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To bring this post back to the original subject...
I just got back from Baltimore Comicon and asked Waid if the story was referring to Birthright and he said no.
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quote:
Originally posted by Snapman:
To bring this post back to the original subject...
I just got back from Baltimore Comicon and asked Waid if the story was referring to Birthright and he said no.
Did he tell you why there's no issue in December?
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Who says it has to be?
Do you buy comics to read the characters origin or to read the characters adventures?
The origin is set in the past, both in the real world and in the context of the comic. Why does the origin have to be 'fresh'?
What needs to be 'fresh' is the stories that take place in the now, today, not those that took place 25 years ago from the characters p.o.v.
Origins don't make the stories, they are meant to introduce the characters, not define them for their entire existance.
It has to be fresh IF YOU HAVE TO KEEP IT IN MIND AT ALL TIMES! You've said so yourself, the origin has to be respected and nothing can contradict it yadda yadda yadda. I wish they'd just tell continuity to go fuck itself with a fork, but that's not gonna happen in a long time. In the meantime, respecting continuity is a very valid option... as long of the origin is something fresh. During the first years after Byrne's revamp a lot of things were added and developed to the origin, by Byrne himself and by the first people that followed him. However, nowadays nothing can be added or developed from the Byrne origin, because you gotta keep in mind a shitload of things that limit the writer.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Captain America's origin dates back to 1941...
Spider-Man's to 1963...
Thor's to 1961...
The Fantastic Four also debuted in 1961...
Those origins haven't been changed, they have been modernized, sure, but they are still the same ones. If you want to buy a comic with the origin of the F4 you have to buy comics dated all the way to 1961.
Do you think those origins are 'fresh'?
You said it yourself, they've been modernized. Just like Byrne modernized Siegel and Shuster's origin and how someone should modernize Byrne's.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
However, nowadays nothing can be added or developed from the Byrne origin, because you gotta keep in mind a shitload of things that limit the writer.
Only bad writers feel limited.
Geoff Johns has no problem respecting the continuity of each and every single DC book he's ever worked on, he enhances that continuity and even manages to respect Infinity Inc, a book that came out long before Man of Steel.
Man of Steel can be respected without having to be changed.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
quote:
Originally posted by Snapman:
To bring this post back to the original subject...
I just got back from Baltimore Comicon and asked Waid if the story was referring to Birthright and he said no.
Did he tell you why there's no issue in December?
I didn't ask. He seemed pretty clueless about the whole story. Another fan also said the rumor wasn't referring to a DC or Marvel book.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
You said it yourself, they've been modernized. Just like Byrne modernized Siegel and Shuster's origin and how someone should modernize Byrne's.
Let me ask you this. Do you read ANY of those Marvel comics I mentioned?
None of the Spidey comics have used the origin from Amazing Fantasy in years, yet they respect it and what's come after.
Just a few months ago an issue of Amazing Spider-Man mentioned Gwen Stacy's death, a story that predates MoS by 11 years. It did't modernize it, it didn't change it, it didn't do anything to it, it just mentioned it.
Why can't the same happen with Superman? Superman, since Eddie took over, is the ONLY character in comics that gets this kind of abuse, that's why he's being left behind by all other characters.
While the Superman writers stay busy trying to bring back the Silver Age, all other comics respect the Post Crisis changes and tell new and better stories without having to sacrifice characterization.
All the Batman books, Green Lantern, Flash, JSA, Wonder Woman, Teen Titans, Outsiders, etc, etc, these books are leaving Superman in the dust for the simple reason that unlike Superman these comics tell new stories without dating back to th 1970's.
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Modernized yes, refresh it to pertain to the here and now, but "Birthright" re-writes it altogether.
Take for instance the F4. Reed and Ben originally met in NAM, then it was updated to Desert Storm in the "Heroes Reborn" origin. Same basic concept just updating it to pertain to current day.
Disco Steve, I can see you come at people with the mentality of a 2 year old with ADHD.
I came here, read a post, and shared my views and opinions, and since they didn't coincide with the vocal majority here, I get attacked.
Woodstock, I'm still waiting to hear my "Views on Comic Books" from you, I mean after all you seem to know them so please share them.
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Outside the 'I'm so glad I was born an American instead of Russian!" theme in MoS, I DARE you to tell me what you think is outdated about it.
Issue 1: Clark played Football (Football is NEVER outdated... until Rollerball catches on! (fingers crossed)).
He traveled the world (being imitated by Waid right now).
He told Lana they couldn't be together (used in the ongoing titles all the time).
His parents created the Superman identity (this is outdated?!?!)
He saves a space shuttle (that's outdated too? Last time I checked NASA still used shuttles).
Lois Lane gave him his name (this is outdated?)
Issue 2: Luthor is rich (this is outdated? It's being used in Smallville right now).
Lois Lane interviews Superman but is scooped by Clark (this is outdated?)
Issue 3: He meets Batman (that's outdated, lol).
