RKMBs Forums .::Robegories::. Comic Books RIP Denny O’Neil

https://twitter.com/newsarama/status/1271475293811871744?s=21

RIP. Hands-down the single most influential Batman writer after Bill finger. And for my money the best writer Batman ever had for any sustained period of time

Wow, this is a death I've anticipated for a long time, and yet it's still a shock and a loss.



As I described years ago, I started out early on reading comics with the Harvey titles like CASPER, RICHIE RICH, HOT STUFF, and LITTLE LOTTA from about 1970-1972.
The first DC comic I bought was BATMAN 241, with the cover story "At Dawn Dies Mary MacGuffin" by Dennis O'Neil, with art by Irv Novick and Dick Giordano.
I agree with you 1 billion percent, G-man, that Dennis O'Neil was absolutely the best writer the Batman series ever had. There is a sophistication to O'Neil's Batman, mixed with a nicely developed Sherlock Holmes-like detective element, and a strong sense of moral outrage and social conscience, whether the stories centered on grandiose villains or impoverished minor characters.

O'Neil was the essence of what made me a DC reader rather than a Marvel reader. The stilted overblown pseudo-Shakespearian dialogue that was played to death in Marvel's line of titles was mostly absent on the DC side. Mostly due to the efforts of O'Neil, with him at one time or another taking the helm of virtually all of DC's titles: DETECTIVE, BATMAN, GREEN LANTERN, a few scattered issues of BRAVE AND THE BOLD, WONDER WOMAN, SWORD OF SORCERY, WEIRD WORLDS, BEWARE THE CREEPER (as "Sergius O'Shaugnessy", probably because he was still doing work for Marvel at the time, not fully a DC staffer yet in 1968-1969), Nightmaster with Berni Wrightson in two SHOWCASE issues, writing SUPERMAN from issues 233-243 in that era's version of a "new" Superman, JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA, WORLD'S FINEST, great stories with Michael Golden in BATMAN FAMILY, and many others.

On the Marvel side I admired O'Neil as much as an editor as a writer, as his titles were consistently among the best Marvel published from 1980-1985: during Miller's DAREDEVIL run, the BIZARRE ADVENTURES anthology series, AMAZING SPIDERMAN around the time (207-223) Stern and Romita Jr started their classic run, Moench/Day's MASTER OF KUNG FU 101-120, Moench/Sienkiewicz MOON KNIGHT 1-30, Duffy and Kerry Gammill on POWERMAN/IRON FIST 61-89, SPIDER-WOMAN, and Byrne's ALPHA FLIGHT run.

Then O'Neil went back to DC to edit the Batman line of titles from 1986-2000 or so, starting just before Miller's BATMAN: YEAR ONE storyline with David Mazzuchelli.

The last really great O'Neil-scripted series was his run with Denys Cowan on THE QUESTION from 1987-1991.
And less impressive for me, of the few issues I sampled, AZRAEL. Although O'Neil did a long run on that series, perhaps some great material I missed.

But for me, the material I'll always love O'Neil for are his late 1960's and early 1970's runs on DC titles, particularly on BATMAN and DETECTIVE.
And BEWARE THE CREEPER 1-6 with Ditko. I also loved several follow-up stories O'Neil did with the same character in DETECTIVE 418, a story by Len Wein in DETECTIVE 444-448, and then another by O'Neil in THE JOKER issue 3.

O'Neil's run on BATMAN 224-266 was unbeatable, a series I felt a great loss for when it ended, and there was no successor even near worthy on the Batman titles for many years after.
O'Neil did a more sporadic run of stories in DETECTIVE COMICS throughout the 1970's as well. As best I recall, in issues 395-411, 414, 418, 419, 422, 425, 431, 451, 457 and 481.

Plus as I said, at the end of O'Neil's 1970's tenure, a few great stories in BATMAN FAMILY 15-20 with Michael Golden.
And a one-shot "Batman Spectacular" in DC SPECIAL SERIES 15 with two O'Neil stories, an O'Neil pulp-like text story with Marshall Rogers, and the second a R'as Al Ghul story with Michael Golden.
Plus another O'Neil story in DETECTIVE 481 with Marshall Rogers in 1979. And then O'Neil left for greener pastures at Marvel.


I'm glad I got to meet Dennis O'Neil at the Florida Supercon in Miami in July 2012 (some others there were Neal Adams, Jose Delbo, Carmine Infantino, David Spurlock, Bill Sienkiewicz, Howard Chaykin, Kevin Maguire, Al Vey, Roy Thomas, and a few others, quite a collection of talent for such a small show.)
O'Neil was a bit irritable and maybe not so glad to see me, but I did get to meet him. His wife was much more cheerful and friendly. Perhaps I just got O'Neil on a bad day. But I'm glad I was able to thank him for all the work that I've re-read for almost 50 years now.

For all the accolades, I still feel O'Neil doesn't get enough credit for his contribution to the field.

He’s is probably the most influential comics writer in history after Stan Lee.

Well, I definitely share your love for Dennis O'Neil's work. But I do feel there's quite a few contenders in that category, including Roy Thomas, Len Wein, Marv Wolfman, Doug Moench, Steve Englehart, Steve Gerber, Don McGregor, and Alan Moore.

