RKMBs Forums .::Robegories::. Comic Books Marvel, 1978-1987: Great BECAUSE of Shooter? Or in spite of Shooter?

Yeah, I always felt with whoever was inking him at the time (Austin?) that his stuff was always more....solid, than when he tries to ink himself. I might be misremembering that.

Either way, personally I always enjoyed Byrne's take on comics. Especially when he started taking stabs at the corporate nature that began in that era. I'm sure that plays a part in his lack of spotlight these days (that, and he's a pompous ass at times who burned too many bridges)...

Byrne's inks over his own pencils always seemed rough and sketchy(though to hear him or his "Byrne Victims" on his web-site,nobody does it better than Byrne himself). Inks by Austin or Giordano seemed to complement his style much better. Yes,Byrne delivers a pretty good yarn 90% of the time and you can see he loves old-school super-heroic type adventure when you read his stuff. He also feels he can "fix" characters....sometimes yes(Fantastic Four and Namor),sometimes no(Doom Patrol & Spider-Man:Chapter One).His IDW stuff has been pretty good reading and I enjoy his Star Trek work immensely because he loves TOS and that's always been my preference for Trek. I do think that,although he's been off the radar since he doesn't do any work for the Big Two anymore, Marvel is trying to sway him back without coming out and asking directly.Look at all the Byrne TPBs they've released in the last year or so. She-Hulk,Marvel Team-Up,Spider-Man:Chapter One,Alpha Flight and soon X-Men:The Hidden Years(this is the one that upon being cancelled,Byrne swore he would never again work for Marvel as long as Joe Quesada was in charge)amongst so many others. I can't help it,while I think he is a bitter kind of guy and a bit assy,I'm a sucker for his art so I buy just about anything he works on.

RE: Byrne coming back to Marvel. Right or wrong, he's thirty years past his "hot" era. I don't see him making a comeback now any more than, say, Dick Sprang could have made a comeback in the 1980s.

Oh most certainly it wouldn't be a comeback.Back when him and Claremont did their arc on JLA there was a little fanfare but nothing major about the two of them back together since Byrne left X-Men.

I think Marvel would certainly hype it a bit if Byrne came back to draw,say,Uncanny X-Men or FF but that's about it.

P.S.
Sprang did make a slight comeback in the 90's during a 3 issue arc of Detective Comics,where he did covers and interiors on parts of the story......'twas awesome.

My Dick Sprang!

My John Byrned!

My Peter is Gross!

It's like the names of comic book professionals were made entirely for Lothar's enjoyment.

In THE ART OF JOHN BYRNE, Byrne says that he liked Dan Green the best of those who inked him, because it was closer to Byrne's own rougher inking style. But at his absolute peak in the 1977-1981 period, I'd agree that people like Austin, Layton and others added to Byrne's work by giving his pencils a sharper, cleaner look than Byrne himself would.

But in 1981-1982, Byrne proved how well and how cleanly he could ink his own work, on FF 232-242. And after that point forward his work gradually became looser, so that by the early 1990's I no longer cared what Byrne did.

But up till Byrne left Marvel in 1986, he described himself in editorials up to that point as a proud cog in the Marvel machine. And Marvel was glad to have him. But from the point he announced his contract with DC, Byrne said he was editorially harassed at Marvel, that compelled him to leave earlier than he had planned. He wanted to stay on FF through issue 300 regardless of his Superman contract with DC. But left early because of editorial nit-picking he said never existed before he announced his DC contract.

I recall his INCREDIBLE HULK run was also cut short by this pre-emptive departure.

And his unfinished "Last Galactus Story" in EPIC ILLUSTRATED 26-34.

And I always got the impression Byrne felt this editorial nit-picking was orchestrated by Shooter.

Yep. That's why I used his name as my example. Sprang was still talented and the people who knew comics history were impressed, but the average reader was, like, "who"?

Byrne said he's gonna "leave the planet" in the year 2020. It's on Bleeding Cool. People think he's gonna kill himself, but I like to imagine him raising his arms and flying into space to rejoin his race.

The first two are 80's prime Byrne. The latter are "now"...

