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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
FUCK MXY YOU TOLD NOW HE'S GUNNA HUNT ME DOWN! YOU BASTARD!
He's gonna blacklist you at Hop Sing's!
YOU NAMED NAMES?!?!?
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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"With your reasoning, you could very well say that a writer would feel that his skills and freedom are being smothered because he’s not allowed to have Batman or Superman kill anyone."
If, somehow, he manages to make a good story out of Superman or The Bat-Man killing anyone, then yeah, he's being smothered.
"Selective continuity would have that too you know."
No. The whole point is that it wouldn't have that. Marz would have been free to use Donna Troy as much as he wanted in spite of what was going on in Byrne's book.
"Waid was able to do it splendidly with Batman in JLA. He hates that character, but he characterized him just fine and gave him fair/logical amount of inclusion."
The fact that he hates him doesn't mean he has a different view of him. Perhaps he hates him because of how he sees him. And that's how he used him. If I recall, he revealed The Bat-Man keeps secret records on how to defeat each of the JLA members. In my mind that's something despicable. Maybe Waid hates The Bat-Man because he sees him as someone that would do something like that, and he managed to make a good story out of it.
"I had a job I hated a few days ago (I quit). But just because I hated it doesn’t mean that I did everything half-assed. I’m not going to excuse “human nature”. Sorry."
Writing is something different. You HAVE to believe in what you're doing to produce a good story. Especially in comics: you gotta admit that when there's love for the characters good stories come easier. If DC hired writers like an office hires people, not caring if they hate what they're doing, we would have lameness and mediocrity all around. Geoff Johns is doing an amazing job using continuity. Don't you think he's a guy who loves his continuity? Something like that wouldn't come out of a guy who hates it.
"Yes they are. They’re hired to follow continuity just as they are hired to write stories. If they tell them to, then they’re hired to."
That's an awful vision of the comic industry, I must say.
"(continuity) doesn’t have to (get in the way of telling a good story)."
It can. Say you wanna write a first meeting between two characters. The whole story is based on the fact that it's the very first meeting ever. It's basic to the plot that the story be the first time they. But, some guy already wrote a first meeting between those characters in a story nobody remembers from 15 years ago, that is in continuity. What do you? Do the first meeting and then brainwash the characters so they can have the second and think it's the first? That's fucking lame.
"I’m not saying they have to devote as much time needed to justify something, because that could take awhile (already explained that too). I understand the situation. Relatively speaking, if they don’t much they need to explain, just go on and explain as briefly as possible. If they have they have a lot, do as much as you can briefly as possible without ruining the story. Or, if you feel like letting your talent show, just write your explanations with subtlety throughout the book without letting the story go bland. It’s been done. The best example is the first arc for Lucifer. Carey explained everything using that Navajo girl as a mouth piece for the questions from the readers. That’s one of the most basic types of written justification. There are plenty more and others just waiting to be invented."
But don't you think Carey wanted to do that? Had he been against it, don't you think the quality would be different?
"I don’t buy that. Moore could have just used Manhattan’s godhood to change everything back. Not the only option I see either…"
Change everything back... Lame. Down there with brainwashing everyone. You might as well not do it. If you don't think Watchmen would be radically different had it been fitted into the DCU I urge you to read it again. Serious implications are made about whoever becomes a vigilante. The fact that Manhattan is the only superhero is really important. The fact that costumed vigilantes are outlawed is essential to the plot. I could go on and on...
"I don’t know if you ignored the fact that I already went over how violating continuity in comicbooks and all around killing the movement of one story (as I explained comicbooks as being) is just as potent a mistake as disrupting the order of words or pages in a singular book. It is after taking this into mind that we draw to the conclusion that merit comes from organizing continuity just as much as making a story."
I didn't ignore it, I simply don't see it as a mistake, or as something relevant for that matter. I thought that was implied. By saying that I judge writers on the quality of the stories the make (crazy me!) I'm stating that I don't believe in what you're saying. I have a hard time concieving that someone has a vision like that, actually.
"I know many many people who don’t agree with Gaiman on that."
Don't you think Gaiman has a say on that?
"Your right, it was great, and while it was and felt like a forced inclusion for whatever reason I don’t know (note: not the same as being told to FOLLOW continuity), I thought he handled it splendidly. The book didn’t disappoint me. And even if I and everyone—And I do mean EVERYONE—Felt the latter of those inclusions, those are a few instances. I know MANY more situations where story alone (without continuity) failed me (Legends of the Dark Knight)."
The fact is that these inclusions ("suggested" by DC, contract in hand), to create a sense of a "consistent universe", can boost up sales at the time, but in the end, when the story is collected and presented as literature, they do more bad than good and the writers feels the need to justify it. Stories like Swamp Thing and Sandman are obviously better off as far away from the DCU as possible, only including few elements (most of them obscure and out of continuity), but at the time they were starting out DC tried to link them to the DCU to create the sense of consistency that in the end damaged the book.
I'm tired. I'll continue some other day, though skimming through what comes next I think I've covered everything. These things always end the same way: both people repeating themselves to death though it's obvious they won't change the other person's mind.
