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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Two things validate an old story; making a reference to it or not making a reference to it either to validate it or invalidate it. By that standard, most of those stories are still in continuity.
EVEN if they were (I still think they're not) the story isn't as lenghty as Superman's is nowadays.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Actually you have it the wrong way. Hawkworld, the mini series, came first. It was Hawkworld the monthly comic that screwed continuity up.
How so? I don't remember much about Hawkworld (the mini) but I remember it was good and there was a big mess because of it.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Lex Luthor got cancer, he cloned a young body of himself and had his brain placed inside it.
Eventually, that body contracted an illness which forced Luthor to sell his soul to a devil to regain his lost youth, and that's how he's been since then, a youtfull man comparable to Superman.
You missed the trail. It's very important because it explains how the public can trust Luthor after he bombed Metropolis.
A casual reader will tell you all that (and the trial)? I don't think so.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
How about you try explaining Waid's Red Skull?
Let's see:
The Red Skull was a bellboy who was selected by Hitler to be his icon for Nazi hatred.
Eventually, while using the Cosmic Cube, the Red Skull died, only to return later in the form of a shadow which eventually reformed into the body of a man with the powers of a God thanks to the same Cosmic Cube which had killed him.
So before you even think about saying that Luthor II is convoluted, please consider that what happened to him is NOTHING compared to what's happened to many, many, many other comic book villains in the same 17 year time period.
Should I bring up Doom 2099?
The fact that there are messes worse than Luthor's doesn't make Luthor's mess any better.
I don't know about Doom or Red Skull (and I'm surprised you know about Waid's Red Skull, I thought you didn't like Waid). That's not the point here. Maybe if I read the Captain America comics published in the past 17 years we could discuss if he needs to be revamped or not. Right now we're talking about Superman.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
I agree on the second part of that statement.
So they didn't get gradually worse? In 1999 they started sucking, just like that?
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quote:
Originally posted by Pig Iron:
Hahahhaahhahhhhh....
Kara's books were cancelled because they didn't sell over 100,000 copies....
I don't think matrix had the same number problems....
Check the numbers....
I doubt PAD's Supergirl sold in the 100 range...
And Kara is not an original character, she was a SPIN OFF.
Spin offs are taken from the main concept to enrich it and to make more MONEY off it.
If the spin off fails to do either one or both it can be sacrifized for the betterment of the original concept.
And as for the twin thing, I didn't read Morrison's X-Men so I don't know how he justificed it, but the idea sounds good, so if the way she was introduced paid attention to what came before then there's no harm, no foul.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
EVEN if they were (I still think they're not) the story isn't as lenghty as Superman's is nowadays.
Since unlike Superman most of (for example) Alan Scott's stories that date back to the 1940's are still in continuity, I doubt that's true as even with the weekly schedule Alan's stories outnumber Superman's.
quote:
How so? I don't remember much about Hawkworld (the mini) but I remember it was good and there was a big mess because of it.
Very simple.
Hawkworld mini took place in X timeframe and Hawkworld monthly took place in Y time frame, while Hawkman's time in the JLA took place in Z.
I believe that what happened was that Truman said that X took place in the past, allowing for Hawkman to be in Z, but then Mike Gold wanted Y to be set in the present, which completely disrupted Z, generating all the continuity problems.
quote:
You missed the trail. It's very important because it explains how the public can trust Luthor after he bombed Metropolis.
A casual reader will tell you all that (and the trial)? I don't think so.
Well, if he's a casual reader then he won't care, that's what makes him CASUAL.
If he's a reader with honest interest in the character who wants to learn, then that's another story.
Statements like this make it sound like there's only two kinds of readers; those that follow the stories on a weekly/monthly basis and those that only read a comic every leap year, and that's not true, there's a THIRD kind of reader, the one that picks up a comic, becomes interested and, eventually, begins following the story every week/month.
Casual readers can become regular readers just like regular readers can become casual readers...
quote:
The fact that there are messes worse than Luthor's doesn't make Luthor's mess any better.
I don't know about Doom or Red Skull (and I'm surprised you know about Waid's Red Skull, I thought you didn't like Waid). That's not the point here. Maybe if I read the Captain America comics published in the past 17 years we could discuss if he needs to be revamped or not. Right now we're talking about Superman.
I don't like the Waid that's writing BR, he killed the good Waid that wrote Flash and JLA Year One. This Waid is a a Silver Age fanboy with a hard on for Superman, a fanboy that thinks that Superman is a God (irony being what is it, that description fits Gog, a Waid creation, perfectly).
quote:
So they didn't get gradually worse? In 1999 they started sucking, just like that?
In 99 they got completely derailed. One week things were one way and the next they changed.
Remember, before Eddie and Loeb came along, Luthor owned the Planet, then in ONE issue all of that changed. The building changed, the owner changed, the characters changed.
Things DID change in the blink of an eye, that can't be denied.
