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quote:
Hal died a psychopathic mass murderer.
We already covered this. His sacrifice in giving up his life to reignite the sun redeemed him.
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Most people don't remember that when they think of Hal Jordan's death.
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Most people may not, but I would expect a nitpicker of your caliber to. ![[wink]](images/icons/wink.gif)
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quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
This is one of the reasons the Spectre exists, he's a "redeemer".
I thought the Spectre was God's hand of wrath. At least, that's what I've read over the years, anyway.
Most people don't remember that when they think of Hal Jordan's death.
But, are we debating memories or historical facts?
Nothing directed at you, Animalman, but I've had some observations about the Kyle/Hal fandom.
I've noticed, when it comes to the character of Jordan, that many skew the facts with their childhood love. The memories, or perceptions of their childhood hero is, in their mind, a great, legendary character that shines as the golden boy of heroism and courage. And, while Jordan may have been all those things, he was also terribly flawed. This is the part, as I've observed, that most people tend to either forget, or ignore, about the character.
To me, Jordan had the most willpower of any person, let alone a Corp member, in the entire realm of comic book fiction. He was a man that could, and would, absolutely overcome any obstacle to his mission, or, what he believed to be the right thing.
Thus, I found his final breakdown to be, not only his most severe, but, his most logical. He had always given up the ring whenever he needed to overcome personal issues in his life. But, now his life had become a crushing tragedy again. He had tried overcoming the obstacles in his life during his last two breakdowns without the ring.
And yet, tragedy had come back around again.
This time it was going to be different. This time he would use the power he was given...to overcome ALL obstacles...to complete his intended goal. To do what he thought was right. Instead of shrinking down into "whiny Hal", he uber-ed out into Paralax.
Was it pretty? Absolutely not. But, it was logical. It was understandable. And, whether I like it or not, there was a profound and realized method to his madness.
Just some thoughts. :)
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quote:
Nothing directed at you, Animalman, but I've had some observations about the Kyle/Hal fandom.
I've noticed, when it comes to the character of Jordan, that many skew the facts with their childhood love. The memories, or perceptions of their childhood hero is, in their mind, a great, legendary character that shines as the golden boy of heroism and courage. And, while Jordan may have been all those things, he was also terribly flawed. This is the part, as I've observed, that most people tend to either forget, or ignore, about the character.
To me, Jordan had the most willpower of any person, let alone a Corp member, in the entire realm of comic book fiction. He was a man that could, and would, absolutely overcome any obstacle to his mission, or, what he believed to be the right thing.
Thus, I found his final breakdown to be, not only his most severe, but, his most logical. He had always given up the ring whenever he needed to overcome personal issues in his life. But, now his life had become a crushing tragedy again. He had tried overcoming the obstacles in his life during his last two breakdowns without the ring.
And yet, tragedy had come back around again.
This time it was going to be different. This time he would use the power he was given...to overcome ALL obstacles...to complete his intended goal. To do what he thought was right. Instead of shrinking down into "whiny Hal", he uber-ed out into Paralax.
Was it pretty? Absolutely not. But, it was logical. It was understandable. And, whether I like it or not, there was a profound and realized method to his madness.
That's a pretty interesting hypothesis Prometheus. Hal Jordan finally "cracking" after having to overcome too many obstacles in his life does sound pretty reasonable, but I still think you're giving Marz too much credit.
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quote:
Nothing directed at you, Animalman, but I've had some observations about the Kyle/Hal fandom.
I've noticed, when it comes to the character of Jordan, that many skew the facts with their childhood love. The memories, or perceptions of their childhood hero is, in their mind, a great, legendary character that shines as the golden boy of heroism and courage. And, while Jordan may have been all those things, he was also terribly flawed. This is the part, as I've observed, that most people tend to either forget, or ignore, about the character.
To me, Jordan had the most willpower of any person, let alone a Corp member, in the entire realm of comic book fiction. He was a man that could, and would, absolutely overcome any obstacle to his mission, or, what he believed to be the right thing.
