quote:Originally posted by kassandra: i don't really have a problem with that, rob. different is a good thing. i'd just like to be able to move on and discuss things without the bitterness that permeates the dc mb. i'm so not into that.
i'd rather spend my time working out, lolling about in the evening listening to chet baker & reading a book, or just talking to my boyfriend and dreaming of the future.
so, with that said, mister(?) and vw- let's just agree to disagree and table this once and for all. okay?
-kassandra
I can go with this. Let us just respectfully agree to disagree. I don't like bitterness either. I like to discuss but not argue. So yeah, lets just move on.....
Ok,Kassie....you really have been brainwashed....You actually call Jimenez' run REALISTIC??? LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
quote:Originally posted by kassandra: . there's very little romantic dialogue in the book, but you seem to find it so. perhaps if it were written so badly as, oh, glory, you might like it better? why do you have so much trouble accepting the fact that we're getting a realistic portrayal of diana-kassandra
mr. whatever your name is, i asked you politely to maintain a certain distance and yet you persist in assuming an almost vulgar familiarity with me, which you shall not enjoy in this life or any other. i see what your doing, and from now on i'll do what i do with your posts on the ww mb: ignore them. you really ought to have spoken to your friend "sarah." perhaps she could have explained my appeal for civility to you in terms at your level of understanding. bottom line: your kill-filed.
happy christmas!
-kassandra
quote:Originally posted by funkherelikeitornot: Jeez....talk about being on crack... Phil Jimenez' Wonder Woman...realistic...LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Kassie,you kill me...
quote:oh, and as far as diana being somewhat different from marston's initial concept, marston never really showed us what a culture like hers would be like, he never went beneath her skin to show us the woman/goddess residing within. all of what perez and now jimenez (smile while your taking your prozac) have shown us has taken that into account. if a girl was blessed (not given superpowers easily stripped by some third rate villains- and how could they really as the gifts were imbued with her lifeforce?) with extraordinary gifts by her deities at birth (via parthenogenesis)and then raised in a culture like that of themiskyra, this would be her story. the values and beliefs she holds so near to her heart would not be that different. but maybe that's just too sincere and deep for some?
[/QB]
And there you go again, dividing the entire pool of Wonder Woman fans into two camps, "Perez-people" and "dumb-guys". Why do so-many Perez WW fans do that? I don't want to be confrontational (not my nature) but it's irritating beyond belief! I don't like to be insulted.
The Potter-Perez-Wein conception of Wonder Woman, which is Jimenez' major infuence, is not the only one that is "sincere" or "deep", though it may be the self-important (Eric Luke's was in strong contention on that last point, but of course it was a very unearned self-importance.)
I assume you are referring to the pre-Crisis Wonder Woman's infamous Achiles heel, the loss of her powers when her bracelets were bound by a man...well it's not there for the sake of humiliating or lessening Diana. You've got to look between the lines on these early stories, see levels beyond what was aimed at the young or casual reader. Think of how ironic it is! Think also that perhaps it was a plausible limit comming from Aphrodite, remembering that the Greek gods were very tough when it came to conditions for their gifts. When she warned the Amazons not to submit ever again to male domination, she meant it! She would make no exception either when it came to carrying out the punnishment. And anyway when it happenned to Diana, the result was almost always an oppurtunity to show Diana's cleverness in overcomming her condunum, though occassionally it also meant a Mental Radio distress call for Etta and the Holiday Girls. That was good in a way too, a chance for non-superpowered women to prove themselves.
And when you say that Marston never showed us what Amazon culture would be like, you're kidding, right? Marston did that every chance he got! It wasn't the cry-every-other-second kind of exploration, but then that wasn't the way he was portraying them. Very much unlike the super-stagnant Perez model, Marston's Amazons were obsessed with moving their culture forward, and with improving themselves. These Amazons weren't heartless of course--they were as compassionate as anyone could ask for--but they were tough as nails. Who's to say this isn't a realistic and layered characterization?