(clickable)

I love Byrne art. Is the Doom/JLA pic from some story I somehow missed?

superman lost the drug war

SUPERMAN YOU FUCKING IDIOT, PAY ATTENTION TO THE DRUG WAR

I like how, by the 80's, Superman had dealt with all the "crooks, spies, and weirdos" using his "supernatural" powers. Cause, he shits magic. And gift cards to Banana Republic...

Also, ever notice when Byrne had Jerry Ordway inking, it was the only time his characters looked like they had a soul?

He does commissions, I believe...

And RE: the JLA/Doom pic, let's be clear here. If that's actually Superman, the Flash, Wonder Woman, AND Green Lantern lying beaten (and in Barry's case, converting to Christianity), then Batman's ten seconds from instant-death. Fact.

Only people like Rob and John Byrne like Batman.

Pft.

I vaguely remember the 50th birthday special on TV when I was a kid.

batman is responsible for their beatings.

doom just stopped in to prop up wonder woman, ask her what happened.

the flash is trying to warn doom that batman is coming back.

Jim Shooter also started the Marvel Graphic Novel line.
http://www.comics.org/series/2658/covers/


Although I believe Eclipse's SABRE (by Moench/Gulacy) in 1978 was the first actual U.S. graphic novel, followed by some collections from Heavy Metal, before Marvel released Starlin's DEATH OF CAPTAIN MARVEL in late 1981.

I was equally if not more blown away by the second Marvel graphic novel, ELRIC (by Roy Thomas and Craig Russell), in early 1982.

And likewise Starlin's painted DREADSTAR graphic novel later in 1982.

These three set a high benchmark. And there were other great graphic novels from Marvel after, but beyond that they were not as consistently good, and became more hit-and-miss.


Graphic novels were another nice innovation on Shooter's watch, that was contracted with creator ownership on any new characters created in their graphic novel stories.
(At that point many creators were flocking to Pacific and Eclipse to do creator-owned work. And I don't know the precise order, but Shooter may have presented creator rights through EPIC ILLUSTRATED and the Marvel Graphic Novels because he believed in creator rights, or just because he was was struggling to offer competitive royalties.)

It was also on Shooter's watch that the best Marvel/DC crossover was published, the July 1982 X-MEN/TEEN TITANS book by Claremont/Simonson/Austin.


A great finale to an incredible summer of material from Marvel.

including:

Layton's first HERCULES miniseries,
the first WOLVERINE miniseries by Claremont/Miller/Rubinstein,
some great work on DOCTOR STRANGE with Roger Stern, Marshall Rogers and Michael Golden,
a particularly good Fu Manchu storyline in MASTER OF KUNG FU 114-118 by Doug Moench and Gene Day,
a building greatness in Stern/Romita Jr's AMAZING SPIDERMAN run, just before Hobgoblin was introduced in issue 238,
a wonderful Mantlo/Hannigan/Milgrom run on SPECTACULAR SPIDERMAN that had just produced Cloak & Dagger in a few sporadic appearances (but pre-miniseries),
continued perfection in EPIC ILLUSTRATED, having just concluded Starlin's Metamorphosis Odyssey.

And tons of other great stuff.

I'm giving you genuine points for that one, Robert. Now kiss me.

Time magazine claims it was Will Eisner's "A Contract with God." Others claim it was Arnold Drake's It Rhymes with Lust, from waaay back in 1950. Others argue it was Gil Kane's Blackmark

I've heard of all but Arnold Drake's graphic novel.

I think Eisner's A CONTRACT WITH GOD came out in 1978 also, and I have heard it said that it was the first graphic novel. It was Eisner who coined the term "sequential art", and he may have coined the term graphic novel as well.
I honestly never liked either of those terms, that I always felt were the beginnings of terminology that by the 1990's transformed comics from a fun and playfully inventive but under-appreciated art form in the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's and early 80's, into a much more somber, dark, pretentious and much less fun medium by the 1990's.


They also used to call them "European graphic albums", where Moebius, Druillet and the like were producing 9" X 12" graphic albums in the 70's, before others in the U.S. followed and began publishing in that format.

I recall in late 1981, the first of that type in the U.S. I purchased were called "British albums" reprinting Steranko's CAPTAIN AMERICA, and Neal Adams' X-MEN, in 9 X 12" hardcovers.