Magpie (she was just mentioned in Superman/Batman #2, how is she outdated?)
Issue 4: He and Lex meet, the hatred begins (this is outdated, lol). Making Lex come from Smallville is SOOOOOO fresh, as fresh as spring time circa 1965, lol.
Issue 5: Bizarro and Lucy Lane being blind, then recovering her sight (that's outdated??)
Issue 6: Clark finds out his Kryptonian origins, decides to embrace his human upbringing (that's outdated??)
Lana comes back to Smallville after being missing for years (another thing being imitated by Waid right now).
So, please, what exactly is it about MoS that you find outdated, outside the Russian thing which I'm willing to concede is VERY outdated...
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Only bad writers feel limited.
Geoff Johns has no problem respecting the continuity of each and every single DC book he's ever worked on, he enhances that continuity and even manages to respect Infinity Inc, a book that came out long before Man of Steel.
Man of Steel can be respected without having to be changed.
The books Johns has worked on haven't been published once every week for 17 years. Infinity Inc came before Man of Steel but the story told in that comic isn't 1/20 as long as the one started in Man of Steel and that continues to this day.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
The books Johns has worked on haven't been published once every week for 17 years. Infinity Inc came before Man of Steel but the story told in that comic isn't 1/20 as long as the one started in Man of Steel and that continues to this day.
The concept and characters in the JSA date back to the 1940's...
Flash dates back to the 1960's, as does Hawkman (who dates back to the 40's AND the 60's).
The characters may not have been continuously published every month/week for the last 40 years, but they have been part of the DC U for that long in a number of ways, and Johns manages to use each and every single story to tell his own narratives, without ignoring anything while at the same time respecting that Crisis and projects like Hawkworld, the Last Days of the JSA and Zero Hour happened (hell, ZH launched the current JSA series! Just check the last page of the JSA Returns event, which has Hourman getting a vision of the new JSA moments before he died during ZH).
Unlike Waid and many other whinners, Johns knows what he's talking about and respects what's come before without whinning about it.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Let me ask you this. Do you read ANY of those Marvel comics I mentioned?
None of the Spidey comics have used the origin from Amazing Fantasy in years, yet they respect it and what's come after.
Just a few months ago an issue of Amazing Spider-Man mentioned Gwen Stacy's death, a story that predates MoS by 11 years. It did't modernize it, it didn't change it, it didn't do anything to it, it just mentioned it.
Why can't the same happen with Superman? Superman, since Eddie took over, is the ONLY character in comics that gets this kind of abuse, that's why he's being left behind by all other characters.
While the Superman writers stay busy trying to bring back the Silver Age, all other comics still stories that respect the Post Crisis changes and tell new and better stories without having to sacrifice characterization.
All the Batman books, Green Lantern, Flash, JSA, Wonder Woman, Teen Titans, Outsiders, etc, etc, these books are leaving Superman in the dust for the simple reason that unlike Superman these comics tell new stories without dating back to th 1970's.
One comic every week for 17 years. One (at least) 22 pages addition to the story every week. That's a convulted story. And every single page has to be respected.
Say you're a Superman writer and you have a cool idea about the first meeting between Superman and another character. Oh, whoops, can't do it, the first meeting was in Adventures of the Man of Action of Tomorrow featuring Superman #674.
Going back to the Silver Age isn't good either. It's just as bad as staying in the 80's.
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quote:
Originally posted by Conner Kent:
Modernized yes, refresh it to pertain to the here and now, but "Birthright" re-writes it altogether.
So did Man of Steel. How come you don't hate it for the same reason?
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
One comic every week for 17 years. One (at least) 22 pages addition to the story every week. That's a convulted story. And every single page has to be respected.
Say you're a Superman writer and you have a cool idea about the first meeting between Superman and another character. Oh, whoops, can't do it, the first meeting was in Adventures of the Man of Action of Tomorrow featuring Superman #674.
Going back to the Silver Age isn't good either. It's just as bad as staying in the 80's.
That's as good a metaphor as any...
You just nailed the problem on the head. The whinners want to do things first but when they find out that someone beat them to it they make this claims that continuity is the work of the great Satan and that anyone that follows it is damned.
In my case, if I found myself in that situation (i.e. I want to do something and think I'm the first one to do it but find out that someone did it before me), I won't whine, I'll just accept it and use it.
If I can't do it first, then I'll just do what comes next...
To follow upon your metaphor, say I wanted to write about the first meeting between Hal Jordan and Clark Kent... damn, I can't do the 'first' meeting, Neil Gaiman already did that.
What I can do?
I can do the SECOND meeting.
What did Gaiman miss? What did he do, what didn't he do?
Hey, Gaiman wrote a great story but he missed the coolest part of them all... he didn't have Hal give his ring to Superman!!! I can do that, I can be the one that does the first in continuity story that shows Superman using Hal's ring, how cool is that?!?!
What else did Gaiman miss? He didn't show Carol and Lois meeting, he didn't show Hal and Clark compare power levels just for fun (these are the two most powerful members of the JLA!!).
