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Do you think it's wrong for the Department of Homeland Security, FBI, CIA, State Police and Local PD's to profile Arabs.....even Arab Americans? I'm not saying they are doing this currently because they're not. I however feel that if they did thisit wouldn't be as wrong as people would say it would be. The knee-jerk reaction would be to scream "How could they do this". But the bottom line is ....you don't see Hispanics, Italians, Greeks, Irish, Polish, or any other ethnic group commiting acts of terror as a collective. They might do the occasional act of random violence but true terrorists 99% of the time are Arabs or Muslims.
Why? Is it that the two cultures will never get along.....I hope that's not the case. Most of the acts of terror are performed by extremists that are Arab or Muslim.....but they are still Arabs or Muslim.....so how do we know who's good and who's bad.
We could stop giving them student visas for a few years...... maybe 5. And there's nothing wrong with having the authorities keep a closer eye on them until normalcy returns and the extremists are brought down to manageable levels. I feel very strongly about Arab leaders both here and abroad policing their own people more diligently. If they don't like being singled out or profiled then they can do more to help.
I'm not picking on innocents here and I don't want to see this done forever......but special times call for special measures.
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it depends on if you consider the concept of profiling discriminatory or not.
i can easily see how such a thing could (and is) perverted into something horrible. at the same time... i think its only logical.
if you spot a guy leaving your house with your own tv, and he's wearing a blue shirt, you'll tell cops he's wearing a blue shirt. subsequently, you'll want them to search for someone wearing a blue shirt.
if he was tall, you'd want the cops to search for a tall guy.
if he fits a certain racial category, why expect different reactions?
if a gang forms in your town called "crazy short people" made up of... well... crazy short people, you'd want the cops to be on the look out for shorter individuals.
not to say they should ignore the 6'5" woman in the cowboy hat, but... with limited manpower, resources, and time, you might as well get the best profile that you can, and follow it as closely as you can.
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Actually, the IRA and Hamas have had fundraisers for years (decades in the case of the IRA) for their "causes". So it would seem fair to single out the Irish.
Peruvians may belong to Sendero Luminoso ("Shining Path", sorry if I spelled it wrong), so we can exclude them. Mexicans and Columbians, similarly, may belong to the Colombian drug gangs or Chiapas (sp.). So now the Hispanics can be excluded. There is also a smattering of terrorism on the island of Greece, so they can be excluded.
So your argument isn't against the concept of terrorism, but domestic terrorism. Fair enough. But depending on how one views the act of terrorism, virtually any atrocity from Vietnam to Iran can be thought of as terrorism. No culture has a monopoly on terrorism when viewed in a more historical context.
The student visa moritorium would be nothing less than a disaster for America. Over 30% of the master s and Ph.d's earned in America are by foreigners who come from overseas, typically remain and contribute positively to the economy. Most of the people who come from overseas--Middle Eastern countries or elsewhere--do not pose a threat to the safety of America. More thorough background checks by the relevant authorities is a much calmer and balanced solution.
This sentence in your post, however, was very chilling. "If they don't like being singled out or profiled then they can do more to help." Profiling violates a persons' Constitutional rights. If we as a country have to resort to profiling, then we're on our way to becoming that which we claim to stand against. We must protect the freedoms of all, or that freedom is meaningless.
No one has the right to presume that a person belongs to a certain group due to issues such as religion and ethnicity. I don't assume that all white people are part of the KKK, or that all Mexicans belong to a gang. That's a reactionary, alarmist way of thinking and isn't productive in a broader sense. For example, we haven't captured anyone (to my knowledge) involved in 9/11 as a result of stricter enforcement of immigration policies.
That's my .02 cents...adjusted for inflation.
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I agree with most of your post Theory.....and as an aside always enjoy reading your stuff.
Just to clarify what I meant about the sentence that you found chilling.....You brought up the KKK.....I'm white and hate everything they stand for. As a white male instead of just hating them and what they stand for I can be more proactive...and do more to stop them. As an example about two years ago I got a random mailing from a white supremacist group. I felt sick to my stomach that something like that was sent to me.(The writings in that pamphlet still haunt me) I could have just tossed it in the garbage and that would have been the end of it.....but I was so disgusted and so appalled...and a little scared to be honest that the next day I went down to my local Police Dept. The first thing I did was ask them how these guys got my address......the Detective said that these groups can by mailing lists from companies just like telemarketers....so with that established I made it clear that not only did I want to be removed from the list but I wanted this group checked out. Long story short....they went to the NJ state police who then went to the Pennsylvania state police and eventually they traked this group down in PA. They went in and made them give up their mailing lists. These guys are now under constant surveilance by the FBI and State Police....I like to think that I had something to do with that.
