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So, does anyone see any merit to this?
Clark and Lex as friends?
A new Krypton?
Didn't Superman just play 'What's My Origin?' for two years with Loeb? Why does he need to play again just because Waid has an ego?
Opinions?
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I'm walking in in the middle of Act II;can you fill me in on some of the details?
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Lex and Clark were FUCKING friends in Smallville?
Horse Shit!
On that note I'm going to get it anyways... at least the first few issues.
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Still waitin’ for that Magic man, huh MOA? ![[gulp!]](gulp.gif) I have no problem with them tweaking the origin a bit. Besides, what does it really change? We'll still get Superman 193, 194 & 195 and it will still be the same old Moderateman we've been stuck with from issue #1 through 192. Christ, we had 60 years of continuity COMPLETELY re-written in 6 fucking issues in 1986. Birthright is nothing like that. I can't believe how fearful and strident you are about keeping virtually everything AS-IS... Things change.
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilgore Trout:
Still waitin’ for that Magic man, huh MOA?
I have no problem with them tweaking the origin a bit. Besides, what does it really change?
We'll still get Superman 193, 194 & 195 and it will still be the same old Moderateman we've been stuck with from issue #1 through 192.
Christ, we had 60 years of continuity COMPLETELY re-written in 6 fucking issues in 1986. Birthright is nothing like that. I can't believe how fearful and strident you are about keeping virtually everything AS-IS...
Things change.
But why do they have to change for the worse? What will making Clark and Lex friends as children do for the stories set in the now?
'Gee Clark, remember when we were kids and used to be friends?'
'Yes Lex...'
Then what?
And playing damn musical chairs with the origin AGAIN is retarded :) It's hack work...
Didn't you have enough of the infighting between fans at the old DC boards during Loeb's Return to Krypton? I did, it was tiresome and mindless...
[Jokingly] And it's MOTA, dammit, with a T!! ![[nyah hah]](images/icons/tongue.gif) [/Jokingly]
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I think we should wait a read it before we start worrying about what MIGHT be tweaked or outright altered. Lex and Clark were acquainted for 40 years BEFORE Byrne... Its not such a giant leap. Opposites attract each other. Like you and me... ![[izzat so?]](graemlins/zatso.gif)
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So we've come to a point when it's better to rehash the past than come up with new ideas?
If something was good 40 years ago it has to be good again?
Hey, 40 years ago Flash Thompson used to pick on Peter over in Spider-Man, maybe they should bring that back. Not that it will help move the characters forward in any way, but if it happened back then it should happen again today :)
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
So we've come to a point when it's better to rehash the past than come up with new ideas?
If something was good 40 years ago it has to be good again?
Hey, 40 years ago Flash Thompson used to pick on Peter over in Spider-Man, maybe they should bring that back. Not that it will help move the characters forward in any way, but if it happened back then it should happen again today :)
MOA, please think about this:
With rare exception Superman is currently dealing with THE VERY same characters that he dealt with in his previous incarnations.
Or did you think John Byrne invented Lois Lane, Perry White, Jimmy Olsen and the Daily Planet? How about Lex Luthor, The Toyman, and any dozens of other bits directly imported from various ages?
They are somewhat updated or tweaked or in the case of Jimmy Olsen, lifted directly with no discernable changes.
The whole John Byrne reboot was, as you put it: A “rehash”… of previous concepts.
So I have NO Idea where you’re going with this.
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I believe it's just his way of leading up to asking you out.
Besides that,I trust Waid pretty much,so I'll check this series out & see if I like it.
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This is just DC making Smallville continuity for the title, that's all.
"It works on TV. It's gotta work in the comics!"
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilgore Trout:
With rare exception Superman is currently dealing with THE VERY same characters that he dealt with in his previous incarnations.
Or did you think John Byrne invented Lois Lane, Perry White, Jimmy Olsen and the Daily Planet? How about Lex Luthor, The Toyman, and any dozens of other bits directly imported from various ages?
No, I don't think he created them. Don't make this a personal fight, ok? There's no need to insult me like that...
It's one thing to use the same characters, it's another to reshash the same situations.
