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Judge Roy Moor, the Alabama judge who fought to keep the 10 comandments monument in the Alabama court house has suffered the same fate as the monument he held so dear...
You thoughts and opinions?
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Judges need to follow the rules. The Bible actually tells you to follow your government's laws, doesn't it?
Anyway I'm guessing the announcement next week is that he's running for office.
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quote:
James Dobson:
"In their hypocrisy, they ignore the fact that there are three depictions of the Ten Commandments and Moses in the U.S. Supreme Court building itself. Each day is opened with the phrase, 'God save the United States and this honorable court.' References to God abound all over Washington, yet the liberal judges choose to look past these historic acknowledgements of the Creator...
He has a point. If the Ten Commandments in front of the courthouse is a breach of Seperation of Church and State, then all the other mentions of god should be taken away from all forms of Government properties.
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Plus, no more lines from Bushie like "God bless America" and "God save America".
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self-serving asshole.
He tries to portray himself as some prophecy-like persecuted christian of the latter days for having to "deny christ" when in fact the only reason he's standing without a job is because he himself chose to impose his religion on others in a state building in violation of the Constitution he is sworn to uphold.
No one is asking him to 'deny Christ'. What they are asking of him is to not shove it down the throats of everyone else in violation of the U.S. Constitution.
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I wouldn't say, "He was shoving it down there throats," it was just a bloody sign, people don't need to pay attention. Like the "under God" incident. Though, I do think he should have just followed orders. I can't really tell if he did this for publicity or to promote his religion; either way, it doesn't matter.
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I suspect he's a little of both.
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I agree with G-Man. Some of each.
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OK, I'm gonna add a couple of things to ponder while discussing this
1: The 5,000 pound 10 commandments monument is brand new and was put there by Roy Moore who ran as the 10 commandments judge
1b: The monument has a copyright mark baring Moore's name
2: In the Supreme court there is a monument depicting "great" law givers throughout history. In addition to Moses and the 10 commandments Mohamed is also depicted.
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I'd be more inclined to cynicism about Moore's motives, if I hadn't seen him speak at length on several occasions. He strikes me as a man of exceptional integrity and conviction. He has been adamant about displaying the Ten Commandmants in his court room since the beginning of his career as a judge, and has fought several battles to do so. He COULD back off and obey the court order to remove the Ten Commandments monument, but then his point would not be made. I admire his firm stand for his convictions, even to the point that it lost him his position on the Alabama Supreme Court. I don't think displaying the Ten Commandments "sells" or promotes Christianity in a public forum. The display simply acknowledges the source from which all law comes. And in particular, the Christian foundation on which all AMERICAN law comes. Some choice quotes from the Wordnet Daily article: quote:
A recent poll indicated 79 percent of Alabamians want Moore to complete his term as chief justice, which expires in 2006.
So it's once again a decision of an elite, that usurps the will of the vast majority.
quote:
One backer was Flip Benham – head of the pro-life group Operation Rescue and of Operation Save America – who said Moore's resistance of "those who are breaking the law" is the initiation of a "second American Revolution."
Benham declared Moore "has done more to remind this country of her biblical roots, and the ethical, moral, and legal foundations than any other person in the past 50 years."
Consistent with my point, it is a press toward acknowledgement of the source of American law and ideals (the Bible and biblical principles), and not a step toward a state-imposed religion.
quote:
In Huntsville, Patrick Mahoney, director of the Christian Defense Coalition in Washington, D.C., urged the crowd to oppose the decision not to air the trial proceedings on television or radio.
"Every citizen of Alabama needs to hear" the proceedings, Mahoney said, according to the Huntsville Times.
"It's tragic that your chief justice is [being prosecuted] for simply honoring God and posting the Ten Commandments."
"The posting of the Commandments unites Americans –-77 percent of Americans believe it should be posted."
Organizer Rob Schenk said the purpose of the tour, which concluded yesterday in front of the judicial building in Montgomery, was to "bring the principles at stake here into the public arena once again."
I'm not wild about something that an overwhelming majority of the Alabama public supports, being decided against behind closed doors.
quote:
Schenk said he was most concerned about upholding the right of Americans "to acknowledge the sovereignty of God over our land." "Secular nations have one thing in common – mass graves, and the reason is that they believe the government is the final arbiter of right and wrong and good and evil," he said.