So by that rationale...If I'm a wealthy Arab donating money that I think is going to help innocent Arabs who need charity.....but it's really going to Hamas or Islamic Jihad......shouldn't I be more respnosible to know where my money is going. Shouldn't I speak out against these fundamentalists who are preaching hate.
Another quick example....I was in a fraternity in RI. Two of the fraternity brothers were racists...they used to give a hard time to one of our hispanic brothers....finally I had enough of it and told them I'd hand them their asses if it continued....it stopped right then and there.
On a global scale that's what Bush did....he went to the bullies and told them if they keep it up he's going to kick their ass. So far we haven't had any major terrorist attacks since 9-11...Tough stands against injustice work....they really do.
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There's been a spate of recent terrorist bombings in Casablanca. the Taliban is on the rise again in Afganistan due to the pathetic efforts by the US/UK. The flatten the country then move on policy not working then.
It'll be interesting to see if they do a better job in Iraq after going in to find the weapons of mass distraction that their intelligence (which they weren't very quick to pass on to inspectors) insists they have but no one can find.
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve T:
There's been a spate of recent terrorist bombings in Casablanca. the Taliban is on the rise again in Afganistan due to the pathetic efforts by the US/UK. The flatten the country then move on policy not working then.
It'll be interesting to see if they do a better job in Iraq after going in to find the weapons of mass distraction that their intelligence (which they weren't very quick to pass on to inspectors) insists they have but no one can find.
What does this have to do with the topic?.........Other than give you a chance to lash out against the US/UK. ![[...rassamnfrackin...]](graemlins/grumble01.gif)
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quote:
On a global scale that's what Bush did....he went to the bullies and told them if they keep it up he's going to kick their ass. So far we haven't had any major terrorist attacks since 9-11...Tough stands against injustice work....they really do.
response to that
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve T:
quote:
On a global scale that's what Bush did....he went to the bullies and told them if they keep it up he's going to kick their ass. So far we haven't had any major terrorist attacks since 9-11...Tough stands against injustice work....they really do.
response to that
Have there been any major terror attacks in the US/UK?.....Ugh..no there haven't. ![[woooOOOOoooo!]](graemlins/smilewoo.gif) ![[izzat so?]](graemlins/zatso.gif)
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I agree that the majority of terrorists are Arab/Muslim, and that greater scrutiny should be given to Muslims in the U.S., and especially to Muslim immigrants and travelers to the U.S. (i.e., I agree with taking common sense measures to protect our country from a clear and established terrorist threat.) But I do think questioning of Muslim suspects should be done as respectfully as possible. I do think there are some cases reported where innocent Muslims have been imprisoned without charges since just after 9-11-2001, or were otherwise intimidated and harassed despite their clear innocence, and I think those police officers should be accountable for not behaving professionally toward the suspects they questioned and/or arrested. I think it should be pointed out that 50% of even Saudi Arabians absolutely despise the repressive islamic clerics who maintain rigid customs and laws in Saudi Arabia, and would welcome the abolishment of these laws and customs. (Saudi Arabia is the center of Wahabism, the most fanatically extremist view of Islam. Wahabi missionaries are the core of Muslim violence worldwide, and from Algeria to Chechnya to the Phillipines to Palestine to Afghanistan, Wahabi missionaries are the focal point of Muslim fanaticism and violence.) In saying this, I mean that: Yes, there are tens of thousands of Al Qaida terrorists worldwide, and millions of Muslims worldwide who sympathize with Al Qaida and would assist them. But let's not alienate the millions of others who are friendly toward us, and who also are disgusted by fanatical Islam extremism and violence. ~ I also wanted to point out two previous topics that are related to this one: "profiling" [same name as this topic] http://www.robkamphausen.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=27;t=000187 "(fire)fight political correctness" http://www.robkamphausen.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=27;t=000191
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That justifies the killing of thousands of innocents and leaving a country in disaray does it?
