And one more thing, if Diana is going to be always the same, then, there will never be a need for her to be presented in more than a comic book all for herself, because there will be so little to say about her.
I really feel that WW needs to get a set personality and direction. There are angles in the current story that could be played up on ie. international intrigue but somehow we are being fed the wide eyed innocent who cries at the drop of the hat and is always suprised by an attack. too bad. As long as she is kept in this static state she will always be concidered second rate by most readers and continue to get no respect.
quote:Originally posted by Polux_Dioscuros: Hi Funk... Viking Woman, my dear, you look so good here! , Kassandra, Mister K... a lot of people from the Message Boards here, a big hello to all of you.
I think that Wonder Woman is one of dc's big three because she's the only character that along Superman and Batman has her title being published since the golden age, the other characters that are as old as her, have not this extraordinary record.
Alas, Wonder Woman isn't very respected, and sometimes not even by the very own house that publishes her. In this last volume of Wonder Woman (as I intend in the first one too), the inconsistency is an understatement.
About what's happening right now, well, I'm not liking it, and since I think we could talk a little more freely here than in the Message Boards, I think that sometimes, Phil talks very much alike his Wonder Woman in the comic. I respect everything about him on a personal level, but I cannot forgive him, for making her sound so corny and at times... so foolish!
Hey, Polux!
I just couldn't resist the connection to my job in the military! Thanks Rob!
I agree with you, funk and misterk wholehertedly. This character has profoundly been changed from its original design undre Marston. She needs focus and direction. She needs a stable personality. I don't think anything this side of a crisis will fix her now.
Having said that, I do feel the current angle has potential ie. international intrigue but I don't think we will get it. Too bad.
quote:Originally posted by kassandra: and which diana would that be? this is the first time in at least a decade that diana has sounded like herself again. could it be that those who complain that she just isn't herself simply never knew her to start with? it really seems like most fans don't care one way or the other about diana herself, as long as someone is wearing the red white and blue.
consider the world diana was born into, her gods/spirituality and the important role they play in her life, and the innocence she knew before coming to our jaded shores. it only stands to reason that she is always going to be taken aback somewhat by the arrogance of humans with regard to great gaea, her children, and our very own. accepting that and going with the superficial is simply not in her nature.
what i'd really find curious is why so many fans are threatened by this very honest depiction of diana. she really isn't that impossible a role model to follow. what is it about her world view that frightens some people? i think this by the number of posters who rush like lemmings towards the most shallow vision of diana. yeah, let her toss around other super-powered beings, move mountains without breaking a sweat...but never, oh never, reveal the woman within. and gods forbid that woman should be any different from the rest of us. it simply won't do. how sad. doesn't anyone care for *diana* at all?
-kassandra
It is because we do care about Diana that we voice our concerns. Its too bad that you feel we are threatened by thid Diana because I can assure you I am not. She is just too shallow and undefined is all. I wish you could get some of the Marston issues and see how she was then. She is now too wide eyed and innocent. She is never ready for a battle and mostly gets her butt kicked by everything that comes along. I don't like to see this and niether do most folks.
She can be warrior, peacemaker and ambassador if done right. However an element of realism must also be given to her. All we have is some halfassed spiritual concept instead of a character. Who needs that? Who reads WW for spirituality? She can be a teacher and a role model. Just read some Marston/Peter issues and you will se what I'm getting at. She needs to be rounded out as a character and brought back to her roots. loebs did a good job in progressing the Marston version like misterK pointed out. Why are you threatened by this version?
Funny that some people feel that we feel threatened by a "spiritual" Diana! If a half-assed "writer" can't get a grasp on her character,why should we pay for that? Dc should get a writer,not an artist who dabbles in writing. I think some people feel threatened by teh idea of a woman who kicks ass. She can be both a force to be reckoned with and a gentle soul, All we have now is a bunch of IDEAS and IDEALS passing off as a character...
quote:Originally posted by funkherelikeitornot: Funny that some people feel that we feel threatened by a "spiritual" Diana! If a half-assed "writer" can't get a grasp on her character,why should we pay for that? Dc should get a writer,not an artist who dabbles in writing. I think some people feel threatened by teh idea of a woman who kicks ass. She can be both a force to be reckoned with and a gentle soul, All we have now is a bunch of IDEAS and IDEALS passing off as a character...