Regarding the beginnings of Marvel Graphic Novels under Shooter, as I recall, Starlin approached Marvel about doing "Death of Captain Marvel" and doing it as a special graphic novel, and instead of just a one-shot, became an ongoing line of graphic novels.

Another by McGregor/Russell was to be a serialized Killraven story in EPIC ILLUSTRATED, but was instead collected and done as a one-shot graphic novel instead. You can pick up on the serialized original format in the very clear chapter divisions in the KILLRAVEN graphic novel.

Not the way Byrne says it. He hated the way ordway inked his work.

Well, sure. From Byrne's perspective, John Byrne was the best artistis choice for John Byrne's style of art. Personally, I like it. It screams "DC Byrne" to me in a way his Marvel work doesn't. Who was inking his FF run? Himself or Austin? Because, even compared to his X-Men era, FF and Man of Steel remain his absolute solid art runs for my money...

I think Austin and Ordway inked most of his FF run.

Ah. I never remembered Jerry Ordway doing much work for MARVEL. But, then again, I smoke pot.

Does anyone know the true story of why Byrne left SUPERMAN? His runs never seem to end "properly". Except, I guess, his X-Men run. But, he quit West Coast Avengers almost immediately (still don't know why) and for rebooting the most important comic book character ever, he only stayed...what...two years?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Byrne_(comics)

I may be wrong but I think Byrne himself inked most of his FF issues, and then Ordway came in at the end when he couldn't be arsed to finish them. Also, when did Ordway ink him at DC? Ordway was the artist in Adventures of Superman when Byrne was writing it, but I don't think he ever drew an issue.

This is the laziest conversation ever because any one of us could go to comics.org and verify this information.

I was talking about that TIME magazine cover up top. Looks like Ordway inks. If I remember correctly (?) Jerry O did some inks on John B's somewhere in the middle there between Actions, Adventures of, and the annuals and such. I could be wrong.

I was working on this tonight. This is my favorite Johnny B era. When he was fresh starting on Superman. Lot of energy in his work...

Under Shooter, there was a greater sense of fun at Marvel, not just of the writers and artists, but also behind-the-scenes editorials and interviews that gave a feel for the personalities of editorial staff at Marvel, as well as the writers and artists.

Books like KA-ZAR and MOON KNIGHT had behind-the scenes photos of the staff in their offices, along with humorous versions of their conversations in preparing the stories each issue.
Likewise with Al Milgrom and his "Editori-Al" one-pagers in MARVEL FANFARE, WARLOCK SPECIAL EDITION, CAPTAIN MARVEL SPECIAL EDITION and so forth.

Likewise also in Dennis O'Neil's editorials in BIZARRE ADVENTURES and elsewhere.

And in Archie Goodwin's illustrated editorials for Marvel's Epic Comics line.

I think this was the first time I really got a feel of what it was like for writers and artists to get together in an office with an editor and have a plot conference, and work together to fine-tune an issue through various stages of production.
And how fun it could be.

I think the photo-features that went on for years in various direct-market Marvel comics and magazines finally reached their peak with the one-shot MARVEL FUMMETTI BOOK.



One of a number of humorous releases that put a spotlight on Marvel's staff, and the atmosphere behind the scenes at Marvel. And the resultant good times.

I wish this had been printed on glossy paper. Because a lot of these photos, printed on the usual comics newsprint, lost clarity they otherwise might have had.
But fun regardless.

The best of the playful one-shot titles under Shooter was FANTASTIC FOUR ROAST, written by Hembeck, and with art by the creative teams of all the Marvel titles at that time, including:

Miller/Janson DAREDEVIL
Byrne FF
Sienkiewicz MOON KNIGHT
Romita Jr/Layton IRON MAN
Duffy/Gammill/Villamonte POWER MAN/IRON FIST
Jones/Anderson KA-ZAR
Moench/Gene Day MASTER OF KUNG FU

And many others, including several gorgeous pages by Michael Golden.

It's a nice slice of Marvel's entire monthly line at that time, capturing the creative atmosphere at Marvel. I'm sure everyone involved had a lot of fun doing it.

but in that two year period, he wrote and drew two monthly Superman books, then took over writing duties on the third book as well. he did a shitload of Superman stories in that two year period.