|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,978
1500+ posts
|
|
1500+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,978 |
I bought The Ultimates TPB about a month ago; I'm still not sure exactly why I bought it because I have pretty low expectations of anything that Marvel puts out.
The first time I read it, I was astonished by how good it was. I really got drawn into it and now that the dust has settled, I still think it's the best example of its genre that I've read in ages. It makes a lot of the stuff Vertigo and Wildstorm are currently putting on the shelves look like second rate hackwork.
Compare The Ultimates to recent issues of The Authority, it's nearest rival - intitially an intelligent and thought provoking comic that ran out of fresh ideas a long time ago and whose continued existance, I can only assume, is to bring in money for other projects.
Or look at The Ultimates as a attempt to breathe fresh life into tired old characters and then compare it with Grant Morrison's utterly dull and unimaginative New X Men.
One of the strengths of this series, for me, is the characterisation. Millar wrote the first six issues (included in the TPB) and built a compelling narrative, based purely on the relationships between the characters.
At the conclusion of #6, The Ultimate's haven't actually fought anyone (apart from each other). I found the way the argument between Hank Pym and wasp, began as a playful spat and then rapidly degenerated into something much nastier, extremely disturbing. The fact that you could sense that the whole thing was going to turn nasty, before it did, made it even more unsettling. I couldn't believe I was reading it in a mainstream comic.
I've seen attempts to portray domestic violence in comics before and it generally comes off looking rather unrealistic or staged, like the writers have slipped into cliche mode.
Dave,
It's weird that you bring up Captain America and the American flag, because that was the one part of the Ultimates that really jarred for me; I have to agree with your wife on this one - pure cornball patriotism. Reading that against the backdrop of current world events actually made me quite angry. It's also amusing that in recent issues of Stormwatch there's been a character called 'Citizen Soldier' who is clearly modelled on Captain America, and who has become so appalled by the corruption of American values that he has risen up against his own country.
I wonder if my enjoyment of this title isn't down to the fact that I know very little about the Marvel universe and hardly anything about the original characters. I'm also completely unaware of the arguments and the controversy that may have flared up around The Ultimates. My knowledge of Publisher and Fan-based politics is minimal and actually I'd like to keep it that way. I understand, Millar is thought to be a bit of wanker and that may be true but he's still a fucking good writer if he can come up with an intelligent, mainstream comic like this.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
|
|
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13 |
bw7, I suspect that part of my enjoyment of the title was my almost total lack of knowledge of the regular series. I was able to approach it with a newcomer's perpective. On the flag and patriotism issue, I think if it had been anyone else save Cap, it would have jarred me too. But's he's a product of the 1940s cast into the next century, not unlike the new patriotism of the neo-cons in the current administration. He'll be interesting to watch, because I wonder just how far he'll go in the name of patriotism. quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
Have you seen Dangerous Liasons? Malkovich's character was manipulative, grubby and without any merit (until the end). The character was still astonishingly enjoyable to watch.
What about Rorshcach? A brutal psychotic murderer. Yet his characerisation was fascinating.
Well, I wasn't asking if you found the characterization interesting. I was asking if he bothered you.
The motivations of the above were well explained/described/illustrated, and presented in a thought-provoking manner. I didn't find this to be the case with Pym.
Pym is just a nasty piece of work, but even then, he demonstrated intense remorse for his actions. That's more characterisation than you'd get in the JLA. If you stuck him in the regular Marvel continuity he'd be a "villain". Instead, he's a "hero". Really, he's neither, just as most people are neither.
quote:
quote:
I detest Pym above all the rest
Right, so, he bothers you(in that sense), right?
quote:
He's hardly a role model, but the book isn't about role models. Its about a selection of humanity which has superpowers.
I wouldn't use the word "humanity" in any description of this book, for I believe it is far from it.
I disagree. The world isn't composed of the noble and the great. Its a mixed of ratbags and rogues. That's what we've got here.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
10000+ posts
|
|
10000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896 |
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
I disagree. The world isn't composed of the noble and the great. Its a mixed of ratbags and rogues. That's what we've got here.
A very wise man once said "People are stupid. Individuals are smart."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
|
|
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13 |
One of the more intrgiuing things about the characters is that they're all very smart people, who seem to have a lot of trouble dealing with each other. Highly intelligent individual are prone to egomania, eccentricty and dysfunctional interpersonal skills. If Millar intended this, its a keen insight.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
10000+ posts
|
|
10000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896 |
Powerful, perhaps, "highly intelligent", no. Truly intelligent people know how to resolve conflicts peacefully and with maturity.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
|
|
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13 |
quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Powerful, perhaps, "highly intelligent", no. Truly intelligent people know how to resolve conflicts peacefully and with maturity.