And so on and so forth, like every GOOD writer I'd find my own story to tell without whinning that someone else got to it before me, instead I'll study what that someone else did and try to do a follow up that picks up on what that someone missed AND add my own take on things...
That's the difference between a GOOD writer and a BAD one...
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Outside the 'I'm so glad I was born an American instead of Russian!" theme in MoS, I DARE you to tell me what you think is outdated about it.
Issue 1: Clark played Football (Football is NEVER outdated... until Rollerball catches on! (fingers crossed)).
He traveled the world (being imitated by Waid right now).
He told Lana they couldn't be together (used in the ongoing titles all the time).
His parents created the Superman identity (this is outdated?!?!)
He saves a space shuttle (that's outdated too? Last time I checked NASA still used shuttles).
Lois Lane gave him his name (this is outdated?)
Issue 2: Luthor is rich (this is outdated? It's being used in Smallville right now).
Lois Lane interviews Superman but is scooped by Clark (this is outdated?)
Issue 3: He meets Batman (that's outdated, lol).
Magpie (she was just mentioned in Superman/Batman #2, how is she outdated?)
Issue 4: He and Lex meet, the hatred begins (this is outdated, lol). Making Lex come from Smallville is SOOOOOO fresh, as fresh as spring time circa 1965, lol.
Issue 5: Bizarro and Lucy Lane being blind, then recovering her sight (that's outdated??)
Issue 6: Clark finds out his Kryptonian origins, decides to embrace his human upbringing (that's outdated??)
Lana comes back to Smallville after being missing for years (another thing being imitated by Waid right now).
So, please, what exactly is it about MoS that you find outdated, outside the Russian thing which I'm willing to concede is VERY outdated...
It's too 80's. I like the story a lot. I enjoy it every time I read it. But, with everything that's been added to it and how much it's been revisited, it got old.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
It's too 80's.
So are Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns, yet no one calls them 'outdated'.
I expected a better reply from you on this :)
Please, tell me what exactly about this story is outdated. Forget all other stories. The '80's' thing can be applied to ALL the reboots done back then. There has to be something that only applies to MoS that would make it outdated and in need of revision, something that justified BR.
The 80's thing, since it applies to so many titles, is not enough because those other stories AREN'T being modernized.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
The concept and characters in the JSA date back to the 1940's...
Rarely published constanly for long periods. Most of the stuff from the early days is out of continuity. Hasn't had one book out for 17 years.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Flash dates back to the 1960's,
If you're counting the line of Flashes, it goes back to the 40's. Most of the stories are out of continuity. 80% of the stories in continuity started in 1987, and he hasn't had one comic published each week for 17 years.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
as does Hawkman (who dates back to the 40's AND the 60's).
Not published constantly. Don't get me started on the continuity mess with that guy.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
The characters may not have been continuously published every month/week for the last 40 years, but they have been part of the DC U for that long in a number of ways, and Johns manages to use each and every single story to tell his own narratives, without ignoring anything while at the same time respecting that Crisis and projects like Hawkworld, the Last Days of the JSA and Zero Hour happened (hell, ZH launched the current JSA series! Just check the last page of the JSA Returns event, which has Hourman getting a vision of the new JSA moments before he died during ZH).
Even then, they're stories aren't anywhere as convulted as Superman's story for the past 17 years. Ask a casual reader about what's been happening with Flash since 1987 and he might give you a pretty accurate answer. Then ask him about Luthor.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Unlike Waid and many other whinners, Johns knows what he's talking about and respects what's come before without whinning about it.
What Johns is doing is a perfectly valid option. Not the only choice.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
Rarely published constanly for long periods. Most of the stuff from the early days is out of continuity. Hasn't had one book out for 17 years.
Not really. A lot of old 1940'S material is still considered in continuity, mostly the stuff that predates the Multiverse... and it makes sense too since you rarely saw the JSA after the 60's, you mostly saw them once a year in the crossovers with the JLA, so nothing was really lost.
quote:
If you're counting the line of Flashes, it goes back to the 40's. Most of the stories are out of continuity. 80% of the stories in continuity started in 1987, and he hasn't had one comic published each week for 17 years.
Not really again :) Those Jay Garrick stories and the Barry Allen stories that don't involve the multiverse are still in continuity.
quote:
Not published constantly. Don't get me started on the continuity mess with that guy.
You see a mess, Johns sees possibilities...
quote:
Even then, they're stories aren't anywhere as convulted as Superman's story for the past 17 years. Ask a casual reader about what's been happening with Flash since 1987 and he might give you a pretty accurate answer. Then ask him about Luthor.
You mean that the 1988 CBS toon, Lois and Clark, the 1990's WB toon and Smallville aren't enough for people to understand that Lex Luthor is not who he used to be in the 60's, 70's and early 80's?
People aren't stupid as continuity haters think they are, they understand that Luthor is not how Gene Hackman played him...
