RKMBs Forums .::Important::. Politics and Current Events the death penalty

with the case of timmothy mcveigh hogging the news spotlight every day for the past month or so, what are your thoughts on this, the harshest of penalties?

Take Jeffrey Dahmer for instance. I don't recall if he was on Death Row or not (I don't think he was), but he was made to suffer every single day that he was in prison by his fellow inmates, up until the day he was killed. I think something like that is much harsher than telling Timoth McVeigh "Here is your cell, you will be left alone until the day you die. Nobody will touch you, nobody will be able to hurt you. Congratulations, any guilt you may feel will be gone shortly..." I'd rather see him thrown out into the general population where he will be somebody's bitch for the next 40 or 50 years...

Zat es all...

1) for starters, i dont get the idea of killing someone because they, say, killed someone else. just seems like backwards logic, and that makes the judge / jury as morally wrong as the killer in question (and, perhaps even worse if the sentance is passed for something other than murder -- tho im not even sure if thats possible).

2) the supporting claim that its "quicker and cheaper" is also wrong, as the sentance usually takes quite a few years to pass thru, as well as MILLIONS in law / court expenses, tying up the legal system even further.

3) to me... like rufie says, it seems like a quick escape. you do somethin wrong, they kill ya. quick, done. i think its a harsher crime to know that a 30 year old man could spend 70, even 80 years, well over 25,000 days, in the same room! day in, day out, over and over, he's trapped, encaged like an animal left with nothing but guilt and remorse for the rest of those days.

plus, the extra added benefit of having the crap kicked outta you (or raped into you) on an hourly basis.

certainly sounds like a more painful, more horrible hell to me.

When someone receives the death penalty the appeal process needs to be seriously speeded up. Years and years on death row is ridiculous. One year tops and then fry them PUBLICLY. Another deterrent. I wouldn't even mind putting them to death the same way they killed others. Susan Smith drowned her children? Put her in a car and roll her in and out of a river a dozen times before actually leaving her in for the final time. Dumb bitch. Killing her children because of a man.

Up here in Chicago, they suspended the death penalty two years ago because they found too many people on death row were walking out because new evidence proved their innocence. As a matter of fact, the police dept I work for (and several of the people who I work with, and consider good friends) were involved in a similar case several years ago...

Could you send somebody to death knowing that there is the slimmest possibility that he is innocent?

The prisons in the UK look like frucking holiday camps, maybe if they were to get chaingangs agin but with the present system, Murderes don't deserve to be on the planet.

Rufie, brings up Dahmer, his execution/murder in prison would unfortunatley never happen in the UK and that bugger certainly deserved to die!

If somebody killed a loved one of mine, I think I would feel much better knowing that he will spend the next forty of fifty years of his life being passed around like a drunk soriety girl then him getting a chance to "escape" after only a year or two of punishment...

Course, then again, I think that torture should be allowed in prison also, but that's that's a whole 'nother mess...

In the UK, some tossface will get 20 years for morder but be let out in 8!

What's that all about?

Those fruckin' Brits!!!

tho my argument is definitely in favor for prison, and NOT in favor of the death penalty... im referring to alcatraz and other such hell hole prisons.

the prison on, say, "oz," is beautiful (other than all that man rape stuff). id KILL to have lived there as opposed to my shitty college dormitory (which cost nearly 10 g's a year).

there's some warder, i believe in california, who has the right idea. amongst other indignifying techniques, he's implemented the idea of bringing back the ball & shackle tecnhique (where that canon ball thing is chained to your ankle). he also likes the idea of making all of the inmates where pink and frilly jump suits, instead of the traditional bright orange ones. this way, they're frickin humiliated on a daily basis (and, also adding to their man-rape appeal, from the other inmates).

Actually, I like what they've done in Marion in Downstate Illinois. The inmates there have been on lockdown for something like six straight years. I think they only get something like 15 or 30 minutes a day out of their cells. The rest of the time they just sit there and rot. Seems to be working so far...

true, prisons might be overcrowded... but... im thinkin "so what." as long as the cops and the surrounding town are safe, i dont really care if the convicts are comfortable. that is, of course, if they're the murdering, raping, child molesting type (which, i feel, are vastly different from the theft, or other relatively tame crimes).

batty:

i definitely agree. its obviously something they hate (hated) doing. and, hopefully, will work in keeping them from doing it again (supposedly, the original point of prison!)