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Fuck... The first half of the post got lost when I copied and pasted this from Word. Fuck Word.
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Quote:
It can. Say you wanna write a first meeting between two characters. The whole story is based on the fact that it's the very first meeting ever. It's basic to the plot that the story be the first time they. But, some guy already wrote a first meeting between those characters in a story nobody remembers from 15 years ago, that is in continuity. What do you? Do the first meeting and then brainwash the characters so they can have the second and think it's the first? That's fucking lame.
Oooh, oooh! I know, I know!!
I, a proffesional writer, would go to message boards and whine how much continuity sucks because it doesn't let me hack the work.
Did I get it right??
I would whine that someone else did my idea first and, instead of being trully creative and come up with ANOTHER idea, I would cry and piss and moan that continuity is chocking me?
OR maybe I can just write a story that picks up from that first meeting and runs alongside it, how about that?
It has happened before, where a writer tells a story that runs alongside someone else's.
Look at Karl Kesel's World's Finest maxi series.
This is just one of many examples of a completely original story that was told within the framework of Superman and Batman's Post Crisis continuity.
Of course, one has to be creative to do this. If one just likes to whine because someone else beat them to it, then that's that person's hang up, it's THEIR problem.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
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Like I said before, if ever I feel like replying to this, it'll prolly be a matter of months, but I would like to comment on this:
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Change everything back... Lame. Down there with brainwashing everyone.
Not in Watchmen's case. I actually took this into account. I'd agree with you had this been a story about shooting up bad guys and destroying cosmic evils. But no.
The entire foundation of the story was to get moral and enlightening points across about the essence and realities of the heros' lives and then the cause and effect stages of such. There was no real greater bearing of the story. It wasn't about conquering a huge bad guy or saving the universe, it was outlining a sort of morbid enlightenment about the reality and not the face value of heroes.
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You might as well not do it.
Nah. Manhattan would still know, and the fact that his view point is where we'd see this from is all that would count in the end.
And you know it prolly would have been one of the first times that plot device was ever used. It wouldn't be repetitous and such. So excuse the presumptuousness when I say you prolly wouldn't be too sore about it if it came out that way.
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I have a question. Exactly HOW does continuity prevent a good writer from writing ANY original story he wants to?
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DuplicateMan said:
I have a question. Exactly HOW does continuity prevent a good writer from writing ANY original story he wants to?
It doesn't.
It stops fans-turned-writers who've been waiting 10-15-20 years to do a story from doing the story the way they thought about it those 20-15-10 years earlier, so they go out of their way to tell the readers how bad continuity is in search for supporters that will agree with them.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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ManofTheAtom said:
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It can. Say you wanna write a first meeting between two characters. The whole story is based on the fact that it's the very first meeting ever. It's basic to the plot that the story be the first time they. But, some guy already wrote a first meeting between those characters in a story nobody remembers from 15 years ago, that is in continuity. What do you? Do the first meeting and then brainwash the characters so they can have the second and think it's the first? That's fucking lame.
Oooh, oooh! I know, I know!!
I, a proffesional writer, would go to message boards and whine how much continuity sucks because it doesn't let me hack the work.
Did I get it right??
I would whine that someone else did my idea first and, instead of being trully creative and come up with ANOTHER idea, I would cry and piss and moan that continuity is chocking me?
OR maybe I can just write a story that picks up from that first meeting and runs alongside it, how about that?
It has happened before, where a writer tells a story that runs alongside someone else's.
Look at Karl Kesel's World's Finest maxi series.
This is just one of many examples of a completely original story that was told within the framework of Superman and Batman's Post Crisis continuity.
Of course, one has to be creative to do this. If one just likes to whine because someone else beat them to it, then that's that person's hang up, it's THEIR problem.
This goes for both of you, but for MOTA mostly.
Are you capable of understanding that someone doesn't like continuity? Is that within your capacities? You think it's integral to good comics. Well, big whoop, I don't.
Why should EVERYONE live by it, respect it, and fucking limit themselves by it when only a part of the audience believes in it? Because it's easy to do it? A) It's not. You say so, but hey, guess what, you're not a professional writer. B ) Even if it was... That's no excuse for forcing people to do it. If I was against jumping off fucking bridges and there was a easy way to do it I'd still not do it.
"But it's not limiting..." you're gonna say. Well, for me and for a lot of people it is. I'm not saying this because I hate stories ruled by continuity, I'm saying this honestly and because I fucking wanna be able to pick up a fucking book and get a good fucking story without having anything getting in the way of it, be it giant nazi zombies, the NBA, Gerard Depardiu, or continuity.
Continuity as an option or continuity as an obligation. Is it so hard to see which one is the intollerant one? Which one leaves no space for the other? As long as there are writers willing to write within a strict continuity that's what you'll get. If there's writers that don't IT'S FOR A REASON.
Why are you so afraid of making it an option and not an obligation? If it's so obvious that it's the only way to go and that it's done so much good for comics, then everyone should go for it, don't you think? Unless, of course, they're part of an international continuity hating conspiracy desgined to bring it down from the inside...