And Superman's stories for the 12 years that followed MoS were interesting, not convulted, that didn't start till 99...
quote:
What Johns is doing is a perfectly valid option. Not the only choice.
Johns sells, Waid doesn't...
23 32 36.76 JUN031568 FANTASTIC FOUR #502 (#73) $2.25 MAR
24 35 36.56 JUN031569 FANTASTIC FOUR #503 (#74) $2.25 MAR
31 30 28.86 ** JUN030163 SUPERMAN BIRTHRIGHT #2 (Of 12) $2.95 DC
22 26 39.32 ** MAY031539 AVENGERS #69 $2.25 MAR
29 42 29.49 ** JUN030188 JSA #51 $2.50 DC
46 65 23.93 ** JUN030176 FLASH #201 $2.25 DC
47 58 23.45 ** JUN030189 JSA ALL STARS #4 (Of 8) $2.50 DC
65 78 19.41 ** JUN030180 HAWKMAN #18 $2.50 DC
Notice the leaps that Johns's stories take? From 65 to 46, while Waid only manages to go from 35 to 24. Yes, Waid's tend to rank higher, but that's because he works with more recognizable characters.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
That's as good a metaphor as any...
You just nailed the problem on the head. The whinners want to do things first but when they find out that someone beat them to it they make this claims that continuity is the work of the great Satan and that anyone that follows it is damned.
If they have a great story to tell and they can't do it because of continuity then, yeah, they're right. I mean, what kinda world is this where someone can't tell a good story because it doesn't respect continuity?! There's Elseworlds, but the problem with that is that they don't add anything to the character... unless we integrated, of course, but that's out of the question.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
In my case, if I found myself in that situation (i.e. I want to do something and think I'm the first one to do it but find out that someone did it before me), I won't whine, I'll just accept it and use it.
If I can't do it first, then I'll just do what comes next...
To follow upon your metaphor, say I wanted to write about the first meeting between Hal Jordan and Clark Kent... damn, I can't do the 'first' meeting, Neil Gaiman already did that.
Actually, it wasn't the first meeting, if you're referring to Legend of the Green Flame. But let's suppouse it was.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
What I can do?
I can do the SECOND meeting.
Ah, but what if it's VITAL to the story that it's the first meeting and not the second or the third? What if you woke up one night with the idea of how Superman's very first encounter with Green Lantern should be like burning in your head and it's absolutely brilliant?
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
What did Gaiman miss? What did he do, what didn't he do?
Hey, Gaiman wrote a great story but he missed the coolest part of them all... he didn't have Hal give his ring to Superman!!! I can do that, I can be the one that does the first in continuity story that shows Superman using Hal's ring, how cool is that?!?!
What else did Gaiman miss? He didn't show Carol and Lois meeting, he didn't show Hal and Clark compare power levels just for fun (these are the two most powerful members of the JLA!!).
Heh. That sounds awfully Silver Agey for someone that hates the Silver Age. Just an observation.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
And so on and so forth, like every GOOD writer I'd find my own story to tell without whinning that someone else got to it before me, instead I'll study what that someone else did and try to do a follow up that picks up on what that someone missed AND add my own take on things...
That's the difference between a GOOD writer and a BAD one...
I thought it was the quality of the ideas and stories produced, not the way you can fit them in continuity.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
quote:
Originally posted by Pig Iron:
All I want is a good supergirl. Is that too much to ask for?
Yes, it is.
Be honest, you don't want a 'good' Supergirl, you want a Kryptonian Supergirl.
The Matrix/Linda Danvers version of the character was superior to the Kara version in every way you can think of, but people didn't give her a chance for the simple fact that she wasn't Kryptonian.
If instead of being a clone of the Lana Lang of an alternate dimension she had been a clone of the Superboy of an alternate dimension (which would make her Kryptonian), or the Kara of an alternate dimension then people would have accepted her.
Matrix=Proty..one of the superpets.
Anyway..you never adressed any of my other valid points..you just picked one you disagreed with. So, apparently you must agree with the rest of my original post.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
So are Watchmen and Dark Knight Returns, yet no one calls them 'outdated'.
The story started in those comics isn't continued every week. It stops there (stops for good in Watchmen's case). There aren't any "The Watchmen" or Bat-Man comics nowadays that have to respect what was established in those comics published every week. If that was the case, and they were published in a "character can't age" world like Superman, the story would suffer a lot. It'd degradate, just like Superman has.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Please, tell me what exactly about this story is outdated. Forget all other stories. The '80's' thing can be applied to ALL the reboots done back then. There has to be something that only applies to MoS that would make it outdated and in need of revision, something that justified BR.
The 80's thing, since it applies to so many titles, is not enough because those other stories AREN'T being modernized.
I'm not saying it's outdated, I'm saying it got old, it's a different thing. I don't mean it got old as in "it has aged", I mean in a "dude, it got old" way. Like when you tell a joke 200 times. At some point it gets old. Why did Man of Steel get old before the other origins? Simple. I insist; one addition to the ongoing story each weeks damages the story and the character on the long run.