This too is consistent with the writings of those who drafted and signed the Declaration and Constitution.
Our founding fathers believed that the reason no previous democracy had succeeded was the absence of Christian principles. And they believed that it was only Christian principles, and the teaching of them in our schools, that would ensure the health of American democracy.
I think things such as the rise of shootings in our schools, drugs, teen pregnancy, spiking drug use, extreme promiscuous sex and other factors --arguably, escalating chaos in our society-- make Moore's call for an acknowledgement of Biblical principles as the historic base of our law and society, a much-needed step back AWAY from that chaos.
And would result in our society as a whole thinking about a standard other than "anything goes", as has been increasingly occurring over the last 40 years.
Not necessarily an entirely Christian standard, but one that looks higher than the last few decades of unrestrained consumerism and instant gratification have.
I think we saw a glimmer of this thought toward a higher purpose, a national purpose, in the immediate wake of September 11th.
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quote:
Originally posted by Stupid Dogg:
quote:
James Dobson:
"In their hypocrisy, they ignore the fact that there are three depictions of the Ten Commandments and Moses in the U.S. Supreme Court building itself. Each day is opened with the phrase, 'God save the United States and this honorable court.' References to God abound all over Washington, yet the liberal judges choose to look past these historic acknowledgements of the Creator...
He has a point. If the Ten Commandments in front of the courthouse is a breach of Seperation of Church and State, then all the other mentions of god should be taken away from all forms of Government properties.
thats the ultimate issue.
court houses, schools, pledges ... they're all being de-godded. by the time i have kids, the dollar won't mention god. ... hell(!!), by the time my kids have kids, churches wont mention god.
all these things are ridiculous steps, increasingly inching towards a world that can not offend anyone. pc phrases, leaders, tv shows, tshirts, etc.
how can you have "freedom of religion," then be told how to have it? the "church and state" argument, as far as i know, doesn't hold up, cuz he wasn't forcing the commandments upon anyone anymore than his driving a corolla to the court parking lot was forcing toyota on anyone.
however...
all that said, the bottom line is, if you're an employee, and your boss says to do something... thems the breaks.
if he (or she or they) says no god statues, no bicycle shorts, no eyebrow piercing, no sex changes, no yellow paper usage, or no red sox fans... you have a choice: fall in line or move on.
or, if you want to have yer cake and eat it too, you have to go about things via the proper channels (discussing it, getting a lawyer, awaiting a trial judgement, whatever). if he didn't do that (as a judge, no less) then he's in the wrong, regardless of what his cause is.
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I was later told that the statue had some sort of Christian notation somewhere. Now, Jesus Christ may have defeated death for our salvation, but he did not contribute to the history of law. Which does explain why lawyers seem so satonic. ![[wink]](images/icons/wink.gif) While I wouldn't mind Moses or the 10 Commandments being displayed (most history books consider the Commandments a part of law history), having anything with Jesus wouldn't make any sense. I don't think Moore is self-serving asshole, but a man of God follows 'the law of the land' (I think that's a Bible passage).
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quote:
Originally posted by Cowgirl Jack:
Now, Jesus Christ may have defeated death for our salvation, but he did not contribute to the history of law.
"i might not know what this... magical talking stick is, or, how you utilize those gigantic steel birds to travel upon. ... i'm just a simple caveman, unfrozen by some of today's most brilliant scientists. and though i don't know much about technology, what i do know is that my client is innocent!"
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
court houses, schools, pledges ... they're all being de-godded. by the time i have kids, the dollar won't mention god. ... hell(!!), by the time my kids have kids, churches wont mention god.
court houses and public schools shouldn't be in the religion buisness in the 1st place. That is unless you want a theocracy instead of a representative democracy.
quote:
all these things are ridiculous steps, increasingly inching towards a world that can not offend anyone. pc phrases, leaders, tv shows, tshirts, etc.
how can you have "freedom of religion," then be told how to have it? the "church and state" argument, as far as i know, doesn't hold up, cuz he wasn't forcing the commandments upon anyone anymore than his driving a corolla to the court parking lot was forcing toyota on anyone.
It's not about trying to drive God away from America. The day that churches are told what to say is the day you no longer have any actual freedom. No one is going after any churches here people!