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Pariah said:Not in Watchmen's case. I actually took this into account. I'd agree with you had this been a story about shooting up bad guys and destroying cosmic evils. But no.
The entire foundation of the story was to get moral and enlightening points across about the essence and realities of the heros' lives and then the cause and effect stages of such. There was no real greater bearing of the story. It wasn't about conquering a huge bad guy or saving the universe, it was outlining a sort of morbid enlightenment about the reality and not the face value of heroes.
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You might as well not do it.
Nah. Manhattan would still know, and the fact that his view point is where we'd see this from is all that would count in the end.
And you know it prolly would have been one of the first times that plot device was ever used. It wouldn't be repetitous and such. So excuse the presumptuousness when I say you prolly wouldn't be too sore about it if it came out that way.
A) Undoing has always been lame. Taking the time to undo because of outside factors (preserve the DCU as it was) and not because the story dictates so can be a great source of lameness. Moore would have pulled it off only if he had found a good story to tell with the undoing. And, I don't know if you're aware of this, but good ideas are often born spontaneously and not because of necessity ("I have to find a good idea for this specific thing (undoing) or the story will be flawed"), in fact, it's when an author feels the pressure of having to come up with good stories out of necessity that the level of quality starts decreasing (which is why often runs don't end as good as they started unless the writer stops them at the right time: at the beggining the writer was using a setting to serve a story, and when the setting proves to be popular it's the setting first, the story later, so it becomes harder and harder to come up with good stories). You may find good stories when they're forced on the writer ("cause it's his job"), but you'll never find anything genius. I don't know about you, but it's the genius moments what keep me coming.
B ) When Watchmen starts the world is a different place than it was in the DCU at the time. The changes in society brought by Dr Manhattan don't happen after the starting point of the story, they happen before. How could have Moore introduced the changes if, instead of creating a new world, he had to use an already established one? He could have made it so the changes were less noticeable, but that would have changed the impact they had in the story.
C) So, Watchmen is an epic story that gets undone by the end, but for the current universe to exist it must have happened. So it happened and it didn't. Does that sound familiar? In what epic 12 part series from the mid 80's does that happen too? It was hard to accept and explain when it happened once, do you think the readers of the time would have accepted it happening twice? It's like the twist at the end of The Others: many people, some very intelligent, feel that movie is tainted because they think the twist is taken from The Sixth Sense, and because they can't accept it being pulled on them twice because of it's complexity.
Watchmen is a carefully constructed story where EVERYTHING matters. Messing with any of those pieces may make a good story, but not something genius like Watchmen.
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Quote:
DuplicateMan said:
I have a question. Exactly HOW does continuity prevent a good writer from writing ANY original story he wants to?
See part one of my above post. And the Green Lantern example (I don't know if that got deleted from my post. If it did I can type it again)
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ManofTheAtom said:
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DuplicateMan said:
I have a question. Exactly HOW does continuity prevent a good writer from writing ANY original story he wants to?
It doesn't.
It stops fans-turned-writers who've been waiting 10-15-20 years to do a story from doing the story the way they thought about it those 20-15-10 years earlier, so they go out of their way to tell the readers how bad continuity is in search for supporters that will agree with them.
Amazing, those are exactly my motivations for arguing this. Bravo!
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Why are you so afraid of making it an option and not an obligation? If it's so obvious that it's the only way to go and that it's done so much good for comics, then everyone should go for it, don't you think? Unless, of course, they're part of an international continuity hating conspiracy desgined to bring it down from the inside...
Of course continuity is an option... they're called Elseworlds at DC and pretty much anything at Marvel.
Look at Darwin Cooke's New Frontier.
He wanted it to be in continuity, found it frustraring to make it in continuity and then was told to just tell his story and not worry about where it fits, so he's doing it.
Other writers, like Waid, want what they do to BE continuity.
It's not enough for them to just tell their story, they want it to be THE story.
THAT'S the problem.
When writers aren't happy with just telling their stories, when they expect it to become the new rules.
Darwin isn't interested in reinventing the wheel, he just wants to have fun telling his story.
Waid is interested in reinventing Superman because his Silver Age fanboy ego won't let him understand Byrne's Man of Steel and Crisis.
Then you have writers like Kesel and his World's Finest maxi series.
This is a writer that can have fun writing comics IN continuity and doesn't have to bitch, whine and cry in search of fanboys that agree with him that continuity's wrong.
So maybe you can't read something like World's Finest without crying, but, you see, that's becasuse you're ignorant about the content of such a series and you assume that it requieres that you have knowledge from other stories.
All that knowledge does, in relation to this or any other continuity story, is ENHANCE the experience.
It makes you go "Hah, I remember that!"
Yesterday I saw an episode of Angel where Spike told Fred about when he met Wesley years ago.
For someone that's NEVER seen Buffy, it sounded like one character explaining his relationship to another character, the same way we had heard about Spike having known Angel 200 years ago but never seen it.
To those that saw Buffy, like me, such a scene, such exposition, brings a smile to their face.
Spike says "I met him when he was a young Watcher, just starting out".