The thing about it being "too 80's" is just something personal. Nothing I expect everyone to feel.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
If they have a great story to tell and they can't do it because of continuity then, yeah, they're right. I mean, what kinda world is this where someone can't tell a good story because it doesn't respect continuity?! There's Elseworlds, but the problem with that is that they don't add anything to the character... unless we integrated, of course, but that's out of the question.
You do realize what you said, right?
"There's Elseworlds, but the problem with that is that they don't add anything to the character... unless we integrated, of course, but that's out of the question."
You do see the hidden meaning in that, right?
Let's translate it:
"There's Elseworlds, but they PROBLEM with that is that they don't add anything to the character... the stories are out of CONTINUITY so they might as well not count."
That's ANOTHER part of the problem. These whinners don't only want to tell THEIR versions of things but they want THEIR versions to be the OFFICIAL one, the one that OTHERS have to use and accept.
Neil Gaiman didn't need continuity OR an Elseworlds label to tell his Superman/Green Lantern story, he just told it, the end...
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Actually, it wasn't the first meeting, if you're referring to Legend of the Green Flame. But let's suppose it was.
.
Ok.
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Ah, but what if it's VITAL to the story that it's the first meeting and not the second or the third? What if you woke up one night with the idea of how Superman's very first encounter with Green Lantern should be like burning in your head and it's absolutely brilliant?
If it's VITAL, very, very, very important for MY story to be the FIRST time that ___ happens and someone already did it before me, what I would do is find an OPENING in that version of the story where MY story might fit.
Maybe it fits one panel after that story ended, maybe it fits between panels, maybe it can predate that story, who knows? The point is that I'd try to find a place for my story to fit, without ONCE whinning because someone else beat me to it...
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Heh. That sounds awfully Silver Agey for someone that hates the Silver Age. Just an observation.
Lol.
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I thought it was the quality of the ideas and stories produced, not the way you can fit them in continuity.
Who said those are mutually exclusive?
You just said:
"There's Elseworlds, but the problem with that is that they don't add anything to the character... unless we integrated, of course, but that's out of the question."
Just an observation :)
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Conny, let's look at it this way, I see your posts and I cringe before I read them, because you sound exactly like someone who listens to MOTA and believes what he says. In that way, you're worse than him. MOTA at least can be productive, when he's not these boards anyway. You sound just like him but worse. Get it?
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quote:
Originally posted by Pig Iron:
Matrix=Proty..one of the superpets.
Anyway..you never adressed any of my other valid points..you just picked one you disagreed with. So, apparently you must agree with the rest of my original post.
Matrix is not proty, lol.
And I did challenge the most important point you made, the one all your other points rested on.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Not really. A lot of old 1940'S material is still considered in continuity, mostly the stuff that predates the Multiverse... and it makes sense too since you rarely saw the JSA after the 60's, you mostly saw them once a year in the crossovers with the JLA, so nothing was really lost.
But the 40's are still a "grey area", where it's not set in stone what stories are into continuity or not. Only the ones that have been validated through modern age comics count. And, all things considered, it's still less lenghty and less convulted than Superman's story nowadays.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Not really again :) Those Jay Garrick stories and the Barry Allen stories that don't involve the multiverse are still in continuity.
Same as above.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
You see a mess, Johns sees possibilities...
I don't mind the mess, really. Hawkworld completely fucked continuity... but it was a good story, so it was worth it. My point was that, because of the mess, a lot of stories are out of continuity.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
You mean that the 1988 CBS toon, Lois and Clark, the 1990's WB toon and Smallville aren't enough for people to understand that Lex Luthor is not who he used to be in the 60's, 70's and early 80's?
People aren't stupid as continuity haters think they are, they understand that Luthor is not how Gene Hackman played him...
Heh, I didn't mean that. I mean ask them to explain you what happened to Luthor Jr.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
And Superman's stories for the 12 years that followed MoS were interesting, not convulted, that didn't start till 99...
They gradually started getting more and more convulted starting around 1994. By 1999 they pretty much sucked.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Johns sells, Waid doesn't...
[sarcasm]Good point.[/sarcasm]
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
The story started in those comics isn't continued every week. It stops there (stops for good in Watchmen's case). There aren't any "The Watchmen" or Bat-Man comics nowadays that have to respect what was established in those comics published every week. If that was the case, and they were published in a "character can't age" world like Superman, the story would suffer a lot. It'd degradate, just like Superman has.
So the criteria seems to be a comic book A) whose origin dates back to the 1980's and B) has been published once a week for 17 years...
Batman
Green Lantern
Those are the ones that come the closest to meeting that critirea and neither one (Year One and Emerald Dawn) are being revised.
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I'm not saying it's outdated, I'm saying it got old, it's a different thing. I don't mean it got old as in "it has aged", I mean in a "dude, it got old" way. Like when you tell a joke 200 times. At some point it gets old. Why did Man of Steel get old before the other origins? Simple. I insist; one addition to the ongoing story each weeks damages the story and the character on the long run.
