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quote:
Originally posted by KMT:
You say you want a more human Batman. Has Batman ever been more human than in The Killing Joke?
yes. all the time.
lemme ask you a question. yer human, right? (ok, another question). how would you react if you were constantly chasing around this looney guy whom you wanted to try to rehabilitate, but instead, he crippled your partner, murdered another, and kidnapped/tortured your best friend?
the more "human reaction," to me, is to go nutty with pent up rage and lash out at the criminal, not to share one-liners while waiting for the police.
again, i understand the purpose of TKJ's story (and think its wonderful, btw), but i'm not particularly fond of how it relates to being a direct batman story.
quote:
Originally posted by KMT:
The uber Bat from Morrison's JLA wouldn't have laughed. I don't really see how he's unfeeling either.
morrison's batman, whom i love, would have more than likely devastated the joker, healed babs, then re-opened that abandoned circus for kids of all ages.
his batman i love because he's inspirational (on an imaginary and relative basis, not to myself)
but its loeb's batman who has the feelings of rage, falters slightly by letting them get the best of him, then forcibly relents, trying his best to remember he's the good guy, and can't permit himself such acts.
human.
quote:
Originally posted by KMT:
Loeb killed Superman. Dini is like one of three people (Donner and Puzo being the others) who's ever really gotten Superman right.
the important phrase to add, here, is "to you." i find that both of them gave superman and batman a wonderfully human quality i've not seen equalled, and one that i find necessary to an enjoyable character.
quote:
Originally posted by King Krypton:
As for Loeb's Batman (pre-"Hush"), I think he was trying to achieve a middle ground between the one-note sameness of the 1986-current Batman and the humanity of the 1940-1986 version. And I think he succeeded, making Batman somber and depressed without making him a jerk.
yeah, i think loeb (as well as dini) are great at picking the portions of the character they've enjoyed over the years, and combining them to form an updated, current version.
all that said...
the dark knight returns is still my all time favorite book (suffixes like "comic" and "batman" need not apply).
noticeably darker and heavier than loeb or dini's batman, of course, but no where near the demonic mennace attributed with the style or time period (due to the 80s-90s bastardizations of these takes).
miller's dark knight had just as many human qualities about him, allbeit experienced from the opposite side of the spectrum.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
[lemme ask you a question. yer human, right? (ok, another question). how would you react if you were constantly chasing around this looney guy whom you wanted to try to rehabilitate, but instead, he crippled your partner, murdered another, and kidnapped/tortured your best friend?
the more "human reaction," to me, is to go nutty with pent up rage and lash out at the criminal, not to share one-liners while waiting for the police.
Are you also saying that the most human reaction a kid to have to seeing his parents killed is to dress up like a bat so that you can sneak around at night and scare crooks?
You make some good arguements, but you seem to forget a very important point: Batman himself is mentally unstable. He, too, is insane, though to a different degree. Batman is not going to react like Rob Kamphausen and vice versa.
Rage is an acceptable byproduct of his frustrations and so forth. But don't forget that the Batman/Joker relationship is wholly different than it is for the rest of his rogues galary. There bond is more deeply rooted and twisted than any others'.
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He's a ticking time bomb. It's only a matter of time before he goes off.
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quote:
Originally posted by thedoctor:
Are you also saying that the most human reaction a kid to have to seeing his parents killed is to dress up like a bat so that you can sneak around at night and scare crooks?
point.
batman is, of course, a lil cooky.
but the dcu is littered with flying heroes, adopted aliens, time travelling fiends, and costumes-a-plenty!
"normal" is a word applied on a sliding scale.
my take is that, in batman's world, dressin up like a big goblin isn't all that extreme (considering it seems to be all the rage, especially in gotham). that said, bein a little off-kilter wouldn't make him (that) odd, and certainly not remove his humanity.
for all other intents and purposes (age-defiance and giant-dinosaur-statue aside), batman is just a man, sharing all the benefits and hindrances.
thus, i see him "logically" (and, at worst, believably) reacting in a TLH fashion, as opposed to the completely unlogical (unbelievable) TKJ fashion.
quote:
Originally posted by thedoctor:
Batman is not going to react like Rob Kamphausen and vice versa.
im certain the joker's posting privelages would be revoked.
quote:
Originally posted by thedoctor:
But don't forget that the Batman/Joker relationship is wholly different than it is for the rest of his rogues galary. There bond is more deeply rooted and twisted than any others'.
which i'd readily accept as justification, had the victims (in the case of TKJ) not been his best friend and crime-fighting partner.
as twisted as batman is, and as absurd as his "relationship" with the joker is, i feel his bond with the gordons should have somehow come into play in a more "realistic" undertone.
batman's "craziness" shouldn't come into play as laughing with the guy. i think it should be more of a battle with "i'm so crazed, i'll kill him" vs. "i'm so crazed, i'll hold my 'hero code' and not kill him."
to me, the batman/joker climax in dkr was infinitely better.
loeb's HUSH issue with the joker (... 613?) was perfect. every punch filled with rage, every flashback fueling another punch. the infuriating desire to kill this animal, stepping over every self-drawn line in the batman's life, and burdening, agonizing reality that he simply couldn't do it (after a near-fatal reminder from his long-time friend).
that was good stuff.