Read the comics, compare the continuity from Superman 150 to 151 and you'll see that the change was a very radical one.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
You were very clear, elseworlds are a PROBLEM because they don't affect the character,
The problem, I mean, PROBLEM, is that this CONTINUITY you speak of is too big. Too crowded. When I said making an idea I had for a story an Elseworlds is a problem I didn't mean it in a general way. I meant that the writer wants the idea he had (the example I gave before) to be added to what's been set before. It's his option, he decided to do it that way.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
in other words, they don't affect CONTINUITY, which is what the whinners want to do, change what IS continuity to what they WANT continuity to be.
If it were just a matter of telling stories then they should just do it, but it's not, it's a dick contest (another metaphor)...
That's your assumption. I ask again, how's that different from what Byrne did? Crisis aside.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
That shows how little you know about what MY version is :)
In MY version of Superman, the character debuts in 1938, grows old (by Kryptonian standards), has children in the 1940's-50's, who in turn have children of their own in the 1970's-90's.
In MY version, you'd be reading about Superman's grandchildren by now, second generation human/Kryptonian hybrids.
If you read my fan fic you'd see that that's exactly what I'm doing... with the ONE exception that the Superman I use in MY version is the one from Man of Steel because I respect and aknowledge that Crisis and MoS happened.
In comics, I find MoS to be the BEST possible versions of the origin of Superman that's ever been done in THIS medium, while in movies the BEST version is the one from the first movie, and on TV the BEST version is the one being done TODAY in Smallville.
OK, that's very cool, you're doing what you want. You're doing things the way you think they should be done. However, not everyone feels the same about that.
...how's all that related to what I said, by the way?
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
What makes it different is Eddie Berganza, he had to fuck it up and say that BR was the new origin based solely on the fact that of all the bs he's edited in the last five this is the one that's sold the most.
Oh. I was wrong. You got into Berganza's head, not Waid's. Sorry.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
If that were the case then the only thing left to do would be to RE WRITE the original story and incorporate MY plot with the original one and have them run side by side.
You mean... change the story??? Disrespect continuity??? Holy Moses, that's outrageous!
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Do you have any idea of how many GL books DC published in the late 80's/early 90's?
The most that's ever been published is GL, Mosiac, Warrior and GLCQ. If you add all those issues up it's nowhere near Superman.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
It didn't start getting boring till that continous story you mention got IGNORED back in 99 and replaced with continuity and characterization best suited for the 1970's...
Not ignored, avoided. Still there. Bigger problem. It didn't get boring until then? Superman: King of the World.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Sales are in the crapper NOW, how can you blame something that hasn't been used in five years for that?
Explained it before. They never deleted MoS, they just avoid it. It's still there. It still limits them. Most importantly, all the stories after MoS are there too. Each one limits them a little further. AND on top of everything they're doing the retro thing which makes things even worse.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
The problem, I mean, PROBLEM, is that this CONTINUITY you speak of is too big. Too crowded. When I said making an idea I had for a story an Elseworlds is a problem I didn't mean it in a general way. I meant that the writer wants the idea he had (the example I gave before) to be added to what's been set before. It's his option, he decided to do it that way.
If a writer wants his idea to be ADDED to the continuity then that means he doesn't want his idea to RE write continuity.
If that happens to be the case, if the writer wants to tell a story IN continuity then he has to RESPECT that continuity with the same kind of respect he'd want people to give HIS story.
In other words, the whinners should stop whinning and reliaze that OTHER people got to the characters before they did...
quote:
That's your assumption. I ask again, how's that different from what Byrne did? Crisis aside.
Crisis aside, it's not different, but you CAN'T ignore Crisis, no matter how hard you may try.
It happened, accept it...
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OK, that's very cool, you're doing what you want. You're doing things the way you think they should be done. However, not everyone feels the same about that.
...how's all that related to what I said, by the way?
Well, you asked about MY version of the story, not other people's version...
And it's related in that you accused me of defending MoS because it's the version 'I' want to count, when that's not true, not in the sense that you mean.
I want it to count because it's what was published after Crisis, the same way I'd defend a version with a million Kryptonian survivors if that's what had come after Crisis.
We've been through this before, why won't it stick in your mind? lol
quote:
Oh. I was wrong. You got into Berganza's head, not Waid's. Sorry.
I don't need to get in his head, actions speak louder than words. Just look at the books...
quote:
You mean... change the story??? Disrespect continuity??? Holy Moses, that's outrageous!
Who said anything about disrpecting continuity? I said ADD my story to the original plot, not REPLACE...
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
quote:
Originally posted by Pig Iron:
Hahahhaahhahhhhh....
Kara's books were cancelled because they didn't sell over 100,000 copies....
I don't think matrix had the same number problems....
Check the numbers....
I doubt PAD's Supergirl sold in the 100 range...
And Kara is not an original character, she was a SPIN OFF.
Spin offs are taken from the main concept to enrich it and to make more MONEY off it.
If the spin off fails to do either one or both it can be sacrifized for the betterment of the original concept.
And as for the twin thing, I didn't read Morrison's X-Men so I don't know how he justificed it, but the idea sounds good, so if the way she was introduced paid attention to what came before then there's no harm, no foul.
She Hulk, spider-woman, mary marvel (was not part of the original concept), Ms Marvel, (add more) all sidekicks, revamped versions are generally spinoffs. So they are all not part of the original concept. Things are created to give the writers and artists other toys to play with.