A fairly simple line of dialogue that, to those who know better, brings a sense of nostalgia and a grin to their face.
To those that don't know better, hopefully, will make curious to know more or they will just shrug their shoulders and think "Ah, so he knows Wesley, that's cool".
See the difference?
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Amazing, those are exactly my motivations for arguing this. Bravo!
Lol.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Mxy, I already told you this once before.
NO one forces writers to follow continuity, that's THEIR choice.
Someone like Cooke took the choice that Levitz gave him to set his story outside continuity once it proved that there was no room in continuity fot it.
This made Cooke EXTREMELY happy and he went on with his story.
But once a writer CHOOSES to tell a story in continuity, there are RULES that have to be followed.
An American that drives a car in England has to follow their traffic rules, right? No matter how much he'd like to drive on the right he HAS to drive on the left, no matter how many whinning he makes.
If he wanted to keep driving on the right then he'd go somewhere OTHER than England.
Same goes for writers.
If they want to work IN continuity, then they have to follow the rules...
Some writers are just damn whinners.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Mxy: I never read Watchmen, but I thought it took place outside the regular DCU. Which would make it an Elseworlds. Or an alternate universe which is really the same thing. But it presumably had its own continuity.
If I'm wrong in the above, feel free to tell me.
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DuplicateMan said:
Mxy: I never read Watchmen, but I thought it took place outside the regular DCU. Which would make it an Elseworlds. Or an alternate universe which is really the same thing. But it presumably had its own continuity.
If I'm wrong in the above, feel free to tell me.
You're not wrong.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
Of course continuity is an option... they're called Elseworlds at DC and pretty much anything at Marvel.
Look at Darwin Cooke's New Frontier.
He wanted it to be in continuity, found it frustraring to make it in continuity and then was told to just tell his story and not worry about where it fits, so he's doing it.
Other writers, like Waid, want what they do to BE continuity.
It's not enough for them to just tell their story, they want it to be THE story.
THAT'S the problem.
When writers aren't happy with just telling their stories, when they expect it to become the new rules.
Darwin isn't interested in reinventing the wheel, he just wants to have fun telling his story.
Waid is interested in reinventing Superman because his Silver Age fanboy ego won't let him understand Byrne's Man of Steel and Crisis.
Then you have writers like Kesel and his World's Finest maxi series.
This is a writer that can have fun writing comics IN continuity and doesn't have to bitch, whine and cry in search of fanboys that agree with him that continuity's wrong.
So maybe you can't read something like World's Finest without crying, but, you see, that's becasuse you're ignorant about the content of such a series and you assume that it requieres that you have knowledge from other stories.
All that knowledge does, in relation to this or any other continuity story, is ENHANCE the experience.
It makes you go "Hah, I remember that!"
Yesterday I saw an episode of Angel where Spike told Fred about when he met Wesley years ago.
For someone that's NEVER seen Buffy, it sounded like one character explaining his relationship to another character, the same way we had heard about Spike having known Angel 200 years ago but never seen it.
To those that saw Buffy, like me, such a scene, such exposition, brings a smile to their face.
Spike says "I met him when he was a young Watcher, just starting out".
A fairly simple line of dialogue that, to those who know better, brings a sense of nostalgia and a grin to their face.
To those that don't know better, hopefully, will make curious to know more or they will just shrug their shoulders and think "Ah, so he knows Wesley, that's cool".
See the difference?
You walk in circles. We've been over most of that. You've been inside Waid's head. I understand that. I wish I had the power to do that, but I don't. By doing what he did Byrne became God, and by doing something essentially similar, only different in content, Waid became the Devil. It doesn't matter that the changes made in the story are subjective, you don't like them so he must have a secret agenda. Waid and his secret hidden agenda. Do you think his comics would see the light of day if DC didn't want the same thing he does? You should be happy about DiDio's interview: it means someone can come in and ignore Waid, maybe even using Byrne as a basis for Superman.
I'd just like to rescue a couple things from your repetitive rant:
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ManofTheAtom said:
Of course continuity is an option... they're called Elseworlds at DC and pretty much anything at Marvel.
We've been over this. What, one, two books a month? Less? Against a shitload of comics that HAS to use continuity? (or at least HAD, I don't know how things are now). Just like you can accept that there's a graphic novel that doesn't belong in continuity, why can't you accept the same could happen in one of the monthly comics?
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He wanted it to be in continuity, found it frustraring to make it in continuity and then was told to just tell his story and not worry about where it fits, so he's doing it.
According to Pariah, he's less of a writer because he didn't want to use continuity. He "can't write adaptively".
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So maybe you can't read something like World's Finest without crying, but, you see, that's becasuse you're ignorant about the content of such a series and you assume that it requieres that you have knowledge from other stories.
Ex-fucking-cuse me?! I'll have you know I've been looking forward to reading that series for YEARS. I know what's it about and how it's done, I know it uses continuity. And yet, if I ever saw it I'd buy it in a second.