Thus, I found his final breakdown to be, not only his most severe, but, his most logical. He had always given up the ring whenever he needed to overcome personal issues in his life. But, now his life had become a crushing tragedy again. He had tried overcoming the obstacles in his life during his last two breakdowns without the ring.
And yet, tragedy had come back around again.
This time it was going to be different. This time he would use the power he was given...to overcome ALL obstacles...to complete his intended goal. To do what he thought was right. Instead of shrinking down into "whiny Hal", he uber-ed out into Paralax.
Was it pretty? Absolutely not. But, it was logical. It was understandable. And, whether I like it or not, there was a profound and realized method to his madness.
That's a pretty interesting hypothesis Prometheus. Hal Jordan finally "cracking" after having to overcome too many obstacles in his life does sound pretty reasonable, but I still think you're giving Marz too much credit.
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quote:
Originally posted by Prometheus:
I thought the Spectre was God's hand of wrath. At least, that's what I've read over the years, anyway.
Notice I said "one of the reasons", not "the reason".
quote:
But, are we debating memories or historical facts?
Historical importance is decided by how it's remembered.
quote:
I've noticed, when it comes to the character of Jordan, that many skew the facts with their childhood love.
Well, in my case, I'm not trying to skew the facts, because we're not discussing facts. We're discussing legacy, interpretation.
Now, honestly, when the topic of Hal Jordan's demise(and the events leading up to it) is brought up, what is discussed, Hal Jordan reigniting the sun, or Hal Jordan going insane and killing other Green Lanterns?
Hal Jordan is looked at and considered a disgrace, a traitor, a sad story. Not a hero. It's brought up in Green Lantern, in Spectre, and even in JLA.
quote:
And, while Jordan may have been all those things, he was also terribly flawed. This is the part, as I've observed, that most people tend to either forget, or ignore, about the character.
Doesn't this contradict what you say above, though?
I think the uber-Hal lovers may ignore this, but most people don't. The writers certainly don't(as it's reflected in the way the characters talk about him).
I think back to one of Waid's issue of JLA, at the end of the Tower of Babel storyline. The members are discussing Batman's status and whether or not he should be kicked out, and, for some reason(I forget why), Kyle brings up Hal and the response he gets is basically "don't bring him up, you're not like him, you're better than he was."
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quote:
Pro: I thought the Spectre was God's hand of wrath. At least, that's what I've read over the years, anyway.
The Spectre was God's Wrath. But under DeMatties, Hal/Spectre has become "the spirit of redemption" or somesuch. Ugh. ![[no no no]](graemlins/nono.gif) Hal/Spectre, two great tastes that taste shitty together.
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quote:
Originally posted by Grimm:
The Spectre was God's Wrath. But under DeMatties, Hal/Spectre has become "the spirit of redemption" or somesuch. Ugh. Hal/Spectre, two great tastes that taste shitty together.
LOL! :lol:
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See, first we have to look at what powers the Power Ring. It's been said it's will power, but it can't be only that and I've always disagreed with DC's notion that willpower alone is needed. (And I suppose the term "willpower" needs to be defined.) It's also the abiltiy to manipulate the energies within the ring as well.
Hal was always a very determined, egotisical indvidual. These qualities made him a solid pilot. Kyle has been shown to be the same as a freelance artist. He's willing to pound the streets for work and do what it takes to get an assignment. I'd say for "willpower" they're pretty equal.
But the ring can take thoughts and make them a reality, and I think that gives Kyle an edge on Hal. But Hal is without fear. Does this give him an advantage?
For me, it's like looking at what makes a succesful race car driver. Is it having a lead foot, or the skill behind the wheel? I equate Hal as the one with the lead foot, and why he eventually lead the Corps to their downfall. And if it wasn't him, it would have been someone like Kilowog, Katma Tui, Salaak or another GL. It was more a flaw in the Guardians selection process moreso than anything else. That's why Sinestro came to be.
But it's water under the emerald bridge at this point. Something interesting happened to me on the Geoff Johns boards though. We had a very good, very intelligent thread going on this very subject, and it was discussed how the rumor is that Geoff himself is a candidate for the book, and after a few days the thread got deleted. Interesting.....