Why don't you write a straight superman series for 50+ issuesand I bet you and the readers get real bored...real quick.
Kara added to the history..she didn't subract. Superboy was superman..not a different person. i don't get the whole spinoff thing.
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P.I., you're confusing ORIGINAL CONCEPT with FIRST ISSUE.
The concept of Hulk doesn't rule out the addition of other Gamma Powered beings like She-Hulk, Leader and Leonard Samson in any way, just like the concept Captain Mar-Vel doesn't rule out others using the Nega Bands.
The original concept of Superman, that of last survivor of Krypton, rules out adding OTHER Kryptonians to it.
And Superboy contradicts the fact that no one knew who Superman was when he arrived on Metropolis in Action Comics #1...
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
The most that's ever been published is GL, Mosiac, Warrior and GLCQ. If you add all those issues up it's nowhere near Superman.
I said it got close. Batman and GL are the only franchises that get close to Superman... those two and the JL franchise, which has one constant, J'Onn J'Onzz.
quote:
Not ignored, avoided. Still there. Bigger problem. It didn't get boring until then? Superman: King of the World.
Like we already agreed, the last year of the Jurgens crew was a bad one. Notice how I say that the problems started FIVE years ago, when Jurgens was still there...
quote:
Explained it before. They never deleted MoS, they just avoid it. It's still there. It still limits them. Most importantly, all the stories after MoS are there too. Each one limits them a little further. AND on top of everything they're doing the retro thing which makes things even worse.
MoS is not the problem, wanting to do the retro thing is the problem.
MoS is not limiting in any way, and even if it were then the same would apply to Year One, Emerald Dawn and Perez's WW relaunch, and those aren't being 'updated'.
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But how does Supes know he's the last survivor??? He assumes. The readers assume. How do you explain Zod, Braniac? Can't Kara be explained just as easily through argo. Jor-El made an assumption so did Kal.... Boom there she is. what more do you need/ It really isn't like ther are 50 kryptonians running around....
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quote:
Originally posted by Pig Iron:
But how does Supes know he's the last survivor??? He assumes. The readers assume. How do you explain Zod, Braniac? Can't Kara be explained just as easily through argo. Jor-El made an assumption so did Kal.... Boom there she is. what more do you need/ It really isn't like ther are 50 kryptonians running around....
Brainiac is Coluan, not Kryptonian...
And true, it's not like there are 50 Kryptonians running around,... it's more like 50 MILLION!! :) , the entire city of Kandor...
And it's not about what Superman knows or doesn't know, it's about the concept.
Look at Rosetta in Smallville. He says that there must be others and Swan replies that there was only one transmission.
He's alone...
Siegel and Shuster came up with the story of the LAST survivor of a doomed world, not one of many.
You're smarter than this, you can tell that the only reason why Supergirl and Zod existed at all is because of marketing, right, not because the story demanded their inclusion?
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Holy Christ! I've gone drinkin' for a few hours and you guys add 3 fucking pages. Geez. I'll hit the high points, then. quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Since unlike Superman most of (for example) Alan Scott's stories that date back to the 1940's are still in continuity, I doubt that's true as even with the weekly schedule Alan's stories outnumber Superman's.
Considering that Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman were the only three superhero titles that DC published in the mid to late 50's and that the Alan Scott Green Lantern was replaced by the Hal Jordan one when the title was relaunched, no, Alan doesn't have more stories that Superman. Alan's mostly been an unused character given the span of DC's publication history. Superman's been going strong with several monthly titles for damn near his entire 65 year run, and especially since the Byrne reboot. Not to mention all the titles that he appeared in as a guest and the JLA books. There is no way that Alan has more stories than Supes.
And most of the continutiy that Johns refers to doesn't come from the 40's. It comes from the 80's. They were stories that retold the old exploits of the JSA and gave credence to some, not all, of the old stories. Especially since continutiy wasn't a very important concept in the 40's.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
quote:
Originally posted by woodstock:
We're nice to the new guys if they don't offer dumbass opinions
Do you have any idea of how subjective that is? lol
One day, remind me to tell you the definition of irony.
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MOTA, the main reason people insult you and get angry at you is because your brain fails to process certain things. Just because you don't like Superman having a cousin and think that it takes away from the character that doesn't mean that everyone else does. You try to force your opinion on everyone else.
Take me for example. I like Byrne's Superman. He concentrated on the sci-fi aspect of it and gave resonable (though maybe not fully scientifically sound) explanations for Big Blue's powers. I don't like Birthright because it is a retread (much like the rest of Waid's work since Kingdom Come). Yet, I can't stand your mindless ramblings on this board. You can't see the forest for the trees, as the old saying goes.
I dislike your posts for much the same reason that I dislike King Krypton's. Even if the subject has nothing to do with Superman or his origins, you'll both find a way to bitch about it and derail everything else that's going on. The two of you do realize that there are other books being published, right?
Conner Kent, learn to take a fucking joke. If you show just how tight-assed and humorless you are on these boards, all you've done is paint a huge target on yourself for more abuse. Settle down and don't take things personally, or you'll wind up just as friendless as MOTA here.