I've said this a million times but I'll repeat it again for your benefit, because you can't retain anything for more than five minutes: I'M CAPABLE OF ENJOYING STORIES THAT USE CONTINUITY AS LONG AS THEY'RE WELL DONE. At the same time, I'd hate a story that doesn't use continuity if it wasn't well done. I wouldn't cry or have a heart attack because of the fact that a story uses continuity or not, that's you. My whole point is that continuity should be allowed as much as lack of it. YOU are the intollerant one, not me. I don't close myself to things, I don't make prejudices, that's YOU.
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Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
Mxy, I already told you this once before.
NO one forces writers to follow continuity, that's THEIR choice.
Someone like Cooke took the choice that Levitz gave him to set his story outside continuity once it proved that there was no room in continuity fot it.
This made Cooke EXTREMELY happy and he went on with his story.
But once a writer CHOOSES to tell a story in continuity, there are RULES that have to be followed.
Okay, okay, I can buy that. But... what if a writer wants to make an out of continuity story in the main books? Can he do it or is that a sin?
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Same goes for writers.
If they want to work IN continuity, then they have to follow the rules...
So, the works that don't respect continuity are outside of it. If there's a run that lasts three years and it doesn't respect continuity, you may ignore it. You're free to do so.
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Some writers are just damn whinners.
And you're not? No, seriously, don't you consider what you do whinning? Sure, it's for a different reason... but it's still whinning. I'm whinning too, to an extent. You whine in monumental scales. How can you complain about someone whinning when you're doing the same thing, and worst? Because you think you're right? Guess what; everyone thinks they're right. Me included. Waid included.
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DuplicateMan said:
Mxy: I never read Watchmen, but I thought it took place outside the regular DCU. Which would make it an Elseworlds. Or an alternate universe which is really the same thing. But it presumably had its own continuity.
If I'm wrong in the above, feel free to tell me.
You're 100% right. What Pariah and I were talking about was something completely different. I said that if Moore had been forced to work within the DCU (for example, within a monthly title), the story would have been radically different and not the masterpiece Watchmen is. Pariah said it could have adapted perfectly.
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Okay, okay, I can buy that. But... what if a writer wants to make an out of continuity story in the main books? Can he do it or is that a sin?
You mean like a few months ago when Gibbons and Weeks told an out of continuity Captain America story in the main book that MAY or may NOT have happened?
It's all in the execution...
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So, the works that don't respect continuity are outside of it. If there's a run that lasts three years and it doesn't respect continuity, you may ignore it. You're free to do so.
Byrne's about to do it to Acurdi's Doom Patrol...
Just like the above reply hangs on the execution, this one hangs on the NEED for ignoring the stories.
Superman doesn't need to have his current continuity ignored.
The Doom Patrol doesn't have that much of a problem because their connection to the Post Crisis DC U has been extremely thin (in some places more than in others).
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And you're not? No, seriously, don't you consider what you do whinning? Sure, it's for a different reason... but it's still whinning. I'm whinning too, to an extent. You whine in monumental scales. How can you complain about someone whinning when you're doing the same thing, and worst? Because you think you're right? Guess what; everyone thinks they're right. Me included. Waid included.
Yes, but you only think you're right while I know I'm right 
Just like the first reply was about execution and the second one was about need, this one is about conviction 
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
You walk in circles. We've been over most of that. You've been inside Waid's head. I understand that. I wish I had the power to do that, but I don't. By doing what he did Byrne became God, and by doing something essentially similar, only different in content, Waid became the Devil. It doesn't matter that the changes made in the story are subjective, you don't like them so he must have a secret agenda. Waid and his secret hidden agenda. Do you think his comics would see the light of day if DC didn't want the same thing he does? You should be happy about DiDio's interview: it means someone can come in and ignore Waid, maybe even using Byrne as a basis for Superman.
I'd just like to rescue a couple things from your repetitive rant:
Read Waid's interview at CBR.
He said what I've known all along;
Smallville TV or show or not, he would have put Lex back in Smallville because that's how his limited intelect in regards to this concept works, through the outdated eyes of the Silver Age.
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We've been over this. What, one, two books a month? Less? Against a shitload of comics that HAS to use continuity? (or at least HAD, I don't know how things are now). Just like you can accept that there's a graphic novel that doesn't belong in continuity, why can't you accept the same could happen in one of the monthly comics?
Becuase it's not the 1960's anymore, Mxy.
Today, or at least before Berganza and Waid fucked it up, Superman comics, all 4, told a continous story.
Instead of having wait a whole month to read part two of the story you only had to wait a week.
How fucking great was that?
Your hang up seems to be the difference between numbering and title.
People have no problem buying two issues of Ultimate Spider-Man a month, but ask them to buy three of Superman and they go ballistic with the "they should be different and tell outdated out of continuity stories like in the 60's"...
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According to Pariah, he's less of a writer because he didn't want to use continuity. He "can't write adaptively".
There's no way Cooke's story could be adapted to work in continuity.
New Frontier is the way the Silver Age would have been told had the creators not written down to their audience.
In light of Crisis, Year One (Batman), Gods and Monsters (Wonder Woman), Emerald Dawn (Green Lantern) and Man of Steel, something like New Frontier is redundant.
