been torn down. Course that was the 4th store in that building, all of which were like that. The sad thing is I remember the first one, Community, and every one after that. *sigh*
Thanks for the link Dave, I'll check it out, when I reclaim my life. :)
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K, found what I was looking for. In this case, I don't think Walmart was to blame for the problems with Dominick's. Basically, a brief history for those that don't live in IL, Safeway bought the company/chain in 98 and made a bunch of changes to it. It went from being a regular looking grocery store/supermarket, to this mega grocery store, with a sitting/eating area, and a little cafe in a sense. You can go in and have lunch or dinner, then go grocery shopping. Personally, I like the changes, but that's just me. After the crappy conditions I worked under at Jewel, scanners that didn't work hlf the time, convyor belts that emitted a high pitch noise, etc, the changes made gives it more of a nicer look/feel. Kind of like some of the local stores downtown. Now the kicker is Jewel's trying to copy them by cleaning up and fixing up their stores. The one by my house recently was remodeled. *shakes head* Anyway, getting back to teh reason for my post. This is the last paragraph in a bit that was on the news last night and the link that follows is the full thing. quote:
After paying $1.2 billion for Dominick's in 1998, Safeway introduced a series of changes that alienated both shoppers and workers, according to industry analysts.
http://www.nbc5.com/money/2708057/detail.html
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I work for Target as a part time job, and I have to chime in - Target isn't that bad for a discount outlet. Please don't compare us to the Evil Empire.
We ARE more pricey. But it's a sacrifice you have to make on a personal level. Target offers more in the way of the customer's ease and experience coming into the store. There are reasons we aren't as cheap in prices as Walmart. It all balances out.
**First and foremost, compare a Super Target store and a Super Walmart store in terms of cleanliness. Your average brand-new Super Walmart still isn't as clean as a four-year-old Super Target.
**We don't sell tobacco products because the founder's daughter died of lung cancer.
**We don't sell sewing fabric, paint, or a lot of automotive items, strictly for this purpose, I am told. Target doesn't want to put the small business - out of business.
**The clothes at Target are better quality. We even carry a few name-brands. They hold up in the wash better.
**Target and Walmart's pay and benefits are comparable. But minimal? For a part time job, I feel like I hit the jackpot. Mimimum wage is what now, $5.15? Target starts out at $7, and that's for a no experience needed, regular day-to-day part time position. I also get good medical and dental benefits - my dental plan pays 75% of most anything - even comestic surgeries - on about $1 a week.
**A major difference between Target & Walmart is that Target doesn't mass-hire to cut hours and benefits given. Target usually keeps everyone they hire. We don't mass-hire and lay off after Christmas. I was told as part time, I'll get anywhere from 25 to 40 hours a week and that's never changed.
**Usually, our lines are smaller. We have the staff and we use them. Have you ever heard the computer voice in the Super Target store "additional cashiers to the front lane, ___ side" go off? Every employee on the floor is trained to use a register and if the lines get backed up more than 3 in line, it's Target policy to set off that alarm and bring people to the front to help out. I've never heard one of those in Walmart. I HAVE seen where they bring out a scan gun and scan people in line, to get you through faster. You get scanned, get your total and still have to wait in line to get to the cashier to make the transaction - that doesn't really cut your time in line, it just makes you think so. It doesn't compare to bringing five employees off the main floor and putting them on registers.
**Target *doesn't* sell it's own brand of "censored" cds. We carry the original deals. You won't find explicit lyrics in Wal-mart. That may be o.k. for most but to some of us, that's annoying.
**A percentage of your purchases on your Target VISA goes to the school of your choice. They also send 10% discount cards along with that almost every month. We volunteer for housing projects, building playgrounds, etc.
**The biggest thing that I am glad of (working at Target) is that - we don't have that loud-ass intercom - speaker thing. Our employees aren't screaming at each other over it. It's much nicer and quieter at Target. Our team members communicate through walkie talkies. It equals out for a lot less noise-pollution on our customers and quicker communication between US. We don't have to run to a phone everytime we need something.