Lex and Clark knowing each other doesn't add anything to the current version of the character, it detracts from it.
quote:
Originally posted by Kilgore Trout:
They are somewhat updated or tweaked or in the case of Jimmy Olsen, lifted directly with no discernable changes.
Only since Loeb. Before that the character was growing up.
quote:
Originally posted by Kilgore Trout:
The whole John Byrne reboot was, as you put it: A “rehash”… of previous concepts.
He used characters, not plots. Clark and Lex being friends as kids is a plot, a reshash of an old idea, not using a character.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
No, I don't think he created them. Don't make this a personal fight, ok? There's no need to insult me like that...
MOA, I was being rhetorical, not personal. Sorry! (no, really!)
quote:
Lex and Clark knowing each other doesn't add anything to the current version of the character, it detracts from it.
Oh for gods sake, HOW?
How could it possibly detract? What does it detract from? Just what GREAT part of the mythos is lost by Clark and Lex knowing each other in their childhoods?
quote:
Only since Loeb. Before that the character was growing up.
Jimmy Olsen was a cardboard putz in the Silver-Age and he’s no different now. We can go WAY back before Loeb and find TON’S of examples.
Why do you blame Loeb for everything that’s wrong with Superman? He wasn’t the only creator rowing the Superman boat. He’s responsible for a hair over ¼ of the stories during his time here.
quote:
He used characters, not plots. Clark and Lex being friends as kids is a plot, a reshash of an old idea, not using a character.
Come on MOA. You can find the same basic plots that Byrne (or anyone for that matter) used any where in these books. I mean we have 60 of pre-Byrne Superman history here.
ORIGINAL story ideas are few and far between. You should stop with the massive overstatements.
And hey MOA, this is NOT a PERSONAL attack! I like you! This is just a series of emphatic disagreements on structure ![[wink]](images/icons/wink.gif)
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilgore Trout:
MOA, I was being rhetorical, not personal. Sorry! (no, really!)
Oks :)
quote:
Oh for gods sake, HOW?
How could it possibly detract? What does it detract from? Just what GREAT part of the mythos is lost by Clark and Lex knowing each other in their childhoods?
What's so great about them having known each other? What does it bring to the story?
If you think that Clark and Lex knowing each other in school is good then why not Bruce and the Joker?
Why stop there? Let's just have a comic where all the heroes and their enemies went to school together! Bruce and Joker, Superman and Lex, Wonder Woman and Cheetah. It be a hoot! A series aimed at those that see the word comic an think 'simplistic, innocent, good vs evil, no conflict, no blood, no gore, 1950's sensibilities and innocence, no charactetization, no growth.'
It might sell TWO copies!! :)
quote:
Jimmy Olsen was a cardboard putz in the Silver-Age and he’s no different now. We can go WAY back before Loeb and find TON’S of examples.
Why do you blame Loeb for everything that’s wrong with Superman? He wasn’t the only creator rowing the Superman boat. He’s responsible for a hair over ¼ of the stories during his time here.
You said it, NOW. Before Loeb Jimmy was growing up, he stopped when Loeb took over.
Loeb is responsible for the state of the books TODAY, a state that's the lowest the books have been in decades in every shape and form.
quote:
Come on MOA. You can find the same basic plots that Byrne (or anyone for that matter) used any where in these books. I mean we have 60 of pre-Byrne Superman history here.
ORIGINAL story ideas are few and far between. You should stop with the massive overstatements.
And hey MOA, this is NOT a PERSONAL attack! I like you! This is just a series of emphatic disagreements on structure
Byrne didn't use that many old plots in his work, he did a ton of new stuff.
It was writers like Ordway that brought back Elastic Lad and the like :)
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I'd feel a lot better about Birthright if it was the total reboot Superman desperately needs at this point. A new Krypton? Bring it on! The Byrne version has always sucked (the animated series nailed Krypton cold). Lex and Clark as friends growing up? Doesn't matter to me one way or the other. Either version's effective. A clean slate not sullied by stupid, convoluted twists (extradimensional protoplasmic shapeshifters-turned-angels, Russian cosmonaut Zods, expendable assembly-line Bizarros, a Brainiac that makes no sense whatsoever, etc.)? Just what the doctor ordered. A tough, bad-ass Superman? It's about [expletive] time.