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Ex-fucking-cuse me?! I'll have you know I've been looking forward to reading that series for YEARS. I know what's it about and how it's done, I know it uses continuity. And yet, if I ever saw it I'd buy it in a second.
I've said this a million times but I'll repeat it again for your benefit, because you can't retain anything for more than five minutes: I'M CAPABLE OF ENJOYING STORIES THAT USE CONTINUITY AS LONG AS THEY'RE WELL DONE. At the same time, I'd hate a story that doesn't use continuity if it wasn't well done. I wouldn't cry or have a heart attack because of the fact that a story uses continuity or not, that's you. My whole point is that continuity should be allowed as much as lack of it. YOU are the intollerant one, not me. I don't close myself to things, I don't make prejudices, that's YOU.
You should really stop buying modern comics, man.
You'd be happier buying the archives, trust me on this.
12 or more issues per volume in the bright shinny paper and they have EVERYTHING you're looking for in your comics...
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
You mean like a few months ago when Gibbons and Weeks told an out of continuity Captain America story in the main book that MAY or may NOT have happened?
If that issue doesn't make you have a heart attack because of the line "may or may not have happened" in the solictiation or whatever, then what's the problem here??? I'm arguing that writers should be free to write stories like that within main titles if they want without any major explanations that get in the way of storytelling, and I don't think the line "may or may not have happened" is a major explanation, in fact, it's pretty reasonable to prevent heads of people like you from blowing up.
I'm all for adding the line "may or may not have happened" whenever a writer feels like skipping continuity.
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Byrne's about to do it to Acurdi's Doom Patrol...
I'm so fucking happy he's free to do it. Even if the Acurdi Doom Patrol rocked (i liked the little I saw of it). It's still there, in the sense that people can still read it and enjoy it, and in the sense that writers can still go and use it for basis of their interpretation and ignore Byrne because of selective continuity.
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Just like the above reply hangs on the execution, this one hangs on the NEED for ignoring the stories.
Superman doesn't need to have his current continuity ignored.
Ah, so books can only get rebooted if you think they need to be ignored. I guess the difference between you and Pariah is that Pariah defends continuity on principle, going with the good and the bad, and you defend it out of ego, only using the argument when it defends your interests.
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The Doom Patrol doesn't have that much of a problem because their connection to the Post Crisis DC U has been extremely thin (in some places more than in others).
It's still in continuity. They fought in Invasion. How can you defend MoS saying it shouldn't be rebooted because it's in continuity and it would need an in continuity justification to be rebooted (you said yourself you would be all up for Birthright if there was a Crisis like event to back it up), and then suddenly say such things don't matter with the Doom Patrol because you happen to think it needs the reboot? You just never thought you'd bump into someone that actually remembers the shit you say, didn't you?
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Yes, but you only think you're right while I know I'm right
I hope that means it's a joke, because if you really think so then, by definition, you're stupid.
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Just like the first reply was about execution and the second one was about need, this one is about conviction
If you KNOW without a doubt you're right about everything you say here, then it's not conviction, it's blind fanatism. And that's never good.
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Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
Read Waid's interview at CBR.
He said what I've known all along;
Smallville TV or show or not, he would have put Lex back in Smallville because that's how his limited intelect in regards to this concept works, through the outdated eyes of the Silver Age.
That's his fucking opinion. I don't like it either, but I don't think he suddenly became a retard because of it.
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Becuase it's not the 1960's anymore, Mxy.
Today, or at least before Berganza and Waid fucked it up, Superman comics, all 4, told a continous story.
Nu-uh. That's the 90's. Time to move on.
It's not the 1990's anymore, MOTA.
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Instead of having wait a whole month to read part two of the story you only had to wait a week.
What's so bad about waiting a month? You wait a month for every other character. If waiting only a week means getting a crappy stories (like the ones produced at the end of the Jurgens era), then I say let's wait three weeks more.
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How fucking great was that?
It was fucking great for a good while. Then it became lame. Time to move on, like with everything else. It's the nature of things. You claim you want evolution yet you say comics to be stuck in the 90's. So you liked the 90's. Big whoop. I bet a lot of people like the 60's.
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Your hang up seems to be the difference between numbering and title.
People have no problem buying two issues of Ultimate Spider-Man a month, but ask them to buy three of Superman and they go ballistic with the "they should be different and tell outdated out of continuity stories like in the 60's"...
I do have a problem buying two Spider-Man titles a month. It's excessive.
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There's no way Cooke's story could be adapted to work in continuity.
New Frontier is the way the Silver Age would have been told had the creators not written down to their audience.
In light of Crisis, Year One (Batman), Gods and Monsters (Wonder Woman), Emerald Dawn (Green Lantern) and Man of Steel, something like New Frontier is redundant.
Tell that to Pariah, not me. He even thinks Watchmen could be adapted to the DCU.
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You should really stop buying modern comics, man.
I only buy backissues, and they're all modern comics. Starman, Preacher, Madman, the ABC line, etc. The exceptions. I'm quite happy with those. Also whatever I find that I don't already have from from JLE, Loeb's Flash, Jurgens' Superman, Marz's Green Lantern, and a bunch of other uncompleted series.