**Our cart attendants, at most stores, have the help of an electric vehicle that pushes the carts from behind. It operates manually and also from remote control. It's an expensive toy, but it will save your life if you are ever the only cart attendant on shift. All they have to do is load the buggies onto this thing in the parking lot and steer them into the store. No heavy pushing for an 8 hour shift.
There are quite a few more differences that I haven't listed that I just can't recall right now. I wrote a paper on this earlier this year.
_____________________________________
Actually, there is one certain aspect for BOTH that I have a distaste for. Baggers (don't laugh). Notice, neither have them. It's a downside in two ways.
It's my raising to believe that, when you involve groceries, you involve a service. When someone is coming in and buyin' $300 worth of groceries, I think that bagging their groceries for them and helping them out to their car should be included in that service. As a cashier at Target, I bag these groceries as I scan them and sit them on the counter behind me - and the customer is expected to pick them up and load them into his/her cart by themselves.
???
So, they shop for an hour, load 100+ items up onto the belt, then have to load the 100+ items back into their buggy, push the buggy out the car and unload the 100+ items into their car, unload the 100+ items from the car into their home.
That's not right.
Walmart does the same thing. They have the rotating bag thingee where the customer is supposed to pull the bag of items from themselves.
I think that the job of bagger is good for high school kids. It gives for good work experience, teaches them what to expect and how to behave in the workplace, etc. It also gives them a little income and keeps some off the streets. It's really sad that most of these places are cutting baggers out of the equation.
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Hey, I wasn't dising Target, in fact I was saying it was the best of the 3, and I used to work at Kmart so I can talk about that until the cows come home. I agree though that it is always cleaner and nicer, which is why I tend to go out of my way to shop there from time to time, but for the most part, the only reason I go to Walmart so often is the fact that it's litteraly 1.5 miles from my house, I go out the back way of my subdivision, drive down to the stop sign, about a block from there, turn left, and then into the parking lot from there. That easy, that and it's on my way home from work. I take the one street that ends right in front of it, so when I need to get something on the way home, like shampoo or something, I just go straight, through the intersection, and into the parking lot.
Target, on the other hand, is a few miles away, about 15 minutes away and so I tend to go there on the weekends, or any day I may not be working, since it's an out of the way place for me. I then gladly spend my money there, but again, I have to 'make a special trip' so to speak, for it. A few years ago, I went and bought a bunch of Christmas lights after Christmas for .50-$1.00 a box. In fact, this past summer I was looking at swimsuits there. I shop ther equit a bit, just not that often.
and since I'm just repeating myself, I'm off to bed. I have to be at work on the morning, and it's after 1:30 here. *sigh* midnight comes too fast around here.
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I'm sorry, Batwoman - i never meant to imply you or anyone was dissin' Target. I was just in rant mode myself, as you can tell. I was just pointing out the differences between the two stores. :) I don't want Target to get lumped into that "business killer" category. Even though we are up there behind Wal-mart, we aren't aiming to compete with them. Most of the big whigs know we can't compete, and they don't worry about it. Their attitude toward it all is "doing our own thing". Walmart is the one worried about us. That's why you'll see a Sam's store go up near a Target. :lol:
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Kisser Of John Byrne Ass 15000+ posts
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Target is a better store I think. I've purchased khakis at Kmart and Target (store brand) all 3 of the various pairs I have still look good and haven't fallen apart. On the other hand the wal mart brand I purchased started falling apart after 7 or so months and even my Levis Dockers only last around a year. So I for one am amazed at the quality of those and other items purchased there.
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Target and WalMart are each geared to different consumer groups. Target is more upscale, WalMart is more "lowest common denominator."
Jim
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Dave TWB said: "The first statement I disagree with."
Shock! Shock! I am completely stunned that you disagreed with me! I can't believe it! Stop the presses!