Unfortunately, this isn't a reboot. It's just a glorified Elseworlds tale, because DC's too chicken to instate it as a reboot or even as an "Ultimate Superman" of sorts. It's just an Elseworlds tale, because DC would rather play it safe and cater to the same tiny minority that's hijacked the books for almost a decade and thinks Superman begins with Byrne and ends with Jurgens. As such, I'm not the slightest bit excited about it, and it's very questionable that I'll pick it up. Yeah, Mark Waid will finally get to write Superman, but the way DC's setting this book up, it's not going to have any real impact on the character. And as bad as things are now, impact is what's needed.
I'm also not real keen on the Loeb/McGuinness World's Finest book (nice promo art, though), but that's another story.
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By this point, I'm just making my own continuity.
If I like it, It's in continuity! If it's crap, fuck it!
If the companies can't decide what's what, I'll have to do it myself!
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quote:
Originally posted by thedoctor:
This is just DC making Smallville continuity for the title, that's all.
"It works on TV. It's gotta work in the comics!"
I predicted this would happen years ago, when Metropolis and Krypton got turned into the Animated Metropolis and Animated Krypton. I hope my prediction of Pete Ross turning black (or remembering he was black when he was a teenager) doesn't come true.
Sure, all this new elements (Lex and Clark, new Krypton) are a lot like the original elements, but that's just an excuse, what counts is the motivation behind the introduction (or re-introduction) of these elements, and that motivation is making the Comic Superman more like the TV Superman, to get the people who watch the show to buy the comic.
Anyway... I think it's great if they decide to revamp Superman. If it rocks, cool, if it sucks, fuck it, I just won't buy it (I'll buy old issues instead).
I love the Byrne-Wolfman-Ordway-Stern-Jurgens-Perez-Simonson-Kesel-Micheline-Immonen Superman, but it's over, it ended in 1999, and it's not coming back. At least not until the people influenced by this Superman start writing the book and make tributes, but I'd say that's at least a decade away.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:I love the Byrne-Wolfman-Ordway-Stern-Jurgens-Perez-Simonson-Kesel-Micheline-Immonen Superman, but it's over, it ended in 1999, and it's not coming back. At least not until the tributes by the people influenced by this Superman start writing the book, but I'd say that's at least a decade away. [/QB]
Funny. It was the Jurgens-Kesel-Michelinie-Simonson-Immonen team that turned me away from the books in the mid-'90s. And now the Loeb-Kelly-Casey-Seagle team is doing the exact same thing. The more things change, the more they stay the same.... ![[worst. icon. ever.]](graemlins/comicguy-icon00.gif)
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
Sure, all this new elements (Lex and Clark, new Krypton) are a lot like the original elements, but that's just an excuse, what counts is the motivation behind the introduction (or re-introduction) of these elements, and that motivation is making the Comic Superman more like the TV Superman, to get the people who watch the show to buy the comic.
By that logic 14 years ago DC should have said that Joker killed the Waynes, made Selina a secretary instead of a hooker and the Penguin an outcast that lives in the sewers, no?
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The latest part of the Jurgens era drove me away too, actually. Only recently I've been enjoying it, and I gotta admit it's only by association with the stuff that goes before. I don't think I'd like those stories if they were from another title, I think, but since I do, what am I gonna do about it? Pretend I don't like it?
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I still hold by my theory that Superman would be saved if only they just brought back Steve Lombard.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
By that logic 14 years ago DC should have said that Joker killed the Waynes, made Selina a secretary instead of a hooker and the Penguin an outcast that lives in the sewers, no?
There isn't a rule that says you have to boost sales by linking the comics to the series or movies. The rule is simply boosting sales. The method used to do that can vary.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
By that logic 14 years ago DC should have said that Joker killed the Waynes, made Selina a secretary instead of a hooker and the Penguin an outcast that lives in the sewers, no?
There isn't a rule that says you have to boost sales by linking the comics to the series or movies. The rule is simply boosting sales. The method used to do that can vary.
Also, Bat-titles don't need the movie tie-in to support themselves. Superman evidentally needs the boost.
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
I still hold by my theory that Superman would be saved if only they just brought back Steve Lombard.