And also names I have a degree of contempt for, whose work doesn't speak to me, such as Neil Gaiman, Garth Ennis, Warren Ellis, and Grant Morrison.
It could be argued if not for O'Neil, a lot of these other writers would not have followed down the path O'Neil blazed. Or be working in the field at all. I still wonder how much of the writing on Miller's DAREDEVIL run can be credited to O'Neil's guidance, and perhaps uncredited plotting. O"Neil has said in modesty that it was all Miller. I'd love to ask Miller's account of that if I met him at a convention.

I loved his Question series. The rest I don't know much about.

I think O'Neil's greatest contribution was to the Batman line, with issues by both Neal Adams/Giordano, and Irv Novick/Giordano. But of course, the Adams issues are the most acclaimed. In order, they appeared in DETECTIVE COMICS 395, 397, 404, and 410 in 1970-1971. (Also by Adams with writer Frank Robbins, issues 400, 402 and 407, in the first Man-Bat storyline).
You can read the first one linked, and access all the other issues from there.

Then the O'Neil/Adams team moved over to BATMAN with issue 232 (first R'as Al Ghul), 234 (Two-face), 237, 243-245, 251 (the Joker).
Other stories with Adams art in issues 219 (a Mike Friedrich-scripted Christmas backup story), and 255 (a Len Wein-scripted werewolf story).


And one lone story in BRAVE AND THE BOLD 93 in 1971.
With Bob Haney, Adams also did BRAVE & BOLD 79-86 (1968-1969), Adams' first work on Batman.


O'Neil and Adams also got media coverage nationwide for their stories in GREEN LANTERN 76-87, and 89 (1970-1972), tackling social issues like black poverty, slumlords, pollution, overpopulation, feminism, Nixon and Agnew, drug addiction, racism, and even an allegorical modern Jesus-crucifixion in issue 89.

And after the series was cancelled for low sales, it continued as a 10-page backup in FLASH 217-219


The GREEN LANTERN series was revived in 1976, with O'Neil again doing the scripting, but without the social issues that caused the previous run's low sales and cancellation.
And with Mike Grell doing the art, O'Neil scripted 90-99, 106, and 108-110, beginning with GREEN LANTERN 90. Interesting, because the earlier O'Neil/Adams issues were Grell's inspiration to go to art school and become a comics artist. So he definitely continued the series in the O'Neil/Adams tradition.

Other than Moore, those are all talented writers but most of them were working under the basic "Stan Lee House Style" for most of their careers. Their work was therefore far less influential because it was "Stan lite."

What O'Neil did that Stan didn't was bring a "street level," quasi-reality to comics that was really the beginning of the "grim and gritty" movement: Speedy was a drug addict; GA lost his fortune and got political (and even killed someone [albeit by accident]); Batman, for the first time in thirty years, was back to being a "dark detective," whose obsessions stemmed from a childhood trauma. The Joker and Two-Face stopped being campy villains and became the ruthless kilers we've know since the 70s.

Moore had a lot of influence but a lot of his influence came from his working fusing a certain "realism" and grit to characters. That realism and grit was pioneered (in a less intense way) by O'Neil's above-described work. In particular, Moore's Batman was very much O'Neil's Batman. Same with Moore's Joker.



Gaiman is a great writer but his influence on the field has been minimal. His best known work is high fantasy and his greatest acclaim actually comes from his prose work. There really hasn't been anyone following in his footsteps.

The rest of the writers you mention do all tend, to one extent or another, to have at least one foot in the grim and gritty ground that, as noted above, O'Neil brought to the medium. Morrison, while he dabbles in a lot of high concepts, also goes for grim and gritty when it suits him. More significantly, perhaps, is the fact that his Batman run is best known for spinning of from two of O'Neil's most significant Batman creations: Ras and Talia.



I don't think anyone denies, including Miller, that he was O'Neil's protege. O'Neil hired him at Marvel and served as his editor. When O'Neil went back to DC Miller eventually made his way there as well. And can anyone deny that "Daredevil," even if it was "all Frank," isn't a direct outgrowth of GL/GA and bronze age Batman? And, of course, TDKR wouldn't have existed if Denny hadn't pulled Batman back from the days of Silver Age camp.

Basically, Lee brought comics into the space age while O'Neil brought them back down to earth.

Their respective works are the main genres of modern comics: science fantasy and gritty street level vigilantes.

I mostly agree, or at least think you voice persuasive opinions, but I do disagree on some minor points. Len Wein, for example, I see as early on achieving a distinctive voice and superstardom with his acclaimed SWAMP THING run with Wrightson. They pretty much cleaned up in the awards or nominations for best writer, best artist, best series for the three years the series ran. I could agree with you that for much of Wein's period at Marvel, he mostly wrote in a Stan Lee style. Wein was even editor-in-chief at marvel briefly (as were Wolfman, Thomas, Conway, and Goodwin, until Shooter came along.)

On the Batman front, it was actually Neal Adams (working with Bob Haney and Murray Boltinoff on BRAVE AND THE BOLD in 1968-1969) who started altering scripts and bringing Batman back to his late 1930's avenger-of-the-night roots. Adams would take a script and change a day scene to a night scene, so that he could give Batman more mystery and atmospheric shadows. It was after Adams did this that readers sent letters to DC asking why this atmospheric version of Batman wasn't also appearing in BATMAN and DETECTIVE, at which point in 1970 editor Schwartz paired up O'Neil and Adams. And I think both O'Neil and Adams had similar ideas of taking Batman back to his earliest avenger-of-the-night roots. I don't wish to shortchange O'Neil, just to give Adams some partial credit.
From what I read in an interview (COMIC BOOK ARTIST, or COMIC BOOK MARKETPLACE, Adams had interviews in both, they blend together in my memory) Adams let on that he and O'Neil got along very well in the 70's, but that in the 80's and 90's while friendly, their views on comics storytelling had diverged and no longer had the same shared vision.