Marston didn't get behind Diana's skin to see the "woman within"? Now you're really joking. Just because this Diana didn't break down into tears everytime someone lied to her doesn't mean we didn't get to see inside her. There was a very shrewd and understated exploration of her character going on all the time.
"Kingdom Come" is not at all an appealing version of Wonder Woman for my tastes. But I suspect it is a realistic (but sad) consequence of the characterization of the early post-Crisis WW, if she had not moved on and grown up in the Loebs run. Someone who wants to remain that naive is bound to be bitterly disapointed, and an aparent abandonment by her homeland by her own people might well push her off the edge. But do I want that for Wonder Woman permanently? No way. That's an extreme. Moxie is one thing. Militarism is another.
I never really got into the JLA in the Morrison run, but IIRC he almost never used Wonder Woman, and when he did it was usually an insignificant expository line or two, "here comes Superman" or something. Mark Waid sometimes did allright by her though, despite "Kingdom Come". I particularly liked her forthrightness in voting to kick Batman out of the JLA. Her reasons were spot-on, showing concern for what was best for the group, in stark contrast to The Flash and Green Lantern who seemed to vote on blind loyalty. But that "Queen of Fables" thing was a mess! I do think there were the seeds of a good Wonder Woman there.
As for the animated version..IIIII...guess she's allriiiiiiiiight. A little too earnest for my tastes, but maybe.
quote:Originally posted by kassandra: mr. whatever your name is, i asked you politely to maintain a certain distance and yet you persist in assuming an almost vulgar familiarity with me, which you shall not enjoy in this life or any other. i see what your doing, and from now on i'll do what i do with your posts on the ww mb: ignore them. you really ought to have spoken to your friend "sarah." perhaps she could have explained my appeal for civility to you in terms at your level of understanding. bottom line: your kill-filed.
happy christmas!
-kassandra
Ohhhhhh.I'm so sad....Kassie is going to ignore me.....God,WHY?????????
i'm really sorry if my remarks came across as insulting. i think i let quite a bit of frustration out with that post, but it was certainly never meant as an insult. i'll leave behaviour such as that to the more pedestrian among us.
your reply is most sincere, and deserves a better response than i can give tonight. i'll try to work on it in the next few days. again, i'm sorry if anything i said insulted you.
take care,
-kassandra
quote:Originally posted by MisterK: <snip!> And there you go again, dividing the entire pool of Wonder Woman fans into two camps, "Perez-people" and "dumb-guys". Why do so-many Perez WW fans do that? I don't want to be confrontational (not my nature) but it's irritating beyond belief! I don't like to be insulted.
i'm really sorry if my remarks came across as insulting. i think i let quite a bit of frustration out with that post, but it was certainly never meant as an insult. i'll leave behaviour such as that to the more pedestrian among us.
your reply is most sincere, and deserves a better response than i can give tonight. i'll try to work on it in the next few days. again, i'm sorry if anything i said insulted you.
take care,
-kassandra
KASSIE!!!! ,you need to get laid...!!!!! "PEDESTRIAN....PLEASE DON'T USE THE WORD BITCH....HOW VULGAR..."
Jeez,u need to get a life and kill that bug up your ass.... Now I understand why you enjoy the pompous,pretentious and aloof princess that Phil "writes"...You can RELATE!!!! Let me go back to the real people,people who have their feet on the ground and fart if they feel like. People who don't think is uncouth to have a personality and not be a zombie of propriety. See ya,babe!
Okay Lane...I'm finally chiming in with my input. No remarks...I've been tired (and sick). And the same old, boring, repeated drivel about the book over at the DCMBs is really starting to annoy me.