You haven't spent enough time in law firms and in boardrooms.
I blame superheros for this gross and offensive idealism! Now if you'll excuse me I'm off to plunder another third world rainforest.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
10000+ posts
|
|
10000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896 |
Mars Attacks shows us that highly advanced beings naturally gravitate towards peaceful existence! Tim Burton never lies!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 308
300+ posts
|
|
300+ posts
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 308 |
Animalman, all kidding aside, if there are extraterrestrial societies, and if the extraterrestrials who make up these societies are biological entities with something like DNA, and if the law of survival of the fittest governs the transfer of this genetic information, I think stratification and belligerence are pretty much guaranteed traits. Pax, perhaps, but Pax Romana.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
10000+ posts
|
|
10000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896 |
I think that a species possessing the technological advances necessary to conquer intergalactic travel would also possess the social awareness needed to see that survival can be attained mutually.
The problem with the world(and by this I mean our world) is that it's too tightly packed in. Too many clashing cultures and races. Diversity is certainly an admirable thing to strive for, but it has to be contained. If you compare the crime rates in countries like Japan to the crime rate in the United States(or other countries of similar diversity), the difference is astounding. Civilizations need to be more condensed and spread out; something that can be easily achieved when you have an entire galaxy that's acessible(due to aforementioned space-travel advances), rather than just one planet.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
|
|
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13 |
quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
I think that a species possessing the technological advances necessary to conquer intergalactic travel would also possess the social awareness needed to see that survival can be attained mutually.
The problem with the world(and by this I mean our world) is that it's too tightly packed in. Too many clashing cultures and races. Diversity is certainly an admirable thing to strive for, but it has to be contained. If you compare the crime rates in countries like Japan to the crime rate in the United States(or other countries of similar diversity), the difference is astounding. Civilizations need to be more condensed and spread out; something that can be easily achieved when you have an entire galaxy that's acessible(due to aforementioned space-travel advances), rather than just one planet.
Japan is a really bad example, Annie. Low crime rate, sure, but belligerently set out to conquer Far East Asia. Only when they had the crap knocked out of them with nukes and famine did they fall into line as a peaceful world citizen.
Human history shows us that when cultures have met, they've clashed, often until one is annihiliated. See the Mayans, Australian Aborigines, the kingdoms of the sub-Saharan. Marc mentions Pax Romana, and how about Rome and Carthage? Fierce competitors, until Rome finally won and salted the earth of Carthage so nothing would ever grow there again.
Prospects of survival are often enhanced by cooperation, but this is generally within groupings, not between groupings.
Aliens are not likely to be friendly.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 23,091
The Once, and Future Cunt 15000+ posts
|
|
The Once, and Future Cunt 15000+ posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 23,091 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
|
|
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13 |
I think its one of two reasonbly good reason to have a orbital platform of nuclear weapons (the other being an asteroid shield).
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
10000+ posts
|
|
10000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896 |
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
Japan is a really bad example, Annie. Low crime rate, sure, but belligerently set out to conquer Far East Asia.
Decades ago, yes.
The comparison was only provided to show how a society can exist peacefully(internally), even in our barbaric and unadvanced state.
Apply the concept to a far more advanced species, as I mentioned above, and, in my opinion, the results would be different.
quote:
Human history shows us that when cultures have met, they've clashed, often until one is annihiliated. See the Mayans, Australian Aborigines, the kingdoms of the sub-Saharan. Marc mentions Pax Romana, and how about Rome and Carthage? Fierce competitors, until Rome finally won and salted the earth of Carthage so nothing would ever grow there again.
Human history, certainly.
But we aren't talking about humans, are we?
We can't apply human traits and characteristics to something(or somethings) decidely non-human. Assuming that our flaws are universal is naive; perhaps even somewhat pretentious.
quote:
Aliens are not likely to be friendly.
You could very well be right. I hope you're not.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
10000+ posts
|
|
10000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896 |
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
I think its one of two reasonbly good reason to have a orbital platform of nuclear weapons (the other being an asteroid shield).
I just want a 'beam me up scotty' energizer thingy.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
|
|
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13 |
quote:
Decades ago, yes.
The comparison was only provided to show how a society can exist peacefully(internally), even in our barbaric and unadvanced state.