Also Doug Moench, as one example, in either his Deathlok/ASTONISHING TALES series, or his 100-plus-issue MASTER OF KUNG FU run, I see as having a much more cinematic style of writing, and not in the same template or house style as Stan Lee.
Wolfman, or Claremont, or much of Wein, or Mantlo, or especially Gerry Conway, I think conformed to a Stan Lee brand of overplayed deadpan melodrama, and pseudo-Shakespearian dialogue, ad nauseum.

The other new school of writers you list from the last 30 years or so I see as a different breed from O'Neil, although perhaps evolving from O'Neil into the contemporary dark cynical style.
The core elements of O'Neil's writing I see as 1) commentary on the human condition, 2) contemporary issues, social relevance, 3) eloquent but direct language, not stilted language or pseudo-Shakespearian dialogue, and 4) social conscience, and philosophical introspection. And 5) a lot of humor, and humorous irony in the mix.

In contrast, I see the work of Ellis, Ennis, Morrison, Millar and the like as nihilistic. Not just "realistic", but dark and cynical. I find their work repellant, and have wondered for 30 years why anyone would read it.
I don't see those elements in O'Neil's work. Again, I guess it could be argued they went a few steps, or miles, beyond O'Neil into the darkness. But I don't see them as kindred spirits with O'Neil that follow in his style.


The one exception to that is O'Neil's Batman from 1986 on. I thought O'Neil wrote Batman so well in the 1970's, the perfect balance, with the character rooted in his parents' death, and his war on crime built from that experience, a deeply personal vengeance. Batman in O'Neil's 1970's work was the perfect balance, vengeful, a creature of the shadows, relentless, but also completely in control, the world's greatest detective.
From 1986-forward, I see the O'Neil-edited Batman line as presenting him as a character losing control, both of himself, mentally cracking, but also losing control in his lack of restraint and impulse-control with others, pointlessly belligerent, intimidating, a character who all of a sudden was an intimidating jerk who didn't play well with others, perhaps even losing his mind.

I found this rather odd and inconsistent from O'Neil, a writer who had handled Batman so perfectly in the 1970's, and now with O'Neil fully in charge of the Batman line, diverged from what made his own work so outstanding on the Batman line.
I see two possibilities: 1) O'Neil was editorially restrained in the 1970's, and this was the true direction O'Neil wanted to go in the 1970's, with Batman the deranged psycho.
Or 2) O'Neil either changed his view of the character, or for marketing purposes changed Batman to something he felt conformed to a new generation of readers, with Batman the deranged psycho. Either way, except for Year One and Dark Knight Returns, it was mostly a new Batman I didn't like or recognize.

You're equating critical acclaim with influence. By that argument, "Annie Hall" was more influential than "Star Wars."



I don't disagree that they a perfect team, playing to each other's strengths and giving us something greater than the sum of its parts. So, of course, Adams deserves credit.

That being said, O'Neil without Adams was still pretty much O'Neil. An O'Neil Batman story drawn by, say, Irv Novick or Dick Giordano, was still the same "Darknight Detective" we got (at least in terms of characterization and story quality) with Adams.

Adams, however, while he might have changed the art in B&B the stories were still more in the pre-O'Neil vein, heavy on sci-fi and fantasy elements and replete with Bob Haney's trademark "faux groovy" dialogue. And let us not dwell upon his more recent Batman work.

Finally, as you touch upon, Adams himself made it clear that O'Neil gave him the "realism" he wanted

• Many comic book writers come from being comic book fans. Not Denny. Denny was a news writer often on the night beat. His eyes saw reality and he wrote that into his work....So, Denny wrote comics of characters that emerged from reality. That being so, why would I need to ever question such a writer? And I never did. Denny made me shine because he gave me reality in a fantasy genre.

In fact, I think Adams touches on something that gets back to what I was trying to get at. O'Neil, brought a sense of naturalism and a journalist eye for realty to comics that hadn't been seen before. That injection of reality into fantasy was something that many writers later attempted with varying degrees of success but it didn't really exist until O'Neil came along.

One of my favorites of the more "naturalist" stories you cite by O'Neil with Novick/Giordano art was in BATMAN 224, about the murder of a black former jazz musician, who in his latter years became impoverished. In the story, Batman sought vengeance for someone who was considered unimportant, but who Batman himself was outraged by the loss of, and sought vengeance for his death, and the truth of what happened to him after the fact.


I thought I was the only one who felt the way you just expressed about the O'Neil/Novick Batman issues, but I too treasure the O'Neil Novick/Giordano BATMAN and DETECTIVE issues just as much as the O'Neil Adams/Giordano ones.
Stories like in DETECTIVE 418 with Batman and the Creeper.
Or the atmospheric "The Demon of Gothos Mansion" in BATMAN 227.

such as the above story in BATMAN 224.


I'm not sure I fully get your acclaim vs. influence point. Len Wein not only got acclaim for SWAMP THING for 3 entire years of outstanding work, but also created the New X-men in 1975, and Wein created multiple other enduringly popular breakout characters.
We both explored that, back in the topic when Len Wein died in 2017.