The thing about it being "too 80's" is just something personal. Nothing I expect everyone to feel.
That doesn't make much sense, not on the face of Year One and Emerald Dawn.
What version of Zorro did the Waynes go to see? A 1980's version of the movie or the 1990's Antonio Banderas movie?
As continuity stands now, they saw whatever version came out in the 80's (Death and the Maidens says that the Wayne's died 25 years ago).
See, that Zorro thing can change without altering the overall origin. Changing Krypton like Waid is doing changes not only the origin but over 80% of the stories that came out of MoS!
So, for a third time, I have to ask you, what's OLD about MoS? Are any of the points I brought up old, too 80's or too outdated?
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So, you're saying Matrix and Kal are cousins??
How does the rest of my statement rest on that exclusive line, as valid as it is???
re-qouted for MOTA's benefit...................
No, I liked the David Supergirl. I like Kara better yes. Hmmm, did the matrix supergirl have 20+ years of continuity? Did she die in Crisis and basically become erased? Barry is atleast remembered. Your forthcoming superhorse arguement is baseless as david has a comet variation with a similar centaur backstory. Supergirl is/was meant to be superman's cousin. A relation. Just because people cling to the lone kryptonian arguement, which is over now anyway, people whine about Kara being inferior. How?
Name 4 or 5 events in the DCU in the past 20 years that are well remembered. Death of Barry, death of supergirl, batman's back and death of supes, and hal's turning.
Obviously she is well remembered and has a more lasting place. You can tear her down all you want but if Matrix died.. 20,000 people might care...but 30,000 + showed up for kara's return and more would hav eif they thought it was anything more than a ruse.
I like a doe-eyed, younger Cousin who has a similar tragic history. A person supes can relate to and share his heritage with. now he has no one and he's mostly boring. see a correlation?
So you can have your new, improved Bendis inspired , taking it anal supergirl or whoever shows up next. I'll wait until someone similar, not a clone necessarily, shows up.
Comics are not real. They are fantasy. Super-hero Comics have a moral code or they're mostly irrelevant. Wouldn't it be nice to have an icon of good to balance the new batgirl, powergirl, huntress, boring wonder woman, or any other DC heroine? I think so.
If you don't think so fine. But your Matrix supergirl has been replaced by some new ditz. And no one really cares..except for you and the 11 people on the supergirl boards.
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By the way MOTA. I bought the 2 Supreme TPBs recently and enjoyed them greatly... ![[biiiig grin]](images/icons/grin.gif)
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So, do you also hate Mary Marvel's personality and/or character?
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
But the 40's are still a "grey area", where it's not set in stone what stories are into continuity or not. Only the ones that have been validated through modern age comics count. And, all things considered, it's still less lenghty and less convulted than Superman's story nowadays.
Two things validate an old story; making a reference to it or not making a reference to it either to validate it or invalidate it. By that standard, most of those stories are still in continuity.
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I don't mind the mess, really. Hawkworld completely fucked continuity... but it was a good story, so it was worth it. My point was that, because of the mess, a lot of stories are out of continuity.
Actually you have it the wrong way. Hawkworld, the mini series, came first. It was Hawkworld the monthly comic that screwed continuity up.
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Heh, I didn't mean that. I mean ask them to explain you what happened to Luthor Jr.
Lex Luthor got cancer, he cloned a young body of himself and had his brain placed inside it.
Eventually, that body contracted an illness which forced Luthor to sell his soul to a devil to regain his lost youth, and that's how he's been since then, a youtfull man comparable to Superman.
It took me two sentences...
How about you try explaining Waid's Red Skull?
Let's see:
The Red Skull was a bellboy who was selected by Hitler to be his icon for Nazi hatred.
Eventually, while using the Cosmic Cube, the Red Skull died, only to return later in the form of a shadow which eventually reformed into the body of a man with the powers of a God thanks to the same Cosmic Cube which had killed him.
So before you even think about saying that Luthor II is convoluted, please consider that what happened to him is NOTHING compared to what's happened to many, many, many other comic book villains in the same 17 year time period.
Should I bring up Doom 2099?
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They gradually started getting more and more convulted starting around 1994. By 1999 they pretty much sucked.
I agree on the second part of that statement.
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quote:
Originally posted by Pig Iron:
So, you're saying Matrix and Kal are cousins??
I said she's his sister because they were both raised by the Kents...
quote:
Originally posted by Pig Iron:
If you don't think so fine. But your Matrix supergirl has been replaced by some new ditz. And no one really cares..except for you and the 11 people on the supergirl boards.
First, I disagree with your 'four event' list. The Death of Barry and Kara is the same event, Crisis, which is at the top of the list.
Second, Kara isn't remembered because she was an anomaly, a spin off that instead of enriching the main concept took away from it.
LAST SURVIVOR OF THE PLANET KRYPTON, not survivor #43048239482384.
