RKMBs Forums .::Robegories::. Comic Books azrael: a terrible book? or just really, really bad?

me, im leaning towards terrible. how many chances is batman gonna give this guy? how whiny can dr. tompkins get? since when does she have a brother? and how coincidental is it that her newly found brother, who lives a secluded life in the desert, is now the controller of the new azrael? why destroy the order of st. dumas, only to realize how crappy that makes the book, then decide to bring it back, 40 issues later?

azrael, the book, has just really sucked. including "the bat" in the title might garner a few extra sales, and, save it from cancelation, but, it doesnt make it any better.

the book, and the character, lack an increidble amount of storyline, angles, direction, etc.

lemme say this. i like azrael. i think he' s a great character, just not the way he's portrayed. i think he has incredible, untapped potential. specifically, as a bad guy. he's immensely powerful (with the aid of the brainwashed-state), and has that cool instant-background-history bit, with the legacy of st. dumas. but, make no mistake about it, he's a murderer. and, that, in my mind (and, SOMEtimes in batman's) makes him a bad guy. and, that is where he should be.

make jean-paul a good guy, for all i care. that'll create some cool, two-face like stories. but, azrael, the guy with the swords that light on fire so that he can slice off people's heads... he's evil. gotta be seen that way.

my idea is to just have the order, the power within jean paul, to take over. like, an automated safety mechanism, that kicks in when azrael has been without the order for sometime. have azrael, unbeknownst to jean paul, recreate the order of st dumas (as he does, internally, contain the power and knowledge of centuries!). this will make azrael a formidible opponent, in terms of power and a following. he's already powerful, in terms of fighting skill, just elaborate that the internal workings of the system also heighten his intelligence (not in terms of luthor or wayne's smarts... in terms of a crocidile's... know every aspect of what you need to know to survive, conquer, and rule).

great stories would come from this. incredible confrontations between batman and his falled ally, azrael (even occasionally donning the azbat suit).

worse case scenario... it'd make the character, and the book, interesting again.

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i have spoken

I've never liked him!

I just finally (last month) got around to dropping this book. I can't explain why I stayed with it for so long (especially the last two years) but I'm glad it's finally off my back. I think the main reason I stuck around I cus I really enjoyed Denny O'neil's work on The Question many moons ago and I saw a lot of promise that this book could be a worthy follow up early on. I just can't believe it took me six friggin' years to realize that Denny O'neil was just coastin'.

Makes me wanna rise up and storm the DC offices, but I'm still too damn lazy...

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Member of the Gob militia

well, rufie, at least its never too late... to learn to read.

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i have spoken

Thos huked on fonics buuks rely helped!

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Member of the Gob militia

yeah, 1-800... um... something... damnit... still can't read....

anyway, im glad you decided to drop az. perhaps if this trend continues, and sales drop (even with the life-sustaining "bat" title), the book will come to a close.

and then... I can take over, and, turn azrael into the cool villain character i detailed above! wuhoo!

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i have spoken

They should make Azrael gay and base him on the exploits of Rob Kamphausen!

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Me think Robbie smell of poo poo!

I thought Lobo got cancelled?

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Member of the Gob militia

Lobo was based on Kampys twin sister, Frida!

quote:

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Originally posted by ROY BATTY:
They should make Azrael gay and base him on the exploits of Rob Kamphausen!

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quote:

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Originally posted by ROY BATTY:
They should make Azrael gay and base him on the exploits of Rob Kamphausen!

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know that men call you off topic!

know that men call you offensive!

know that men call you... off topic AND offensive!

therefore, it is the duty of the angel phausen to bring you bannishment!

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i have spoken

Bless you

This book sucks.
sucks!

O'Neil the 'genius', has managed to bilk 3 stupid little kids, 50 idiotic completist fanboys, and myself out of 2 bucks and change every month for nearly 5 years on this piece of flimsy bark.Unlike Harley Quinn, Az can't even pray for the current creative to get shitcanned,flogged, and blacklisted for the whooping cough level of hacking seen every month in the batman spinoff books.
And the sad part is: this used to be a really interesting character in a decently paced and written book.
Fuck it, this book sucks.

dhaise, you sound angry...?...

regardless, i can't help but agree with you. rarely has a character been so cool, so appealing, and held so much potential, but then consistantly shit upon, reducing all appeal.

thanks, az and denny!

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i have spoken

Dhaise, I thought you fell under the heading of the Three stoopid kids!

I would be if I kept spending money on Oneil's shitty pet project.

When did you stop buying it? I must admit to dropping when he changed costume - having a crumby book and a crumby costume is too much!

weirder still... i get the book for free. have for nearly 2.5 years now. but even i dont read it. ... actually, thats not true. i read all the direct-batman tie ins (like NML, etc), and, ill skim thru the book on occasion. but, its frickin horrible. and, i havent actually read an azrael-only issue in years. the books just keep pilin up.