Yep, This the problem alright. WW has become more of a concept instead of a person. She has also been used as an icon for this and for that over the years. I think this has also hurt her character. Why do folks need her to be an icon for some cause? Can't they just enjoy her for the comic book character she was supposed to just be? Why make her a poster child for some cause?
quote:Originally posted by funkherelikeitornot: You hit the nail!!! No matter how great her ideals are,WW is not an ideal,she is supposed to be a woman,a super powered woman at that!
Thats it exactly! She is supposed to be a powerful woman who rights wrongs and gets the bad guys. Almost a knight in shining armour. Too bad we are not getting much of that. I think her stories also need some continuity to them. Right now there are so very many loose ends that I don;t think they can ever be resolved anytime soon.
just wnana pop in real quick (i save the big replies for the work week, so i can waste time!! )
for starters, i like the second batch o' pics, funky. much nicer! more of an alex ross take on the wondie lady.
as for the kassanda vs. the world battles...
i dunno, i still dont really think either of you are wrong. you both are right, and you both have your opinions. and, you both have your versions of ww that you enjoy.
i can never understand why people would like the batman who stalks around in baby blue and gray pajamas, and makes appearances at car shows. to me, thats not batman. but... it doesnt make fans of that batman wrong or dumb or annoying, or whatever. they just have a different appreciation for the hero.
there are thousands of people that love jiminez's 'spiritual' wondie -- they cant ALL be in a daze of sorts. maybe they're looking at things differently than you did, but they've still got points,
I don't have aproblem with Kassandra. I just want to discuss with her how we can have both. To each his own. I still think the JLA angle could solve this whole thing.
Thanks Rob! I actually like the Frank Miller take more! I think she looks more like what a greek woman would look like! (I know,I know,There are blue eyed greek women!DUH) And once again I agree with Viking Woman; WW needs direction! BTW.I definitely like the idea of a separate WW book that showcases her amazonian,fierce side, the problem is that as long as we have this wimpy version that Jimenez does,the book will keep selling crappily,and DC wont have the desire or inclination to waste money and time on another book!
You know, come to think of it, Tarene over in Thor is a good example of a young inexperienced woman coming to advance the world. She too is learning but still kicks ass. No fooling her in a fight!
quote:Originally posted by Viking Woman: You know, come to think of it, Tarene over in Thor is a good example of a young inexperienced woman coming to advance the world. She too is learning but still kicks ass. No fooling her in a fight!
Yep. She is still befuddled by some things,but when push comes to shove she will hand you your ass in a platter! If only Jimenez read THE MIGHTY THOR!
you seem to think that if wondie was revealed to be a kick ass kinda super-bitch, she'd rule the sales charts.
and, honestly, i doubt it. i think she'd have the same exact (or close) sales figures, because the fans are pretty split.
we'd have you guys talking about how great wondie is, and kassandra and company talking about how lame she is. (like the hal/kyle green lantern split. doesnt matter who's up there, the fans will be split).
buuuut... if you get two book out there, one of each... id think everyone would be happy.
since there's only one, tho... i think there'd need to be a compromise of sorts.
lemme ask you (all of you) this:
do you like mark waids kingdom come wonder woman? do you like grant morrison's JLA wonder woman? do you like bruce timm's animated JL wonder woman?
who is the best scribe for the super lady -- who does her the most justice?
if the bruce timm, animated wonder woman became THE wonder woman (meaning the very next comic issue, with no explanation , started off with this wonder woman)... would you be happy?
is she a great example of a wondie all enjoy? and do you think this would increase her "star power" and elevate her to the big three?