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quote:
Originally posted by theDRUNKENdoctor:
I dislike your posts for much the same reason that I dislike King Krypton's. Even if the subject has nothing to do with Superman or his origins, you'll both find a way to bitch about it and derail everything else that's going on. The two of you do realize that there are other books being published, right?
Well said.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
quote:
Originally posted by Conner Kent:
Modernized yes, refresh it to pertain to the here and now, but "Birthright" re-writes it altogether.
So did Man of Steel. How come you don't hate it for the same reason?
First off I like "Birthright" ok.
I just don't want it to replace "Man of Steel" just for the hell of it.
"Man of Steel" was done because DC just cleaned house with "Crisis on Infinite Earths" so they relaunched their flagship character.
That is the difference between the two.
Like I said I am enjoying "Birthright".
quote:
Originally posted by woodstock:
Conny, let's look at it this way, I see your posts and I cringe before I read them, because you sound exactly like someone who listens to MOTA and believes what he says. In that way, you're worse than him. MOTA at least can be productive, when he's not these boards anyway. You sound just like him but worse. Get it?
Ok that's how you see it fine, but in a place called reality, I have my own opinions. Yes we feel the same on certain points, but we disagree on others.
And if you cringe before reading a post I make then skip on down.
So basically what your saying is you just assume my "views on comic books" are those of MoTA's when in fact they are not, but it is just easier for you to generalize them as such.
I love the Silver Age, but I remember how campy and silly most of it was, but I loved it anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by theDRUNKENdoctor:
Conner Kent, learn to take a fucking joke. If you show just how tight-assed and humorless you are on these boards, all you've done is paint a huge target on yourself for more abuse. Settle down and don't take things personally, or you'll wind up just as friendless as MOTA here.
((sniffle, sniffle)) Fine by me, bring it on.
I have a sense of humor, but because I happen to agree with some you think of as a certain way then I am wrong, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
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Anyway.....I wouldn't mind Birthright as the new origin so much, if DC had the balls to call it that. This backdoor retcon (sounds like a prison term) is annoying. I'm sick of all the questions, all the "is it or isn't it." Mxy has a point that 1986-1999 was one story but it can't necessarily last forever. But if there is a new continuity, it needs to be clearly stated.
On the merits of how they rate, I prefer Man of Steel. It just felt better. Birthright seems like a clear attempt to bring Smallville into the DCU and to make Superman more PC.
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I agree. DC needs to sop this "Let's see how it sells" marketing thing, they seem to be doing.
"Birthright" has been marketed all over the board. It was originally suppose to be a in Continuity exploration of Clark's "Smallville" years, then it was set up as Waid's "Ultimate" type Superman, which then turned into the "Definitive Origin", and now it's just up in the air.
Like I said though the reason why I don't want this to be the new origin isn't based on the story. I like the story so far and I like how the "S" is seen almost like the US Flag is seen by Americans, a beacon of hope, and a symbol of our freedom. I just don't think a new origin is needed, take the "Man of Steel" origin and refresh it, make it more in tune with the world today.
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quote:
Originally posted by Conner Kent:
I agree. DC needs to sop this "Let's see how it sells" marketing thing, they seem to be doing.
Which seems to be what's killing this title. Too many people are confused by it and don't feel like giving it a shot just because it "might" be the new origin.
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I like the story I just prefer the "Man of Steel" origin more.
I think DC is trying to please everyone by keeping it up in the air. The people who love it, and want it to be the new origin see it as such. Those who want "Man of Steel" to remain see "Birthright as an Elseworlds. But by trying to please everyone they are ruining the piece itself.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Since unlike Superman most of (for example) Alan Scott's stories that date back to the 1940's are still in continuity, I doubt that's true as even with the weekly schedule Alan's stories outnumber Superman's.
They do. Besides, for a long while every Superman comic was tied to the next, so there's barely any "free" space in that period. Alan Scott (for example) has lots of free space to spare.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Very simple.
Hawkworld mini took place in X timeframe and Hawkworld monthly took place in Y time frame, while Hawkman's time in the JLA took place in Z.
I believe that what happened was that Truman said that X took place in the past, allowing for Hawkman to be in Z, but then Mike Gold wanted Y to be set in the present, which completely disrupted Z, generating all the continuity problems.
Ah. Was the Hawkworld series any good?
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Well, if he's a casual reader then he won't care, that's what makes him CASUAL.
If he's a reader with honest interest in the character who wants to learn, then that's another story.
Statements like this make it sound like there's only two kinds of readers; those that follow the stories on a weekly/monthly basis and those that only read a comic every leap year, and that's not true, there's a THIRD kind of reader, the one that picks up a comic, becomes interested and, eventually, begins following the story every week/month.
Casual readers can become regular readers just like regular readers can become casual readers...
Ah, I see. So, if I like a character like Superman and I wanna follow his weekly adventures, I must do a lot of research to understand the world he lives in. If I don't keep in mind stuff like Luthor's convulted story, something that has little importance nowadays, I'm being irresponsible as a regular reader.