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I think the ending to TKJ was warranted. Yes, I am bearing in mind that Barbara was paralized, but the whole book wasn't purely about the Joker's victims, even the ones that Batman is close to. It was the principle involved, the methods of Joker's madness that Batman opened up to. As I surmised before which is noted up top: He let go. The entire point wasn't exactly vengeance this time. It was understanding. quote:
Originally posted by thedoctor:
Are you also saying that the most human reaction a kid to have to seeing his parents killed is to dress up like a bat so that you can sneak around at night and scare crooks?
Not necessarily so. The TRUE human reaction was Bruce fleeing so a stronger personality could take over. Not necessarily a "Batman". The Bat was just placed in his mind after two occurences: 1) The cave incident. Even after that, the Bat stil wasn't stuck in his mind when he decided to be a vigilante. 2) The Bat through the window. Only after this REMINDER was he truly motivated to be a bat.
Also...
This goes the same for Joker. He couldn't take the horror the world had unleashed upon him, so he ran away like Bruce did. He became a stronger personality, it didn't necessarily have to be the Joker, but that's who surfaced. He surfaced for two reasons as well: 1) The lack of control that was building up from the "incident" which we don't know about. Even this wasn't enough to create the Joker COMPLETELY. 2) Fell in the vat and saw his face all purtied up like a....Clown, or more....A Joker. That was HIS true motivation.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
as twisted as batman is, and as absurd as his "relationship" with the joker is, i feel his bond with the gordons should have somehow come into play in a more "realistic" undertone.
But his relationship with the Gordons does come into play.
I honestly believe he's headed into that funhouse to kill Joker for what he did to Barbara and Jim. That was the point he was making at the beginning: he went to Arkham to basically tell Joker there weren't going to be anymore chances. That if pushed to far, Batman would kill Joker, unless Joker killed Batman first.
It's Gordon who stops him, who tells him that it's up to them to show Joker that their way is better. That a bad day won't push just anyone over the edge.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
quote:
Originally posted by KMT:
Loeb killed Superman. Dini is like one of three people (Donner and Puzo being the others) who's ever really gotten Superman right.
the important phrase to add, here, is "to you." i find that both of them gave superman and batman a wonderfully human quality i've not seen equalled, and one that i find necessary to an enjoyable character.
Actually, if you stick any issue of Jeph Loeb's Superman run under an electron microscope, you can see it sucks right down to the subatomic level.
It's a fact.
Loeb's Superman is everything that Superman shouldn't be. He's weak. Not physically, mind you, but down deep where it counts. He doesn't have the courage of his convictions. He doesn't have what it takes to be a hero.
His biggest concern in life is how people view him. He's always worried that if he speaks his mind and does what needs to be done, people will resent him for it. He isn't willing to make tough choices.
And, when those choices are made for him, he bemoans his fate.
In short, he's a fucking pussy.
There is nothing admirable about him. He would, in fact, be despicable if he wasn't so damn pathetic.
This is Jeph Loeb's fault.
Loeb looks at Superman and sees the same problems that everyone else at DC does. Superman's the kind of guy who can move the earth from it's orbit if a meteor the size of Texas is about to slam into the eastern seaboard.
He's basically a God.
How do you make someone like that interesting? How do you make him relateable to readers?
Loeb's solution is to bring him down to our level.
He made Superman's life mundane.
He doesn't understand that Superman is an iconic character. Superman is someone who should inspire us. We should want to be just like Superman.
Can anyone here honestly say they'd want to be Loeb's Superman for a day?
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quote:
Originally posted by KMT:
Actually, if you stick any issue of Jeph Loeb's Superman run under an electron microscope, you can see it sucks right down to the subatomic level.
It's a fact.
LOL! :lol: Awesome! This goes on my sig list.
Loeb's Superman is everything that Superman shouldn't be. He's weak. Not physically, mind you, but down deep where it counts. He doesn't have the courage of his convictions. He doesn't have what it takes to be a hero.
His biggest concern in life is how people view him. He's always worried that if he speaks his mind and does what needs to be done, people will resent him for it. He isn't willing to make tough choices.
And, when those choices are made for him, he bemoans his fate.
In short, he's a fucking pussy.
Loeb's influence on Smallville, as well.
Can anyone here honestly say they'd want to be Loeb's Superman for a day?