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quote:
This time it was going to be different. This time he would use the power he was given...to overcome ALL obstacles...to complete his intended goal. To do what he thought was right. Instead of shrinking down into "whiny Hal", he uber-ed out into Paralax.
Was it pretty? Absolutely not. But, it was logical. It was understandable. And, whether I like it or not, there was a profound and realized method to his madness.
Very nice spin on things. For someone without fear and reliant on willpower, the crisis-fueled progression to ruthlessness and utter determination does seem natural.
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quote:
Originally posted by jafabian:
Hal was always a very determined, egotisical indvidual. These qualities made him a solid pilot. Kyle has been shown to be the same as a freelance artist. He's willing to pound the streets for work and do what it takes to get an assignment. I'd say for "willpower" they're pretty equal.
"Pound the streets"? He was an artist! He probably never did a hard day's work in his entire life.
Hal was physically and mentally molded to perform in intense situations(battle). Kyle was a normal Joe. He had no such training. He had no experience being fired upon. He had no comprehension of what it was like to have another person try to actually kill you. Hal did.
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Well, having graduated from art school and having BEEN a freelance artist and having POUNDED THE STREETS for work, I know what it's like. It isn't easy. If you want an income, you gotta go out there and get it. It takes WILLPOWER. And in Alan Moore's Tales of the GL Corps he showed GL's in all sorts of backgrounds. Not just soldiers or, like Hal, former soldiers.
I'm just saying that Kyle has been shown to be pretty comparable to Hal in that department.
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Um, what? Exsqueeze me? Hal was a TEST PILOT, not a soldier.
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Yeah, I thought Hal was a Test Pilot....???
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He was in the Air Force before becoming a test pilot. quote:
Originally posted by jafabian:
Well, having graduated from art school and having BEEN a freelance artist and having POUNDED THE STREETS for work, I know what it's like. It isn't easy. If you want an income, you gotta go out there and get it. It takes WILLPOWER.
I'm not saying it isn't easy....but let's be honest; it doesn't require nearly as much willpower as Hal's occupation did.
Besides, you might be a driven person, but Kyle was a slacker, and Hal was a very determined individual, almost to a fault.
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quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
I'm not saying it isn't easy....but let's be honest; it doesn't require nearly as much willpower as Hal's occupation did.
Okay, Animalman. I've taken 99.9% of your comments on this board as extremely motivated by personal opinions, and a need to live up to the so-called "nitpicker" label that you have embraced. But, these statements are not only inaccurate, but expose you as a condescending ass.
The term "willpower" is used to describe the personal motivation that allows a person to endure through obstacles and adversity.
Pilots have skill. And courage. And a fearlessness that allows them to accomplish their intended goals.
Artists have skill, as well. And imagination. And an ability to create three-dimensional images on a two-dimensional surface.
Comparing these two occupations is like comparing porn stars and the U.N. ambassador to Malaysia. The two have absolutely zero relation.
To classify art, and the occupation found therein, as something less than it is, JUST to make an inaccurate point about two comic characters is not only petty and simple-minded, but, is an insult to all artists, and gives the impression that you are a complete ass.
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Um. No. I think he makes a fair point. I'm neither an artist nor a test pilot. But I think it takes a lot more nouse, discipline and courage to be a test pilot than a commercial artist.
If this translates to the qualification to be a Green Lantern, then I think the test pilot beats the artist.
But then, why a test pilot? Why not a judge, a selfless welfare worker, a prosecutor, a priest? Aren't people in these professions better qualified to be a space cop wielding unlimited power?
The only answer is that a test pilot was a glamourous choice back in the 1950s. Why they chose an artist in the 1990s, though, I don't know.
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quote:
Originally posted by Prometheus:
Okay, Animalman. I've taken 99.9% of your comments on this board as extremely motivated by personal opinions, and a need to live up to the so-called "nitpicker" label that you have embraced. But, these statements are not only inaccurate, but expose you as a condescending ass.
....?