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You'd be happier buying the archives, trust me on this.
I'd buy some archives if: A) I had time to read them AND the few modern comics I buy and B ) They weren't so fucking expensive.
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12 or more issues per volume in the bright shinny paper and they have EVERYTHING you're looking for in your comics...
Well done stories? That's EVERYTHING I look for in comics. Continuity or no continuity.
Now, how this whole thing you just said applies to my argument, I have no idea.
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
If that issue doesn't make you have a heart attack because of the line "may or may not have happened" in the solictiation or whatever, then what's the problem here??? I'm arguing that writers should be free to write stories like that within main titles if they want without any major explanations that get in the way of storytelling, and I don't think the line "may or may not have happened" is a major explanation, in fact, it's pretty reasonable to prevent heads of people like you from blowing up.
I'm all for adding the line "may or may not have happened" whenever a writer feels like skipping continuity.
Who says it was in the solicitation? That was my explanation for it based on the ending.
Birthright can still be told without connecting it to continuity, yet both the editor and the writer WANT to connect it to continuity.
See, the problem isn't whether or not such stories can be told, the problem is when the writer wants that story to be the ONLY story, which is what's happening with BR.
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I'm so fucking happy he's free to do it. Even if the Acurdi Doom Patrol rocked (i liked the little I saw of it). It's still there, in the sense that people can still read it and enjoy it, and in the sense that writers can still go and use it for basis of their interpretation and ignore Byrne because of selective continuity.
This is not a good thing, Mxy.
Byrne is as wrong on DP as Waid is on Superman.
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Ah, so books can only get rebooted if you think they need to be ignored. I guess the difference between you and Pariah is that Pariah defends continuity on principle, going with the good and the bad, and you defend it out of ego, only using the argument when it defends your interests.
No, I defend continuity and consistancy based on STORY.
BR has nothing to hang on to replace MoS, just like DP doesn't have anything to hang on to replace Acurdi's run.
MoS had Crisis.
It's all a matter of the solution coming AFTER the problem, not the other way around.
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It's still in continuity. They fought in Invasion. How can you defend MoS saying it shouldn't be rebooted because it's in continuity and it would need an in continuity justification to be rebooted (you said yourself you would be all up for Birthright if there was a Crisis like event to back it up), and then suddenly say such things don't matter with the Doom Patrol because you happen to think it needs the reboot? You just never thought you'd bump into someone that actually remembers the shit you say, didn't you?
I don't know much about the DP, I had no idea they had been in Invasion.
You just gave a reason why Byrne's reboot of it doesn't work.
I was going off on what little I knew about them, which is just the existance of the Vertigo series that was followed by the recent one that got canceled.
Being a Vertigo book, I didn't think there be a problem in rebooting.
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I hope that means it's a joke, because if you really think so then, by definition, you're stupid.
Nah
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If you KNOW without a doubt you're right about everything you say here, then it's not conviction, it's blind fanatism. And that's never good.
Considering that Waid wrote BR based on the idea that what he's putting down on paper is the absolute definite origin of Superman, I'd say that he's the fanatic, specially when it comes to the outdated SA ideas he's using.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:Who says it was in the solicitation? That was my explanation for it based on the ending.
I said "the solicitation or whatever" to prevent that kind of response. The point is, that's how you saw it.
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Birthright can still be told without connecting it to continuity, yet both the editor and the writer WANT to connect it to continuity.
I see now that that's kind of the whole point of the story, isn't it? A new origin story for a new comic era.
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See, the problem isn't whether or not such stories can be told, the problem is when the writer wants that story to be the ONLY story, which is what's happening with BR.
A) Selective continuity means it's NOT the only story. If a writer has the interest to use the MoS origin as basis for a Superman story he's free to do so.
 Don't most people want their story to be in continuity? Didn't Byrne want the same thing? Wasn't MoS the "only" story before Birthright from your perspective? What's the difference now? That you don't like it? That's not significant enough to make a difference.
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This is not a good thing, Mxy.
Byrne is as wrong on DP as Waid is on Superman.
Good arguments. I'll debate that:
No.
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No, I defend continuity and consistancy based on STORY.
BR has nothing to hang on to replace MoS, just like DP doesn't have anything to hang on to replace Acurdi's run.
MoS had Crisis.
It's all a matter of the solution coming AFTER the problem, not the other way around.
Crisis is something that happened BECAUSE of the need to reboot, not the other way. It's a formality. Crisis rocked because it was a new concept, but when they tried to do it again it resulted in a mediocre story (Zero Hour). I think it's wise to skip a resource like that this time if there's no real interest in writing that story, even if it makes anal retentive continuity fans bang their heads against the wall trying to make meaningless details fit in.
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I don't know much about the DP, I had no idea they had been in Invasion.
You just gave a reason why Byrne's reboot of it doesn't work.
I was going off on what little I knew about them, which is just the existance of the Vertigo series that was followed by the recent one that got canceled.
Being a Vertigo book, I didn't think there be a problem in rebooting.