Again, unless we want to become a theocracy, no one is saying that what is said or displayed in a church will be taken away. However, a government building that is there for people of all faiths or no faith for that matter is not the place to make a stand of your particular beleif.
quote:
however...
all that said, the bottom line is, if you're an employee, and your boss says to do something... thems the breaks.
if he (or she or they) says no god statues, no bicycle shorts, no eyebrow piercing, no sex changes, no yellow paper usage, or no red sox fans... you have a choice: fall in line or move on.
or, if you want to have yer cake and eat it too, you have to go about things via the proper channels (discussing it, getting a lawyer, awaiting a trial judgement, whatever). if he didn't do that (as a judge, no less) then he's in the wrong, regardless of what his cause is.
Well, it's not so much his boss saying so but the law saying so.
I just saw the good judge on CNN saying that he's being persecuted for his faith. ![[yuh huh]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif)
No, he's being 'persecuted ' for being the Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court and not being able to understand the concept of seperation of church and state.
Still, from looking at some of the pollls out there, most of the population of Alabama can't understand the Constitution either so it bodes well for him if he seeks higher office there.
It's amazing how we can criticize places like Afghanistan for having theocracies that impose the majority religion on everyone whether they like it or not and then not see the connection to what all these activist "christians" in the moral majority want for America.
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Hmmm I actually have some thoughts on this subject (and let me make it clear that I write in a state of utter drunkeness, which of course is the state where you often get your most enlightened thoughts..... or something...) Anyway, in a country where the declaration fo independence state that everyone has the right to pursue one's own choice of religion (it does state that, right??) it seems wrong that the jugdes would want to base their judgements on the codes from one religion, in that way the Sharia would be equally good??? Both the commandments and the sharia is claimed to be the laws of God?? Of course the laws in most western countries originates from the principles of the Bible, but in my eyes there's not much difference to judge by the laws written in the Bible (and they can be as harsh as they get) is as bad as judging from the Sharia.... ![[eh... i dunno... ]](graemlins/ehidunno.gif)
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quote:
Originally posted by Trinamus:
is as bad as judging from the Sharia....
she looks hot as hell in her "Man I feel like a woman" video!
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http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35602 quote:
QURAN DISPLAYED AT N.Y.P.D. HEADQUARTERS
Placement of Muslim book under glass arranged by Muslim chaplain
Posted: November 14, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2003 WorldNetDaily.com
While former Alabama Justice Roy Moore has been removed from office due to controversy surrounding a religious display in a public building, the New York City Police Department is displaying a copy of the Muslim Quran in the lobby of its headquarters.
According to Newsday, the holy book was placed in a glass cube atop a brass pedestal at the beginning of the Muslim month of Ramadan, which began Oct. 27. The display is featured near the Hall of Heroes and is placed in front of the official police seal.
Donna Lieberman, the New York Civil Liberties Union executive director, warned against government promotion of religion, saying the Quran display likely violates the Constitution.
"I think that the government, including the Police Department, cannot engage in religious promotion," she told the paper. "There's a vast difference between promoting religion and in educating police officers about religions so that they understand and are sensitive to various values and beliefs."
Continued Lieberman: "It is not always clear where the line is drawn. But when the government engages in promoting religion, that crosses the line."
According to the report, the NYPD has eight chaplains of various faiths.
One of those chaplains, Imam Izak-El Mu'eed Pasha, spearheaded installation of the Quran display. He told Newsday police work makes religion a central part of police life.
"By the nature of the job, they have to have some faith," he told the paper. "There's no way to do it without having faith."
Pasha said it would be "wrong" for the department to prohibit such a display based on church-state separation concerns.
"Without them having faith I think you would have a different police department that probably would not be able to serve all its people in the best way," he is quoted as saying.
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Again, seperation of church and state.
I can't understand why some people can't go thru their day without having to proselytize their faith and erect monuments for everyone around them, especially in government buildings where it's clearly prohibited.
"Gee, here's my Ten Commandments, my Quaran. I only need place them here where everyone can see as so they can see the light and be instantly enlightened."
Some people really are stuck in some mideavel theocratic mindset. And we think they're fanatical and unreasonable in the mideast.