I think you're right that O'Neil had a higher ratio of trailblazing runs, such as on BEWARE THE CREEPER, BATMAN, DETECTIVE, WORLD'S FINEST, GREEN LANTERN, Edgar Rice Burroughs adaptations in WEIRD WORLDS (as did Len Wein), SWORD OF SORCERY, THE SHADOW with Michael Kaluta, a SHERLOCK HOLMES one-shot I enjoyed, A run on SUPERMAN 233-243, and a few issues of JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA, and many others.
I particularly liked O'Neil's "new WONDER WOMAN" run (issues 178-202) where she had lost her powers, and was a "wonder" based on her exceptional personal ability, on her wits and resourcefulness, rather than on having superpowers.
And a bit of eastern philosophy and mysticism added to the mix, with her older mentor I Ching, martial arts and eastern philosophy being another recurring trait of O'Neil's work in Batman, Wonder Woman, THE SHADOW, JUSTICE INC., RICHARD DRAGON, the "Last of the Dragons" series in EPIC ILLUSTRATED, in DAREDEVIL, and in other O'Neil-scripted series.

I'd say while these other series were interesting, O'Neil's enduring influence was mostly limited to his GREEN LANTERN, BATMAN and DETECTIVE runs. Most of the others were brief assigments where O'Neil provided some interesting twists, but series that once finished, were ideas not continued by others.
I'd say his last influential series was THE QUESTION. Where as we discussed before, O'Neil turned the series into a liberal manifesto that must have annoyed the character's objectivist/conservative creator Steve Ditko. I love O'Neil's THE QUESTION as much or more than Ditko's, just sayin'.

The clearest example of O'Neil's influence on another writer's work is Frank Miller's expansion on the Batman canon with DARK KNIGHT RETURNS and YEAR ONE. And their collaboration as writer/artist and editor on DAREDEVIL.

Much as I love O'Neil's THE QUESTION run, I don't see that series as inspiring others to do other work in the same tradition as O'Neil in other series. But regardless, a great run. Two mostly stand-alone issues I particularly love are issues 5 and 8.

Certainly, one of the highlights of O'Neil's work is his 12-issue run on THE SHADOW.

And concurrently, O'Neil's run in JUSTICE, INC. 1-4. Issue 1 with art by Al McWilliams, issues 2-4 with art by Jack Kirby, that used the Avenger character, who also appeared in issue 11 of THE SHADOW.

DC issued a poorly-colored harcover collection of the O'Neil/Kaluta issues (1-4, and 6), THE PRIVATE FILES OF THE SHADOW, in 1989.

And almost simultaneously with the hardcover reprint, a new THE SHADOW: HITLER'S ASTROLOGER Marvel Graphic Novel by O'Neil and Kaluta, that I was really looking forward to, but was very disappointed by. The new 62-page story was a bit uneven, and an oddly-paired Russ Heath as inker, mostly blunted the decorative linework of Kaluta's pencils.

Also, it ended very abruptly, to the point that I thought there was a printing defect and that the last page was omitted. Everyone I know who read the story said the same thing, they thought a page was missing at the end! But no, that's how it was written.

A virtually unknown O'Neil story, but a great one, is a PHANTOM STRANGER story, issue 8, August 1970, with art by Jim Aparo. I love it on a lot of levels, a race of creatures dormant for thousands of years, re-awakened by human civilization, with social conscience and environmental themes. And a race of creatures that have an almost supernatural aspect to them.

Like many of O'Neil's stories, a one-off story that could easily have been expanded into an entire series.


Also in this issue, the first house ad for Jack Kirby's move to DC from Marvel, and reference to the multiple new series he would be producing. Not specifically naming Kirby's Fourth World or NEW GODS or JIMMY OLSEN, but certainly whetting your appetite for whatever was coming.

O'Neil's single PHANTOM STRANGER issue was followed by one of the earliest series runs by Gerry Conway, who was still in high school writing these issues, that follow well the same compelling themes as O'Neil's story.

Roughly the same period Conway wrote a story in SAVAGE TALES 1, the first appearance of Man-Thing. Conway was only 16 at that point. I'm not a huge Conway fan, but that manifests a remarkable level of ambition and talent.
Likewise O'Neil. O'Neil modestly brought a level of elegance and sophistication, mature themes and social conscience to the titles he was assigned to take over. Whether DETECTIVE COMICS, WONDER WOMAN, SUPERMAN, BEWARE THE CREEPER, SHOWCASE, JLA, WEIRD WORLDS, THE SHADOW, GREEN LANTERN or whatever.

In the period from 1978-1982, DC used to run "DC Profiles" of its writers and artists on their editorial pages.
Here is Dennis O'Neil's, from WARLORD 8, Sept 1977 (and other DC titles the same month) :


"Sergius O'Shaugnessy" was the pseudonym O'Neil used at Charleton, and also his first year or so at DC. When I spoke to O'Neil about it at a convention, he said he selected that name because it was a character in Norrman Mailer's book Armies of the Night, a book that was a favorite of his, which he also referenced in his GREEN LANTERN stories. A pseudonym probably used because he was under contract at Marvel, and couldn't have his name appearing in Charleton and DC titles at the same time. A pseudonym he likely discontinued once his contract at Marvel ran out. BEWARE THE CREEPER ran 6 issues, and that pseudonym was used through the first 3 of those issues. He began transitioning to Denny O'Neil with issue 3.

