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the ultimate sign of disrespect, to a nation that offers you the freedom to do so? or the ultimate sign of freedom, within a nation that allows you to do so?
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Can't answer this as you guys are very patriotic and us Irish, Welsh, scotch, British aren't. I'd burn any flag you'd want me to.....in fact I'd be happy to!
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Its not as if it means anything. Wooo. A Flag. Lets Build a Sandcastle. Xy
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I kick your sandcastle over!
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quote:
Originally posted by Xyzandra:
Its not as if it means anything.Wooo. A Flag. Lets Build a Sandcastle. Xy
Yeah, thanks. I'm sure all the people who died fighting for you to have the freedom to say that really appreciate your support...
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I'm sorry Rufus, but I have to question your point. Being in Australia, our national identity is pretty much founded completely on the legend of WW1 and the ANZAC troops that fought at Gallipolli. The mission was a failure, but we respect those men for their fighting spirit and their courage. Those are the ideals that make us (Australia) proud of them, not the fact that they fought under a blue flag with the union jack on it and a whole buncha stars...
To me, a flag is nothing but a piece of cloth. The spirit of a nation isn't held within a flag, nor is a flag some sacred artefact. People that go to war fight to preserve the way of life that they believe is right, not to defend a flag...
At least, in my 17 year old Australian opinion that's how things work...
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael:
To me, a flag is nothing but a piece of cloth. The spirit of a nation isn't held within a flag, nor is a flag some sacred artefact. People that go to war fight to preserve the way of life that they believe is right, not to defend a flag...
At least, in my 17 year old Australian opinion that's how things work...
Exactly. A Flag is just an Object. I wouldn't particularly go out and burn a flag for the sake of it but if I was cold and it was the only thing available I'm not going to sit there and get Hypothermia. First time I even heard of this anti-flag burning thing was in an episode of the West Wing. You guys would be much better off with Martin Sheen as President you know. Xy
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quote:
Originally posted by Michael:
I'm sorry Rufus, but I have to question your point. Being in Australia, our national identity is pretty much founded completely on the legend of WW1 and the ANZAC troops that fought at Gallipolli. The mission was a failure, but we respect those men for their fighting spirit and their courage. Those are the ideals that make us (Australia) proud of them, not the fact that they fought under a blue flag with the union jack on it and a whole buncha stars...
To me, a flag is nothing but a piece of cloth. The spirit of a nation isn't held within a flag, nor is a flag some sacred artefact. People that go to war fight to preserve the way of life that they believe is right, not to defend a flag...
At least, in my 17 year old Australian opinion that's how things work...
Sure it is just a piece of cloth, but to many people, especially those people who have fought in the armed forces like myself, it's a symbol of what we are fighting for. A crucifix is just two pieces of wood at perpendicular angles, but to a Christian, it represents the ideals of their faith. Same goes for the Star of David or any other symbol. Sure, they may just be pieces of cloth or wood that may not mean anything to some, but to others, it's sums up all the ideals they believe in. If somebody wants to desicrate those symbols because they think it's the cool thing to do, then fine. They have that right, and I won't stop them. It'll just prove to me, instead of how "cool" they are, how ignorant they really are. Everybody in the world has some kind of faith in something, and they have a symbol that represents their faith. It may not religious or political, but it may be something along emotional lines such as family or friends. These symbols represent what you are and are very important to you. I'm sure you would do everything in your power to safeguard these symbols and ask that people please respect them. If you want people to do this, please remember you have to reciprocate in kind.
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That's a good point, and one I admit to never having really thought about before. I mean, I know that for some people a flag represents everything they cherish about a country, I just never stopped to think just how important it can be.
I apologise if my ignorance offended anyone.
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I was ignorant of your ignorance!