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On this same note, we have a High School with the devout feeling persecuted for not being allowed to impose their beleifs on the entire student body. quote:
November 15, 2003
Students Strike Selfish Pose
Just think how much more money schools could spend on educating children if they weren't besieged by lawsuits from parents seething because they and their children weren't given their own way.
The families of the Brothers and Sisters in Christ club at Fountain Valley High School might want to consider that as they demand that the school allow a dozen or so club members to trumpet their religious beliefs in a photo of the graduating class — or face costly litigation. This particular snit outdoes even the parents who sue over a student's well-deserved D in class.
As they pondered what to wear for the official senior class photo, spread across two pages of the high school yearbook, the students came up with the idea of wearing coordinated T-shirts that, placed next to each other, spelled out such religious messages as "Jesus {heart} U." Spread across so many students in great big letters in the front row, the message would have been the dominant visual theme of the photo. In essence, it would have served as a Christian-themed banner implying that it applied to all 650 students, who are from various backgrounds and many religious beliefs.
That's downright rude, attempting to take over a photo that belongs to every senior. And it's illegal. The school district cannot allow a religious belief to be imposed on its students, especially not in an official photo. How would these kids like it if a group of students stood up front spelling out, "We All Believe There Is No God"?
But when the vice principal tried a few conciliatory suggestions — that the students separate themselves from each other or move farther back — the teens acted with all the grace of a thwarted 2-year-old. They walked away, and their parents demanded a re-shoot, with the kids dressed as they wanted, arranged as they wanted to be.
Just as the U.S. Constitution protects the right of those students to meet privately at school, or wear individual T-shirts expressing their beliefs, it protects other students from having the club's beliefs pushed upon them. The Constitution does not, however, have anything to say on the subject of teenagers getting to demand exactly where they will pose themselves at school.
The school district should hold its ground. And the courts should make quick work of any lawsuit that might result, quickly dumping it and awarding legal costs to the school district to discourage any other small group of students from trying to diminish the religious rights of others.
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That's just silliness, I'd hardly hold that up as an example saying "this is how all Christians are."
First of all, I'd object to their tarnishing the senior picture with an "I [heart] Jesus" message, whether it said that or "I [heart] Britney Spears" or "I [heart] Bush" or "I [heart] Clinton".
It's just inappropriate, in any circumstance, in a formal high school class photo.
It's like if Bush showed up to give his State of the Union address in an "I [heart] Jesus" t-shirt. It would be a tacky representation of Jesus, and would also interfere with the dignity and ceremony of the event.
There is a time and place for political and religious statements, and a graduation photo is clearly not the time.
This is something you can be a Christian and still see as inappropriate. It's not fair to say that "this is how Christians are", or that "all Christians support this action." Or even "many Christians".
Secondly, "I [heart] Jesus" is hardly a message of conversion. It's not proselyizing, or in any way selling or teaching a Christian ideology, Any more than saying "I like Pepsi" is forcing my tastes on, or intimidating, anyone who doesn't like Pepsi.
The case of Roy Moore building a monument for the Ten Commandments is a different situation altogether.
Roy Moore is making a far more serious point, that the Ten Commandments, and the Bible itself, are the basis of American law, and for drafting of our Constitution and government, emulating the contract between God and Man, written in the Old and New Testaments.
Roy Moore's point goes beyond simple religious freedom, and makes a point about our heritage, and the ideals of those who signed the Declaration and Constitution.
And even so, Moore's Ten Commandments monument is NOT an attempt to hard-sell conversion to Christianity, but simply to acknowledge the source of our laws, and in doing so press our nation to have more conscience toward the purpose and standards of what the U.S. as a nation is about. In an era where our nation is increasingly compass-less.
Displaying the Quran in a police station is a considerably harder sell. And permitting it is a clear double-standard.
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I'm not a big fan of Moore.  I mean, have you seen Live and Let Die?
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:lol: :lol: :lol:
We were talking Roy Moore, not Roger. Thanks for the levity, CJ, it's appreciated.
I actually like Roger Moore as Bond. I just saw Live and Let Die (Roger Moore's first Bond picture) again about 2 months ago.
That was also the first film role for Jane Seymour, who for my money is one of the hottest Bond women ever.
It also has a great song by Paul McCartney and Wings.