Another good early O'Neil story is "Abra-Cadoom" , the second story in THE SPECTRE 9, April 1969, that was the second pro story done by Berni Wrightson. Another title edited by Dick Giordano.

Here's a chronological list of O'Neil's other early credits.
http://mikesamazingworld.com/mikes/features/creator.php?creatorid=128

O'Neil was a real trooper, paying his early dues at Marvel, writing a ton of MILLIE THE MODEL stories for years (issues 138-153, June 1966-Sept 1967) , and a lot of western stories. The first thing I read of his early Marvel work were his Doctor Strange stories in STRANGE TALES 145-149 (June-Oct 1966), and 167-168 (April-May 1968), roughly coinciding with Steranko's "Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD" stories running in that title.

It was over the next 3 or 4 years that O'Neil prolifically went on to :

BEWARE THE CREEPER 1-6, after the debut story in SHOWCASE 73 by Ditko and Segall, 1968-1969.
THE SPECTRE issue 9, "Abra-cadoom", art by Wrightson, 1969.
SHOWCASE 82-84 (Nightmaster), 82 with Granenetti/Giordano art. 83-84 with Wrightson art, 1969.
WONDER WOMAN (issues 178-181, 199-202), 1968-1969, 1972.
SUPERMAN 233-242, 244, 247, 1971-1972.
JLA 66-83 and 115, 1968-1970, 1974.

and ultimately
DETECTIVE COMICS (issues 395-411, 414, 418, 419, 422, 425, 431, 451, 457, 481) , 1970-1980.
BATMAN 224-266, 268, 1970-1975
and GREEN LANTERN 76-89. 1969-1972, and issues 90-110 with Grell, and 111-129 with Staton, 1976-1980.

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Dennis O'Neil in his own words, in an interview from at least 14 years ago.

Denny O'Neil interview - by Comicology




During the interview, he talks about Will Eisner, a friend who died "a few months ago", so as Eisner died in Jan 2005, that would place this interview sometime in 2005, 18 years ago.

An often-overlooked issue by Dennis O'Neil is JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA 75, Nov 1969. The story where Green Arrow/Oliver Queen lost his fortune, and became more man-on-the-street socially conscious and liberal.
https://viewcomiconline.com/justice-league-of-america-1960-issue-75/

That was just 6 months before O'Neil and Adams began their famous run in GREEN LANTERN 76, April 1970. And kind of set up Green Arrow to be the liberal side of the conservative/liberal dialogue between the conservative Green Lantern, and the now more socially liberal version of Green Arrow.
https://viewcomiconline.com/green-lantern-1960-issue-76/

I doubt when O'Neil did JLA 75, that O'Neil imagined just 6 months later he'd be teamed with Neal Adams to do the GREEN LANTERN series that would expand on that.
I suspect that it just randomly evolved from editor Julius Schwartz pairing the two as writer and artist on GREEN LANTERN, in an effort to increase sales on the series by taking it in a new direction.

And happening just after Schwartz had paired O'Neil and Adams to do the same with Batman in DETECTIVE COMICS 395, cover-dated Jan 1970, just 3 months before beginning their new GREEN LANTERN series.

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I recently was looking at GREEN LANTERN, and was surprised that O'Neil actually did a few sporadic single issues of the GREEN LANTERN series, as a fill-in writer, before O'Neil and Adams were teamed up in issues 76-89.

These are the issues :

63 by O'Neil and Sparling/Green, Sept 1968
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Green-Lantern-1960/Issue-63?id=28282

64 O'Neil and Sekowsky/Geilla, Oct 1968
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Green-Lantern-1960/Issue-64?id=28283

68 O'Neil and Kane/Geilla, April 1969
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Green-Lantern-1960/Issue-68?id=28287

72 O'Neil and Kane/Geilla, Oct 1969
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Green-Lantern-1960/Issue-72?id=28292

Interesting to see O'Neil in these earlier stories, working with Silver Age artists, in a more conventional Silver Age style, before DC basically fired these older creators all overnight, because they were gently pushing for healthcare benefits and a better living wage. And at that point DC's management had a good reserve of hungry new writers and artists like O'Neil, Wein, Wolfman, Friedrich, Chaykin, Wrightson, Kaluta, Simonson and others who were just grateful to have the work and didn't ask a lot of questions about what happened to their predecessors.

I think it was in the Summer or Fall of 1969 that DC cut loose these creators like John Broome and Gardner Fox very suddenly and replaced them with all these new writers and artists. I don't know if their replacements even knew what happened to the folks they replaced. Comics grandmasters who created virtually all of the DC characters, craftsmen who who had been the backbone of DC's line for almost 30 years, then were abruptly discarded.

But as Dennis O'Neil said in the above lengthy videotaped interview, he spent his first few years doing stories on modest titles for Marvel, Charleton and DC, where there was no pressure, where O'Neil could learn the craft of comics writing for his first 3 years or so, before he emerged as a major talent.

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Man.... it's hard to believe it was already 4 years ago that O'Neil died.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_O%27Neil


O'Neil's Wikipedia listing gives a pretty near complete list of his published comics work, and other work outside of comics. Including science fiction and detective anthology short stories.
And even a few TV scripts I was unaware of till now.

That's a very thoughtful observation. In the Planetary / Batman crossover, Ellis makes a very firm point of distinguishing the O'Neal / Adams Batman from other iterations which appear in a multiversal adventure. This Batman is relentless, sure, but is sane, a detective, and not so much a vigilante as a type of law enforcement official. That is the Batman I grew up with - pre-Outsiders, pre-DKR.