When the internally peaceful, advanced super-panthers come in their flying saucers to eat us because the smell of cooking human flesh is irresistible, I'll remind you of this.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 37
25+ posts
|
|
25+ posts
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 37 |
I think it's unlikely that space aliens, if they exist, would come as conquerors. For one thing, with the whole universe to roam, what would a two-bit planet like ours have to offer anyone. I do see two trouble areas. One, they might be interested in studying us, and they might hurt us by accident just as we might step on an ant. Two, they might have a vested interest in keeping us out of space. As long as we lack FTL drive, we're no possible threat to them, but if we develop FTL without controlling our natural savagery we COULD be a major annoyance.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
|
|
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13 |
quote:
Originally posted by DuplicateMan:
I think it's unlikely that space aliens, if they exist, would come as conquerors. For one thing, with the whole universe to roam, what would a two-bit planet like ours have to offer anyone. I do see two trouble areas. One, they might be interested in studying us, and they might hurt us by accident just as we might step on an ant. Two, they might have a vested interest in keeping us out of space. As long as we lack FTL drive, we're no possible threat to them, but if we develop FTL without controlling our natural savagery we COULD be a major annoyance.
Two bit planets around stable stars in that little strip called a Life Zone, replete with technologically advanced-ish life might be precious commodity.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 37
25+ posts
|
|
25+ posts
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 37 |
It's a big universe. Planets capable of supporting life may be quite common. We're just too primitive to find them. And WHY would they have any interest? Compared to someone capable of FTL travel, our tech isn't much different from a caveman's. Robots would make far better "slaves" than willful humans. I suppose there COULD be some unique mineral that only exists on Earth, but more likely not.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
10000+ posts
|
|
10000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896 |
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
When the internally peaceful, advanced super-panthers come in their flying saucers to eat us because the smell of cooking human flesh is irresistible, I'll remind you of this.
They'll probably eat you lawyers first.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 308
300+ posts
|
|
300+ posts
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 308 |
Animalman and DuplicateMan, my wife gives me the same arguments all the time. I don't think I'm making a bad assumption, though. These aren't just human foibles but behavior we see in every form of life with DNA (i.e., all known life). It lives at the expense of other things, multiplies as far and as fast and as often as it can, and consumes resources until they're gone. What looks like conservation in the natural world is actually the natural world pushing back on an upstart population. Equillibrium isn't a foregone conclusion.
I can conceive of a civilization like the kind you guys describe, but I don't think this would be the one that partakes in interstellar travel. I see this civilization as sitting around all day on an idyllic planet, contemplating the deep mysteries, and saying, "Well, that was fun," when its star finally dies out. The proposition of space travel involves a huge expenditure of resources no matter how you slice it, and biological creatures don't expend resources without expecting a return.
Look, I'm all for taking the U.S. military budget and giving it to NASA. That we aren't already on the moon and Mars and sending drillers to Europa to categorize the biolumisescent alien jellyfishes is a deep embarrassment to the Carl Sagan in me. But the most fit in our society would rather go after more practical rewards with more immediate benefits.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,546 Likes: 1
living in 1962 15000+ posts
|
|
living in 1962 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,546 Likes: 1 |
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
quote:
Decades ago, yes.
The comparison was only provided to show how a society can exist peacefully(internally), even in our barbaric and unadvanced state.
When the internally peaceful, advanced super-panthers come in their flying saucers to eat us because the smell of cooking human flesh is irresistible, I'll remind you of this.
As long as it's not the giant martian chihuahuas again. They frighten me.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,546 Likes: 1
living in 1962 15000+ posts
|
|
living in 1962 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,546 Likes: 1 |
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
quote:
Originally posted by DuplicateMan:
I think it's unlikely that space aliens, if they exist, would come as conquerors. For one thing, with the whole universe to roam, what would a two-bit planet like ours have to offer anyone. I do see two trouble areas. One, they might be interested in studying us, and they might hurt us by accident just as we might step on an ant. Two, they might have a vested interest in keeping us out of space. As long as we lack FTL drive, we're no possible threat to them, but if we develop FTL without controlling our natural savagery we COULD be a major annoyance.
Two bit planets around stable stars in that little strip called a Life Zone, replete with technologically advanced-ish life might be precious commodity.
Not if we're in the way of their planned galactic superhighway.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 37
25+ posts
|
|
25+ posts
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 37 |
quote:
Originally posted by Marc Campbell:
Animalman and DuplicateMan, my wife gives me the same arguments all the time. I don't think I'm making a bad assumption, though. These aren't just human foibles but behavior we see in every form of life with DNA (i.e., all known life). It lives at the expense of other things, multiplies as far and as fast and as often as it can, and consumes resources until they're gone. What looks like conservation in the natural world is actually the natural world pushing back on an upstart population. Equillibrium isn't a foregone conclusion.