I think Live and Let Die was the best action movie of its time in the 70's, up until [i]Raiders of the Lost Ark in 1981, which I think now ranks as the best action movie ever.
Moore had a great run for awhile after, in Man With the Golden Gun(1974), The Spy Who Loved Me, and Moonraker(1979).
In For Your Eyes Only (1981), Moore was getting a little old for the role, and the story was pretty lame as well. But Moore came back with one last great movie in Octopussy(1983).
I think Sean Connery is the ultimate Bond, though, and my favorite of his is From Russia With Love (1964), his second outing in the role.
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I'm going to post to this against my better judgemnet so here goes... Whomod, what Rob was doing was using an example, kind of. It's that first this, then that, then what? If the 10 Commandments can't be displayed outside a building, and people want to take "under God" out of the pledge, then who's to stop them from saying, you can't talk about God in church? It's a very legitimate and scary thing that can easliy happen with the way this society's became so freaking scared of offending anyone that the whole pc movement hasn't helped matters, it's made them worse. This was something we were talking about at work just last week too. Don't try and tell me I'm wrong, I know it's true. I talk to the general public and just had this converstaion with a customer in CA the other day. She works for a company with a bunch of Jewish clients, forgot what kind of company, and told me that they're avoiding Christmas cards that have any religous conotation, even remotly. For instance, she passed on the Peace Dove card because it's a dove. There was another, more international card I suggested, but then remembered it says Merry Christmas in French, and that was a no go for her. I later noticed it says it in English as well, but you get the point. But the thing with that card is it also says Shalom, Kwasna, etc. It doesn't just say Merry Christmas, it's very international for different religions. But oh no! Don't want to offend anyone by sending them that. I'll be honest the whole nazi pc movment that's going on now ticks me off. People are so freaking afraid of offending people that we have to walk on eggshells, never knowing if just saying "bless you" when someone sneezes will elicit violent behavior. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for being respectful and not calling people derogitory names, etc, but come on!
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:
That's just silliness, I'd hardly hold that up as an example saying "this is how all Christians are."
Well, yeah, of course not. I never said that. I happen to be christian myself. It's just peole who insist on this kind of behavior gives all of us a bad name IMO.
As for "PC", yeah, i'll admit some people take it too far. Still, there is some good about ostracizing people for um..say, thinking it OK to call people negroes or niggers, beaners or wetbacks, fairies or faggots. "PC" IMO is whatever you want it to be. It's not some organized militant movement. It's more shifting societal norms and appropriate behavior that sometimes bothers people who are comfortable in their old and sometimes offesnsive ways.
The Christmas (or X-Mas ![[DOH!]](graemlins/homerface01.gif) ) card thing IMO does go too far seeing as how Christmas is SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT THE BIRTH OF CHRIST. So I agree with you there. Still, like the japaneese, we almost seem to be celebrating mass consumerism during the holidays rather than actually something sacred which is unfortunate. It's like the meaning is lost anyways. And people insisting on further obscuring it's origins (yes yes, I know all about it's pagan origins as well ![[who, me?]](graemlins/whome01.gif) ) from Madison Ave to Wall Street and down to Main Street is something I think we all need to reflect on more.
Still, none of this counters the seperation of church and state argument. A public school, a police precienct or a State Courthouse is not the place to try to make a religious stand. It's just plain rude to everyone else who beleives differently than you.
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Wow! A story close to home, this time...
Sorry to go off in a different direction about religion/government, but you guys have no idea about Moore.
I'm about to go off on a gay rant here.
He's a closet racist. He's as open about hating homosexuals as he can get. This Ten Commandments thing has made national news, but it's been going on like this for a while down here. For years we have has his personal religious convictions imposed on all of us.
In Slyacauga, a very nice man was tortured and murdered by some guys who didn't agree with his homosexual lifestyle.
Three children were being abused by their father, who was at the time, a drunk. But Moore deprived custody from their mother - who lived a very nice middle-class setting - because she lived with another woman. Moore didn't even take it into consideration that the children were being beaten on a regular basis, or that the father had a LONG police record.
In response, Judge Moore has publicly described the lives of gay and lesbian people as "abhorrent," "immoral," "detestable," an "inherent evil," "an intolerable evil." He condemns homosexuality as "so heinous that it defies one’s ability to describe it."