Don't you think that the fact that Superman's continuity is so convulted has a lot to do with how little accesible the books are? The 1999 semi-revamp attracted a lot of people becuase it seemed to be a new beggining... but it wasn't, the old stuff is still there, they're just avoiding it (in most cases), and that's the problem. It can't be a real revamp unless the old stuff is wiped.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
I don't like the Waid that's writing BR, he killed the good Waid that wrote Flash and JLA Year One. This Waid is a a Silver Age fanboy with a hard on for Superman, a fanboy that thinks that Superman is a God (irony being what is it, that description fits Gog, a Waid creation, perfectly).
Well, you're a modern age fanboy with a hard on for Superman, one that thinks Superman is Man. What's the point? They're different points of view. Why is the one you like more valid than the Waid likes?
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
In 99 they got completely derailed. One week things were one way and the next they changed.
Remember, before Eddie and Loeb came along, Luthor owned the Planet, then in ONE issue all of that changed. The building changed, the owner changed, the characters changed.
Things DID change in the blink of an eye, that can't be denied.
Read the comics, compare the continuity from Superman 150 to 151 and you'll see that the change was a very radical one.
Even before that the comics sucked. Even Kesel sucked. In fact, that's why the semi-revamp was done; the comics sucked big time. They sucked even more after that, I agree.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
If a writer wants his idea to be ADDED to the continuity then that means he doesn't want his idea to RE write continuity.
I know... I was saying that is a valid option. Not the only choice.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
If that happens to be the case, if the writer wants to tell a story IN continuity then he has to RESPECT that continuity with the same kind of respect he'd want people to give HIS story.
What if he doesn't want his story to be respected in continuity? Then he can just fuck up? Writers like Morrison care more about telling a good story than in fitting it to a strict continuity. Look at Animalman. How does the last part fit into continuity? What happened and what didn't happen? It's a big mess, but that's not important, what's important is that it's a good story.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
In other words, the whinners should stop whinning and reliaze that OTHER people got to the characters before they did...
So they can't tell their stories. As simple as that. Your story is brilliant? Whoops, doesn't fit. Too bad.
It's funny that you call them whinners. You're whinning too right now, because there's people that don't respect your precious long time continuity. And, if you don't mind me saying, your reason for whinning is a lot more anal-retentive than theirs.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Crisis aside, it's not different, but you CAN'T ignore Crisis, no matter how hard you may try.
It happened, accept it...
Ah, right. It's cosmic event that really happened and rules our lives to this day.
IT'S JUST A FUCKING STORY!
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Well, you asked about MY version of the story, not other people's version...
And it's related in that you accused me of defending MoS because it's the version 'I' want to count, when that's not true, not in the sense that you mean.
I want it to count because it's what was published after Crisis, the same way I'd defend a version with a million Kryptonian survivors if that's what had come after Crisis.
We've been through this before, why won't it stick in your mind? lol
I just can't accept that there's a guy that defends stories not for good they are, but for how valid they are continuity-wise. If a comic about Superman being made of poo had come after crisis instead of MoS, would you defend that?
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
I don't need to get in his head, actions speak louder than words. Just look at the books...
Assumptions.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Who said anything about disrpecting continuity? I said ADD my story to the original plot, not REPLACE...
But it's something that's been covered 100%. The story that told the moment you wanna tell is told second by second. There's no free space. What do you do?
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
They do. Besides, for a long while every Superman comic was tied to the next, so there's barely any "free" space in that period. Alan Scott (for example) has lots of free space to spare.
Weird, I've been reading the books for over 11 years and I know that there are plenty of spaces to be filled.
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Ah. Was the Hawkworld series any good?
Haven't read either the mini or the monthly.
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Ah, I see. So, if I like a character like Superman and I wanna follow his weekly adventures, I must do a lot of research to understand the world he lives in. If I don't keep in mind stuff like Luthor's convulted story, something that has little importance nowadays, I'm being irresponsible as a regular reader.
Don't you think that the fact that Superman's continuity is so convulted has a lot to do with how little accesible the books are? The 1999 semi-revamp attracted a lot of people becuase it seemed to be a new beggining... but it wasn't, the old stuff is still there, they're just avoiding it (in most cases), and that's the problem. It can't be a real revamp unless the old stuff is wiped.
And if I wanted to read X-Men I'd have to do research on what's happened.
If I wanted to play Football I'd have to learn the rules.
If I wanted to play Magic the Gathering I'd have to learn the rules.
If I want to know what's going on in episode 15 of 24 I have to know what happened in the previous 14...
What's your point? That Superman comics aren't simplistic enough for 2 year olds and simple minded people to understand?
Who says they have to be?
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Well, you're a modern age fanboy with a hard on for Superman, one that thinks Superman is Man. What's the point? They're different points of view. Why is the one you like more valid than the Waid likes?.
You said it, I'm modern, he's not...
His interpretation of the character is neither 'fresh' or 'modern', points you made very clear are important for the character to work...
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Even before that the comics sucked. Even Kesel sucked. In fact, that's why the semi-revamp was done; the comics sucked big time. They sucked even more after that, I agree.
The comics started to suck a year before Eddie came along, that's what gave him the opening to take over, but they got WORSE after he came along, which gave Waid the opening for his outdated reboot.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
I said it got close. Batman and GL are the only franchises that get close to Superman... those two and the JL franchise, which has one constant, J'Onn J'Onzz.