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I don't support profiling. For one thing, it's too inexact of a science to be used with any consistancy. It's also very prone to abuse, not the least because of the profilers own prejudices. I believe more harm than good would come of it.
Rob, you analogy about the stolen TV doesn't really hold water. What are you gonna do, put every guy in a blue shirt in the whole country under surveilance? The vast majority of persons wearing blue shirts are not TV thieves. Why should they be held responsible because of what someone else did, who also happened to wear a blue shirt. And that's a shirt. A lot easier to change than your race/religion/ethnicity. Profiling is a "using a sledge hammer to squash ants" approach.
JPJ, I'm not sure what the fact of no major terrorist incidents in the US in the last 18-20 months has to do with anything. Before 9/11, the last incidents were in the early 1990's - The WTC bombing & the Oklahoma City bombing. Humm. That last one was committed by a white american w/a military background. Maybe we should profile white americans who have military backgrounds. I mean, after all, they've proven that they are willing to use violence as a means to achieve their ends. We just saw it happen recently in Iraq. Therein lies the absurdity of profiling.
Cheers!
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quote:
Originally posted by Wingnut-EL:
I don't support profiling. For one thing, it's too inexact of a science to be used with any consistancy. It's also very prone to abuse, not the least because of the profilers own prejudices. I believe more harm than good would come of it.
Rob, you analogy about the stolen TV doesn't really hold water. What are you gonna do, put every guy in a blue shirt in the whole country under surveilance? The vast majority of persons wearing blue shirts are not TV thieves. Why should they be held responsible because of what someone else did, who also happened to wear a blue shirt. And that's a shirt. A lot easier to change than your race/religion/ethnicity. Profiling is a "using a sledge hammer to squash ants" approach.
JPJ, I'm not sure what the fact of no major terrorist incidents in the US in the last 18-20 months has to do with anything. Before 9/11, the last incidents were in the early 1990's - The WTC bombing & the Oklahoma City bombing. Humm. That last one was committed by a white american w/a military background. Maybe we should profile white americans who have military backgrounds. I mean, after all, they've proven that they are willing to use violence as a means to achieve their ends. We just saw it happen recently in Iraq. Therein lies the absurdity of profiling.
Cheers!
We can profile white Americans who have military backgrounds too. ![[biiiig grin]](images/icons/grin.gif)
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve T:
That justifies the killing of thousands of innocents and leaving a country in disaray does it?
I hope you're not refering to Iraq.....thousands of innocents dead indeed. Because we both know that's a crock of shit.
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quote:
Originally posted by PJP:
We can profile white Americans who have military backgrounds too. [/QB][/QUOTE]
That's the ticket!
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How've you been Wingnut? Are you like the rest of us and gave up the DCMBs or do you still visit? I'll probably give them a try in a few weeks when the kinks get worked out.....but I'm sure I'll get banned fairly quickly.
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Hi PJP. I'm good. I check in over at DC every few days, but they really suck. Mostly in terms of content. Something about the "vibe" over there seems to dumb down all the discussions. So, I've spent most of my time lurking around here.
Cheers!
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Probably because those of us that used to post regularly don't go there that much for whatever reason. Right now I'm just too freaking busy to post anywhere, which is why I'm here stalling instead of getting back to work like I said was going to about an hour ago. *sigh* I'm almost done.... I'm almost done...
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quote:
Originally posted by Wingnut-EL:
Hi PJP. I'm good. I check in over at DC every few days, but they really suck. Mostly in terms of content. Something about the "vibe" over there seems to dumb down all the discussions. So, I've spent most of my time lurking around here.
Cheers!
You'll like it here....it's a good mix of people....with serious discusions......but still alot of kidding around. ![[worst. icon. ever.]](graemlins/comicguy-icon00.gif)
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No, Afganistan.
But plenty of people did die in Iraq.
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quote:
Originally posted by Wingnut-EL:
JPJ, I'm not sure what the fact of no major terrorist incidents in the US in the last 18-20 months has to do with anything. Before 9/11, the last incidents were in the early 1990's - The WTC bombing & the Oklahoma City bombing. Humm. That last one was committed by a white american w/a military background. Maybe we should profile white americans who have military backgrounds. I mean, after all, they've proven that they are willing to use violence as a means to achieve their ends. We just saw it happen recently in Iraq. Therein lies the absurdity of profiling.