He wrote that the state must use "the power of the sword" — including the power of "execution"— to stop gays and lesbians from influencing our youth.
Sounds like Hitler. From a public official who wields power in the name of all people — whether they be believers or non-believers, straight or gay — it's not cool. But, the homophobes I know about are slightly less dangerous than the ones I don't.
He's constantly been on radio shows that are racist. He supports radio programs and groups that pass out papers that are racist. "Mongrel Race". Look it up.
That's us, down here in Alabama. One step forward, two steps back.
And it's all so stupid. Alabama's main concern shouldn't be this bullshit, it should tax reform.
Of course, you won't hear the majority of people here say that. We're right in the middle of the Bible Belt and that shit is LAW around here. God help us who aren't Christian white people.
This is not about the Constitution, or religion either, really. Moore is making this a platform to run for gov. It would have actually done him less good if he had been able to keep his position.
I have never had a problem with the Commandments. All I want is my freedom of choice, and the right to a fair trial. We weren't getting that with Moore. No, sir!
In the end, removing the Ten Commandments is a plus, ensuring we ALL get our dues.
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Sadly, i think some of not all the things you mentioned about Moore would be applauded by some of the people here.
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quote:
Originally posted by whomod:
court houses and public schools shouldn't be in the religion buisness in the 1st place. That is unless you want a theocracy instead of a representative democracy.
thats true, they shouldn't be in the religion business. but they also shouldn't be in the de-religion business (whose employees probably have the coolest looking cards!)
simplified example:
i have a problem with a teacher forcing his/her students to say a prayer. thats wrong. not just legally, but logically. god to one child is a different god to a different child, or a imaginary god to a third child.
however, i have a problem with a teacher forcing his/her student(s) to not say a prayer.
going further:
if a teacher has a crucifix on her desk (at a public school), thats not hurting anyone. however, we're at the point now where people (lawyers) are claiming that is hurting someone.
thus, teachers (or students, or employees, or whomever) are asked to remove said personal affects because it conflicts with the church/state ruling.
on her desk, she can still have a macintosh computer, a bic pen, a red lipstick, a marlboro cigarette, a dunkin donuts coffee, a cosmopolitan magazine, and a picture of her and her boyfriend.
but its the jesus cross is offensive and unallowed.
i find that grossly unfortunate.
please understand, i've not once made a theocratic statement, asking that any teacher or employee or whomever be given preferential and/or varied treatment based upon any religious perspective that they may have.
im just curious, and somewhat annoyed, that if a teacher wears a blue shirt with a crucifix on it its instantly taken as something different than just a blue shirt, or a blue shirt with a snoopy on it.
i can understand the ruling that the teacher (and im using teacher as my example here a lot, because its the easiest to point out) be unable to express or share or force or teach any sort of religious aspect to the kids. but i can't see how restricting her further is not an overbearing ruling with a gross confliction of freedoms.
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When I was in High school, it was a different problem. You'd be asked to go home or remove clothing that was offensive to religion. Such as the Dead Kennedy's t-shirt that shows christ on a cross of dollar bills. Not once did i ever see anyone ever have to remove cricifixes or stars of David necklaces or anything. So to me it sounds rather unbeleivable and paranoid.
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cobra kai 15000+ posts
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quote:
Originally posted by whomod:
When I was in High school, it was a different problem. You'd be asked to go home or remove clothing that was offensive to religion. Such as the Dead Kennedy's t-shirt that shows christ on a cross of dollar bills. Not once did i ever see anyone ever have to remove cricifixes or stars of David necklaces or anything. So to me it sounds rather unbeleivable and paranoid.
and yet it happens.
necklaces can be concealed, and thus might not be directly violating anything.
but plaques, desk ornamens, shirts, signs, window clings, stickers, etc... all can, and have, been removed. you hear about this type of stuff everyonce in a while on the news.
im not even religious (!) and yet, i can see this as an unnecessarily cumbersome ordeal.
its not paranoia -- its actuality.
20-30 years ago, no one would have thought the judge was doing anything wrong -- or, to better state, no one would have called him on it.
now, its a huge issue.
by the letter of the law, or at least the way its currently carried out, he's wrong.