I didn't write a vale for O'Neil on my site. I should have. It was the GL/GA series (reprinted in a high gloss format in the mid-80s) which blew my 14 year old mind and which almost certainly stopped me from growing out of comics. It was gritty, bleak, and had very little to do with alien invaders or costumed villains. (Adam's wonderful art helped.)

Well, thank you. O'Neil almost always included a commentary about the human condition in his stories, and an appreciation for the value of human lives, all lives.
Many of which examples I highlighted in posts above.

I like his early stories in BEWARE THE CREEPER 1-6 with art by Steve Ditko (odd that O'Neil did all 6 issues but not the premiere story in SHOWCASE 73. But maybe Ditko wanted to make the character clearly his own, before adding O'Neil as scripter after the initial origin story. For its time, this 6-issue run is unusually introspective, as Jack Ryder tries to figure out who among his friends is secretly Proteus. Ryder is on the brink of paranoid, but when he finds out who among them Proteus actually is, it turns out Ryder's paranoia was very justified.
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Showcase/Issue-73?id=43483
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Beware-The-Creeper/Issue-1?id=85842

I also like the story with the Creeper in DETECTIVE COMICS 418, by O'Neil and Novick/Giordano, where Creeper/Jack Ryder expresses frustration and guilt about having to take lives, in order to get the chemicals and formula he needs to save his own life. Even amid struggling with his own sanity (page 6), he still feels conscience and guilt about taking a life (or so Ryder thought, Batman turns out to have survived the attack, and still be alive.)
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Detective-Comics-1937/Issue-418?id=5660


And also BATMAN 234, by O'Neil and Adams, where Two Face has taken the gold from a ship he is about to let sink, but Batman makes Two-Face aware that an unconscious wino was accidenttally brought aboard and will drown when the ship sinks, and Batman appeals to him: "You've always prided yourself on being as good as you are evil", and with a coin-toss (Two-Face perhaps hiding his actual conscience and desire to do the right thing under a random coin-toss) Two Face comes back aboard to rescue he wino, and is undone by Batman who escaped his bonds as Two Face turned and came back aboard for the rescue.
Some wonderfully played ironies all the way around.
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Batman-1940/Issue-234?id=17848

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Here's a story I ran across in DETECTIVE COMICS 487, Dec 1979, by O'Neil, with art by Newton/Adkins
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Detective-Comics-1937/Issue-487?id=5729

With a character named Sergius, a writer, who is jogging in New York City, and thinking out loud as he jogs through the streets, working out the plot of a story involving a league of assassins. And is overheard by an actual league of assassins, who don't realize he is just plotting a story, and think he is on to their plans, and want to kill him, to silence him from telling others.

The "Sergius" character is in all but name Dennis O'Neil, and as discussed above, "Sergius O'Shaugnessey" is a frequently used pseudonym by O'Neil in many of his early comics scripts, for many years.
. And as discussed in Marvel Bullpen columns in the 1980's, O'Neil was well known for jogging daily, and despite being in his early 40's, in better shape than many other regulars in the Marvel offices. Much of O'Neil/Sergius' portrayal in DET 487 is a bit silly, and definitely not 100% autobiographical, but still interesting to see how O'Neil chose to portray himself in a story.

O'Neil finished his contract at DC and moved over to Marvel just a few months after this story was published. And he was vocally dissatisfied with DC at that time, and not doing his best work in those last 2 years or so of his DC contract. .
At Marvel (1980-1986), he began writing titles like AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 208-223, and editing and /or writting titles like DAREDEVIL 166-233, MASTER OF KUNG FU 105-125, MOON KNIGHT, BIZARRE ADVENTURES 27-34, SPIDER-WOMAN, POWER-MAN/IRON FIST, and later IRON MAN.

Before O'Neil returned to DC under new leadership, to edit and sometimes write the Batman line of titles (beginning wih BATMAN 401 and DETECTIVE 568, both Nov 1986).
Along with his work on THE QUESTION, AZRAEL and LEGENDS OF THE DARK KNIGHT, from roughly 1986-2000, for the remainder of his comics career.

O'Neal was pretty obsessive about Azrael. It was his pet character. I read somewhere that the title would have been shut down years before because of poor sales, but O'Neal kept it alive through insistence. One Reddit pundit put it down to another "self-insert": https://www.reddit.com/r/batman/comments/11zr9a8/the_dennis_oneal_azrael_self_insert_is_a_little/

I'm both surprised and not surprised.
I was unaware of O'Neil's special attachment to the Azrael character, although it could have been guessed by O'Neil having personally scripted a 100-issue run on the series.

AZRAEL series (Feb 1995-May 2003)
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Azrael-1995/Issue-1?id=32952

In addition to O'Neil being an avid runner (and New York City is not exactly a safe city to nightly jog in), O'Neil was also a practitioner of martial arts, which also comes out in a number of O'Neil's comics series and other writings, in BATMAN and DETECTIVE, in THE SHADOW, in JUSTICE INC., in his RICHARD DRAGON series, in the MASTER OF KUNG FU series he edited, in the "Last of the Dragons" series in EPIC ILLUSTRATED, and others.