Cheers!
The relation is, when U.S. troops seized the Al Qaida training grounds in early 2002, they found elaborate maps of planned terrorist attacks on major landmarks in the U.S. and Europe.
I saw footage of these camps on 60 Minutes and other network news broadcasts in the two or three months after the Aghan War was concluded.
There can be no denial that the Afghan invasion has prevented further terrorist attacks. And Al Qaida terror cels continue to be arrested. the last was about three weeks ago, a bunch of Algerian immigrants in France.
The difference between Al Qaida and Tim McVeigh is that Tim McVeigh and the one or two other guys with him were an isolated pocket of alienated lone nuts, with confused ideas that virtually no one would agree with.
As compared to Al Qaida, where there are tens of thousands of fanatics who can justify killing any group of Americans or Europeans, or anyone in Arab countries who has any association with the U.S. or Europe. (The latest Bin Ladin message calls on Muslims worldwide to attack any Arab governments that interact or cooperate with Western governments.)
Tens of thousands of fanatics. And literally tens of MILLIONS of Muslims worldwide who endorse Al Qaida's fanatacism, and would cooperate with and aid Al Qaida.
Logic says that you defend a country against an obvious and announced threat, and not just sit around waiting for the next attack, with naive idealism about "Well, everyone has rights... "
No they don't.
Rights belong to the U.S. citizens who are threatened. And it is the justified task of our government to take steps to protect us from fanatics with a murderous ideology.
We know what they look like. We know what they believe. We know how they enter our country. And we know the logical steps to weed them out. If that's "profiling", then so be it. Common sense, not illogical sympathy for an enemy who will kill us at every opportunity.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
if you spot a guy leaving your house with your own tv, and he's wearing a blue shirt, you'll tell cops he's wearing a blue shirt. subsequently, you'll want them to search for someone wearing a blue shirt.
if he was tall, you'd want the cops to search for a tall guy.
if he fits a certain racial category, why expect different reactions?
Because the guy in the blue shirt who stole your TV is not going to imply the guilt of all other blue-shirt wearing men.
You catch some Arab guys hijacking a plane or bombing an airport or somesuch. You put them in jail. Good. Justice is served. Profiling dictates that from then on all other Arab looking guys are under suspicion (yes, I know I'm simplifying. I'm making a point).
If this same argument were used in application to the blue shirt man, then once he is captured and put in jail, then all other men in blue shirts are STILL being watched. Because your one case of Blue Shirt Man Terrorism has demonstrated to you that all Blue Shirt Men are statistically more likely to steal TVs. Which is just silly.
quote:
]Have there been any major terror attacks in the US/UK?.....Ugh..no there haven't.
At what cost? See Steve's point regarding Afghanistan.
And sure, there hasn't been any major terrorist attacks in the last year or two. But how many were there before that?
'It's like if I were to claim that this rock keeps tigers away.'
'How does it work?'
'It doesn't. It's just a stupid rock. But do you see any tigers around?'
'Lisa... I'd like to buy your rock!'
And there is a big, big difference between some plans being found, and those plans being implemented.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:
As compared to Al Qaida, where there are tens of thousands of fanatics who can justify killing any group of Americans or Europeans, or anyone in Arab countries who has any association with the U.S. or Europe. (The latest Bin Ladin message calls on Muslims worldwide to attack any Arab governments that interact or cooperate with Western governments.)
Tens of thousands of fanatics. And literally tens of MILLIONS of Muslims worldwide who endorse Al Qaida's fanatacism, and would cooperate with and aid Al Qaida.
Bin Laden calling on Muslims doesn't mean they will respond. If the KKK went on TV calling out to all white men, does that mean white guys will immediately follow?
And tens of millions is an exaggeration.
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I think some of you might find this interesting. http://www.usdoj.gov/ag/speeches/2002/natlsecentryexittrackingsys.htm" Current Regulations Have Limited Registration to Aliens from Iraq, Iran, Sudan and Libya. Because of regulatory exemptions, rigorous registration and fingerprinting is currently required only for nationals of Iraq, Iran, Sudan, and Libya who are required to be fingerprinted and photographed at the port of entry, under 8 C.F.R. ' 264.1(f). The Attorney General has the authority to expand this list of countries through the publication of a Federal Register notice. " I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but they are profiling Arabs from certain countries.