Maybe you didn't understand what I said. I mean this: put every in-continuity Green Lantenr comic published since Emeral Dawn together. Consider what you get one big story. If you compare that big story to the one you get adding every in-continuity Superman comic since MoS, you'll find that Superman's is two or three times as big as GL's, and way more convulted.
The only character that gets close to Superman is Bat-Man. I don't read Bat-Man so I couldn't tell you why it hasn't deranged as much as Superman. Maybe it has to do with the fact that Bat-Man's story has a lot of "free" space, I don't know.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Like we already agreed, the last year of the Jurgens crew was a bad one. Notice how I say that the problems started FIVE years ago, when Jurgens was still there...
Right, because of the convulted backstory they themselves had created.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
MoS is not the problem, wanting to do the retro thing is the problem.
MoS is not limiting in any way, and even if it were then the same would apply to Year One, Emerald Dawn and Perez's WW relaunch, and those aren't being 'updated'.
No, MoS itself isn't the problem... it's MoS in addition to everything that's come after it. Maybe you think it's fun to research and read every damn comic so you the whole story is kept in mind when new stuff happens, but how do you think a new reader feels? How do you think a new writer feels? What if the writer's vision just doesn't coincide with what's been established before? What if there's no way of modifying his story to "make it fit" without deleting key elements of his creation? Should he just take his ideas, no matter how good they are, and shove them up his arse?
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quote:
Originally posted by Conner Kent:
First off I like "Birthright" ok.
I just don't want it to replace "Man of Steel" just for the hell of it.
"Man of Steel" was done because DC just cleaned house with "Crisis on Infinite Earths" so they relaunched their flagship character.
That is the difference between the two.
Like I said I am enjoying "Birthright".
And what's the reason behind Crisis? The comics sucked. The backstory was too convulted, very little could be done. How much do the Superman comics suck nowadays? A lot. What needs to be done, then? A new reboot. Maybe Birthright isn't the way to go, I don't know, but a new reboot is needed.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Weird, I've been reading the books for over 11 years and I know that there are plenty of spaces to be filled.
You know what they are because you've been reading the books for 11 years. And if Superman has one "free" year, Alan Scott has a decade (just an example... Alan Scott has way more than a decade).
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
And if I wanted to read X-Men I'd have to do research on what's happened.
If I wanted to play Football I'd have to learn the rules.
If I wanted to play Magic the Gathering I'd have to learn the rules.
If I want to know what's going on in episode 15 of 24 I have to know what happened in the previous 14...
What's your point? That Superman comics aren't simplistic enough for 2 year olds and simple minded people to understand?
Who says they have to be?
They don't have to be simplistic, they have to be accesible. For readers and for writers. Maybe you like researching a comic's history as if it was a sport or a role playing game, but that's you.
You bring up 24: I agree with what you say, if I want to know what's going on in chapter 15 I have to know what happened in the previous chapters... But that's only fourteen chapters, not 17 years of weekly comics. Big difference. 24 is accesible, Superman isn't.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
You said it, I'm modern, he's not...
His interpretation of the character is neither 'fresh' or 'modern', points you made very clear are important for the character to work...
By that point of view, as soon as MoS gets old (I personally think it alredy has, and I bet most of my generation thinks the same) it has to be replaced? I think so too. It can't last forever.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
The comics started to suck a year before Eddie came along, that's what gave him the opening to take over, but they got WORSE after he came along, which gave Waid the opening for his outdated reboot.
No, sir. Death of Clark Kent.
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I think the S-book problems started when Byrne left!
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quote:
Originally posted by woodstock:
I think the S-book problems started when Byrne left!
That didn't help.
The resolution to the execution fo the Phantom Zone criminals that Stern and the others came up with was very good but I'd love to know what Byrne would have done if given the chance.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
Maybe you didn't understand what I said. I mean this: put every in-continuity Green Lantenr comic published since Emeral Dawn together. Consider what you get one big story. If you compare that big story to the one you get adding every in-continuity Superman comic since MoS, you'll find that Superman's is two or three times as big as GL's, and way more convulted.
The only character that gets close to Superman is Bat-Man. I don't read Bat-Man so I couldn't tell you why it hasn't deranged as much as Superman. Maybe it has to do with the fact that Bat-Man's story has a lot of "free" space, I don't know.
Spider-Man, the X-Men, Daredevil, Captain America and many more.
These are characters whose origins, unlike Superman's, date back to the 1960's. They have been modernized but never changed in a radical way, not how Waid is doing with BR right now.
MoS happened because, unlike Marvel, DC had made a mess of its continuity by having too many of them running around at the same time.
If Spider-Man can exist for over 40 years with only one origin which seldomly gets mentioned and when it is is only in passing and to modernize it slightly, why can't Superman have one that's only 17 years old?
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Right, because of the convulted backstory they themselves had created.
Not so, they just got burned out, it happens.
Stan Lee did 100 issues of Fantastic Four with Kirby. Where they convulted? Yes, and to this day they are praised for what they did there.