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i have spoken

Have you tried Preperation H? It's good for piles...Or Tucks...

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When I am king, you will be first against the wall...

Gob loves his children...

I stopped purchasing it the issue before last. I'd finally had enough of 'waiting for Mr O'Neil the acclaimed genius to tell the story HE wanted to tell, in the timeframe HE wanted'.
2+ years of lackluster retreads did me in. I could have (and did) overlook the generic Badger ripoff costume Az changed into if the stories had returned to the quality of the first year or so,or even the second.
Truth be told, I'm really tired of O'neils carte blanche in the bat universe when all he contributes to it is a watered down sidekick, and incosistent Batman, and redundant lameasses like Leslie's brother, the death dancer, and kalibax. I'd much rather just read Rucka's stuff, at least it isn't overly repetitive.

if you were in charge...

the solution to this miserible book?

cancellation? new creative staff? new direction (like my "villain" proposal)? character's death? character's "retirement" (to be brought back at a later time)?

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i have spoken

If I were in charge of this book?

First off:
I'd divorce Azrael from the Batuniverse. Most Batman fans hate his guts, loathe anything involving him, and refuse to pick up books featuring the ursurper. I'd wait until this book had a turnaround before trying to entice new fans to it. Why attract readers to be a book that's shit?

The dhaise-fixes:
#1- Eliminate the convoluted backstory: I'd start my run by creating an arc that _explains_ how all these people are in the book, and what their relation to JP is. As it is currently written, this book expects its readers to have followed Az's exploits from day one, without missing anything. When your title character is only featured in one book a month that isn't advertised (and isn't really that hot to begin with) you can't expect all readers to have read EVERYTHING.

#2- Ban the Batman (or The Bat-Man if you prefer). JP will never be thought of as a viable character in his own right (which is the point of headlining a book) when he's little more than a Batman stand-in. He had his chance to work with the unforgiving Wayne, and he blew it. JP is directly responsible for a LOT of damage to Bruce, and until both men are able to get past it, I wouldn't have them crossing paths. We've already seen the dick grayson puppy dog bit, and we've already killed off jason todd the incompetant asshole. Divorce Az from the bat mythos, at least for a while, he suffers in comparison. If that means removing JP from Gotham, so be it. Star City could always use a new hero.......
#3- The Order of St Dumas- who fucking cares? In the mini, the Order had whittled away to 'a half dozen old men', by the ongoing, it was still a world power with cathedrals full of acolytes and assassins in numerous locations. Then it got 'wiped out', and now suddenly, it's 'aisian office' is a power again. Detail what the Order is, what JP's relationship with it is, and stick with it. Personally, I liked the crumbling cartel of stubborn men keeping old secrets, and I'd like to see Az do SOMETHING either for or against the OoSD....

#3- Costumes- The focus of this book seems to have shifted to 'what outfit will JP wear today'?. The old one still strikes me as one of the most distinctive, original, intimidating, and cool designs in the DCU. The new one is generic with nothing saying 'Angel of Death','Order of St Dumas', or 'Dangerous'. the new one says 'Just another super hero', and it does so blandly.
The latest costume just strikes me as an excuse to change suits once again, but because of the simularities to his original costume I could live with it.

#4- Focus on a direction instead of starting a new one. Az has had 3 'bold new directions' in as many years, and they are indistinguishable from each other. Agent of the Bat is a byline to sell books, not a job description. JP has been running errands for Bats since day one, his 'promotion' didnt change his role. He's no closer to the batfamily than he was at the end of the first direction in his book. O'neil likes to sit on subplots, have all the action and resolution occur 'offpanel' and then show us all these (not so)dramatic changes as if they should matter to us.
I would label his direction: A Peaceful man trying to make up for past failures, which he has a lot of. the only 'real' success he has had as a hero has been his ability to beat the shit out of Bane (twice).

How to define this character, increase his exposure, and make him interesting?

Teamups. Or more accurately, actively opposing the badboys of the DCU. The competant, got their shit together cool as ice guys who don't tune out in a fight, don't lose their cool, and are professional.
Azrael the bumblefuck assassin crossing paths with Slade Wilson again.
Azrael attempting to protect someone from Deadshot.
Would Azrael be able to defend Nocturna from a pissed off Night Stalker?
For a more symbolic encounter, cross this 'avenging(fallen) angels path with etrigan the demon.