"Big business provides jobs and benefits to tens of millions of workers. My father worked 25 years for IBM, and I don't believe IBM or most other corporations are inherently evil."
For starters, I never said they were evil. Look back. I never used the word "evil." Don't put words in my mouth, bucko.
I just said I don't trust big corporations. Which means I'm always suspect and wary of big business.
Much of the benefits you say the offer millions have been benefits that the Government has had to force them into over the years...EOE, safe working conditions, family medical leave.
When it comes to big business, I remain ever a skeptic about their motives.
JJ
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Batwoman-- Why would you say that your local Wal-Mart is "overflowing with white trash" then?
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Because it's true. It was an observation, just as if I were to have said something like, there were more blacks in my high school than any other ethinicity. It doesn't mean I'm racist, it's just an observation plain and simple. No need to start something from nothing.
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Well, "white trash" is a characterization of a group of people. It's akin to you saying that a high school has more "niggers" in it than another high school. Both appelations denigrate based only on visual appearance.
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cobra kai 15000+ posts
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who you callin an appelation???
...
well, damnit, i like wal mart. and i'm no white trashian, nor am i "the man" in some sorta store stomping conspiracy.
i just like cheap stuff all in one place.
wal mart idn't doin anything worse than supermarkets or malls. or fast food places. or one hour photo labs.
now, if the place (or any place) is sponsoring slave camps in other countries... that just aint right. and, odds are, many of the stores we frequent, indirectly or otherwise, are in situations like that.
and, its not that i want to take (or want to admit) that im so callous i don't care... however... we all have our own bottom lines to take care of.
my mortgage payments don't stop or decrease because i hate the ethics of walmart. food, medical payments, car payments, electric bills (etc) don't care if you save a buck buying cheaper cheese or not.
walmart helps. me.
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I agree!! I have and continue to shop WalMart, you can not beat the prices!!
But how many other companies like Goodyear, Firestone, IBM and others have not been directly or indirectly, linked or involved with illegal activities such as sweatshops, funnelling money to subversive or hate groups like the KKK or other such acts!!
These companies have so much money in so many different arenas, it is hard to track what is appropriate or not!! Many of the same companies KNOW exactly what they are putting their funds into!!
But until there is some sort of corporate oversight committee in place, the same things will contine to happen...as they have for centuries!!
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I'm going to Walmart later for paper towels.
Am I evil?
I am man.
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Well said!
If I can add further to that...
"I am man...on a budget! At Christmas time!!"
:lol:
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Even I admit that I am going to WalMart this evening, for a gift for my wife which she said is the cheapest there.
It's just that I...don't...like...shopping...there. It just depresses me. I feel like I lose brain cells by osmosis there. The lines are long, the people often unfriendly.
I shop there only out of necessity.
But you're OK, Rob. It's OK to like WalMart.
Pig.
:lol:
Jim
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To Jim Jackson and any one else that has nothing better to do than to single me out and try to draw me into a flame war over using the term white trash....
I'm not the only person on this thread to use that term, nor am I the only one on these boards to use that term! I did not use it in a derogitory manor! It was an observation, nothing else! You can nitpick about it all you want, so get over it! I know plenty of people that use that term, white, black, whatever. It is no where near similar to calling someone the N word, I refuse to even type it out!
With that said, you can waste your time trying to suck me into a flame war, but I wont waste my time falling for it. Nor will I post to this thread again. I have nothing else to say since things I've said have been taken out of context.
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Why do people insist on whining about things I like? :lol: I wonder if horse breeders and trainers and the manufacturers of carriages had similar objections when Henry Ford was building his industry. ![[no no no]](graemlins/nono.gif) Everyone complains about spam, but we all still check our email pretty often. Everyone hates gridlock, but that doesn't stop you from driving, does it? And no matter how many people whine about the numerous evils perpetrated by the monolithic empire that is Wal-Mart, I think I know where most of you are gonna go next time you realize you need to do some last-minute shopping. :lol:
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brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
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Well, what I initially began this topic to address was that Walmart is becoming so large that it is unfairly driving out other businesses, who can't possibly compete.