Any sugestions?

However from a logical view I would have to say NO. Our legal system is so fucked up that those who werent wealthy enough would be getting the chair while clebrites and such would get off scott free because of a legal loophole.

And MR Batty we have the same problem with early release. Funny enough a murderer sentenced to 20 years will probably do about 8 years. While someone convicted of a drug related crime gets no chance of early release. There is no JUSTICE in our LEGAL systems.

quite a few victims' parents watched.

did vengence work?

I was wondering when they send the victims parents were able to view the video of McVeigh dying, what would that prove?

Actually I was scheduled on the night shift at the hospitals and some patients wanted to get up early to see it on TV now THATS SICK!

On the one hand, I believe that if a person has the balls to arbitrarily snuff out another's existence, then that person has forfeited all rights to being a human being and should be put down like a rabid animal...preferably in as vicious and cruel manner as possible.

On the other hand, if that person were to be imprisoned for the rest of his life in a cell the size of a porta-potty, not be allowed any human contact or any reasonable human comfort, would he not suffer more than a quick death?

Unfortunately, neither of those are options are available in our legal system.

I guess I have to say I'm for the death penalty. I can't see why the tax dollars of the family of the murder's victim(s)or any of the rest of us should have to go towards feeding him housing him, caring for his illnesses...just keeping him alive in general.

Regardless of the murder's quality of life in prison, the fact remains that HE STILL HAS HIS LIFE. That's something his victims can never have.

Not a perfect solution but, I'd have to think it would give his victim's families some sort of comfort knowing that the person responsible for the death of their loved one is no longer drawing breath on this earth.

bastie:

(welcome here, btw), the tax argument is a good one to make, but its, oddly, in the other direction the -- the dollar situation is actually reversed, as more money goes into killing someone than into preserving him (and thats solely due to our legal system. good or bad, it has to check, double check, re check, and check again, just to make sure, which ends up costing a fortune).

even in a case like mcveigh's, where he more or less professed all guilt and accepted his sentance long before it was passed, it still took nearly 5 years, and countless trials, for everything to go thru.

michael, franta:

exactly my point. even in the batbooks, alfred is constantly telling bruce that, tho effective, vengence doesnt serve any purpose other than blackening the soul. comic book character or not, he's right.

whether your watching your son's killer die, or suing him for millions in damages, you're not getting anything of value. all you want is your son, and thats hidden beneath what you think you want -- for "him" to pay. and, once you get that wish, you realize how hollow it was, and how it, more than likely, makes you feel even worse.

granted, its a SHITLOAD easier to talk about this, from my perspective than, say, anyone who's actually lived it. and, where i in their shoes, i might be just as fond of seeing him die as they were.

but, with a cooler head (not necessarily cleaner and/or brighter), ill never see the logic or benefit in the death penalty -- and i think that decision would be much easier for our country, as a whole, to make, were our prison system DEvolved about 1000 years.

control over our life, they already have.

villagevoice.com exclusive

Grim Greetings From the Texas Death House

Bush Hears Dead People

by Donna Ladd

One hundred fifty-two men and women executed on then governor Dubya Bush's watch in Texas may soon send the president 55th birthday greetings from the grave, thanks to an unintended joint Web effort by his most dedicated fans and his most acrimonious enemies.

The scheme is elementary: Over at BackBush.com, adoring minions plan to "sign" a life-size, six-by-three-foot birthday card displaying a large Dubya mug—sans smirk—to be delivered to America's top elected Cancer by the big day, July 6. The site shows Representative Bob Barr, the Georgian Republican, standing next to the card (Bush's nose is about crotch-high on the congressman) and makes clear that this isn't just any old greeting. It's about "taking a stand against the left-wing agenda of the Democrats, liberals, and the media," BackBush explains. (Apparently, it's also about collecting e-mail addresses for GOP propaganda.) BackBush.com hopes for 100,000-plus addresses, er, signatures.

The real surprise of Bush's big day, though, could be some of the names that pop up among his fan roster. Like, say, Gary Graham, Betty Beets, Odell Barnes, Javier Cruz, Excell White, and Noble Mays—all men and women killed by the state of Texas while Bush was in charge.