They did. They made him a fat, balding TV anchor (see Superman #50).
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The more I observe everything going on with Birthright, the more I'm inclined to think Waid and DC are playing fast and loose with the truth about what the project really is and what it will entail. How can Waid honestly say that Birthright just kinda fills in the blanks or somehow augments what Byrne laid out, when the publicity artwork CLEARLY shows that this story FLATLY changes what Byrne did in the reboot? How about this page: http://www.comicon.com/pulse/images/supermanbirthright_1_11.jpgLooks like they're back to the traditional scene of Jor-El and Lara loading Kal-El into the rocketship, rather than Byrne's "genetic matrix" that would allow Kal-El, essentially, to be "born" on Earth. This isn't a minor cosmetic change...this is a change to one of Byrne's central tenets: That Superman belongs to Earth (ala the speech at the end of the final issue of the Man of Steel mini-series that launched Byrne's vision for the character). True, shadows and echoes of Byrne's Krypton design remain, but Jor-El and Lara are now clearly amalgamations of pre- and post-reboot continuities (similar to how they handled the characters in the Animated Series pilot episode): http://www.comicon.com/pulse/images/supermanbirthright_1_07.jpgNote: For a second there, I thought the last panel on the linked page above was KRYPTO wrapped in a blanket, since the legs looked kinda dog-like. I realized it was probably baby Kal with some kinda little sleeper outfit on with the droopy footies you might see actual babies wear. Plus, the hand-arm thing sticking out of the blanket near the face looks a bit like a dog's paw, rather than a baby's hand. It's most likely the baby Lara was holding in panels one and two (since she's not holding it in the last panel), but.....weird. And....lo and behold.....the S-symbol FAMILY CREST (panels 2 and 5)! One of the best contributions of the Supeman movie to the mythos that makes sense on so many levels. Apparently Mark Waid agreed! Very, very cool. I really, really WANT to like this series, and stuff like this makes it a bit easier. I'm still a hard-sell on the super-social worker stuff from the Wizard preview, but I like what Waid appears to be doing with the Krypton side of the equation.
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
By that logic 14 years ago DC should have said that Joker killed the Waynes, made Selina a secretary instead of a hooker and the Penguin an outcast that lives in the sewers, no?
There isn't a rule that says you have to boost sales by linking the comics to the series or movies. The rule is simply boosting sales. The method used to do that can vary.
Also, Bat-titles don't need the movie tie-in to support themselves. Superman evidentally needs the boost.
The last thing Superman needs is to get a "boost" from a movie where Krypton's destruction is undone (or at the very least, Krypton just breaks up into "remnants" that have to be liberated), Luthor's Kryptonian in some way or another, Jimmy Olsen's gay, and Superman's a Neo Xerox complete with "I have to be talked out of dying" scene. That kind of thing wouldn't be a boost, it'd be the death knell of the character.
quote:
I really, really WANT to like this series, and stuff like this makes it a bit easier. I'm still a hard-sell on the super-social worker stuff from the Wizard preview, but I like what Waid appears to be doing with the Krypton side of the equation.
I like the approach he appears to be taking with Krypton myself (it looks to be a total dismantling of Byrne's godawful dystopia, which is long overdue), and I've been keen on having the S-shield as Jor-El's family crest ever since I was a little kid. But I can't get excited about this series at all. It just looks to be a glitzed-up Elseworlds, and as such I find it a pointless endeavor.
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I really don't give a shit about how it fits into continuity.
All I care about is that it's a good story.
If the Golden Age Kryptonian elements and the Silver Age Superboy-Lex Luthor elements are creeping back into the Superman mythos, I think that's a good thing. The Superman comics of today should not be bound by what John Byrne did almost 20 years ago -- there's a whole 50 years of history that came before Byrne's Superman reboot, and I'm glad to see certain wonderful elements making their way back into the Superman mythos once more.
P.S.: The heartless, cold Krypton of Byrne should be gotten rid of forever... give us the scientific wonderland whose destruction would actually cause us to be sad, thinking of what wonders have been lost to the universe forever -- not the Byrne Krypton which causes us to think upon its destruction, "Good riddance to bad rubbish."