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quote:
Originally posted by Danny:
Because the guy in the blue shirt who stole your TV is not going to imply the guilt of all other blue-shirt wearing men.
of course. thats not what profiling (done right) is.
quote:
Originally posted by Danny:
If this same argument were used in application to the blue shirt man, then once he is captured and put in jail, then all other men in blue shirts are STILL being watched. Because your one case of Blue Shirt Man Terrorism has demonstrated to you that all Blue Shirt Men are statistically more likely to steal TVs. Which is just silly.
sure, thats silly. but again, thats not profiling (done right).
to give a better example based on the above info for profiling, you'd have to say something like 85% of TV thefts in the past 10 years were done by men wearing blue shirts.
then its something to look into -- and certainly less silly.
and its not assuming guilt of people fitting that description. its being more wary or watchful or concerned of people fitting that description.
if there's one fraternity on a college campus that has a 25 year reputation for causing trouble on that campus (even though new "recruits" are brought in about every 5 years), does it make sense to watch out for them a little more?
if a buncha posters sign on the dcmbs in, oh, 1999 or 2000 with the names... i dunno... "natureboy lover" or "natureboyz rule" or "natureboyz are gay like nowhereman" and all of them cause trouble... you'd think that crazy moderator would be wrong to be a lil wary of future "natureboy __" screen names?
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:
(The latest Bin Ladin message calls on Muslims worldwide to attack any Arab governments that interact or cooperate with Western governments.)
Tens of thousands of fanatics. And literally tens of MILLIONS of Muslims worldwide who endorse Al Qaida's fanatacism, and would cooperate with and aid Al Qaida.
quote:
Originally posted by Danny:
Bin Laden calling on Muslims doesn't mean they will respond. If the KKK went on TV calling out to all white men, does that mean white guys will immediately follow?
And tens of millions is an exaggeration.
Is it an exaggeration?
A July 7, 2002 article from the Washington Post looks at the facts and says otherwise. It discusses the vastly diminished exchange of trade and culture between the Muslim world and the U.S., since September 11th. And details that between 30% and 50% of the populations of those countries are boycotting U.S. products and services, beginning September 11, 2001. Once again, if THAT's not a widespread Muslim endorsement of terrorism, then I don't know what is.
30 to 50% of a global population of 1.2 billion Muslims easily adds up to tens of millions. I actually thought I was posting too low a number when I said "tens of millions".
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36461-2002Jul7.html
The mainstream press often says that a majority of Muslims condemn the al Qaida terrorism on September 11th.
But Muslim students are not enrolling for U.S. schools (down 25% from last year), and people from throughout the Middle East are boycotting U.S. products, resulting in a 40% decline in Middle East business for U.S. companies, despite the discouragement of these boycotts by the Egyptian, Saudi Arabian and Jordanian governments.
Which sounds like an endorsement of Al Qaida by Muslims throughout the Middle East, that these average Muslims would hate the U.S. enough to boycott all our products.
And we're the ones negotiating for peace and a homeland for the Palestinians, and attempting to establish a stable representative democracy in Afghanistan, and now Iraq. It seems that no matter how measured and reasonable our actions, it is spin-doctored to rationalize hatred for us. And even as they hate us we, stupidly, try to do the right thing.
They'll probably blame the damage done to their own economies by their boycott (which the article makes clear that even their own goverments are telling them hurts ONLY THEIR ECONOMIES, not ours ) on America. When once again, it's a product of their own hate. But they'll spin it as another example of "American imperialism".
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I'm a little intrigued by the idea of profiling ever since a Chinese person recently said to me that she thinks all sub-continental Indian people look alike. I have personally been confused with a Western Caucasian guy standing next to me by a Chinese guy in a Starbucks. In the archive section of www.straightdope.com there is a great article on racial recognition problems. Basically, people of different races look for different identifying features to distinguish between individuals. So while, say, white guys look for hair colour, eye colour etc., Chinese might instead loook at nose shape, cheek shape etc. Racial profiling to me seems like a subconscious extension of this racial recognition problem. "He sounds Middle Eastern, he looks Middle Eastern, he must be a terrorist." There was that poor Egyptian Coptic Christian guy I think I've mentioned before who was shot dead in his store after 11 Sept because someone thought he was an Arab Muslim. I can appreciate the rationale of racial profiling, I just don't agree with it. As usual, its Dave TWB's argument that I feel compelled to attack, since, with respect to the rest of you, its the most cogent: quote:
And details that between 30% and 50% of the populations of those countries are boycotting U.S. products and services, beginning September 11, 2001. Once again, if THAT's not a widespread Muslim endorsement of terrorism, then I don't know what is.