These greetings from the grave come at the urging of New York "punk publisher" Sander Hicks, who's calling for death-penalty opponents to send Bush a whoppin' howdy-do under a nom de plume borrowed from BushKills.com. "If you want to voice dissent, we suggest that concerned progressives infiltrate the birthday card," Hicks wrote in a June 14 e-newsletter. Sign, he advises, but "use the name of a person that Bush has executed!"

Hicks is the founder of Soft Skull Press, the radical Lower East Side publishing house that picked up Fortunate Son, the George W. Bush exposé that alleged a Bush cocaine arrest in Texas had been covered up. St. Martin's Press dumped the book after its author, J.H. Hatfield, admitted he'd participated in an attempted contract hit. Soft Skull recently released the second edition of the book, which contains a foreword by Hicks revealing the sources of the cocaine charge.

Now Hicks is bent on leading an act of "fiercely progressive" online political sabotage. In his e-mail, Hicks credits his pal Russ Padden for suggesting other appropriate pseudonyms: "Osama Bin Laden, Arbusto Oil, Grampa Lovehitler or, better yet, Prescott Lovedadolf."

Back at BackBush, though, conservatives are laying it on just as thick in their president's honor. "Thank you for restoring dignity and moral character to the Presidency," the greeting reads. "God bless you."

Texas Gov. Vetoes Execution Ban Bill

By NATALIE GOTT, Associated Press Writer

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) - Gov. Rick Perry knew the spotlight was on the Texas criminal justice system when he vetoed a bill to prohibit the state from executing mentally retarded killers.

But, he says, Texas does not execute mentally retarded inmates, despite what others say.

"That has been a fallacy that has been promoted by many inside this state and many outside of this state," Perry said Sunday as he vetoed the bill.

Perry's action ran counter to a trend among states that have the death penalty. Fifteen other states have bills banning the execution of the mentally retarded.

Texas bill sponsor Sen. Rodney Ellis, who contends the state has executed six retarded defendants, called the veto embarrassing.

"It gives us the appearance of being barbaric," Ellis said. "Gov. Perry had an historic opportunity to show the world that we are not only tough on crime, but fair and compassionate as well. He missed that opportunity."

Perry's veto came on the last day he could sign or veto bills before they became law without his signature.

He said he vetoed the bill because he wanted juries to continue making the determination of whether a person is mentally retarded. The bill, he said, would give judges the power to overturn a jury's decision.

"It basically tells the citizens of this state 'we do not trust you to get it right,'" Perry said.

Under the bill, if the jury did not determine a person was mentally retarded, a defense attorney could petition the judge to consider the issue. Two experts would be assigned to make a determination.

If the evidence shows the person is mentally retarded, the judge would be required to issue a sentence of life in prison.

"It sends inconsistent messages," Perry said. "It says to juries 'we trust your judgment if you determine that a defendant does not have the mental capacity to understand what that means. But we don't trust you when you determine that he does have the mental capacity to understand and be accountable for his actions.'"

Current Texas law takes into account whether a defendant is competent to stand trial, including whether the defendant can aid his own defense, and whether a defendant was insane, unable to distinguish right from wrong, when the crime was committed. Plus, a jury can consider retardation as a mitigating circumstance during sentencing.

Mental retardation should be a defining issue, not a mitigating factor, Ellis said in a statement.

Texas, the country's No. 1 death penalty state, has executed eight people this year and 247 since 1982.

According to the Death Penalty Information Center, Texas has executed six retarded defendants since 1982, two of them while President Bush was governor.

Prosecutors dispute that claim, saying the two men executed during Bush's governship both tested higher on additional IQ tests. Perry said the four others did not raise mental retardation as an issue during their trial.

The bill was one of the most contentious for Perry in his first term as governor.

Supporters of the bill, who held numerous news conferences to drum up support for it, said the ban was an issue of humanity.

Crime victims joined prosecutors in pleading for the veto, saying a ban would open the door for unprecedented, and unwarranted, appeals.

The U.S. Supreme Court is expected to rule this fall on a North Carolina case that could outlaw executions of retarded killers.