I want to be Grant Morrison's Superman for a day! ![[biiiig grin]](images/icons/grin.gif)
"This is the guy that said he could never live up to his own myth......he's wrestling an angel!"
-Wally West,
Fastest Man Alive
JLA #5
![[wink]](images/icons/wink.gif)
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I'm not a huge fan of Loeb's, but he's done some good works. The Halloween books were pretty good (I could have done without Dark Victory, though).
I pick up an issue of a random Superman comic once a year, and any of Loeb's never did anything for me.
Hush was shit.
Superman/Batman # 1 was shit.
However, his Challengers of The Unknown 8 issue mini from the early 90s is easily one of the best written comics I've ever read. That comic defines to me that ANY comic concept or character can be made to be something better than fantastic. Seriously, this comic was art for art's sake. I hold this in almost the same regard I have for Milligan's Enigma, Shade the Changing Man, or Morrison's Invisibles.
As for Batman, I like Batman to be somewhat of a jerk. Yeah, he needs to be human, he needs to not be an unemotional robot, but he also needs to have the depth and darkness that's been assigned to him as well. And he needs to be a prick. He deserves to be a prick. He's trained himself to be a super man, while Superman just happened. Whoops, the sun makes me strong. Batman should just convince Superman to commit suicide, since he is pretty much just a useless goofball.
My opinion, obviously.
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What makes Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow such a good story? I read it and found it kinda tedious and boring.
Everyone seems to crawled up Alan Moore's ass that they can't seem to judge his stuff as anything less than amazing. I have never read anything that he wrote that I liked. So I am wonderring what exactly am I missing about these "classic" works that make them so good?
Please give this idiot a hand.
SMS
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I think you were given enough warrant for liking Moore's work on Batman from the posts up top. Everything else I nevr bothered to note, except for Watchmen.
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quote:
Originally posted by AX Knight:
What makes Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow such a good story? I read it and found it kinda tedious and boring.
Everyone seems to crawled up Alan Moore's ass that they can't seem to judge his stuff as anything less than amazing. I have never read anything that he wrote that I liked. So I am wonderring what exactly am I missing about these "classic" works that make them so good?
Please give this idiot a hand.
SMS
Who said you were "missing" something? Maybe his work just isn't for you.
I find his work to be unique, interesting, insightful, heartfelt, and well executed. I find his characters believable, his dialogue clever, his narrative poetically descriptive, and his story-telling style thought provoking. I can't think of another comic writer(perhaps not even another writer, period) that demonstrates his range of genre and character. There are very, very few writers(probably only two, Kurt Vonnegut being the other) that seemingly never fail to entertain me, but Alan Moore is one such person. That doesn't mean you or anyone else has to like him, it just means I do.
If I do "crawl up his ass", it's because I respect him as both a writer and as a human being. I admire him, and I think he deserves every bit of praise he's received. Some of his stuff isn't as good as the rest, but overall, I've simply never been let down or dissapointed in something I've read by him. Then again, I've also yet to read the Violator series he did that was apparently terrible.
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quote:
Originally posted by Sacman:
Three of my favorite stories from him are Y2K, President Lex, and Emperor Joker.
Emperor Joker was the bomb diggity yo, but in my opinion it was Joe Kelly's portions of that story that really made it shine.
"Why is there a dead Batman clinging to Uranus?!?"
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quote:
Originally posted by KMT:
You're missing out. Dark Knight Returns isn't just the greatest Batman story ever told. It's the greatest superhero story ever told.
Uh... Hello? Kingdom Come? KC beats DKR like a red-headed step-child hands down!
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I wouldn't say that. Kingdom Come didn't actually focus as much on what makes a PERSON a hero as DKR did. It was just saying that everyone who has powers also has responsibility (UGH! I don't read Spiderman! HONEST!)and that responsiblity was being overlooked. So, I'd say, IMO, that DKR is the best superhero story ever told while Kingdom Come is the greatest......Epic ever told. I covered tat up pretty good. ![[gulp!]](gulp.gif)
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As you might guess, Animal Man is not only my favorite superhero story, but my favorite story, period.
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quote:
Originally posted by King Snarf:
quote:
Originally posted by KMT:
You're missing out. Dark Knight Returns isn't just the greatest Batman story ever told. It's the greatest superhero story ever told.
Uh... Hello? Kingdom Come? KC beats DKR like a red-headed step-child hands down!
Yeah, except it doesn't even come close to being as good as DKR.
But that's OK.
Nothing does. :)
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quote:
Originally posted by King Snarf:
quote:
Originally posted by KMT:
You're missing out. Dark Knight Returns isn't just the greatest Batman story ever told. It's the greatest superhero story ever told.
Uh... Hello? Kingdom Come? KC beats DKR like a red-headed step-child hands down!