Harlan Ellison in his infamous COMICS JOURNAL interview (issue 53, 1980) described that while O'Neil and Ellison were good friends who spent a lot of time together, he said O'Neil had this weird image of himself as a self-styled pulp hero of sorts, that Ellison described as a rather unhealthy self-image for a man in his 40's.
In later writings, Ellison let on that O'Neil was really pissed at Ellison for saying that, particularly in a published interview, and that he was a while reconciling with O'Neil after the fact.
(And needless to say, Ellison pissed off a lot of people he mentioned in that interview. Among them Don Heck, Gerry Conway, and most of all Michael Fleisher, who almost bankrupted COMICS JOURNAL and Fantagraphics with an 8-year lawsuit, that finally went to trial in 1987, where Michael Fleisher lost to an unconvinced jury. )

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And as I think of it, if you haven't already read it, pick up Harlan Ellison's short story collection STRANGE WINE (published 1977), in particular the short story "The New York Review of Bird", where hilariously, Ellison portrays himself as a pulp-hero-like character under his often-used pseudonym "Cordwainer Bird", that he used as his screen name when a studio destroyed one of his screenplays, refusing to let them use his real name to appear on the final product. Essenially with the pseudonym, flipping them the bird.

Beyond humor in a story, there are a number of actual incidents of Ellison engaging in violent mischief.
Such as a clash with Frank Sinatra and his bodyguard, when Sinatra allegedly tried to intimidate Ellison (I think this one was written about in ESQUIRE magazine in the late 1960's).

And another where, after a screenplay Ellison did for "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea" was edited and butchered and Ellison objected, a network executive told him "Writers are toadies, you'll shut up and do what you're told"
And Ellison boasts he ran across the conference table at the executive, and the panicked executive backed away so that he bumped a heavy model of the Seaview submarine, and it fell off its stand and broke the executive's hip.

Or an unsolicited violent assault by Ellison on a writer named Charles Platt, at a convention, where Ellison saw him sometime after Platt made some perceived slight against Ellison, and Ellison allegedly sucker-punched him.

So... Ellison could be said to have indulged on a number of occasions in self-styled pulp heroics himself.
That have for decades been part Ellison's cult of personality, for which Ellison is as famous for as he is for his outstanding talents as a writer of screenplays and short stories.

Ellison was almost certainly stoned during that interview. "He is really is a derange-o." That was over Fleisher's work on The Spectre in Adventure Comics. (I describe Ellison as drunk, but stoned is probably more accurate given the era.) https://www.worldcomicbookreview.co...cs-431-440-1974-5-the-spectre-revisited/

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Ellison in many interviews has said he never used alcohol or drugs (although as psychadelic as some of his short stories are, one could easily speculate otherwise. For example, the story "Shattered Like a Glass Goblin". Or really, just about any of Ellison's work from his 60's and 70's short story collections. I think of "Repent, Harlequin" as sort of an Orwellian Dr Seuss story)

In the topic about Ellison's death, I quoted a long excerpt from the COMICS JOURNAL interview he did with Gary Groth, where among others, Ellison called Michael Fleisher "derange-o".
Which in the full context, said that Fleisher had a wild imagination, that Ellison compared to the imagination and vivid storytelling of authors like Edgar Allen Poe and H.P. Lovecraft. And with humor in the way he said it, I didn't consider that an insult of Fleisher, but placing Fleisher rather honorably in that kind of literary company.
Ellison and Groth gave less than flattering comments about not only Fleisher, but way deeper cuts to people like Gerry Conway, Jack Abel, Stan Lee, Dennis O'Neil, Jim Warren, and others.

But...

Ellison in a playful way said Fleisher is "crazy as a bedbug".
And it turned out (by Fleisher's own admission, in his filed lawsuit) that he actually WAS arguably crazy, seeing a psychiatrist 3 times a week. But if Fleisher himself hadn't made that public in a lawsuit, no one would have known, and Ellison's comment would have only been interpreted by readers as a compliment of Fleisher's wild storytelling imagination.
And as it turned out in 1987 when the case was decided by a jury, against Fleisher, he had humiliated himself for nothing. It turned out, far from the Ellison/Groth COMICS JOURNAL interview hurting Fleisher's writing career, Fleisher's writing income had actually doubled over those years.

Fleisher's work on that Spectre run was in ADVENTURE COMICS 431-440, circa 1974-1975.
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Adventure-Comics-1938/Issue-431?id=41517


And also a signature series of Fleisher's twisted writting is in his runs of WEIRD WESTERN (early issues scripted by John Albano, Fleisher took over the series in issues 22-38)
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Weird-Western-Tales-1972/Issue-22?id=54115

And then a further 92 issues of JONAH HEX in his own title by Fleisher, from 1977-1985.
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Jonah-Hex-1977/Issue-1?id=38854

And then Fleisher took the character to a post-apocalyptic dystopian future in the HEX series, for another 18 issues, from 1985-1987.
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Hex/Issue-1?id=54066

So Fleisher wasn't exactly short on work or unsuccessful in those years.

Well, there you go. I don't agree that seeing a psych three times a week has the same imputation as being described as "deranged", but I didn't know that Fleischer's work wasn't affected.

If Ellison wasn't stoned or drunk, then he was stupid and arrogant to say such things about fellow creators.

I agree wih you, that seeing a psychiarist didn't make the guy crazy. But it did show he was troubled, and it was Fleisher himself who raised it as evidence in his lawsuit. To me, someone who is seeking help, isn't crazy. It manifests they are self-conscious they have a problem, and are seeking help before they get there.