I think big stores and chains are generally a good thing. It provides jobs and stability in their given industry. But it becomes a problem when they are so large that they are unfairly driving out competitors who offer reasonable prices, but can't possibly match the low prices of Walmart.
The "toy wars" that have killed FAO Schwarz, and have badly wounded Toys-R-Us are a good example.
Another example is the Walmart Superstores that are now gutting the grocery industry.
When an industry is driving DOWN the standard of living of its employees and pushing jobs out of the U.S., then it has arguably ceased to be good for the economy and the country.
When these conditions existed 100 years ago, anti-trust laws were established. As the initial article in my opening post points out (while also giving a balanced perspective to the pro-Walmart position) the government attitude now, under both Clinton and G.W. Bush, is much more pro-trust.
I feel the same way about Microsoft. In a way Microsoft was good, because it created a very universally used Windows operating system. But after that, they abused their power and used their power and leverage to suppress competition. And as the PBS report makes clear, a lot of high-wage Microsoft jobs are now in India as well.
In a way, I think if U.S. companies didn't offshore their manufacturing and high-tech jobs, they might have lost the business anyway, and then some other nation would have the business instead of U.S. companies, so having offshore business might be the only alternative to losing the business altogether.
But I can't help thinking that if either the Clinton or Bush administrations had said we won't permit this, that those millions of jobs would still be in the U.S.
If you allow one company in an industry to use cheap foreign labor, then all its competitors end up having to do the same. If they lost the incentive to offshore business, with tarriffs or other penalties, then they might be more inclined to stick with American labor and not start a price war that forces all competing manufacturers to use third-world labor.
Something that should be enacted is a law that says if a company lays off American workers and takes thoose jobs overseas, they should be required to re-train laborers and high-tech workers so they can move to alternative in-demand jobs, instead of flipping burgers and stocking shelves at a fraction of their former wages.
I've seen documentaries about Europe's economy that show a greater investment in workers and industry, to insure when a major shift in industry occurs, their workforce isn't left to twist in the wind.
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Very well spoken, Dave!! As a former part-time Toys R Us associate for 10 yrs. (hated to give that job up, the discounts supported my action figure and video game addictions, but the new tax bracket I was in made it a necessity), I lived through those "toy wars" and IMHO TRU still has not fully recovered yet!! Especially once you fact in Target and the online stores that carry a more diverse line of product as well!!
Also everything you said was sad but true!! But conversely, where would OUR economy be right now without the Walmarts and Microsofts of the world?!!
Makes you stop and appreciate them regardless of their faults and shortcuts!!
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Here in So. Cal with the grocery Union strike, Wal Mart has been literally on the front page of local news as the rationale of the Grocery companies for wanting concessions and a lower pay scale for their associates is (according to the companies) on account of having to compete with the coming Wal Mart superstores. I wish I had a few articles published that showed the literal misery that accompanies Wal Mart's low prices in places like Honduras and China. It's not just the loss of manufacturing jobs in America that is the result of Wal Mart's quest for lower and lower prices, but it also accounts for the lowering of an already dismal pay scale in the third world as Wal Mart threatens to take their buisness elsewhere if places like Honduras cannot accomadate their demands for more goods at cheaper and cheaper prices. What that entails is even less pay, more layoffs and more work for people that already toil for peanuts at 10 to 12 hours per day. I dunno... in my opinion, it's the new slavery. To have people in other countries earning 10 bucks or so a month to bring people cheap toys and shirts. And as far as i'm concerned, the price of that cheap shirt is waaaay too expensive when you consider that for a few bucks more out of your pocket, perhaps an AMERICAN could be employed making your garments or furniture rather than them um...working at Wal-Mart stocking chineese goods at $6.50 an hour. I havent had time to actually read each and every post as I'm just back from a few days offline (some SOB with a trojan pretty much sabatoged my comp & am just getting it back from Fry's Electronics). I did notice someone mentioned the toy wars. On that note, I did find an article on toy making chineese labor. quote:
December 19, 2003
COMMENTARY
Some Dissembling Required
Truth is, Christmas joy brought by Santa's toys probably comes courtesy of Chinese sweatshop labor.