O Mighty Snarf, your wisdom has failed you. Kingdom Come was the wrteched spawn of Mark Waid's fanboy imagination. Already, this tripe has dated and faded from public memory. Dark Knight Returns is still celebrated.
quote:
What makes Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow such a good story? I read it and found it kinda tedious and boring.
Me too. I thought Tom Strong was pretty much the same. But most of his stuff is excellent.
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quote:
O Mighty Snarf, your wisdom has failed you. Kingdom Come was the wrteched spawn of Mark Waid's fanboy imagination. Already, this tripe has dated and faded from public memory.
Hey now! I may not like A LOT of Waid's work, but Kingdom Come goes under the minority that is cool (the other being Tower of Babel). What's your gripe with it Davey? ![[eh?]](images/icons/confused.gif)
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
O Mighty Snarf, your wisdom has failed you. Kingdom Come was the wrteched spawn of Mark Waid's fanboy imagination. Already, this tripe has dated and faded from public memory. Dark Knight Returns is still celebrated.
Wrong on two counts:
1.It was Alex Ross's idea/concept/fanboy imagation. Mark Waid just scripted it, really.
2.There was a anniversary issue commemorating it just last year, along with other classics like Watchmen and Killing Joke. That doesn't sound like something "faded from public memory" to me.
I thought Kingdom Come was a masterpiece. Something that, like Watchmen, writers have attempted to duplicate since, and failed miserably. It redefined and restored iconic yet seemingly irrelevant characters in ways no other contemporary piece of literature has. In my opinion, it was truly inspired.
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quote:
1.It was Alex Ross's idea/concept/fanboy imagation. Mark Waid just scripted it, really.
That sets my mind at ease. I didn't figure Waid could have gone from REALLY horrible to REALLY good like that.
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What's everyone got against Waid? I have no interest in his FF, or anyone's FF for that matter since the FF sucks, and Birthright is total shit, but his run on Flash was great.
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His first run on Flash was great.
I think Waid's actually one of the better American writers....which is kind of sad, but what can you do?
He had a breaking point a few years ago where he started writing half a dozen titles at once, and I haven't had much interest in his work since.
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Yeah. He's definitely peaked. And while his Flash run was great, I think Geoff Johns' run so far has been better, at least till #200. I don't know about this new story though....
Anyway, I always dug Waid. Underworld Unleashed was the bomb yo, and his Justice League stories were very well down too.
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I didn't really care for his JLA stuff much, other than Tower of Babel, which was fairly good.
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I tolerated JLA Year One well enough to be fairly entertained by it.
It was the DC "Ultimate" mini.
As in the Marvel line and not referring to myself.
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Kingdom Come was the brainchild of Ross. The only change Waid made when he scripted the issues was the removal of the preacher's family. The Kingdom, its sequel, was the brainchild of Waid. It was done despite Ross' wishes and without his input.
Kingdom Come is a work of genius and is either at or near Watchmen-level (I haven't quite decided which). The Kingdom sucked ass and made me lose faith in Waid for years.
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quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
I didn't really care for his JLA stuff much, other than Tower of Babel, which was fairly good.
I loved the Tower of Babel storyline......but now that I know you liked it I may have to reconsider.
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quote:
Originally posted by PJP:
I loved the Tower of Babel storyline......but now that I know you liked it I may have to reconsider.
Wow, I have my first stalker. I almost feel flattered.
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Anyone reading Jeph's Superman/Batman?
It's pretty funny, though unintentionally so.
They are both so obviouslly in love with each other. You can literally feel the tension as each tries to work up the nerve to tell the other how he feels. I'm betting issue 10 will feature the big kiss.
Very, very gay. And not lame-gay like Hush, but Liberace-gay or Queer Eye for the Straight Guy-gay.
Not that there's anything wrong with that :)
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Batman thinking about Superman: "He completes me." When will they stop beating around the bush and just KISS ALREADY!?!? ![[AAAHHHH!!!]](graemlins/aahhh.gif) Fuckin' Loeb. ![[...rassamnfrackin...]](graemlins/grumble01.gif)
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quote:
Originally posted by KMT:
Not that there's anything wrong with that :)
"Not at all!"
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quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
quote:
Originally posted by PJP:
I loved the Tower of Babel storyline......but now that I know you liked it I may have to reconsider.
Wow, I have my first stalker. I almost feel flattered.
You should be flattered.
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n'here's a hulk:gray wallpaper i madeded: 
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we've already discussed this.
you suck rob.
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
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The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 8,462
1. You do not talk about snarf. 7500+ posts
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1. You do not talk about snarf. 7500+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 8,462 |
Me No Rikey Rob, he's a banana queer!
I shit on Hogan!
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,289
2000+ posts
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2000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,289 |
Boys boys boys. Rob will be more than happy for you all to suck him.
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