The thing,Rob,is I don't want Diana to be a BITCH...just a kickass,PROACTIVE heroine....I don't care if she sells or not...The comic will be published,regardless...But I certainly would enkoy it more,and I think she would be more respected if she won more battles instead of the crappy cryathon we see every month on her book...
quote:Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen: i dunno...
you seem to think that if wondie was revealed to be a kick ass kinda super-bitch, she'd rule the sales charts.
and, honestly, i doubt it. i think she'd have the same exact (or close) sales figures, because the fans are pretty split.
we'd have you guys talking about how great wondie is, and kassandra and company talking about how lame she is. (like the hal/kyle green lantern split. doesnt matter who's up there, the fans will be split).
buuuut... if you get two book out there, one of each... id think everyone would be happy.
since there's only one, tho... i think there'd need to be a compromise of sorts.
lemme ask you (all of you) this:
do you like mark waids kingdom come wonder woman? do you like grant morrison's JLA wonder woman? do you like bruce timm's animated JL wonder woman?
who is the best scribe for the super lady -- who does her the most justice?
I like all of these WW. In the current run we don't have any of them. I really think WW needs to be a comic book hero and not some poster child for some cause. I know in my area most poeple will not touch the comic because they concider her to be weak, boring without enough action or just plain undefined. Others see her as a comic that is way too preachy when it comes to pushing certain social agendas. I know my store will only order about five copies because they don't sell. I can go in there today and still get one from three months ago. I spoke to the guys who run the place and they gave me the reasons above. I'm old friends with them so they were pretty straight with me about it.
Under Messner-Loebs people were buying the book like hotcakes in comparison. While she had continuity problems at least she had an interesting personality and a sense of humour.
Under the current run there is something lacking in the character and has been since the departure of Messner-Loebs. I also don't think most people want to read about any kind of political or social agenda. WW has taken on this flavor as well. There are times that I think I'm reading a political mailing more than a comic.
I don't know if this makes sense or not but I really feel that until WW gets back to being a superhero instead of a political or spiritual idea she will never sell or be respected by the masses out there. I don't know how she got this image but I hope she loses it and gets back to the type of hero you describe in Kingdom Come, JLA the comic and Jla the TV series. Any and all of those incarnations would suit me just fine.
with a hollow hammer, it seems. last time i checked, part of diana's uniqueness stems from the fact that she was *gifted by the gods* and isn't so commonly superpowered (not that it's a bad thing) as many of her counterparts.
like it or not, she is very much a reminder of an ideal, and just a bit of a spiritual figure. loebs even had an elseworlds planned that would feature diana becoming the spiritual leader to the women of the dcu way back in 92. the new editor, augustyn, killed that.
oh, and as far as diana being somewhat different from marston's initial concept, marston never really showed us what a culture like hers would be like, he never went beneath her skin to show us the woman/goddess residing within. all of what perez and now jimenez (smile while your taking your prozac) have shown us has taken that into account. if a girl was blessed (not given superpowers easily stripped by some third rate villains- and how could they really as the gifts were imbued with her lifeforce?) with extraordinary gifts by her deities at birth (via parthenogenesis)and then raised in a culture like that of themiskyra, this would be her story. the values and beliefs she holds so near to her heart would not be that different. but maybe that's just too sincere and deep for some? remember the roundtable that mindy mayer had with various patriarchal religious leaders in "time passages" where they were accusing diana of spreading her "pagan" (now there's a joke: it's a patriarchal distinction)ideals to the masses? well, you make me wonder which side of the table your sitting on. no, wait, you've already proven that.
-kassandra
quote:Originally posted by funkherelikeitornot: You hit the nail!!! No matter how great her ideals are,WW is not an ideal,she is supposed to be a woman,a super powered woman at that!
ah, but diana is *not* tarene. hence my remarks about many not getting who she is or caring about who wears that red white and blue armour. if your so keen on changing who diana is at her core, why not turn superman into a smash 'em up, ask no questions kind of tyrant?
yes, we can enjoy diana's many facets, but at the center of it all is diana herself, and i still wonder if you even get who she is.