Perry said he believes a Supreme Court ruling outlawing executions of the mentally retarded would have no effect on Texas law.

After thirty-eight years without a federal execution, June has seen two of them only eight days apart: Timothy McVeigh's much-publicized execution on June 11, and, after President Bush's denial of clemency, Juan Raul Garza'son June 19. That the latter case proceeded without further postponement has drawn a fair amount of attention, since the Justice Department has yet to conclude its extensive review of racial and geographic disparities in the administration of the federal death penalty. As even the The New York Times felt compelled to note in a June 19 editorial, President Bush and Attorney General John Ashcroft "appear content to execute a defendant under a system whose fairness they are still reviewing."

In an attempt to highlight the U.S.'s continued reliance on what most of the rest of the world considers cruel and unusual punishment, we began compiling a death-row calendar last year in our monthly online feature Death Row Roll Call. The idea is to remind people of how often this macabre form of retribution is still practiced in our name, and to encourage folks to blast off informed letters of protest -- using the links and tools we provide -- to the appropriate governors and other officials presiding over these monthly executions. You can always access the current month's calender and related information at: http://www.thenation.com/deathrow/

And check out these recent related Nation articles for furtherinformation:

PATRICIA WILLIAMS: No Vengence, No Justice http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20010702&s=williams
DAVID COLE: Death and Disparity (Web-Only) http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=special&s=cole20010615
BRUCE SHAPIRO: "Moral" Execution (Web-Only) http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=special&s=shapiro20010606
BRUCE SHAPIRO: McVeigh's Last Message http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20010604&s=shapiro
BRUCE SHAPIRO: McVeigh: Done To Death http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20010702&s=shapiro
CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS: Covenant With Death http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20010514&s=hitchens

Also, don't miss Robert Sherrill's explosive investigative essay from the January 8, 2001 issue of The Nation making the case against capital punishment generally. Available at: http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20010108&s=sherrill

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lil Napoleon said:
Vous Americans need le guilotine! Kill all le treacherous bastards et keep their heads as conversational pieces! J'adore mon collection! As voltre children say, "gotta collect them all!". Zat es correct! <P>Zat es all...

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Christopher Flauding was considered retarded.

Now, 27 years after he killed a Merrillville woman, he's about to go free, a bachelor's degree in anthropology to his name.

Flauding was 17 when he attacked Celia Villareal with a butcher knife as she walked into her far-Northwestern Indiana home. Now 44, Flauding disputes labels such as "borderline mentally retarded" and "a limited mind" that were attached to him -- and may have saved him from the death penalty.

Defense attorneys used the 17-year-old Merrillville High School junior's mental state as part of its case to keep Flauding off Death Row. The prosecution never rebutted it. And Lake Superior Court Judge Richard Maroc believed it, handing down a 60-year sentence.

But, in a recreational room at the Miami Correctional Facility in the Northern Indiana community of Bunker Hill, Flauding held a folder full of photocopied certificates and degrees.

He earned his general educational development certificate a year after entering prison. An associate's degree followed, then a bachelor of science in anthropology. Through a program offered by Ball State University, he made the dean's list twice and finished with a 3.39 grade-point average.

Maroc, 63, who retired from the bench in 2003, is practicing law in Munster. The Flauding sentencing was one of the most difficult decisions he made during his 24 years as a judge.

"I imposed death sentences after that," Maroc said.

Villareal's children -- Albert Jr., 58, Fort Wayne; George, 56, Hobart; and George's twin sister, Sally Burcham, 56, Virginia Beach, Va. -- wonder if the family was duped 27 years ago when doctors claimed Flauding had limited intelligence.

If that's what kept him off Death Row, they said, why is he leaving prison with a decorated educational background?

"All of a sudden he's a doggone brilliant person," Albert Villareal Jr. said. "It just doesn't make sense."

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magicjay38 said:
Better that a guilty man goes free than an innocent should die. Once in a while the defence hits a homerun despite the odds being stacked in the state's favour.

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wannabuyamonkey said:

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magicjay38 said:
Better that a guilty man goes free than an innocent should die. Once in a while the defence hits a homerun despite the odds being stacked in the state's favour.

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I agree with you in theory, but this guy wasn't found innocent. He was found "retarded".

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