Do you like Mark Waids Kingdom Come Wonder Woman? The only thing I didn't like about his KC WW, was the "rush to fight" trait. His Diana gets pissed, and slams her fist down on a table, breaking it. Yeah, she can do that kind of thing...but should she let her emotions get that much a handle on her? No, I don't think so. And then later, when she's fighting Bruce in the air, she (and Bruce) are so absorbed that they don't see what's coming straight at them. That's not the Diana I picture when I think of Diana/Wonder Woman.
Aside from that overly violent trait, I loved Waid's version of Diana. If something needed to be done, she made it happen and she did it.
Do you like Grant Morrison's JLA Wonder Woman? No. He either ignored her, or made a fool out of her. There was one issue...where she was seen going through a building, it might've been three buildings actually, and she had a concusion and was basically dazed and out of it for most of the story after that. That kind of treatment ticks me off. And Morrison said himself that the didn't know what to do with her or really how to write her. If that was the case, he should've asked someone who did. I think he just got too big for his blad head and didn't want to actually prove to others that he couldn't write one of the core 7.
Do you like Bruce Timm's animated JL Wonder Woman? Yes, I do. She's a young woman (early 20's) and has a lot of the characteristics of a woman in her early adult years. She's also slightly cocky but able to come through in a jam and doesn't worry about herself when it comes to helping others. For a "new hero" (in this continuity) she's great.
Who is the best scribe for the super lady? Who does her the most justice? I don't know enough writers to say who I think might be the best for her. But I'm still waiting for Greg Rucka to come on board and do his thing. And I'm becoming extremely impatient for his "The Hikketeia" HC graphic novel to come out. I've got a lot of hope for that one.
As for doing her justice...the only story line I've really liked (for being a true, to me, Wonder Woman story) in this current run, was the space arc (somewhere in the 60's, before she came back 'round #71/#72).
quote:Originally posted by MisterK: "Kingdom Come" is not at all an appealing version of Wonder Woman for my tastes. But I suspect it is a realistic (but sad) consequence of the characterization of the early post-Crisis WW, if she had not moved on and grown up in the Loebs run. Someone who wants to remain that naive is bound to be bitterly disapointed, and an aparent abandonment by her homeland by her own people might well push her off the edge. But do I want that for Wonder Woman permanently? No way. That's an extreme. Moxie is one thing. Militarism is another.
ok, not your lady. thats cool... but it appears that you did enjoy the story, for the entertainment value, at least. understanding that it wasn't THE wonder woman, but also understanding that, in those situations, it could have been .... uh... be. ... or something. (stupid future past perfect progressive!!)
quote:I never really got into the JLA in the Morrison run
this is prolly my most indepth experience with wondie. and, i assume, thats true for most comic book fans, whose only real exposure to characters like wonder woman, martian manhunter, kyle, flash, even aquaman was thru morrison's explosively popular JLA.
so, from my perspective, not really having all the backstory, so to speak, on wondie... i really liked morrison's take. in fact, i re-read the TPB of the first four issues of his run last night, and... ...DAMN i miss that guy!
granted, ww was in no way the starring figure of that series, at least, but... morrison's jla was, quite simply, cool. i think he did an excellent job of characterizing each of the big 7.
i suggest it! (i think his whole run is available in several tpbs)
quote:As for the animated version..IIIII...guess she's allriiiiiiiiight. A little too earnest for my tastes, but maybe.
good enuf!
quote:Originally posted by funkherelikeitornot: KASSIE!!!! you need to get laid...!!!!!
dont we all?