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No, MoS itself isn't the problem... it's MoS in addition to everything that's come after it. Maybe you think it's fun to research and read every damn comic so you the whole story is kept in mind when new stuff happens, but how do you think a new reader feels? How do you think a new writer feels? What if the writer's vision just doesn't coincide with what's been established before? What if there's no way of modifying his story to "make it fit" without deleting key elements of his creation? Should he just take his ideas, no matter how good they are, and shove them up his arse?
Depends on the writer's ego.
Geoff Johns manages to make his stories work WITH continuity, other writers who feel they are above it can't handle it so they make it a mission in life to tell people how bad continuity is...
It's all in the ego...
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
You know what they are because you've been reading the books for 11 years. And if Superman has one "free" year, Alan Scott has a decade (just an example... Alan Scott has way more than a decade).
What about Spider-Man? Since he didn't experience a Crisis his continuity is longer than Superman's, with more stories that are still considered to be in continuity.
JMS manages to use this continuity perfectly, yet Waid can't do the same with Superman...
quote:
They don't have to be simplistic, they have to be accesible. For readers and for writers. Maybe you like researching a comic's history as if it was a sport or a role playing game, but that's you.
You bring up 24: I agree with what you say, if I want to know what's going on in chapter 15 I have to know what happened in the previous chapters... But that's only fourteen chapters, not 17 years of weekly comics. Big difference. 24 is accesible, Superman isn't.
Superman is accesible, the books just suck because they are outdated, they fit better in the 70's than today.
quote:
By that point of view, as soon as MoS gets old (I personally think it alredy has, and I bet most of my generation thinks the same) it has to be replaced? I think so too. It can't last forever.
So far it has lasted perfectly for 17 years, until now, until Waid came along and fucked it up, till Berganza fucked up the books. MoS has NOTHING, not ONE thing to do with ANTYHING that's happened in the comics in over five years.
quote:
No, sir. Death of Clark Kent.
Death of Clark Kent wasn't that bad. I found Kenny Braverman to be a very interesting character.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
I know... I was saying that is a valid option. Not the only choice.
Right, there are Elseworlds too...
There are two choices: either it's in continuity or it's not.
If the writer wants to do a story set IN continuity then he has to respect what came before, not whinne about how something that happened 10 years earlier can't let him have it HIS way.
These whinners have to accept that they came last, that other people came before them and they can't ignore what they did out of ego, that what they want to do first was already done before.
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What if he doesn't want his story to be respected in continuity? Then he can just fuck up? Writers like Morrison care more about telling a good story than in fitting it to a strict continuity.
Writers like Morrison think that sibilings want to fuck each other in the ass, should he be allowed to tell that kind of stories too?
And if a writer doesn't want his story to be in continuity then it doesn't have to be, he can do whatever the fuck he wants with it, but if the story IS in continuity then he better fucking respect it instead of whine about it...
quote:
So they can't tell their stories. As simple as that. Your story is brilliant? Whoops, doesn't fit. Too bad.
It's funny that you call them whinners. You're whinning too right now, because there's people that don't respect your precious long time continuity. And, if you don't mind me saying, your reason for whinning is a lot more anal-retentive than theirs.
Do you or don't you understand the difference between stories that are in continuity and those that aren't?
If a writer wants his story to be IN continuity then he has to accept and respect that stories that are similar to his idea may have already been told before.
If he wants it to be outside it then that's his problem.
But YOU made it clear, these writers DON'T want stories that are out of continuity because then they 'don't matter'...
So don't fucking tell me that this is about 'quality' when you know perfectly well that this is about ego!
You're the one that said it, not me. There are Elseworlds but they don't count because then the story doesn't matter, that's a fact.
These whinners want their stories to BE in continuity so that people will talk about them for years and years but they refuse to respect what came before if it's in their way.
Quality has NOTHING to do with this, it's ALL about continuity. They want in and are willing to do and say WHATEVER they want to do it.
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Ah, right. It's cosmic event that really happened and rules our lives to this day.
IT'S JUST A FUCKING STORY!
Go back to the Silver Age, when stories didn't have respercutions.
Today they do...
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I just can't accept that there's a guy that defends stories not for good they are, but for how valid they are continuity-wise. If a comic about Superman being made of poo had come after crisis instead of MoS, would you defend that?
I find MoS to be a better story than BR. I would still defend BR if it had come first because there's no reason to create waves now, there's no reason to disrupt the origin when the origin has NOTHING to do with the current problems.
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Assumptions.
Facts.
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But it's something that's been covered 100%. The story that told the moment you wanna tell is told second by second. There's no free space. What do you do?
I don't tell my story, I swallow my ego.
Of course, I have NEVER found a story that would fit your criteria...
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Spider-Man, the X-Men, Daredevil, Captain America and many more.
These are characters whose origins, unlike Superman's, date back to the 1960's. They have been modernized but never changed in a radical way, not how Waid is doing with BR right now.
MoS happened because, unlike Marvel, DC had made a mess of its continuity by having too many of them running around at the same time.
If Spider-Man can exist for over 40 years with only one origin which seldomly gets mentioned and when it is is only in passing and to modernize it slightly, why can't Superman have one that's only 17 years old?