Matrix is a spin off that enriches the main concept because it doesn't take away from it in any shape or form.
Third, just what is people's problem with Cir-El? I don't get it. She's Superman's daughter from a possible future.
Is it because she's a girl instead of a boy? Is it because her super hero name is 'SuperGirl'?
If her name were 'SuperMaid' would that make it better?
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
You do realize what you said, right?
"There's Elseworlds, but the problem with that is that they don't add anything to the character... unless we integrated, of course, but that's out of the question."
You do see the hidden meaning in that, right?
Let's translate it:
"There's Elseworlds, but they PROBLEM with that is that they don't add anything to the character... the stories are out of CONTINUITY so they might as well not count."
Heh! I thought you'd get it by now. I have no problem with immediate continuity. It helps the character grow. But, a continuity consistent of everything published each week for the past 17 years? No, thanks.
I'd prefer a "free continuity" where only what you want counts, but that's an impossible dream.
Congratulations on the way you avoided my point. You're getting better at it, I almost didn't notice.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
That's ANOTHER part of the problem. These whinners don't only want to tell THEIR versions of things but they want THEIR versions to be the OFFICIAL one, the one that OTHERS have to use and accept.
How's that different from what you want? You want the version YOU like to count.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Neil Gaiman didn't need continuity OR an Elseworlds label to tell his Superman/Green Lantern story, he just told it, the end...
And I wish everyone would do that.
Wait, Waid's story also hasn't an Elseworld's label and it also isn't in continuity (at least not at the moment)... How's that different from what Gaiman did? Ah, that's right. You got inside Waid's mind and discovered his true purposes, I forgot. Sorry.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
If it's VITAL, very, very, very important for MY story to be the FIRST time that ___ happens and someone already did it before me, what I would do is find an OPENING in that version of the story where MY story might fit.
Maybe it fits one panel after that story ended, maybe it fits between panels, maybe it can predate that story, who knows? The point is that I'd try to find a place for my story to fit, without ONCE whinning because someone else beat me to it...
But suppouse there's no space for that. Let's say your idea is what happens the first time Superman laid eyes in Wonder Woman. But that's alredy stablished in another comic. In that comic they show the way he reacted and all. Your idea consists of a completely different reaction after the first glance.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Who said those are mutually exclusive?
They can be, depending on the situation, like in my example above.
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quote:
Originally posted by Pig Iron:
So, do you also hate Mary Marvel's personality and/or character?
Mary Marvel is part of the concept, not something that was added on later.
It's called the Marvel FAMILY, not Captain Marvel, the world's ONLY mightiest mortal.
Mary Marvel being part of the original concept(that of family) is not a problem, bringing in tons and tons of Kryptonians so that Superman can someone to fight or someone to relate to even though he's supposed to be the LAST one of his race, IS a problem, it goes against the entire concept.
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OK that's dumb. So, because wolverine, storm , etc weren't original members of the X-Men then they are redundant or something added on later and not part of the original concept?
Comics are living bodies of work. Which makes them special. My problem lies in restarting the existing concepts and then replacing them with basic crap. i'm sure David wouldn't have used a matrix character if Byrne hadn't created the mess.
Example. Jason Todd was horrible. replace him with a good character like Tim Drake an dpeople get on with their lives. No supergirl is better than a3rd rate replacement for the same "add on" charcter concept.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
So the criteria seems to be a comic book A) whose origin dates back to the 1980's and B) has been published once a week for 17 years...
Batman
Green Lantern
Those are the ones that come the closest to meeting that critirea and neither one (Year One and Emerald Dawn) are being revised.
No, the criteria is: a whole fucking lot of comics have been published and they're all in continuity. Green Lantern is nowhere near Superman. Bat-Man might, I don't know, I don't read it. I've been told it has a lot of "grey" not clearly defined areas, though.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
That doesn't make much sense, not on the face of Year One and Emerald Dawn.
What version of Zorro did the Waynes go to see? A 1980's version of the movie or the 1990's Antonio Banderas movie?
As continuity stands now, they saw whatever version came out in the 80's (Death and the Maidens says that the Wayne's died 25 years ago).
See, that Zorro thing can change without altering the overall origin. Changing Krypton like Waid is doing changes not only the origin but over 80% of the stories that came out of MoS!
So, for a third time, I have to ask you, what's OLD about MoS? Are any of the points I brought up old, too 80's or too outdated?
Aaaaaaaaaargh... I'll put as simply as I can.
A story starts in the mid 80's. The following week, there's an addition to that story. The following week, there's another addition! And, guess what: the next week... there's yet another addition!!! This goes on for years. Sometimes there are months with only three additions, but other times there are months with six or more.
Don't you think that, at some point, somewhere between the first 10 and 15 years, at the rate we're going... things wouldn't be as fresh as they used to be? Wouldn't the writers start running out of ways of stretching the same old story... always keeping in mind what goes before? Wouldn't it start getting... boring?