#5- A rogues gallery. A worthy rogues gallery. If you are only as good as your opposition, Az couldn't take out timmy drake or bart allen.
Bane would (or should) be a bit more concerned about the guy who spanked him twice, cost him gotham, and tarnished his victory over wayne. I'd focus his hatred more on JP than BW.
Nicholas Scratch could stick around, since he's all the things JP isn't..well recieved,talkative, and charismatic. He's also a pretty thin character that could have any number of subplots or character development tossed his way while still being famaliar to the 4 people who bought this book during no man's land.
Biis. for a while ,leHah assumed the role of biis, az's theological counterpart.. If I were writing, he'd do so again.
As cool as Ra's is, I'd write him out as none of his desires to make Az his heir over wayne have been reflected in a single appearance outside of this book. All continuing them would do is reinforce that 'az is batsy's stand in' complex.
On a random note: Az would make a great target for the DEO, or a nifty short termer in the Suicide Squad.

a divorce from the bat-universe? naw, not yet. while i agree, he shouldnt be THIS connected... i think its too late to seperate him. his tie to the batbooks is the only thing keeping the book, and the character, alive (all be it pathetically). the title change (from azrael, to azrael: agent of the BAT) was a nececssary evil.

no, i think what azrael needs is a change in direction. a REAL change in direction, not the "oh, now i have new shoes" change in direction. but, it needs to start off in bat-land, so that people might actually read it. were az to seperate now, the 25 or so batfans that buy it, just cuz of the tie in, would disappear, leaving the 7 azrael fans the impossible task of fending for themselves.

i still say az's strongest chance at survival is the "bad guy" formula. i think thats what works best for his character, what'd work best for his following, his popularity, and, what actually fits in with stories.

when you get to the bottom line, azrael is a bad guy. say what you will about jean paul, azrael is an avenging angel, equipped with blades to disembowel and/or slice up those he, and/or "the order," see fit. granted, that doesnt make him 100% evil, but, like, say, hitman, azrael would NEVER be accepted by any established hero in the DCU.

i think the focus should be placed on an azrael/jean paul split, ala dr. jekyl/mr. hyde. jean paul is not azrael. azrael is its own seperate entity, a figure who has existed for 500+ years. this being should be infinitely more powerful than jean paul who, just 2 years ago (comic time) was a regular, college kid.

in addition, within azrael is not only the system, but the order of st. dumas. he protects, serves, and avenges this almighty order, and should continue to do so to all extents. and that, i feel, should mean continuing its existence, rebuilding it from scratch, if need be. (otherwise, what is the point of azrael? why continue to grant jean paul super-human powers?)

there's an episode of BTAS, where the duplicant of batman is the sole surviving robot from HARDC. thus, this "faker batman" makes its goal to recreate HARDC, to continue its work and its plans.

this should be the same deal with az. azrael should, without JP's knowing, perhaps, be recreating a powerful order, allowing both the order, and the angel, to increase in strength with each coming day (or over a few consecutive issues). and, finally, one day, JP should "snap," and perhaps even dissappear for awhile, as azrael emerges stronger than ever.

now, with all of batman's trust, azrael (appearing as jean paul) can do what he pleases. steal from wayne, surprise attack him, or just leave, and further grow in power, only to eventually surprise attack batman (azrael's fiercest enemy, as it was the bat that overpowered and defeated azrael).

thus, an incredibly cool villain is created. one who already has a history within the DCU (both in azrael's 500+ year life, as well as the nearly 10 years he's existed in comics).

he'd be a phenomenal bat-villain, as bruce and jp have such a connected past, but could also serve as a villain to any character, as he, and the order, grow in power. eventually, he could even, perhaps, challenge the entire JLA, with a religious army, dedicated to their cause (similar, perhaps, to ra's, and his attack on the jla).

azrael could be seen as an incredible power, both in battle, as well as in planning (not that azrael would be intellectually smart, but, as a warrior, much like, say, genghis khan, he'd be an excellent strategist, and planner for the future).

this, i see, giving AZ incredible potential. great conflicts between az and bats, exposure to az and the rest of the dcu, inner battles between az and JP. plus, the "shock" value of the ordeal (a "beloved" hero turning bad, i.e; emerald twilight) would, at worst, generate sales, and an increased following.

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i have spoken

Short of Erik Larsen, nothing could make this book worse.

Rob Liefeld

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When I am King you will be first against the wall
With your opinions which are of no consequence at all...

Gob loves his children...

Rob L would make Lilhy a 'bad girl' and she'd oust JP out of the book.
Given ONeils last 40 issues or so, I doubt people would notice.

I think they should give him truth lasers....

He can have the ones the Bat-man gave up!

Bsams, you've already given the rights of the Truth-Laser to Marvel!

It is going to be their Summer Cross Over!

How did this end, by the way?

The only way it could...

...badly.

Did he die?

No one dies in comics...

So he lived?

He ambigously died, I believe.


And is it just me... or Denny O'Neil is to DC as Chris Claremont is to Marvel? (except Chris still gets work)

He's like a mix between Stan Lee and Chris Claremont.

I think he's more like Frank Miller and Chris Claremont. With a touch of Doug Moench and a dash of Roger Stern.