If I've somehow offended you, Pro, I apologize; that certainly wasn't my intention. I do have my own opinions, and I do stand by them quite adamantly, but I'd also like to think I can respect other points of view(I certainly respect yours, for they're often well put). As for the "nitpicker" thing, usually I try and avoid things that don't pertain to the conversation. My perpetuating the joke is all in jest, I feel over the years I've gotten to know you guys well, and I genuinely enjoy these discussions. It's just good fun, for me.
quote:
The term "willpower" is used to describe the personal motivation that allows a person to endure through obstacles and adversity.
Pilots have skill. And courage. And a fearlessness that allows them to accomplish their intended goals.
Artists have skill, as well. And imagination. And an ability to create three-dimensional images on a two-dimensional surface.
Comparing these two occupations is like comparing porn stars and the U.N. ambassador to Malaysia. The two have absolutely zero relation.
Oh, I agree. I think they're usually two completely different types of people, each with their own unique traits. I respect artists, and wasn't trying to put them down, but, in my opinion, willpower is trait more commonly found with pilots than with artists.
quote:
To classify art, and the occupation found therein, as something less than it is, JUST to make an inaccurate point about two comic characters is not only petty and simple-minded, but, is an insult to all artists, and gives the impression that you are a complete ass.
I'm not sure what you mean. What was I classifying art as?
As I said above, I definitely wasn't trying to insult artists, and I apologize if that's how I came off.
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
Um. No. I think he makes a fair point. I'm neither an artist nor a test pilot. But I think it takes a lot more nouse, discipline and courage to be a test pilot than a commercial artist.
If this translates to the qualification to be a Green Lantern, then I think the test pilot beats the artist.
But then, why a test pilot? Why not a judge, a selfless welfare worker, a prosecutor, a priest? Aren't people in these professions better qualified to be a space cop wielding unlimited power?
The only answer is that a test pilot was a glamourous choice back in the 1950s. Why they chose an artist in the 1990s, though, I don't know.
It was to make Kyle Rayner more "relatable" to the teenage fanboy and his fantasies. That's also why Marz also wrote all that raunchy sex with Jade.
The problem I have with Emerald Twilight is the fact that they made Hal "snap", when he has overcome every obstacle in his life through sheer will, lack of fear, and experience. He's overcome a nervous breakdown, his own personal feelings for Carol Ferris everytime he fought Star Sapphire, a serious drinking problem, the weight of being responsible for a friends injury and the subsequent reprecussions of it before becoming a full fledged Green Lantern, and an amazing number of other obstacles throughout his Green Lantern career. His "snapping" just doesn't make sense to me and the fact that he killed so many people before his "sacrifice" still bothers me.
But Prometheus did come up with a pretty plausable explanation earlier that I kinda like. Still doesn't make me feel any different about Hal murdering all those people though.
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Marz himself has stated he felt he didn't establish Hal's descent very well, but that the editors only gave him a few issues to deptict his depression. He's very much aware that it didn't come across very well, but issue #50 was supposed to be Kyle's debut and so he had only about five or so issues to show Hal's fall from grace.
But if Morrison IS to come on board to the book, then I'm gonna bandwagon on that one big time. He's the only writer to really grasp what exactly what Kyle brings to the role rather than what's been missing from GL with Hal gone. I know Geoff Johns has submitted a proposal though, and he's stated on his boards he'd bring Hal back if he could. I'm anxious to see how it all turns out.
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I'd be interested to see what Morrison would do, though my personal preference would be to have a character other than Kyle Rayner star as Green Lantern.
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
Um. No. I think he makes a fair point. I'm neither an artist nor a test pilot. But I think it takes a lot more nouse, discipline and courage to be a test pilot than a commercial artist.
You have to understand what a commerical artist goes thru though, and they don't show that with Kyle as much as they could in order to give the reader more of GL. (Not that it's a problem though...)
First off, a commericial artist is typically freelance. It absoulutely SUCKS to be freelance. You're living paycheck-by-paycheck. You have no medical benefits, no union, no 401K. Because you're freelance you're employer holds it over your head EVERY DAY. They remind you of it and treat you like shit for no reason because THEY CAN. And if you don't like it, they can find some 18 year old to do the same job for cheaper. This is why so many comic book writers and artists jump on the "exclusive" contracts. It gives them a relatively guaranteed income for a few years. Helps when you wanna buy a house.