...dont we all...
quote:Originally posted by Bianca: The only thing I didn't like about his KC WW, was the "rush to fight" trait. His Diana gets pissed, and slams her fist down on a table, breaking it. Yeah, she can do that kind of thing...but should she let her emotions get that much a handle on her? No, I don't think so.
well, admitedly, thats a "different" diana. thats a war-torn, scary-world diana. and, i think, based on the little i know, a pretty good prediction of a wonder woman, who had developed in that particular world. (like those police sketches of missing children, when they "age them" by 10 or 20 years... mebbe not perfect, but pretty good based on what little is known)
quote:Originally posted by Bianca: Do you like Grant Morrison's JLA Wonder Woman?No. He either ignored her, or made a fool out of her. There was one issue...where she was seen going through a building, it might've been three buildings actually, and she had a concusion and was basically dazed and out of it for most of the story after that. That kind of treatment ticks me off.
hmm...
have you (any one?) read the jla/wildcats cross over? its morrison written. ... pretty cool wondie there. she's kick ass, strong, ready to fight, but also'd prefer to talk things out, first, and come to a resolution.
eh?
quote:Do you like Bruce Timm's animated JL Wonder Woman?Yes, I do. She's a young woman (early 20's) and has a lot of the characteristics of a woman in her early adult years. She's also slightly cocky but able to come through in a jam and doesn't worry about herself when it comes to helping others. For a "new hero" (in this continuity) she's great.
hmm... her youth might be the only thing that bugs me. ... not that it bugs me, its actually pretty cool and handled very well.
but... i dunno, i like thinking that 'the big three' are the 'classic three.' that clark, bruce, and diana have been around and know each other... n'stuff. like the epilogue that appears in the kingdom come tpb, where the three meet at the super-hero theme resteraunt.
i'm really sorry if my remarks came across as insulting. i think i let quite a bit of frustration out with that post, but it was certainly never meant as an insult. i'll leave behaviour such as that to the more pedestrian among us.
your reply is most sincere, and deserves a better response than i can give tonight. i'll try to work on it in the next few days. again, i'm sorry if anything i said insulted you.
take care,
-kassandra
Allright. Don't sweat it. I might have overreacted too. But I really do believe there's a lot more to Marston's Wonder Woman, and some other pre-Crisis incarnations, than most seem to give credit for.
Did you get to see that brief moment in DC vs Marvel where Wondie picked up Thor's Hammer? I noticed your affinity to the vikings over on the mb and wondered what you thought about that?
quote:Originally posted by KrazyXXXDJ: Viking Woman -
Did you get to see that brief moment in DC vs Marvel where Wondie picked up Thor's Hammer? I noticed your affinity to the vikings over on the mb and wondered what you thought about that?
I loved it and the costum was interesting. Too bad they did not do much with it. I had some high hopes. Oh well...
quote:Originally posted by Polux_Dioscuros: That's an excellent question I would love to read the answer... and I just hate that I didn't came up with that!
Hey Polux! How are you?
Boy , my scandinvian blood has really made an impression!
Me too VW! It was a very interesting concept they passed up on. I wonder if they had planned to keep her that way during the battle if the odds went in her favor? She was like that for maybe 2 pages....Not sure if there was a point, or just to tease us? Oh well. Maybe next time.
Boy , my scandinvian blood has really made an impression!
BTW You still got that Rose?
-Astirid-
I'm in love with you just as that day, my Norse Goddess!
And that rose is portrayed as a good prize that my grandchildren will see... now try to imagine their faces when they realize that it was a Valkyrie who gave it to me!
I'm in love with you just as that day, my Norse Goddess!
And that rose is portrayed as a good prize that my grandchildren will see... now try to imagine their faces when they realize that it was a Valkyrie who gave it to me!
And may the goddess Figga bless you with happiness and many wonderful gradchildren! If they are a sweet as you, love, then this world will be a much better place in the future.
Tja Astirid! Hur star det till? Jag ar "Typhoid Dave".
Seems like its WWMB Old Home Week here. How did you guys get here?
I am a big WW fan, but haven't read the title regularly since Perez. Somewhere along the way I picked upa a degree in Ancient Greek history, and WW is about as close as you can get (setting aside Miller's excellent 300) to my long lost preferred academia.