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I see what you mean Rufus. Its about Faith. I hadn't thought of a flag as a symbol of nationality in the same way as a Crucifix is a symbol of belief in Christianity. But I don't think its the burning itself that is the issue but the desecration of the symbol - the desecration of what the symbol represents. Its all about the Intent. In the example I mentioned above, where I would use a flag as kindling if there was nothing else and I was cold (Meaning Freezing to death, not just feeling a little chilly) is not a case of desecration. Its using the object, as opposed to the symbol. I would do the same with a crucifix and I am a Christian. I don't know if what I mean is coming across in what I've just written. I was once told a story in church. A man was caught in a major flood but was fortunate enough to find a roof to perch on. However the water was rising.
Someone in a homemade raft came by and said to the man, "Quickly, get on the raft and we'll sail to safety" to which the Priest replied, "No thankyou, My God will save me".
Somewhat later someone in a motorboat stopped by the roof and offered to rescue the man, who replied in the same way "My God will save me."
The water kept on rising and soon it was up to the man's neck. A Rescue Helecopter came by and was ready to winch the man to safety but the man yet again refused saying "No Thankyou, My God will save me."
The man drowned and went to heaven. He asked God why He hadn't saved him. God replied "What do you mean? I sent you a raft, a boat and a helecopter" I wouldn't want to hear "Why didn't you light a fire? I provided the wood." Someone going around and burning crucifixes and desecrating churches does annoy me and so I can understand your anger at the Flag burning issue. Its the same as the anger over grafitti on war memorials. Its a matter of Respect. at least thats how I see it. Xy
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You are correct. It's not the action of burning the flag itself, but the intent behind it. As a matter of fact the only way to properly dispose of a flag that is too tattered to be flown is to burn it. But there is a difference. Burning a flag that is unservicable is done in a cermony once a year (Flag day, June 14th, usually by a local VFW or American Legion Post) and is intended to be a final, well, funeral. The problem I, and many others, have, is when it's done as a sign of disrespect. In reality, it really is only a piece of cloth, but its not the material worth that the cloth is, but the ideals that it symbolizes. When people decide to burn the flag to prove some kind of social or political point, they are insulting the ideals that the flag represents. That to me is reprehensible. I'm sorry if I kind of snapped at you or anybody else, but this is a topic that is very near and dear to my heart. This, and freedom of speech/censorship are things that I feel very very strongly about...
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agreed on all accounts. i was thinking of the same "cross" example, when the discussion was as the flag as just being a piece of cloth. its a symbol. and its the belief and faith in the symbol that are important, not so much the symbol itself. which is why, in a case where you're cold, burning a flag wouldn't be some horrible crime. as long as its given the proper respect. again, its the handling of the symbol, more so than the symbol itself. as for the issue of burning a flag to make a statement... again, it sort of depends on where you're coming from -- what you mean by your actions. its a very powerful symbol to see the (american) flag burning. however, i do believe that, under the right circumstances, it could be a justified action. burning the flag, i feel, is the ultimate way to show that this country really IS about freedoms, however backwards the logic might seem. that we DO live in a society where you can act as you see fit, where as in other countries, even mentioning such an act could get you jailed -- even killed! as for WHAT cases i feel are justified to do this? ... not sure i can really think of any off the top of my head, but, it would have to be a scenario where it was individuals pointing out a hypocracy in a government ruling, where freedoms that are deserved by american citizens, according to our own constitution, are removed by the government out of temporary convenience, or some other aspect. some of the race riots of the 60s, perhaps. or, perhaps a better example, is the "jailing" of japanese-americans, during world war II. again, id still be very uncomfortable viewing such an action, but, if handled properly, hopefully the powerful image would have meaning behind it.
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sure guys see your point but my kid wouldnt be able to sit down for a week if I saw him burning our nation's flag!
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as an update, there was a "demonstration" the other day, in texas, i believe, where non-us students (attending a US university) burned an american flag in protest of "unfair treatment" their families (two of whom had family in mexico that they were trying to get into the country to visit them at school, and two of whom had family in cuba, trying to do the same thing). justified?
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If I were dying of cold, my first instinct would not be to burn the flag (were it the only thing available) I would first test it's ablility to function as a blanket (As it's benefits are more far-reaching) barring that, I would happily set it on fire to stay alive.......if I had something to set it on fire with (Which would be weird if I were dying of cold in the first place)....