By the same token, their work can be responsible for generating MILLIONS of dollars. And a lot of times you have a completely unrseasonalble deadline. Look at the label of Campbell's Soup cans for example. A commerical artist created that. It's universally recognized. If you didn't see that label on the grocery shelf while looking for soup, you most likely wouldn't but it. Therefore the company is very reliant on their product representation thanks to a commercial artist.
And a lot of times an artist will stand up to a corporations board of directors on a paticular issue. They can present a piece and maybe be this twentysomething dressed in a pair of Dockers and a Old Navy polo because it's the best clothes they can afford and they're in front of a board of directors who are all over 50 years old, make millions of dollars and are in three piece suits and they slice apart your work in front of you and make suggestions that are completely ingnorance-based. And you stand up to them for integrity of your work. To me, THAT'S willpower.
Not that they've ever shown that in GL though. They should. It would much better define Kyle's character, IMO.
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quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
I'd be interested to see what Morrison would do, though my personal preference would be to have a character other than Kyle Rayner star as Green Lantern.
But I doubt the editorialship would go for that. Another character change so soon after replacing Hal would most likely makes sales drop even more. It would be regulated to a back up in Flash again.
Maybe it would herald the return of Itty though.
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quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
If I've somehow offended you, Pro, I apologize; that certainly wasn't my intention. I do have my own opinions, and I do stand by them quite adamantly, but I'd also like to think I can respect other points of view(I certainly respect yours, for they're often well put). As for the "nitpicker" thing, usually I try and avoid things that don't pertain to the conversation. My perpetuating the joke is all in jest, I feel over the years I've gotten to know you guys well, and I genuinely enjoy these discussions. It's just good fun, for me.
Thank you, Animalman. Perhaps I misread your intentions. If so, then I apologize. And, as you are man enough to react in such a mature manner, I have to admit, I might have overeacted a bit.
So, all's clear. We're good. Thanks. :)
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Ah, cool.
Kyle or no Kyle, it's still Morrison! That's usually good news, for me.
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quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Kyle or no Kyle, it's still Morrison! That's usually good news, for me.
Agreed. I really don't care who they use, as long as I get a fresh Morrison-GL story...
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Maybe the JLA will guest star!!!
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quote:
Originally posted by jafabian:
Maybe the JLA will guest star!!!
Don't tease me like that...
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I have a feeling anything Morrison does with DC will be golden. His Marvel work was "eh" at best. Animalman was good, JLA was great, Marvel Boy wasn't bad, and New X-Men is okay. He just doesn't seem to like the Marvel characters as much as the DC.
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Animalman is the fucking shit.
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Thanks, Mxy, you're not so bad yourself. :)
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quote:
Marvel Boy wasn't bad
One of the worst things I've ever read. Couldn't believe the same guy who did Kid Eternity did this tripe.
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Apples and oranges. Completely different kinds of stories.
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He tastes of America 15000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 18,080 |
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 194
100+ posts
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100+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 194 |
So we'll see Jordan bending Pieface over an engine housing and sodomising him roughly quite soon then?
Let joy be unconfined.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 33,385 Likes: 3
Regenerated 15000+ posts
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Regenerated 15000+ posts
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 33,385 Likes: 3 |
quote:
Originally posted by D. McDonagh:
So we'll see Jordan bending Pieface over an engine housing and sodomising him roughly quite soon then?
Let joy be unconfined.
I think you're mistaking Morrison for Mark Millar...
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,546 Likes: 1
living in 1962 15000+ posts
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living in 1962 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,546 Likes: 1 |
quote:
Originally posted by Prometheus:
quote:
Originally posted by D. McDonagh:
So we'll see Jordan bending Pieface over an engine housing and sodomising him roughly quite soon then?
Let joy be unconfined.
I think you're mistaking Morrison for Mark Millar...
Unless Morrie indulges his transvestite fetish. ![[nyah hah]](images/icons/tongue.gif)
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