By Beth Joyner Waldron, Beth Joyner Waldron is a public policy analyst and writer in Chapel Hill, N.C.
Santa's ear was bent pretty hard listening to my 4-year-old son's extensive Christmas wish list.
Like many parents this time of year, I wouldn't dare bring disappointment to those puppy-dog eyes so filled with the sugarplum fantasy of Santa's darling elves happily crafting toys for good little girls and boys.
So on Christmas Eve, I will surely find myself slipping those long-dreamed-of toys under the tree.
But my holiday cheer will be tempered by the knowledge that Santa's toys will not have been lovingly made at a North Pole workshop but rather quite probably in an overseas sweatshop.
Toymaking is big business, accounting for an astounding one-tenth of the world's total trade volume, according to the International Council for Toy Industries.
Americans must surely love toys because we spend an average of $405 per child annually, according to the Toy Industry Assn. There are almost 1.7 billion children under age 14 worldwide, with only 4% of those living in the U.S. And yet 37% of all toy retail sales take place in the U.S.
Look closely on any mass-produced toy and you are likely to find a "Made in China" logo. That's because, as the China Toy Assn. likes to boast in its trade publications, 75% of the world's toys are manufactured in China. China is now the largest single supplier of toys to U.S. children. In 2002, the U.S. imported $17 billion in toys — and just over $12 billion of that came from China.
China dominates the toy industry because of its comparatively low production costs. American toy workers on a production line average $11 an hour, while their Chinese counterparts earn a meager 30 cents an hour.
It is not surprising, then, that in the ever-present quest for low-cost production, toymaking has migrated overseas. Unfortunately, poor working conditions are often associated with low-wage labor.
Overseas factories have long attracted the attention of international human rights organizations, which in past years have publicized widespread sweatshop working conditions and the use of child and forced labor within China.
One such organization, the U.S.-based National Labor Committee, released a report last year that detailed abuses within China's toy industry. The group investigated eight large toy companies that operated 19 factories and employed more than 50,000 workers in the Guangdong province of China.
Among the disturbing findings that turned up in the investigation:
• Mandatory daily work shifts of 15 to 16 1/2 hours, with 20-hour shifts during the peak holiday production season. In one stuffed-toy factory, people were found working shifts of 27 straight hours. Many workers were required to work seven-day workweeks, some allowed to take only two days off a month.
• Workers in the surveyed factories made 12 cents to 14 cents an hour, with a mere $8.42 being earned for a 72 1/4-hour workweek.
• Workers were found handling toxic chemical glues, paints and solvents without adequate safety protection in factories where the temperatures rose to over 100 degrees.
The International Council for Toy Industries, an umbrella trade group representing the toy associations of 19 countries, is trying to address the sweatshop problem. It provides certification to manufacturing facilities in member countries that comply with a standardized code of business conduct. The idea behind the program is that trade group members conduct business only with certified factories.
The concept is noble, but the council's program is still in its infancy and loopholes abound, making it easy for manufacturers to sidestep the inspection process.
Until major corporate retailers and importers take a more active role in ensuring that the toys they contract for are made without sweatshop labor, substantive reform of the toy industry is wishful thinking.
So what's a well-intentioned parent like me to do when shopping for toys during this festive time of year? Not much.
Like so many parents, I want to make my son happy on Christmas morning. And yet I know that his privileged joy may be coming at the cruel expense of toy workers halfway around the globe.
In this scenario, the magic of what carols tout as "the most wonderful time of the year" is easily lost.
True, the article isn't related to Wal Mart in particular but it is representative of what is now called "The Wal-Mart-ization of America"
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