I can conceive of a civilization like the kind you guys describe, but I don't think this would be the one that partakes in interstellar travel. I see this civilization as sitting around all day on an idyllic planet, contemplating the deep mysteries, and saying, "Well, that was fun," when its star finally dies out. The proposition of space travel involves a huge expenditure of resources no matter how you slice it, and biological creatures don't expend resources without expecting a return.
Look, I'm all for taking the U.S. military budget and giving it to NASA. That we aren't already on the moon and Mars and sending drillers to Europa to categorize the biolumisescent alien jellyfishes is a deep embarrassment to the Carl Sagan in me. But the most fit in our society would rather go after more practical rewards with more immediate benefits.
The main difference between all life that we know of (including humans) and the space aliens, is that the latter have potentially unlimited resources. Why would they mine our planet for minerals when they could get most minerals from some asteriod belt? It would hardly be worth coming to Earth for slave labor if they have totally obedient robots. I don't think space aliens are altruistic. Any species capable of making it to the top of the food-chain has to have plenty of animal toughness under their civilization. I just don't think they'd have much reason to bother with us except to study us as we study primitive cultures.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
10000+ posts
|
|
10000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896 |
quote:
Originally posted by Marc Campbell:
Animalman and DuplicateMan, my wife gives me the same arguments all the time.
...thanks, hubby.
This isn't the first time I've been compared to someone's wife.....
quote:
These aren't just human foibles but behavior we see in every form of life with DNA (i.e., all known life).
Every form of life....on Earth.
If I may tweak a Big Lebowski quote here....we have no(real) frame of reference. I guess there's two schools of thought here; one sees the trends of life on Earth and concludes that every species must share similar traits, and the other sees how isolated Earth is and concludes that the same rules can't be applied to different galaxies.
quote:
It lives at the expense of other things, multiplies as far and as fast and as often as it can, and consumes resources until they're gone.
I would contend that last attribute applies only to humans.
It's not exactly a scientific reference, but I think it's apt, nevertheless: My favorite sequence in The Matrix(the original) was the interrogation between Agent Smith and Morpheus, where Smith gives his theory of humanity's true classification. Unlike other animals, humans don't adapt to their surroundings. They assume control of them, change them, warp them, suck the resources around them dry, then move on. Like a virus.
quote:
The proposition of space travel involves a huge expenditure of resources no matter how you slice it, and biological creatures don't expend resources without expecting a return.
Possibly, but, again, we're assuming the un-assumable. We don't know how much of expenditure it would be for beings of such advanced technology.
I'll remain the idealist.
quote:
Look, I'm all for taking the U.S. military budget and giving it to NASA. That we aren't already on the moon and Mars and sending drillers to Europa to categorize the biolumisescent alien jellyfishes is a deep embarrassment to the Carl Sagan in me. But the most fit in our society would rather go after more practical rewards with more immediate benefits.
Heh, I was just about to make a Carl Sagan joke.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
|
|
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13 |
quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
When the internally peaceful, advanced super-panthers come in their flying saucers to eat us because the smell of cooking human flesh is irresistible, I'll remind you of this.
They'll probably eat you lawyers first.
We taste bad, and the super panthers are our allies.
There is something deeply Buddhist about the hope that advanced civilistions, human or alien, are altrusitic, enlightened and benign.
While I concede that humans are roughly more humane now than they've ever been, and that wars between sovereign states have petered out, humans have also killed more of each other in the last century than ever before. We're advancing, but I'm not sure to which point.
So maybe the super panthers have some zen qualities, but have weapons of mass destruction coming out of the wazoo.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
10000+ posts
|
|
10000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896 |
Zen buddhist super panthers. Hurm.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,546 Likes: 1
living in 1962 15000+ posts
|
|
living in 1962 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,546 Likes: 1 |
No one got my Douglas Adams reference. . .
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
10000+ posts
|
|
10000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896 |
It was lost in the middle of our geeky rants. I see it now.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
|
|
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13 |
quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Zen buddhist super panthers. Hurm.
Well, fuck, it is a more interesting concept that ALF.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
|
|
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13 |
quote:
Originally posted by Grimm:
No one got my Douglas Adams reference. . .
I saw it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
10000+ posts
|
|
10000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896 |
quote:
Originally posted by Dave:
Well, fuck, it is a more interesting concept that ALF.
I think it's a good idea, actually. Makes sense. My cats are very meditative. They're like ninjas.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 308
300+ posts
|
|
300+ posts
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 308 |
Any of you guys read John "The Mothman Prophecies" Keel? Very interesting take on the UFO phenomenon. I won't spoil it for ya, but pick Mothman up.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593
Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
|
|
Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593 |
quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
quote:
These aren't just human foibles but behavior we see in every form of life with DNA (i.e., all known life).