This draws a false conclusion. Americans boycott French goods, but does that mean they'd supply the Corsican separatist movement with money and arms?
Samuel Huntington in his book The Clash of Civilisations and the Remaking of the World Order says that don't assume "Coca colanisation" will make people pro-American - he cites the example of young Arabs wearing Levis, drinking Coke and listening to rap while making a bomb for an aircraft. Similarly, but in reverse, a boycott of a country's goods doesn't really indicate a propensity towards terrorism towards that country.
quote:
But Muslim students are not enrolling for U.S. schools (down 25% from last year),
Leaving how many hundreds of thousands of students enrolling?
There could be many causes for this. One of them might be a downturn in Middle Eastern economies generally. They mainly rely upon oil and tourism for trade, and tourism has taken a hit globally. This might have had a flow on effect on middle class Middle Easterners, unable to send their kids abroad to school.
It may even be a perception that racial profiling is going on as is a form of racism - and they don't want to study in a country where that happens. Who knows?
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and people from throughout the Middle East are boycotting U.S. products, resulting in a 40% decline in Middle East business for U.S. companies, despite the discouragement of these boycotts by the Egyptian, Saudi Arabian and Jordanian governments.
Again, I'd blame economies more than anything else. Egypt and Jordan have no oil, and are reliant upon tourism for their economies. Sure, there might be a boycott, but I'd be interested to see whether the unemployment rate has bounced upwards during that boycott.
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Which sounds like an endorsement of Al Qaida by Muslims throughout the Middle East, that these average Muslims would hate the U.S. enough to boycott all our products.
I disagree, fundamentally (pardon the pun). Again, with a different example, suppose I boycotted Spanish goods because they supported the war in Iraq. This does not mean I would give money to the violent Basque separatist movement ETA.
If I was a Muslim lawyer in, say, Abu Dhabi, rather than HK, and I saw the invasion of Iraq as conquest for oil, I'd be boycotting US goods. But would I support an organisation which rams aircraft into buildings in the US filled with thousands of innocent people? No. And I doubt the vast majority of Muslims do either.
That's where racial profiling goes wrong: it assumes propensity in a given culture towards violence, when in fact such propensity exists in all people of any culture or race.
Wingnut-El raises McVeigh as an excellent and often cited example of how racial profiling does not work. Dave TWB says that McVeigh is a lone nutter. But he's also of the same ethnic make-up as:
1. Basque separatists;
2. Chechnyan rebels;
3. the Italian terror group November 17;
4. the KKK;
5. Corsican separatists;
6. German neo-Nazi right wing extremists;
7. Combat 14, the neo-Nazis in the UK;
8. the IRA and the Real IRA;
9. FARC in Columbia (ok, they're Latin-Americans).
If we're talking numbers, there are hundreds of thousands of neo-Nazis in Europe and America, with a sophisticated internal structure. Some of those guys might think about dropping a plane into a rally on MLK Day. So, are white guys racial profiled? Nope.
The IRA and FARC have enormous cash reserves, and weapons. FARC have enough motivation to run a plane into the Columbian embassy in Washington DC, or into the White House for that matter (since the US is giving military assistance to Columbia). So why aren't Latin Americans racial profiled for terrorism? Or Irishmen, to stop the Real IRA from dropping a plane into Buckingham Palace?
Of all of those examples, you're assuming that an Arab who opposes the US - or just an Arab, period - is a likely terrorist, simply because other Arabs got away with it on 11 Sept. Its a flawed premise.
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Is it true that French fries have been renamed Freedom Fries in the US (I heard it somewhere,but it sounds too daft to be true).
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve T:
Is it true that French fries have been renamed Freedom Fries in the US (I heard it somewhere,but it sounds too daft to be true).