So, eevn if it's a fucking good story, it shouldn't be told. Wait... it should be told in a sporadic Elseworlds special. And the JLA reference should be deleted. That page should be torn from every copy and burnt. All because they were in Invasion 15 years ago, a little detail not even a continuity freak remembers.
Yeah, that's sane.
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Considering that Waid wrote BR based on the idea that what he's putting down on paper is the absolute definite origin of Superman, I'd say that he's the fanatic, specially when it comes to the outdated SA ideas he's using.
He's AWARE that someone will replace him like he replace Byrne and like Byrne replaced the SA Superman. The whole point of doing a new origin is keeping the character fresh.
About it being influenced on the Silver Age: if you became a writer and in ten years you had to do a Superman origin to replace Birthright, what would you do? Seriously, what would you do?
I seriously doubt you'd come up with something completely new. Being the MoS fanatic you are, you'd go back to MoS and use it as your main influence. Then Birthright fans would say "This is outdated, this is based on something that happened 30 years ago, this is written by a fanboy turned writer..."
Can't you see? It's all about points of view.
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It's about ego when it should be about stories.
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Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
I still live im my parents basement.
now known as rex
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Quote:
rexstardust said:
I still live im my parents basement.
You do?
That's so sad.
I live in a second story duplex with panoramic windows...
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Do you have any sales figures to back it up?
now known as rex
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Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
It's about ego when it should be about stories.
Yeah, nice rebuttal.
You're the only egomaniac here. You said it yourself: you KNOW you're right. That's called being a big fucking egomaniac.
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rexstardust said:
Do you have any sales figures to back it up?
BR #1 sold 48,000+ copies.
Issue 7 sold 36,000+ copies.
In the same time frame, sales on the other three titles have gone up.
You can find them at www.icv2.com
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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That, ladies and gentlemen, is MOTA's attention span. No wonder this guy thinks Lefield is good.
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
That, ladies and gentlemen, is MOTA's attention span. No wonder this guy thinks Lefield is good.
What the fuck are you talking about now?
So I'm wrong and sales on the fucking title aren't going down?
Icv2 says they are... or are you blind and stupid too?
And I never said Liefeld was good, I said he was pasionate about the industry and the medium could use more people like him instead of the hacks you love so much.
Last edited by ManofTheAtom; 2004-03-17 7:24 PM.
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Sales don't mean anything. Titanic's the biggest grossing movie of all time.
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Quote:
rexstardust said:
Sales don't mean anything. Titanic's the biggest grossing movie of all time.
Because people saw it and liked it.
People read BR, didn't like it and so they stopped buying it.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
That, ladies and gentlemen, is MOTA's attention span. No wonder this guy thinks Lefield is good.
What the fuck are you talking about now?
So I'm wrong and sales on the fucking title aren't going down?
Icv2 says they are... or are you blind and stupid too?
You know, I just wrote a paragraph explaining you my joke. But then I deleted it. I figured, what's the use? You won't get it anyway.
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And I never said Liefeld was good,
I'm sorry, I forgot you're rich and buy comics you don't like.
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I said he was pasionate about the industry and the medium could use more people like him instead of the hacks you love so much.
What hacks I love so much? Alan Moore? Neil Gaiman?
And those hacks I "love" so much (by that I assume you mean Mark Waid and his imaginary troop of continuity conspirators you can't even name) are they not passionate about comics? According to you Waid is a fanboy turned writer. What if not passion does he have?
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Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
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rexstardust said:
Sales don't mean anything. Titanic's the biggest grossing movie of all time.
Because people saw it and liked it.
People read BR, didn't like it and so they stopped buying it.
I guess any Image explosion 90's comic that sold more than Watchmen is better than Moore's work, then.
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I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
I'm sorry, I forgot you're rich and buy comics you don't like.
Who said I didn't like Heroes Reborn?
Liefeld's Captain America was one of the best that that project had to offer, right after Lee's F4.
It is possible to think that an artist sucks but like his writing, you know? Just like it's possible to think that a writer sucks at penciling but like his stories.
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What hacks I love so much? Alan Moore? Neil Gaiman?
And those hacks I "love" so much (by that I assume you mean Mark Waid and his imaginary troop of continuity conspirators you can't even name) are they not passionate about comics? According to you Waid is a fanboy turned writer. What if not passion does he have?
It's one thing to be passionate about telling stories, it's another to be passionate about just making comics.
Those are two different thinks.
What comics need are STORYTELLERS, not fans turned writers who just want to revive an old era from their childhood.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Quote:
I'm Not Mister Mxypltk said:
I guess any Image explosion 90's comic that sold more than Watchmen is better than Moore's work, then.
Depends on your definition of better.
I find originality to be better than regurgitation.
I've met many dorks online that think that regurgitating the past is better than improving on the present.
Now, as to all the fucks in the previous post.
I'm sorry for those. The message stands as it but without them, they weren't meant for you, they were a carry over from another board just like last time.
I let my anger for someone else carry over to this conversation.
Last edited by ManofTheAtom; 2004-03-18 11:32 PM.
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So you met yourself online?
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