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"If you want a symbolic gesture,don't burn the flag;wash it."
-Norman Thomas
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I think it's the ultimate sign of direspect. ![[you sunnuva...]](images/icons/mad.gif)
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Ofcourse it is. And that's why people do it, as they are entitled to do: show disrespect, in a non-violent manner, towards your ideals. Rufie says: quote:
they are insulting the ideals that the flag represents.
Rufie says that is "reprehensible": I say it is your entitlement to express yourself in the most assertive and antagonist way possible without resorting to violence.
If you take it to heart, then how better a way to let you know that I disagree with the views embodied by that flag?
Incidentally, its illegal here in HK - you get sent to gaol.
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i think one of the main problems, however, is that people will burn the flag for damn near any reason.
the flag has such intense, emotional pride in it, as a symbol. to see it burning is heart wrenching to many, but even more sickening to the extremely devout americans.
so, when teachers on strike burn the flag because of their protests and high school students burn the flag because napster is shut down and others burn the flag because they dont like the negative reaction bush gave to sharon...
it becomes a grossly misused sentiment.
lookit all the people screaming censorship when i delete a post of theirs on the DCMBs. had a single one of these people ever actually dealt with censorship, surely, they'd know better. but, if the dcmbs were a real-life public forum, would some of these "protestors" be burning the flag in response to my or dc's actions? maybe.
and, to a vietnam or korean or gulf war (etc) veteran, who put his life on the line for the flag (symbolically), and buried his closest friends wrapped within it, and believes in absolutely everything that flag stands for...
to see it burning is one thing. but to see it aimlessly and pointlessly and foolishly burning is another.
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That's a damn good point, Rob.
There are many, many people who do assanine shit like that, not because they believe in some cause but because its a good way to get attention and feel like you're big (sticking to the man and such) They don't have a clue who there actions are affecting. Freedom is very much taken for grant it by those who have it handed to them without sacrifice.
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Well nationalism is the source of so much evil in the world. and flags as a represant of that are nothing to be proud of. Hitlers Germany was based on symbols like that and look what they "gave" the world.
So in other words. I dont give a damn if someone burns any flags as long as they dont start burning people.
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religion is just as guilty as nationalism, in terms of oft being perverted for evil in the world.
many other wise positive things can be similarly twisted, from freedom of speech to political power.
but i dont think you should devalue something, simply because other's misuse it.
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quote:
Originally posted by Fragman:
Well nationalism is the source of so much evil in the world. and flags as a represant of that are nothing to be proud of. Hitlers Germany was based on symbols like that and look what they "gave" the world.
So in other words. I dont give a damn if someone burns any flags as long as they dont start burning people.
This is a very sophisticated argument you're putting forward, Fragman. What is "sovereignty" and "patriotism" anyway, but an excuse to dislike people who don't belong to your particular "herd"?
While I'm a fan of cultural identity, I'm no fan of sovereignty. Why respect a flag - any flag - when it is the cause for division between the "us-es" and the "thems"?
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Protest that involve burning the flag of a country are not normally aimed at the ideals that the flag may represent to the people, but as a protest at the actions of that countries current administration. People burning the stars and stripes at the moment over Dubya's dubious middle Eastern policy are doing it as a protest towards him and his administration (which IMO have little to do with the founding precepts of the US).
I guess I can't imagine the impact of a flag burning as much as some others, cos I'm not a nationalistily inclined person. Outside of sporting events.
I was born in Britain. Big deal. Doesn't make me a better person.
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Rob K. said: quote:
... to see it burning is one thing. but to see it aimlessly and pointlessly and foolishly burning is another.