As for Harlan Ellison, I think he was a brilliant and obviously very intelligent guy, but he often would say or do things without much forethought, that manifest he did so without much planning or impulse control. There's a thin line between being a genius and being an idiot !

Here's a letter a reader wrote in reaction to Harlan Ellison, in AMAZING HEROES 100, in 1986:


I think Ellison elicited that reaction in many people, usually deliberately.

Read the introduction to Ellison's 1974 short story collection APPROACHING OBLIVION for a particularly funny account, of author Michael Crichton's own discovery of this trail of angry people Ellison leaves behind. And his own crossing swords with Ellison before even meeting him, and then becoming friends with him.

I first came across Ellison's name in Miller's Dark Knight Returns, when there is the faux interview with Ellison just before the Soviet bomb's electromagnetic pulse plunges north America into darkness and chaos.

Ellison is given a line, along the lines of "... and then we'll be eating our babies for barbecue" (something like that - I'll find it tonight). I always assumed that Miller had Ellison's permission to attribute those words, or even some minor collaboration, but now I wonder if Miller was taking the piss out of Ellison's blustering personality and way of expressing himself.

I loved that scene !

In DARK KNIGHT RETURNS issue 4, pages 13 and 14, with a reporter interviewing Ellison, while Superman high in the atmosphere is stopping a nuclear missile.
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Batman-The-Dark-Knight-1986/Issue-4?id=19985

It is typical Harlan Ellison, saying the most hyperbolic thing in the most hyperbolic way. In the 1970's he'd go to Star Trek conventions and on stage to a Trek-adoring audience say that Gene Roddenberry was a dick, talking about how Roddenberry despite being married would shack Majel Barrett in his backstage room every day while episodes were in production.

And yes, Miller and Ellison were good friends in that period, talking every day, so I'm sure Miller had Ellison's full permission to include that scene. Ellison would have been 52 when that issue was published.


Steve Skeates and Sergio Aragones in PLOP issue 8 (in 1974) did a story involving an art critic named "Elliott Harlanson", a wealthy short-tempered elitist art collector that is so obviously patterned after Ellison, but somehow escapes much notice for the great Ellison parody it is.
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Plop/Issue-8?id=114049

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Man... did anyone know this?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Miller#Daredevil_and_the_early_1980s


I previously knew that Miller didn't like working (for whatever reason) with writer Bob McKenzie. But I didn't know that the book was unpopular and not selling, to the point it was on the verge of being cancelled. I knew O'Neil basically fired McKenzie, and replaced McKanzie, assigning Frank Miller as both wrtier and penciller beginning with issue 168.

I didn't know that move saved the book from cancellation, and I didn't know that beginning with 168, it very quickly became a top seller.
I was aware that when buying these issues off the stands, that the series became monthly with issue 170, but had no idea it was on the verge of cancellation just 3 issues prior to that.


So O'Neil's assigning Miller as writer saved DAREDEVIL from cancellation, going completely the other way, and becoming a top seller.
This turnaround in sales must have made O'Neil a big hero in the Marvel editorial offices, and definitely showed his judgement and skill as an editor.
From 171-up, DAREDEVIL became one of Marvel's bestselling titles in 1981-1982, right next to X-MEN in sales, and with some issues surpassing it. And also neck and neck with DD and X-MEN was Byrne's FF run.

I fell bad for Roger McKenzie though, and I actually like, and even prefer the early Miller issues McKenzie scripted, from 158-166. (167 was scripted by David Michelinie)
I like the human interest angle of McKenzie's stories, particularly in issues 163 and 164, and how clean and detailed Miller's art was in these early issues. My impression is that Miller poured his heart and soul into these early bi-monthly issues,spent a lot of time on them, making them the very best they could be, to solidify his reputation as an artist early on.

Don't get me wrong, I love the DD issues Miller scripted too, particularly 168, 169, and 170-172. But I think because Miller was more restrained for time beyond that point, stretched thin working as both writer and artist, on a suddenly now- monthly series, Miller's DAREDEVIL art became less detailed and at times rushed looking, with oddly distorted anatomy on some pages.
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I can' be sure, but I also see O'Neil, who clearly mentored Miller in this period, as also possibly contributing more to the stories than is credited, possibly co-plotting these issues with Miller. O'Neil and Miller seemed to mesh very well, both in issues 168-191, and later during the Miller/ Mazzucchelli "Born Again" run as well in 226-233.
And after Miller's absence, O'Neil scripted many issues in between Miller's last issue in 191, up till Miller's return on issue 226.

Also of note, the "Child's Play" drug awareness/angel-dust story in DAREDEVIL 183 and 184, was the last collaboration between writer McKenzie with Frank Miller art. It was originally to run in DD 167, but was pulled from publication due to rejection by the Comics Code Authority.
Marvel (and editor O'Neil) struggled to overcome Comics Code objections, and O'Neil toyed with running it in a number of possible formats, as a magazine, as a direct-only title, as a stand-alone one-shot, but finally settled on running it in the regular DAREDEVIL series in issues 183-184, stretching it into a 2 issue story, with new material added.
I'd still like to see the initial full story published somewhere in its original form.


(Cover to DAREDEVIL CHRONICLES, published by Fantaco in 1982 )

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Daredevil-1964/Issue-158?id=703

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Daredevil-1964/Issue-163?id=709
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Daredevil-1964/Issue-163?id=709

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Daredevil-1964/Issue-168?id=714

https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Daredevil-1964/Issue-183?id=730
https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/Daredevil-1964/Issue-184?id=731