As a result, I'm very biased in favour of a more "realistic" approach to Wonder Woman. I wasn't brought up on the WW traditions of the invisible plane, the kangas, and the fawning over Steve Trevor. I grew to like the character when she was stopping Ares from initiating a nuclear holocaust: the fact that she is wearing a bathing suit instead of armour is because she didn't want to antagonise the God of War. Strategy and tactics, and it won the day against overwhelming odds.
I liked the Waid KC version of WW very much: it focussed on what most people perceive as an inherent split between diplomat and warrior: yet those people who have studied foreign affairs know that Carl Clausewitz, a Prussian general and protypical military academic, saw war as a natural continuation of diplomacy (he actually said it is "a true political instrument; a continuation of policy by other means.") And this is generally accepted as correct.
Wonder Woman is both diplomat and warrior, a bringer of peace and a bringer of war, and no one should be uncomfortable with her wearing both of those hats because they are, to awkwardly extend the analogy, the same hat.
In KC, we see an affirmative WW take command, undercutting Superman's idealism with a call to arms and a decisive plan. I see nothing wrong with this at all. Batman was always the loner until Dark Knight Returns made him a general, but in truth the general in DC's continuity should always have been WW.
I haven't bought any of the Jiminez WW issues, and I'm in no position to be critical of a work I haven't read. I see nothing wrong with an empathic WW, someone who feels as well as acts. So long as she also acts.
And to be frank, that's what people buy comics for. (My guiding star in respect of what comics are about for the past few months has been Warren Ellis' Old Bastards Manifesto at www.warrenellis.com) They want a voluptuous brunette beating the crap out of bad guys - or even better, bad girls. They don't want mealy-mouthed sentimentality.
Wonder Woman is a little different from the typical female character title. Look at Witchblade or Fathom - WW is as T&A as those titles (and doesn't sell as well). Instead, WW has a strong base of female readers, and also gay readers, both of which is a bit odd for comics, I'd guess. They want her to be the Spirit of Truth, and there is nothing wrong with that at all. But that virtue doesn't stand out like the patriotism and American values of Superman, or the violence and grim depression of Batman.
We all want to see most what we like, in WW. (I'm writing WW fanfic, and it has WW involved in politics, because that's what interests me.) My hope is that DC can find something keeps everyone happy. I'd hazard a guess and say the closest thing I've seen to that is A League of One.
i like the way you think. i'd love to respond to your post (and andrew's- haven't forgotten) but i'm getting ready to rush off to the office for my turn running the bloody place. pity your so far away. would have loved meeting up with you at mojo's (best coffee house in austin, texas) over tea for some great discussion. you nailed it: diana as general. as the goddess, she is all things.
I'd have to say that George Perez's version of WW is the definitive one...for me, anyways. Not just because he rebooted her, but because his Greek gods were interesting, and very realistic. Diana being amazed at the outside world, seeing her first child (Vanessa), even not being able to speak English for the first 5 issues was very attractive in terms of realism.
And while Phil's Diana certainly isn't George's, I do appreciate the likeness, and the effort to tie in all aspects of each Wonder Woman generation into something more of a fan base can enjoy.
i like the way you think. i'd love to respond to your post (and andrew's- haven't forgotten) but i'm getting ready to rush off to the office for my turn running the bloody place. pity your so far away. would have loved meeting up with you at mojo's (best coffee house in austin, texas) over tea for some great discussion. you nailed it: diana as general. as the goddess, she is all things.
take care,
-kassandra
Kassandra - do you know me? I have two good friends from Austin, and was supposed to go to a wedding there three weeks ago but couldn't make it... your mention of the place freaked me out a bit!
quote:Originally posted by KrazyXXXDJ: Great post Dave!
I'd have to say that George Perez's version of WW is the definitive one...for me, anyways. Not just because he rebooted her, but because his Greek gods were interesting, and very realistic. Diana being amazed at the outside world, seeing her first child (Vanessa), even not being able to speak English for the first 5 issues was very attractive in terms of realism.