Great point, Rob. I think the rampant burning of the flag points to just how destructive rather than constructive public debate has become in our society. Rather than simply disagreeing with someone....even strongly disagreeing with them,and leaving it at that, people now feel the need to take it a step further by not only disagreeing and criticizing the view itself, but also insulting, denigrating or even destroying the source of that view. Now, I'm as guilty of this as anyone, so this isn't a case of "Thank God I'm perfect and you're not", but it's just something I've noted in our modern society. Flag burning is the perfect example of an ideological debate that has stalled or completely broken off, with a nihilistic, primitive impulse to destroy taking its place.
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
What is "sovereignty" and "patriotism" anyway, but an excuse to dislike people who don't belong to your particular "herd"?
granted, thats an unfortunate twist, but certainly not the purpose or even majority of the reasoning.
thats like saying what is the concept of "family" but an excuse to hate other families. sure, thats a possibility and the definitions can be construed and even carried out as such -- however, thats not the intent.
any beneficial concept can be perverted in that fashion.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
While I'm a fan of cultural identity, I'm no fan of sovereignty. Why respect a flag - any flag - when it is the cause for division between the "us-es" and the "thems"?
with that theory, why should i respect ANY symbol? why should i respect judiasm when its just to be different from christianity? why should i respect families when its just to be different from orphans? why should i respect the space program, when its just to be different from countries that can't be involved?
again, i think thats just the negative concept. the "dark side" to an otherwise wonderful ideal, illustrated by far more than those who abuse it.
quote:
Originally posted by Steve T:
Protest that involve burning the flag of a country are not normally aimed at the ideals that the flag may represent to the people, but as a protest at the actions of that countries current administration.
i agree with that. but, really, thats what (i think) makes the action so wrong: those burning the flag often never take into account what the flag means to anyone.
imagine if you have an extemely rare comic book, that you love dearly because it was the first book you ever got and your mom, who had passed away, bought it for you when you were 6.
your girlfriend might not be interested in comics at all, and in a fit of rage over your leaving the toilet seat up again, she rips it in half in protest.
you'd be crushed, having lost a child hood favorite and a memory with a loved one. your girlfriend, however, would be generally unaffected, having never met your mother, nor sharing any interest in the book.
in that case, i say, she's horribly wrong.
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That my friends is a damn good analogy. ![[woooOOOOoooo!]](graemlins/smilewoo.gif)
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A flag is a lot easier to replace.
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its not the item burning, its the emotional investment and attachment to it. its a symbol in more ways than one.
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That's exactly why dickheads burn flags. Because they know the people who don't agree with them have an emotional investment in the flag and what it stands for.
They are trying to hurt, to goad. They cannot stand someone merely disagreeing with them or being content with having a different point of view. They want to incite a reaction.
A quiet, assured opposition frightens them. They will do anything to break the composure of their opponents, to drag them down to their level, the level of screeching baboons.
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Demian:
That's exactly why dickheads burn flags. Because they know the people who don't agree with them have an emotional investment in the flag and what it stands for.
They are trying to hurt, to goad. They cannot stand someone merely disagreeing with them or being content with having a different point of view. They want to incite a reaction.
A quiet, assured opposition frightens them. They will do anything to break the composure of their opponents, to drag them down to their level, the level of screeching baboons.
Whereas I tend to think that a legitimate government has nothign to fear from having its flag burned as a sign of protest.
A government which unstable cling to its symbols.
"Quiet and assured"... I repeat: an alternative to making one's obvious repulsion for something down by a government is violence.
Tell me, does anyone here have an objection to the burning of a Nazi flag? Or the Iraq flag for Saddam Hussein?
Or what if those two brave cricketers in the World Cup who wore black arm bands to symbolise the death of democracy in Zimbabwe had instead chosen to defy their corrupt and illegitimate government by burning the Zimbabwe flag?
Dare I say... it is just your flag that you do not like being burned?
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quote:
Dave:
Whereas I tend to think that a legitimate government has nothign to fear from having its flag burned as a sign of protest.
Here's the misunderstanding. It is not the government's flag. Governments come and go. It's the country's flag.
Moreover, the people who disagree with the burning of the flag are not necessarily supporters of the present government.