5-10 years from now, those same letters could be carried further (as said before, the pledge, the court system of swearing in, our dollar... all could, and will, be next).
its not the ruling i'm upset with, its the rule, itself.
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Thank you, Rob. It's all about drawing the line between what really IS offensive and people taking advantage to twist that with preferences.
Money shouldn't be such a bad issue, but it will be, the way things are going. The difference between the courts and schools with religion and money with religious printing - no one's asking you to believe or disbelieve with said money. It's decoration. It all spends the same. But basing the outcome of a trial on your religious upbringing isn't right. A judge giving you a verdict based on your religious beliefs is unfair and outdated.
It was never about the Ten Commandments with Roy Moore. Nowhere does it say "Thou shalt be WHITE" and "Thou shalt be straight" - but doesn't it say "Love Thy Neighbor"? The Ten Commandments are a good tool for RIGHT AND WRONG.
If Moore wasn't the asshole he is, then the thing would never have been brought to attention anyway, and no one would have had a problem with it. Just as PC people tend to push a little too hard and seem to "impose" just as much, this was something that needed to be done.
I'd wish we'd get some kewl middle ground people. Who knows - with today's children and the way they are seeing things as they grow up (example - Racism is shrinking more and more)...maybe it will happen soon.
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OK the correct answer is.....Self sreving ass hole!
The reason I say this is because as a conservitive I oppose judicial activism, but because I'm consistant I oppose it from the right as well.
On the issue of the seperation of church and state (asside from the fact that the term appears no where in the constitution) the seperation isn't an attemt to have Athiesm or secular humanism instituted as the official religion of the US, but rather to prevent the the country from establishing a state church or denomination. Mentioning God doesn't endorse a specific religion. Nor does exibiting a 10 commandments that have been in place for a long time without offending anyone.
To who ever it was who said that the schools shouldn't be in the religion buisiness... They already are, If you teach that the world has developed without God. That is a religious statement.
Now here's a question on consistancy for all you lefties. Are you equally offended by the obelisk on the washington mall or the Greek goddess holding the scales of justice in front of many couts or the recent state sponsered monument to AIDS victim feturing the aztec god Quetzalcoatl or Mohomed depicted in the supreme court building? or any of the other miriad of non judeo / christian religious symbols that are everywhere in America?
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Don't forget the monuments to that little cult, freemasonry that abound all over Washington and even on our money.
I just want clarification on that last staement about schools making a "religious statement" about the world developing without God. I'm assuming you're referring to the creation of the Universe and to evolotion. I would just say that you're talking about science. And science isn't a religion. As a matter of fact, history has shown us that religion (not mentioning any particularly offending sects of Christianity, mind you) has been somewhat of an impediment to science and reason.
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I may be getting a bit off topic here, but I thought it was a good time to bring this up.
I attend services at the Hillel at the University of Miami (I don't go to the school - I just go to the Hillel religious services because it's a place to pray and study Judaism with people my own age.) The rabbi there isn't much older than I am, which means he can relate to many of us and actually understnads what it's like growing up Jewish and maintaing a Jewish identity in a society like ours.
Anyway, during Rosh Hashanah services, somebody brought up the following: in modern American society, especially after 9/11, he had noticed that generally, when people want to get back in touch with their faith and become more religious, others look at them like they're crazy. The rabbi responded that religion is designed to help you become a better person, and if someone thinks you're a kook for wanting to be better than you are and for following a moral code, then that other guy is the real kook. Maybe some of the traditions of the religion may raise an eyebrow here and there, but the true core of religion is helping ourselves to become good people. To consider the desire to be a good person a sign of lunacy is in itself lunacy (did that make sense?)
Like I said, it doesn't have much to do with the topic at hand, but I thought it was interesting to bring up.
Thoughts?
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brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
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That's why I'm annoyed with all this pressure to totally secularize our society. Which began with taking prayer out of schools in 1963, and has snowballed from there.
Secularists were concerned that there was peer pressure for atheists to pray.
Now there is pressure for those with religious beliefs to NOT pray, and those who openly practice Christianity, Judaism or whatever are scorned and ridiculed. Conventional wisdom now is that anyone who practices religion is ignorant. And that's wrong. We've become a society with no standards, or at best, moral relativism.