-kassandra
quote:Originally posted by Viking Woman: You know, come to think of it, Tarene over in Thor is a good example of a young inexperienced woman coming to advance the world. She too is learning but still kicks ass. No fooling her in a fight!
kingdom come was quite good, even though waid so totally missed the mark with diana in many respects. i could see how in that reality she'd get to where we saw her when the story began. but for waid to paint her as a conniving woman out to vindicate herself at all costs...that was a bit much. still, he was building from the hackneyed loebs continuity of the day. she was still diana, though i could have stood with just a tad less of the bloodletting. the way she was shown in war? well, it was war. i like this story so much that the hardcover is still making the rounds of my friends and co-workers...many of whom never picked up a comic in their lives.
morrison? well, he didn't seem to have much of a grasp on diana, though some of the action was good. waid seems to be lost down the same path. his queen of fables ("my love song for wonder woman" was to have prominently showcased diana, which it did not. despite that, and the mucking about with continuity outside jla, it was an okay read. but for someone used to dealing with magic and "mythological" beings, diana seemed somewhat lost for most of the story.
the new jl diana...i like. she is as young as our own was when she left themiskyra, though her characterization sometimes seems slightly off, but i don't fault the writers, as i suspect there's more than we've been shown as of yet. i'm not fond of the powering down she's gotten or that just when we saw her apparently reaching for the lasso to compel the truth from some baddie, batman comes in and whispers to the guy until he whimpers. all of the players have gone through this to some extent, so it's forgiveable.
diana does need a second book, perhaps done in the animated style, which might appeal just a bit more to the casual reader. i'd even pay a dollar more for the monthly title if they'd expand the page count so that we got more story, and also had other stories featuring donna and artemis, who have become vital parts of the mythos.
thus far the only incarnation i've abhored has been the pander to the lowest common denominator-papercut deep-wanker book put out throughout much of the loebs run. he did so well with diana in dr. fate, but when he came on the book all went out the window. i find alot of that hard to forgive, as i know much of the behind the scenes story from many a conversation with dc staffers of the time. oh, then there was augustyn himself. at least i can say that i was viciously cursed at by a dc editor in what started out as a pleasant conversation.
-kassandra
quote:Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen: kassandra! wait, wait! over here!
thus far the scribes to do diana the most justice have been george and phil, hands down. they get the woman inside the armour better than anyone else ever has.
-kassandra
quote:Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen: kassandra! wait, wait! over here!
quote:Originally posted by kassandra: kingdom come was quite good, even though waid so totally missed the mark with diana in many respects. i could see how in that reality she'd get to where we saw her when the story began. but for waid to paint her as a conniving woman out to vindicate herself at all costs...that was a bit much.
well, i think you had it at first -- it was much more of a "do or die" society in the future, and diana was at war. superman reacted similarly to how you did, shocked and/or amazed at diana's new brutality (even batman seemed amazed by it). but... this is what she had come to -- it was something she felt that needed to be done. and, within the context, i think she was very well characterized.
quote:the new jl diana...i like. she is as young as our own was when she left themiskyra, though her characterization sometimes seems slightly off, but i don't fault the writers, as i suspect there's more than we've been shown as of yet.
this is more or less what i was looking for.
it seems most everyone is agreed that this is a good wonder woman, even fans as diverse as kassandra and funky.
this is what should be strived for. an amalgam, that draws in all areas of wondie fans. its obvious that neither of you guys will find that this is the perfect wonder woman, but if both of you enjoy her, its obvious that this is a great direction to go in.
again, i think the animated team is brilliant when it comes to finding ideals like this. for a character 6+ decades in the making to be enjoyed by such an extreme range of fans is an amazing accomplishment, and should not be taken lightly.
further... the jl not only appeals to funks' amazonian appetite and kassandra's spiritual appetite... but she appeals to my newbie appetite. as someone who has never really gotten into wonder woman (excuse me, ..mrrowl..) id find myself a regular fan, were the stories presented in an animated format -- not necessarily the artwork (tho id appreciate that all the more), but the storylines.
simple. to the point. "less is more." the animated team has an extraordinary knack for telling a "simple" story with incredibly deep results.
were the artwork to follow the same format, fans would also get an amalgamated look -- a diana who is certainly bold and strong, but strikingly beautiful and soft in her own way. truly a fighting princess.