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But if you don't do something that gets a reaction it's a prett ineffective protest.
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve T:
But if you don't do something that gets a reaction it's a prett ineffective protest.
ghandi and mlk seemed to have been quite succesful.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
Whereas I tend to think that a legitimate government has nothign to fear from having its flag burned as a sign of protest.
its not the government im concerned for, its the people.
if you're protesting against something you have no respect for, why should the protestees have respect for you?
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
Tell me, does anyone here have an objection to the burning of a Nazi flag? Or the Iraq flag for Saddam Hussein?
try burning either one, during their respective reign. you'd get a lot more than disgruntled message board posters.
further, i'd think, at any point in history, it'd be somewhat obvious to point out the flaws of your two selected govenerments. burning a nazi flag as a stand against slaughter or death camps isn't such a bad stand. burning a sign of evil doesn't hurt too much.
but burning an iraqi flag infront of a proud, saddam-hating iraqi would be quite hurtful to that individual. ... which, in turn, would end up being quite hurtful to you.
perhaps you shouldn't try that.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
Or what if those two brave cricketers in the World Cup who wore black arm bands to symbolise the death of democracy in Zimbabwe had instead chosen to defy their corrupt and illegitimate government by burning the Zimbabwe flag?
as said, its a matter of picking your battles, i suppose.
burning the american flag for any of the dozens of reasons its currently burned for (lack of funding, upset healthcare issues, increased rent, etc) is hideous and pathetic.
i sincerely doubt you have the conviction to explain to any american world war II vet that its simply a "form of protest."
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Indonesians regularly burn the Australian flag outside the embassy in Jakarta.
Let them get their jollies, I say. Have a cathartic release. Beats them assaulting Australian citizens.
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true.
but i have to imagine there are others, proud-as-anything australian soldiers, or mourning family members they left behind, that would take great umbrage to the site.
rightfully so, i say.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
true.
but i have to imagine there are others, proud-as-anything australian soldiers, or mourning family members they left behind, that would take great umbrage to the site.
rightfully so, i say.
You know my family's military history. My grandfather still marches in ANZAC Day, and was mighty upset that I learned Japanese at school.
I don't think he really cares whether anyone burns the flag or not.
It has suddenly occurred to me that part of my irreverance is because there has been debate for years in Australia about changing our flag, something I'm in two minds over. Y'see, people don't like the Union Jack in the corner, because we are no longer a British colony (same complaint about how the Queen of Australia is actually English).
Perhaps if I was happy that the flag was representative of the country, I;d feel differently about it...
...but maybe not. I still like Fragman's argument the best.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,203
betrayal and collapse 5000+ posts
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betrayal and collapse 5000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,203 |
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
the ultimate sign of disrespect, to a nation that offers you the freedom to do so?
or the ultimate sign of freedom, within a nation that allows you to do so?
Both.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,203
betrayal and collapse 5000+ posts
|
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betrayal and collapse 5000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,203 |
More...
A country's flag represents its cumulative actions, such as slavery, lynching, willful ignorance of those in need, and so on.
People who haven't been exposed to these unfortuate acts firsthand or refuse to acknowledge that such things ever happened, will, of course form a diverse body of people who are angered by flagburning. There are also people who find pride in their country, and its accomplishments.
I only feel proud of America when I see the potential for the principles of the founding fathers to be realized, and not given lipservice by people too shortsighted to see that we're very far from where we should be.
Donald Byrd was dragged behind a truck and dismembered by three men who claimed to be "real Americans". This was less than a decade ago. Segregation still exists in the South. There are still many parts of the country where I have to be careful what kind of company I keep.
I can still have my car searched for nearly any reason, at any time despite not possessing a criminal record. I live in a country that fears and marginalizes me, downplays the evils of foreign and domestic manifest destiny and teeters, at times, on the verge of being an amoral hegemony.
These thoughts--and many others--enter my mind when someone burns a flag. It's easier for people to focus on anti-flagburning legislation than to donate their time to senior citizens and at-risk youth.
Let it burn.
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