Every form of life....on Earth.
If I may tweak a Big Lebowski quote here....we have no(real) frame of reference. I guess there's two schools of thought here; one sees the trends of life on Earth and concludes that every species must share similar traits, and the other sees how isolated Earth is and concludes that the same rules can't be applied to different galaxies.
Then again, it can be a middle ground with some of the familiar and some completely alien (no pun intended) traits in creatures outside our system.
quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
quote:
It lives at the expense of other things, multiplies as far and as fast and as often as it can, and consumes resources until they're gone.
I would contend that last attribute applies only to humans.
It's not exactly a scientific reference, but I think it's apt, nevertheless: My favorite sequence in The Matrix(the original) was the interrogation between Agent Smith and Morpheus, where Smith gives his theory of humanity's true classification. Unlike other animals, humans don't adapt to their surroundings. They assume control of them, change them, warp them, suck the resources around them dry, then move on. Like a virus.
Which is one of the many things I felt was wrong with the Matrix movie. Apparently the Wack. Bros. have never heard of a beaver or a wevil or locust. Wevils and locust consume in masse and leave devistation behind. Beavers build damns and back up and redirect streams. Birds build nests. Alligators dig dens. Very few animals don't change their environments. They both adapt biologically as well as their physical surroundings to make themselves more comfortable. Just like humans have.
This arguement doesn't hold water for that reason alone. Plus, if a civilization does have interstellar flight, then it is apparent that they consume resources; and nothing is ever unlimited. So a need for more materials or even another planet with a liveable atmosphere could draw an alien culture to our little blue/green ball.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593
Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
|
|
Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593 |
Also, let us not forget that animals in the wild have shown hostility towards their own species as well as others over territory, food, and the like. There is no reason that another life form might not also have those same instincts.
There is also the matter that a species that travels across known space would have to have a damn good reason to do so. Searching for knowledge or simply to contact new life is admirable and the preferred mentality that I would like to be evident if/when it so happens. But I won't discount a desire to conquer and pillage either. Both scenarios are possible.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
10000+ posts
|
|
10000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896 |
quote:
Originally posted by thedoctor:
Which is one of the many things I felt was wrong with the Matrix movie. Apparently the Wack. Bros. have never heard of a beaver or a wevil or locust. Wevils and locust consume in masse and leave devistation behind. Beavers build damns and back up and redirect streams. Birds build nests. Alligators dig dens. Very few animals don't change their environments. They both adapt biologically as well as their physical surroundings to make themselves more comfortable. Just like humans have.
I think you're taking it a bit too literally. Yes, all animals create homes for themselves, but that's not what Smith meant by "changing their surroundings". Humans take a forest....and turn it into a parking lot. They take a field....and turn it into a mining colony. They take entire sections of their habitat and assimilate it into their society. Beavers and Alligators just use what's there to shield them, and only take what they need to survive. They leave the forests and swamps and meadows intact. They maintain the natural order.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593
Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
|
|
Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593 |
quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
I think you're taking it a bit too literally. Yes, all animals create homes for themselves, but that's not what Smith meant by "changing their surroundings". Humans take a forest....and turn it into a parking lot.
That's only because Bambi never figured out how to use a cement mixer.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 308
300+ posts
|
|
300+ posts
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 308 |
quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Beavers and Alligators just use what's there to shield them, and only take what they need to survive. They leave the forests and swamps and meadows intact. They maintain the natural order.
Yeah, but if the beaver population gets too big, it impresses upon the natural order. The natural order, actually, is just another way of saying the balancing point between two utterly self-interested opposing forces (let's be simplistic here and assume it's only two). Not that one side or the other is consciously or even intuitively trying to bring about a state of harmony. The woods would choke out the beavers if it could, just as the beavers would strip the woods bare if they could.
As unsavory as we humans are, Americans in particular, we're "smart" enough to know how to beat back the woods. So that's exactly what we're doing.
And in competing for the same resources, which all forms of life do, they drive each other into extinction constantly.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896
10000+ posts
|
|
10000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 14,896 |
But, the "natural order" prevents the beaver population from becoming too large. More beavers means more food for beaver predators. More food for beaver predators beaver means predators can survive and breed. More breeding of beaver predators then means...less beavers.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 308
300+ posts
|
|
300+ posts
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 308 |
But you're forgetting the Africanised swallow.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
|
|
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13 |
Humans are cheating in the natural order. We've achieved such dominance that we tip over any opposing force. Big cat predation 10,000 years ago was a princpal cause of human death. Certainly isn't now.
|
|
|
|
|