I think KC Diana was written pretty well, considering the future world being a much harder place. The Amazons had considered her a failure in her mission, and did something to punish her? I think....Removed her title or something, didn't they? I don't have my collection here but she mentioned something about it when she and Clark were talking and catching rocks in space. Over it and cynical, was how I saw her. Trying to get redemption.
Alamgam - Storm Wondie! LOVED that, was just looking at that yesterday- great story...
The JL Wondie is excellent...although I wished they had kept her origin. Being thrown off the island is certainly a new twist.
LOL!!!!!!!! Kassie,you are a riot!!!! You use the word hackneyed to speak about somebody's WW writing and were not referring to Jimeneez? Do you even know what hackneyed means? OK! LOL! Just read any of Diana's dialogue during Phil's run so you can truly understand what hackneyed means! You wanna keep Diana in her current lethargy? Cool! It seems you truly enjoy bad writing and even worse characterization...I wonder if you are related to Phil? That is the only way I can see you actually saying that Phil does justice to the character! And you say that Loebs WW was paper thin? Maybe,but it was as paper thin as the prissy,sissy Barbie that Phil is giving us! No real meat,no substance,just romantic platitudes strung together by cheesy,cornball words! Thank God (or the gods) that Phil's run will eventually end,and in the grand tradition of comics,the next writer will just ignore all of Jimenez' "brilliance"
i won't bother to ask if your on crack as you've clearly answered that yourself. there's very little romantic dialogue in the book, but you seem to find it so. perhaps if it were written so badly as, oh, glory, you might like it better? why do you have so much trouble accepting the fact that we're getting a realistic portrayal of diana? if her being centered within her spirituality bothers you so much then why not write and draw your own comic about some tough testosterone chick that really has no depth or meaning to her? i'm sure some of your "agreeable" cohorts from the ww mb would love it.
oh, and lastly, my friends call me kassie. you, sir, have not earned that familiarity with me, and doubtless never shall. so back off a bit, will you? you do understand the meaning of boundaries don't you? if not, you might ask your friend in the $2.50 word a month club what it means. another good one: propriety.
-kassandra
quote:Originally posted by funkherelikeitornot: LOL!!!!!!!! Kassie,you are a riot!!!! You use the word hackneyed to speak about somebody's WW writing and were not referring to Jimeneez? Do you even know what hackneyed means? OK! LOL! Just read any of Diana's dialogue during Phil's run so you can truly understand what hackneyed means! You wanna keep Diana in her current lethargy? Cool! It seems you truly enjoy bad writing and even worse characterization...I wonder if you are related to Phil? That is the only way I can see you actually saying that Phil does justice to the character! And you say that Loebs WW was paper thin? Maybe,but it was as paper thin as the prissy,sissy Barbie that Phil is giving us! No real meat,no substance,just romantic platitudes strung together by cheesy,cornball words! Thank God (or the gods) that Phil's run will eventually end,and in the grand tradition of comics,the next writer will just ignore all of Jimenez' "brilliance"
i don't really have a problem with that, rob. different is a good thing. i'd just like to be able to move on and discuss things without the bitterness that permeates the dc mb. i'm so not into that.
i'd rather spend my time working out, lolling about in the evening listening to chet baker & reading a book, or just talking to my boyfriend and dreaming of the future.
so, with that said, mister(?) and vw- let's just agree to disagree and table this once and for all. okay?
-kassandra
quote:Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen: you guys know that yer never gonna convince one another of the opposing view point, right?
so why not just embrace the fact that yer different, yer always gonna be different, and that, like my momma told me, its ok to be different.
Rob, you should really check out Secret Files #3 that got released today - don't mean to spoil it for the others (not really spoiling) but if there was ever a jump-on point for Diana this would be it. It's got a 4 page file on her, all her supporting characters, her weapons, history, and rogue gallery. The story inside is short compared to the Files section. Not to mention drawn by Phil. It's gorgeous! Plus, it's got a blonde-haired special guest that was just all OVER Crisis. Say what you like about Phil's current writing, but the guy amazes me when it comes to continuity of the past. He had to have read the entire series at least twice.
, Kassandra, Mister K... a lot of people from the Message Boards here, a big hello to all of you.
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