Oh it's True.....It's Damn True.
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Dave I understand what you mean when you say it's a flawed concept......and perhaps it is. It's just that at this point and time in our history I think it may be a helpful tool.....temporarily. I know not all Arabs are bad. I also know your points are good ones about the IRA, Neo-Nazis, and other terrorist groups. I just feel that we need to put a halt on the way things were for a few years with special rules and regulations just till we can clean up this mess that we're in. I can't blame any specific person for the total mess because every administration since WW2 has added their own two cents to the mix. Anyhow I respectfully disagree with you..........I'm getting better.
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
Racial profiling to me seems like a subconscious extension of this racial recognition problem. "He sounds Middle Eastern, he looks Middle Eastern, he must be a terrorist."
again, thats not profiling.
"he's tall, he's wearing a blue shirt, he must be the thief" -- it doesn't translate.
what you've described above is a natural and improper reaction of some regular people. those are assumptions that you or i or jack or bsams might make. we're not profilers.
unfortunately, that is the scenario most people think of when they hear the term "profiling" -- and its easy to agree how horrible that would be. but thats not profiling. rather, what you described is simply assumed racism.
this is a "great" example of it:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
There was that poor Egyptian Coptic Christian guy I think I've mentioned before who was shot dead in his store after 11 Sept because someone thought he was an Arab Muslim.
there was no profiling involved here. it was just a bunch of upset, enraged people thinking and believing what they wanted, more than likely with zero justification. the thoughts are understandable (you know what i mean), considering the then-recent events, but certainly not excusable. but then reacting on that feeling and assumption in the most heinous of ways... horrible. not profiling.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
That's where racial profiling goes wrong: it assumes propensity in a given culture towards violence, when in fact such propensity exists in all people of any culture or race.
again, thats not profiling. definitely not profiling done properly.
remember, profiling is done, legally and without debate on the rkmbs, all the time. its an efficient and helpful way to keep things as safe as possible. there was even a tv show "the profiler"!
the phrase "racial profiling" is redundant and unnecessary, since the term and process of "profiling" already includes the concept of race.
its like saying "water swimming"
one of the more "famous" fbi profiles is that of a serial killer. the basic outline, if memory serves, is that he's male, an outsider, more than likely ostricised, between the ages of 20 and 40, and white. the profile goes many levels deeper than that, however, noting that it includes the race on even a broad definition is important.
and, let it be pointed out that this does not assume the serial killer instinct is found within every white male within that age group. even if someone happens to fit, say, 8 out of the 10 criteria (guessing at the numbers), it doesn't assume anything. it might raise a flag or two, and cause an extra night patrol by their house or something to that extent.
but automatic guilt is never associated by a form of properly inacted profiling.
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Originally posted by Dave:
Wingnut-El raises McVeigh as an excellent and often cited example of how racial profiling does not work.
profiling is not perfect. it makes no claims to be. and it has good company, since no other concept in the history of mankind that deals with humans can claim perfection.
how many trials go wrong in your profession, in just a months time? that understood, should the legal or justice systems be done away with?
if 500 patients are misdiagnosed in july because doctor's looked into the wrong symptoms too much, should the medical community be disbanded?
lupus is a disease known to affect women, and specifically black and latin women more often than any other grouping. are doctor's racist, or using a "flawed premise," if they tend to look out for that in their black and latin women patients more carefully? in doing so, are they automatically assuming those patients have lupus?
profiling is a system used to assist forces like the fbi. what you're ignoring is the millions of times its proved beneficial. it gives law enforcement the ability to better understand whats going on in the mind of a kidnapper. or a murderer. or an escaped con. or a suicidal individual.
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve T:
Is it true that French fries have been renamed Freedom Fries in the US (I heard it somewhere,but it sounds too daft to be true).
It's not being Anti-French either.....it's simply being Pro-American.
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Sorry mate, but I'm missing the logic on that one. Please enlighten me!
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In some ways, profiling makes sense. When searching for terrorists, looking among Arab men is probably much more effective than looking among Scandinavian women.
At airports, random searches are anything but. Guards all too often search the elderly, or those with small children because they are the least likely to make a scene. I guess this is convenient for airport screeners, but it hardly makes anyone safer.
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve T:
Is it true that French fries have been renamed Freedom Fries in the US (I heard it somewhere,but it sounds too daft to be true).