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quote:
Originally posted by TheTimeTrust:
If the Golden Age Kryptonian elements and the Silver Age Superboy-Lex Luthor elements are creeping back into the Superman mythos, I think that's a good thing. The Superman comics of today should not be bound by what John Byrne did almost 20 years ago -- there's a whole 50 years of history that came before Byrne's Superman reboot, and I'm glad to see certain wonderful elements making their way back into the Superman mythos once more.
P.S.: The heartless, cold Krypton of Byrne should be gotten rid of forever... give us the scientific wonderland whose destruction would actually cause us to be sad, thinking of what wonders have been lost to the universe forever -- not the Byrne Krypton which causes us to think upon its destruction, "Good riddance to bad rubbish."
I couldn't have put it any better. Well said! ![[biiiig grin]](images/icons/grin.gif)
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quote:
Originally posted by TheTimeTrust:
I really don't give a shit about how it fits into continuity.
All I care about is that it's a good story.
If the Golden Age Kryptonian elements and the Silver Age Superboy-Lex Luthor elements are creeping back into the Superman mythos, I think that's a good thing. The Superman comics of today should not be bound by what John Byrne did almost 20 years ago -- there's a whole 50 years of history that came before Byrne's Superman reboot, and I'm glad to see certain wonderful elements making their way back into the Superman mythos once more.
P.S.: The heartless, cold Krypton of Byrne should be gotten rid of forever... give us the scientific wonderland whose destruction would actually cause us to be sad, thinking of what wonders have been lost to the universe forever -- not the Byrne Krypton which causes us to think upon its destruction, "Good riddance to bad rubbish."
Did you actually read Byrne's Krypton or are you going by what you saw in three pages in the Man of Steel series?
Byrne's Krypton had a Third Age which was a Utopia which was destroyed when a member of a high ranking house found out that his mother had allowed one of her clones to develop a mind and then she set her off as her son's wife to be.
The started the clone wars that decimated the once Utopic Krypton and ended with Jor-El's distopic era.
Just because the planet wasn't a paraside of people dressed in futuristic outfits out of a Flash Gordon serial it doesn't mean that what Byrne didn't tell a great story.
People are just too stuck on how things ended that they don't bother to actually read the actual story...
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Yeah, I've read "the whole story" (I assume you're referring to the WORLD OF KRYPTON mini-series featuring the terrorist group "Black Zero" and such) and while some of the stuff that was seen in the earlier ages of Krypton was pretty cool, I still don't like what Byrne did to Jor-El and Lara or the era they lived in which is the only era that concerns us since it's the era that Krypton actually died. Byrne's Krypton is still not very likeable or even all that interesting compared to what came before. The pseudo-Krypton of Byrne was just a cross between Asimov's Solaria (from The Naked Sun) and the movie THX-1138 -- it wasn't original and it wasn't Krypton. All it was was bleak, something which was fashionable in the grim 'n' gritty 1980s for some strange reason.
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I also forgot to mention -- Mxy's principle of movies/TV continuity making its way into the comics is quite sound. John Byrne actually stole -- er, uh, I mean... -- "borrowed" a lot of concepts from the SUPERMAN movies, including the cold look of Krypton, the sequences where Lois Lane meets and interviews Superman, and a few others.
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Mxy's view!? ![[you sunnuva...]](images/icons/mad.gif) You Canadian bastard!
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quote:
Originally posted by TheTimeTrust:
I also forgot to mention -- Mxy's principle of movies/TV continuity making its way into the comics is quite sound. John Byrne actually stole -- er, uh, I mean... -- "borrowed" a lot of concepts from the SUPERMAN movies, including the cold look of Krypton, the sequences where Lois Lane meets and interviews Superman, and a few others.
When did Lois Lane drive off a bridge in the movies? And, yes the talking on her patio is like the movie, but having Clark get the scoop was original.
And, while both Kryptons (movie and Bryne) were cold and sterile, the designs were lightyears apart.
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quote:
Originally posted by r3x29yz4a:
And, while both Kryptons (movie and Bryne) were cold and sterile, the designs were lightyears apart.