That is not "freedom of religion" that is just the pendulum swinging the other way. Where the pressure now is to NOT have religious beliefs. Or at least not to voice them around your peers.
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quote:
I would just say that you're talking about science. And science isn't a religion. As a matter of fact, history has shown us that religion (not mentioning any particularly offending sects of Christianity, mind you) has been somewhat of an impediment to science and reason.
Fine, fine. I don't want to get into the debate as to wether science and religion are mutually exclusive (oviously I dissagree, but we can have that conversation later), but basically what you're saying is that it's OK to teach that there is NO God (or at least if there is a Gog he's uninvolved with the world), but it's not OK to teach that there is a God who is involved in the world and it's history. That is a religious statement and if you say that schools must teach a specific view of God aren't you in effect saying that the state should sponser that religious view and no other? (state sponsered religion)
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I have no problem with a school teaching about God...hell, they can open a BIBLE class as far as I'm concerned.
Pray all you want - As long as they give students the right to OPT OUT, as well, and/or give other students of different religion the opportunity to pray to their deities.
It shouldn't be about less, it should be about MORE.
Open the schools an hour earlier for prayer services and watch everyone's tone change.
Things like this are not a problem when it's an OPTION. It's a problem when it's REQUIRED.
When it's MANDATORY that you follow God and the Bible to get a fair trial in America, the same trial for someone who doesn't practice the laws of the Bible as someone who does practice them, then something is wrong.
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I just got this email and couldn't help thinking about this thread the whole time I read it. It says a lot and it says it all at the same time... quote:
A Short Essay
Samuel Thompson wrote: I don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going to sue somebody for singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December.
I don't agree with Darwin but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer when my high school teacher taught his theory of evolution.
Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness will not be endangered because someone says a 30 second prayer before a football game. So what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there reading the entire book of Acts.
They're just talking to a God they believe in and asking him to grant safety to the players on the field and the fans going home from the game.
"But it's a Christian prayer," some will argue. Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country founded on Christian principles.
According to our very own phone book, Christian churches outnumber all others better than 200-to-1. So what would you expect -- somebody
chanting Hare Krishna?
If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a Jewish prayer. If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer. If I went to a ping pong match in China, I would expect to hear someone pray to Buddha. And I wouldn't be offended. It wouldn't bother me one bit. When in Rome...
But what about the atheists?" is another argument. What about them?
Nobody is asking them to be baptized. We're not going to pass the collection plate. Just humor us for 30 seconds. If that's asking too much, bring a Walkman or a pair of ear plugs. Go to the bathroom. Visit the concession stand. Call your lawyer. Unfortunately, one or two will make that call.
One or two will tell thousands what they can and cannot do. I don't think a short prayer at a football game is going to shake the world's foundations.
Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other cheek while our courts strip us of all our rights.
Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray before we go to sleep. Our Bible tells us just to pray without ceasing.
Now a handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying.
God, help us. And if that last sentence offends you, well..........just sue me.
The silent majority has been silent too long... it's time we let that one or two who scream loud enough to be heard, that the vast majority don't
care what they want... it is time the majority rules.
It's time we tell them, you don't have to pray.. you don't have to say the pledge of allegiance, you don't have to believe in God or attend services that honor Him. That is your right, and we will honor your right... but by golly you are no longer going to take our rights away... we are fighting back... and we WILL WIN!
After all the God you have the right to denounce is on our side! God bless us one and all, especially those who denounce Him...
God bless America, despite all her faults.. still the greatest nation of all.....
God bless our service men who are fighting to protect our right to pray and worship God....
May 2004 be the year the silent majority is heard and we put God back as the foundation of our families and institutions. Keep looking up.... In God WE Trust If you agree with this, please pass it on. If not, delete it!!
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quote:
Originally posted by Batwoman:
I just got this email and couldn't help thinking about this thread the whole time I read it. It says a lot and it says it all at the same time...
quote:
A Short Essay
....
....
....
It's time we tell them, you don't have to pray.. you don't have to say the pledge of allegiance, you don't have to believe in God or attend services that honor Him. That is your right, and we will honor your right... but by golly you are no longer going to take our rights away... we are fighting back... and we WILL WIN!
........
And that's the only problem I have with that article, as that's not always true. Really, that's all I want.
Moore believes different.
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