Because Spidey's is very simplistic. It's "I'm a nerd. Oh, I've got superpowers. I fucked up. Now I'm a superhero." The rest of it is Spidey being Spidey.
DC has put too much into Supes's past before doning the cape and boots. Plus, Supes has appeared in more books over the years than Spidey. Superman has amassed more continuity in 17 years than Spidey has in 40.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Geoff Johns manages to make his stories work WITH continuity, other writers who feel they are above it can't handle it so they make it a mission in life to tell people how bad continuity is...
Johns has the luxury of handling all of his character's continuity at the moment (with the exception of Wally). He covers all the books that Jay Garrick, Impulse, Hawkman, Wildcat, and the other characters appear in regularly. Yes, a lot of Golden Age characters are popping up more and more across the DCU due to the JSA's popularity; but he still holds all the cards with them. As I said before, the continuity that Johns uses for the JSA actually comes from the 80's and not the 40's. That's given him a lot of levarge room for playing around with the likes of Jay Garrick, Alan Scott, and Black Adam.
The only one he had to worry about was Hawkman with the whole Thangarian thing. What he did was just as much circumventing continuity as much as it was adhereing to it. He played around with it and made a story that works and satisfies all the questions that DC has left in the air for years. Personally, I read the story and liked it too much to even ask, "Hey, I wonder if this is in line with DCU continuity for Hawkman. I'd better read all the old Hawkman and JLA back issues to make sure." Johns is good at making a good story and slightly twisting the characters to make them interesting for him.
Case in point. He hates it when Tim Drake just gets on the computer and does an internet search. That's a job for Barbara. Yet, that's what Dick has been written as doing over and over again for years. In the last issue of Teen Titans, Robin says he's going to get on the net. Instead he sneaks out. He changed the perspective of Tim Drake to fit his own personal philosophy of superheroes.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
It's all in the ego...
Are you saying Byrne doesn't have an ego?
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quote:
Originally posted by Conner Kent:
Disco Steve, I can see you come at people with the mentality of a 2 year old with ADHD.
Well, I do like to masturbate in public... thanks for noticing, you lovely fuck-muffin.
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quote:
Originally posted by Disco Steve:
Well, I do like to masturbate in public... thanks for noticing, you lovely fuck-muffin.
Pathetic
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Please forgive me for not reading all 7 pages of this thread. I was reading page one, and I thought I would comment about the 2 issues of Birthright that I read.
While there is a story to it, Waid just doesn't get into Clarks personality. I find the story simply boring. Nothing more.
Let me put it another way: I don't care what happens, or in this case, what happened to Clark to make him become the Superman he is today.
At least, not the way Waid is telling it in Brithrtight.
I am not a Superman fan. I think Superman needs a major revamp, and they need to get away from some of the things that Byrne and Jurgans put into his character.
But, I was expecting a great story in Birthtright, not a bore. Waid is not giving me a reason to turn the page. Hell, he doesn't give me a reason to look at the next panel. It's just plain boring.
His work on Kingdom Come is amazing. I love his Fantastic Four. I never thought I would read FF, and then my friend made me read Waid's revamp. WOW! He gave them life. He made them interesting. Too bad he was fired.
Honestly, the guy has major talent. But, I just don't think his heart was in Birthright. I don't know how else to explain it. I was looking foward to an origin that got away from Byrne.
I would love it if Waid wrote a Batman story, but he has said he just doesn't care about the character enough to write one. That's fine. I appreciate his honesty. I thought his portrayal of Batman in KC was right on, but, it was really a Superman story. Superman is supposed to be the character Waid cares about.
I don't know what happened, but, IMHO, Birthright should not have left the editors desk. It should not have been printed.
Not because it goes against Bryne. No. Because it is boring. Because he doesn't make me care about the characters at all. Because everything he writes is forced and cliched.
The truth is, all of the writers currently on Superman are just as guilty. So, other than writing something a little different from Byrne's origin, I don't understand why Superman fans aren't eating this up.
Forced dialogue filled with cliches are all the same in my book.
Just my thoughts.
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You ignored my post, Conner Kent; I'm hurt.
This isn't an aggressive board. There's a wide variety of readers here, most of whom can agree to disagree, so long as you don't start off by insulting people and calling them "infantile" for liking a story that just happens to humorously involve an animal with super powers. This is why Man of the Atom isn't terribly popular around here. We tried stating our case with civility(several times), and that didn't work. We're now convinced that the man is hopeless, and we see no reason to treat him with respect, when he never did the same for us in the first place.
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Well Amimalman I did repond to your post in a way, I said tat I knew MoTA.
MoTA and I differ in our opinions on quite a few things. Instead of us arguing over those differences we instead discuss them and agree to disagree. Neither one of us resorting to personal attacks or name calling.
I made an observation and stated my views, and opinions, and I was greeted with "Fuck You" or somemthing to that effect. Hmmmmm, sounds inviting. Oh yeah and my personal fave "STFU NEWBIE", yeah real friendly.
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Yeah, that was a classic, wasn't it?
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Yeah but if you wanted to share a pic of yourself, you didn't have to add a caption to it.
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![[no no no]](graemlins/nono.gif)