Actually, only morons have have done this (PJP excepted - I think he's only deluded & not actually a moron). While it is true that the banana republicans who run the US Congress did make the House cafeteria change the name, and apparently the banana-in-chief made the change the French Toast to Freediom Toast on Airforce One. The vast majority of Americans still call them french fries and so do the restaurants. While quite embassasing to many of us Americans, I guess it's also funny since even the bananas didn't stop eating the stuff, just changed the name. Maybe the French should retaliate by changing the name of American cheese to Hypocrites cheese or You lied about the WMD's cheese.
I think I'm gonna start calling Vodka, apple juice, then I can claim I'm not really getting drunk - No officer, it's just apple juice.
Cheers!
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Rob, you keep making reference to doing profiling right. How can that possibly be done on a major scale? The few examples you've listed are all in very controlled circumstances & done by "experts". The kind of profiling we're talking about here involves far too many people as profilers for it to achieve the kind of perfection you're talking about.
Personally, I don't even think the experts can do it right. I'd put profiling in the same boat with polygraph testing. Junk science, for the most part.
Cheers!
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quote:
Originally posted by Wingnut-EL:
Actually, only morons have have done this
forgive my moroning, but its actually not that uncommon a practice. its similar to how we now call them "hot dogs"
quote:
Originally posted by Wingnut-EL:
Maybe the French should retaliate by changing the name of American cheese to Hypocrites cheese or You lied about the WMD's cheese.
or, better yet, "hier zu speichern keine cheese"
quote:
Originally posted by Wingnut-EL:
Rob, you keep making reference to doing profiling right. How can that possibly be done on a major scale?
just like anything else that's done on a major scale.
cops have protocol. even college campus security has protocol. watching any episode of COPS (1-3 am on court tv!) will show you that there are thousands of regular officers all over the country that can handle even the most bizarre situations with ease, because of training, procedure, and profiling.
thats not to say it would be flawless, but... again, what is?
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
if a buncha posters sign on the dcmbs in, oh, 1999 or 2000 with the names... i dunno... "natureboy lover" or "natureboyz rule" or "natureboyz are gay like nowhereman" and all of them cause trouble... you'd think that crazy moderator would be wrong to be a lil wary of future "natureboy __" screen names?
I'M CALLIN' MY LAWYER!!!
BSAMS!!!!!!!!
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quote:
Originally posted by Wingnut-EL:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve T:
Is it true that French fries have been renamed Freedom Fries in the US (I heard it somewhere,but it sounds too daft to be true).
Actually, only morons have have done this (PJP excepted - I think he's only deluded & not actually a moron). While it is true that the banana republicans who run the US Congress did make the House cafeteria change the name, and apparently the banana-in-chief made the change the French Toast to Freediom Toast on Airforce One. The vast majority of Americans still call them french fries and so do the restaurants. While quite embassasing to many of us Americans, I guess it's also funny since even the bananas didn't stop eating the stuff, just changed the name. Maybe the French should retaliate by changing the name of American cheese to Hypocrites cheese or You lied about the WMD's cheese.
I think I'm gonna start calling Vodka, apple juice, then I can claim I'm not really getting drunk - No officer, it's just apple juice.
Cheers!
LOL......I like the Apple Juice idea.
And thanks for excluding me form being a moron. I can live with being delusional. ![[eh?]](images/icons/confused.gif)
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve T:
Sorry mate, but I'm missing the logic on that one. Please enlighten me!
Steve I'll explain it in a very simple way.
Do you call them French Fries in the UK?......the answer is no........you call them Chips. The British would never dare call anything in their country.....French.
You have your own unique name for the same product......that's all we're doing.
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I don't know the origins of the name so it may not be the normal English bigotry towards the french that causes it.
Also our chips are quite different to your fries (thicker and a darn sight tastier!). We call French Fries French fries in places that sell those skinny little things.
While we're discussing the French:
1. Will they ever actually change their flag to a white one (just kidding!)?
2. Why do they take all the blame over disgreeing with America over Iraq? the only countries the US had on side were the UK, Spain and a few little places they bought off with financial aid.
There seemed to be an attitude that just because of the World Wars the French should do what they are told.
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![[whaaaa!]](eek01.gif)