And while Phil's Diana certainly isn't George's, I do appreciate the likeness, and the effort to tie in all aspects of each Wonder Woman generation into something more of a fan base can enjoy.
Yeah, I was really impressed with the failure to understand English in the first few issues, and the fact that she could pick it up by listening to it just showed she was an extraordinary person.
The emphasis upon the Greek gods is something which was clever, too. As a kid, I loved Greek mythology, and so did most of my friends, and I think Perez appreciated the popular appeal that the old myths have amongst kids and teenagers (and adults, like me!). If WW wants a wider fan base, it should be more Greek mythology orientated. Kids would read it the same way they read Thor. Stick Diana in some Greek armour, explain what the armour is all about, have her join the quest for the Golden Fleece, join Orpheus in his descent into the underword, befriend Narcissus, Leda, and Orion the Hunter.
no, not as of yet, dave. i'm sure you'd remember me. once upon a time, long before i fell under the spell of the pacific northwest, austin was my secondary home. i often took the train up and spent the day meandering along guadalupe, always ending up at mojo's where i enjoyed a glass of red hibiscus iced tea while writing in my journal. quite often i photographed the graffiti (sp?) artists painting the wall out back. how i miss the old town.
-kassandra
quote:Originally posted by Dave:
Kassandra - do you know me? I have two good friends from Austin, and was supposed to go to a wedding there three weeks ago but couldn't make it... your mention of the place freaked me out a bit!
Ah, well, I was invited to a wedding at the Austin Women's Lodge, I think that was the name, and the invitation included a CD of Western music, which I hate to admit wasn't all that bad. And they sent me a map, and did you know LBJ's wife has a butterfly farm there? Which is funny because her name was Ladybug or something. I didn't even know LBJ was a Texan.
I met my two friends in Austin while travelling in Spain in 1999 (they helped me out with a menu in a restaurant) and we've kept in touch ever since.
Anyway, this was supposed to be about WW. I have liked the idea of a new costume - the historian in me likes hoplite armour (as opposed to the screamin chicken armour) but I doubt it would go down very well in certain quarters. The last time WW had a costume change was the switch from the eagle on her chest ot the two Ws, and before that the white jump suit from the 70s. So, there is a bit of a patchy history of costume changes. Reason why: something different to bump sales. Any thoughts?
Costume change wouldn't be bad if it's done correctly...and since Lina isn't here I'll say STRAPS!!!!
I'm all for the armour like the kind she wore in the Battle of the Gods arc back in the early issues of this run. I really enjoyed that particular look. I wouldn't mind that look for "everyday" patroling or what ever you want to call what she does. I just don't want it to "fly up" when she's landing feet first.
I also like the red "senatorial" robe she wears for speaking to the president or the U.N. or what-have-you.
And may the goddess Figga bless you with happiness and many wonderful gradchildren! If they are a sweet as you, love, then this world will be a much better place in the future.
great likeness of the drag queen impersonating diana at the melbourne gay thing last year. wow, looks exactly like him! renny would probably get a good chuckle.
hoplite sounds like it could be interesting, but i'd miss the traditional armour. the variations on diana's 'costume' have usually been rather enjoyable. you may not believe this, but i actually liked the loincloth look from kingdom come. unfortunately, ross seems to be the only one to get it right.
i rather liked the chitons that perez had her don from time to time, and it's nice to see phil use them again. what did you think of her armour in queen of fables? i simply loved it. it's next on my list for when i have time to do another custom barbie diana.
-kassandra
quote:Originally posted by Dave: Anyway, this was supposed to be about WW. I have liked the idea of a new costume - the historian in me likes hoplite armour (as opposed to the screamin chicken armour) but I doubt it would go down very well in certain quarters. The last time WW had a costume change was the switch from the eagle on her chest ot the two Ws, and before that the white jump suit from the 70s. So, there is a bit of a patchy history of costume changes. Reason why: something different to bump sales. Any thoughts?
i'd just like to 