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
Heh! I thought you'd get it by now. I have no problem with immediate continuity. It helps the character grow. But, a continuity consistent of everything published each week for the past 17 years? No, thanks.
I'd prefer a "free continuity" where only what you want counts, but that's an impossible dream.
Congratulations on the way you avoided my point. You're getting better at it, I almost didn't notice.
You were very clear, elseworlds are a PROBLEM because they don't affect the character, in other words, they don't affect CONTINUITY, which is what the whinners want to do, change what IS continuity to what they WANT continuity to be.
If it were just a matter of telling stories then they should just do it, but it's not, it's a dick contest (another metaphor)...
quote:
How's that different from what you want? You want the version YOU like to count.
That shows how little you know about what MY version is :)
In MY version of Superman, the character debuts in 1938, grows old (by Kryptonian standards), has children in the 1940's-50's, who in turn have children of their own in the 1970's-90's.
In MY version, you'd be reading about Superman's grandchildren by now, second generation human/Kryptonian hybrids.
If you read my fan fic you'd see that that's exactly what I'm doing... with the ONE exception that the Superman I use in MY version is the one from Man of Steel because I respect and aknowledge that Crisis and MoS happened.
In comics, I find MoS to be the BEST possible versions of the origin of Superman that's ever been done in THIS medium, while in movies the BEST version is the one from the first movie, and on TV the BEST version is the one being done TODAY in Smallville.
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And I wish everyone would do that.
Wait, Waid's story also hasn't an Elseworld's label and it also isn't in continuity (at least not at the moment)... How's that different from what Gaiman did?
What makes it different is Eddie Berganza, he had to fuck it up and say that BR was the new origin based solely on the fact that of all the bs he's edited in the last five this is the one that's sold the most.
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But suppouse there's no space for that. Let's say your idea is what happens the first time Superman laid eyes in Wonder Woman. But that's alredy stablished in another comic. In that comic they show the way he reacted and all. Your idea consists of a completely different reaction after the first glance.
If that were the case then the only thing left to do would be to RE WRITE the original story and incorporate MY plot with the original one and have them run side by side.
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quote:
Originally posted by Pig Iron:
OK that's dumb. So, because wolverine, storm , etc weren't original members of the X-Men then they are redundant or something added on later and not part of the original concept?
What concept are you reading?!? lol
The concept of the X-Men allows for the constant introduction of NEW characters. It's not supposed to be about the original five X-Men and that's it...
quote:
Originally posted by Pig Iron:
Comics are living bodies of work. Which makes them special. My problem lies in restarting the existing concepts and then replacing them with basic crap. I'm sure David wouldn't have used a matrix character if Byrne hadn't created the mess.
If Byrne hadn't created Matrix then it's doubtful that PAD would have done a Supergirl comic in the first place. Kara's series were constantly being canceled.
The Matrix/Earth Angel series lasted more than all of the Supergirl series combined...
quote:
Originally posted by Pig Iron:
Example. Jason Todd was horrible. replace him with a good character like Tim Drake an people get on with their lives. No supergirl is better than a 3rd rate replacement for the same "add on" character concept.
Matrix replaced Kara in the same way that Tim replaced Jason. Kara was disruptive to the original concept she spun out of but DC wanted to keep a Supergirl, so they found a compromise...
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
No, the criteria is: a whole fucking lot of comics have been published and they're all in continuity. Green Lantern is nowhere near Superman. Bat-Man might, I don't know, I don't read it. I've been told it has a lot of "grey" not clearly defined areas, though.
Do you have any idea of how many GL books DC published in the late 80's/early 90's?
quote:
A story starts in the mid 80's. The following week, there's an addition to that story. The following week, there's another addition! And, guess what: the next week... there's yet another addition!!! This goes on for years. Sometimes there are months with only three additions, but other times there are months with six or more.
Don't you think that, at some point, somewhere between the first 10 and 15 years, at the rate we're going... things wouldn't be as fresh as they used to be? Wouldn't the writers start running out of ways of stretching the same old story... always keeping in mind what goes before? Wouldn't it start getting... boring?
It didn't start getting boring till that continous story you mention got IGNORED back in 99 and replaced with continuity and characterization best suited for the 1970's...
Sales are in the crapper NOW, how can you blame something that hasn't been used in five years for that?
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Hahahhaahhahhhhh....
Kara's books were cancelled because they didn't sell over 100,000 copies....
I don't think matrix had the same number problems....
Check the numbers....
calling Kara Jason is absolutley ridiculous. Kara is like Dick..an original concept. Dick came along about a year or two after Batman so I guess that takes away from the concept of Batman too...
Xavier never had a twin but Morrison gave him one. So does that make Morrison and the twin stupid? No, you just don't like kara which is fine. But just admit it....
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quote:
Originally posted by Pig Iron:
So, do you also hate Mary Marvel's personality and/or character?
Oh, and one clarification:
I don't hate Kara, I really liked her a lot, her and the SA Superboy, but I'm willing to sacrifice both if it means I get a PURE Superman that's true to the concept.
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