I'd like to know where people get this idea that the Krypton in Richard Donner's Superman was "cold and sterile." It was nothing of the sort. Yes, the Council of Elders were a bunch of arrogant pricks, but how can you say Krypton was "cold and sterile" when Jor-El and Lara were trying to keep from falling apart when they put Kal-El in the escape pod? Jor-El's voice was cracking when he gave his final speech, and Lara was crying. This is "cold and sterile"? Not even close. Donner's Krypton was still an emotional and caring world, the stuffed-shirt demeanor of the Council of Elders notwithstanding.
The same cannot be said for the atrocity Byrne passed off as Krypton.
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Byrne's antiseptic Krypton was suuposed to be a contrast to the farm boy life in Kansas, no?
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quote:
Originally posted by King Krypton:
I'd like to know where people get this idea that the Krypton in Richard Donner's Superman was "cold and sterile." It was nothing of the sort. .......
It was all white and crystal. The feeling of the planet was cold and sterile. And since we only saw the Council and Jor-el and Lara, we can't assume the Ruling Council was cold while the rest of the planet was nice and emotional. Maybe Jor-el was an exception.
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The same cannot be said for the atrocity Byrne passed off as Krypton.
What's up your ass with Byrne? His Krypton represented a world that had been consumed by war, apathy, and technology, it makes Superman an even better metaphor for justice (preventing Earth from having the same fate).
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quote:
Originally posted by r3x29yz4a:
It was all white and crystal. The feeling of the planet was cold and sterile.
That's architecture, not characterization. You can't point to the design scheme and say, "Hey, that's the way the people are, too!" Especially when we see the El family as a passionate, emotional group. It's ludicrous to assume that the Krypton of the movies was cold and sterile just because it was designed in crystal. It was just a cool visual John Barry came up with, no more.
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And since we only saw the Council and Jor-el and Lara, we can't assume the Ruling Council was cold while the rest of the planet was nice and emotional. Maybe Jor-el was an exception.
Likewise, you can't assume that Krypton WASN'T emotional because of the design scheme and the belligerence of the Council, because the planet wasn't shown in full.
We CAN assume that Krypton was an emotional planet in the films, because (a) Jor-El was always closer in heart and spirit to the everyday folks on the planet pre-1986, (b) the Council of Elders was always a hateful, arrogant bunch of snobs in the pre-1986 comics, and (c) we saw a loving, emotional Argo City in the otherwise lame Supergirl. The implication is pretty clear to me. The Council was distant and arrogant because of their status in society. Jor-El and Lara were more accurate representatives of the general populace.
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What's up your ass with Byrne? His Krypton represented a world that had been consumed by war, apathy, and technology, it makes Superman an even better metaphor for justice (preventing Earth from having the same fate).
"It makes Superman an even better metaphor for justice (preventing Earth from having the same fate)"? Where did you come up with this? Byrne had Superman reject Krypton outright as soon as he found out where he came from, and the comics have frequently had Superman rjecting all the nasty and negative things Krypton's burdened him with. Byrne didn't give us a Krypton that would give Superman more of a reason to protect Earth from its fate, he gave us Krypton that we were supposed to hate as much as Superman did! He even said so in an interview he did in 1986, bragging about how he set out to create a Krypton that deserved to explode and would be anathema to Superman, and how he was determined to make sure nobody would be nostalgic for it ( http://theages.superman.ws/History/end.php ). The whole point of his Krypton was that it was supposed to be a horrible place best left forgotten.
If Byrne REALLY wanted Krypton be to be a motivation for Superman to protect Earth from a similar fate, then he wouldn't have made it such a horrible place. His desire to make Superman's alien heritage something not worth valuing was the one flaw that ruined what could have been an otherwise decent reboot (I also hate the shapeshifting Jell-O Supergirl he dished up, but that's another post). Superman is supposed to be a man living in the gray area between his alien and human heritages, embodying both but being fully at home with neither. Byrne robbed the character of that quality, ignoring the "super" in favor of overplaying the "man." (Pre-Crisis, the reverse mistake was made, with the "super" overpowering the "man.") Krypton is supposed to be a place WORTH missing, not some sterile, antiseptic dystopia nobody cares about.
Byrne didn't understand this, and he screwed up Superman by pursuing this path. If you want me to go into more detail about what's wrong with the current Superman, read this: http://www.otherearths.com/rants/OzRant.htm
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