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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
NOW the character sucks. He spews 'Great Rao' as often as you sneeze.
Now the charater is now who he was after Crisis, he's a poor attempt to imitate the character from the 60's.
That doesn't mean the origin from 86 is flawed, just the comics as they are done today.
As usual, you're not paying attention. I never said the origin from 86 was flawed. I like it, actually. But the story started then has been stretched for too long, and it shows in the quality of the current comics.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Which is it, either Waid has more freedom or DC has their eyes on him so he doesn't change continuity behind their back.
Make up your mind.
Whu? When I said DC didn't realize Waid was changing continuity I said becuase that was the conclusion that would be drawn from your arguments. It's obvious that he's being given more freedom by DC, otherwise Birthright wouldn't exists as it is today.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
But the characters HAVE grown.
I challenge you to compared Perez's Wonder Woman, Byrne's Superman and Miller's Batman with the more current books and tell me that the characters aren't different.
This excuse that all characters have to be reinterpreted to last longer is false.
Look at the 90's Flash Gordon toon where he was a teenager, it failed to last and it failed to leave a mark of any kind.
I prefer projects like Phantom 2040 and the Phantom movie, which play to the strenghts of the concepts than projects like Stillbirth which allow writers to ego to do whatever the hell they want to without regard to anything or anyone else.
I don't know about Wonder Woman and Bat-Man, I don't read their comics. Superman HAS changed since 1986, but not much. I know he changed a bit between 1986 and 1999. From 1999 to nowadays, I have no idea. You have read those comics, tell me, if he has changed, have those changes been for good?
"This excuse that all characters have to be reinterpreted to last longer is false."
So Man of Steel was a mistake?
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
Whu? When I said DC didn't realize Waid was changing continuity I said becuase that was the conclusion that would be drawn from your arguments. It's obvious that he's being given more freedom by DC, otherwise Birthright wouldn't exists as it is today.
Dude, they don't know how Stillbirth exists today.
First Waid says it's in continuity, then he says it's not, then he says it is, then the editors say it is.
They have no fucking idea of what they are doing.
And, again, is Waid being given more freedom or being watched? It can't be both.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
I don't know about Wonder Woman and Bat-Man, I don't read their comics. Superman HAS changed since 1986, but not much. I know he changed a bit between 1986 and 1999. From 1999 to nowadays, I have no idea. You have read those comics, tell me, if he has changed, have those changes been for good?
No, they haven't. It's those changes that have caused Birthright to happen because they fucked up the character.
Birthright isn't happening to clean that mess up, it's happening because the editor needs a hit since he pretty much killed the franchise in comic book format.
Waid is taking this as an opportunity to undo something that happened 17 years ago.
quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
"This excuse that all characters have to be reinterpreted to last longer is false."
So Man of Steel was a mistake?
Man of Steel wasn't a reintretation, it was a reboot because the character had become a piece of shit.
Read what I quoted above. The editor gave his reasons for Man of Steel, what are Berganza's?
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
And you didn't answer my question. Suppouse Man of Steel appears today, under the same conditions of Birthright. Would you hate it?
Ah, I thought you meant what if Birthright had happeend back then.
If Man of Steel happeend today the same way Birthright is happening, I would condemn it as I do Stillbirth.
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"Stillbirth"...
Heh. I'll probably steal that one.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Dude, they don't know how Stillbirth exists today.
First Waid says it's in continuity, then he says it's not, then he says it is, then the editors say it is.
They have no fucking idea of what they are doing.
And, again, is Waid being given more freedom or being watched? It can't be both.
Again, he's being given more freedom. The being watched thing is what your arguments would imply. That's how I proved them wrong. The Editors know what they're doing. This is SUPERMAN, DC's top Superhero, they don't give a writer the kind of freedom Waid obviously has if they haven't approved it. And they are EDITORS, it's their job to realize this kinda thing.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
Again, he's being given more freedom. The being watched thing is what your arguments would imply. That's how I proved them wrong. The Editors know what they're doing. This is SUPERMAN, DC's top Superhero, they don't give a writer the kind of freedom Waid obviously has if they haven't approved it. And they are EDITORS, it's their job to realize this kinda thing.
And while giving Waid all that freedom they fuck up the rest of the DC Universe.
Swell.
quote:
1986. Only a couple of years before ACTION COMICS WEEKLY had destroyed lives, DC had completely revamped its internal continuity and history, particularly with regards to Superman. It was a massive undertaking that had undeniable left fandom with a stronger, more cohesive "DC Universe"... but there were the occasional growing pains as writers and editors sometimes struggled to separate New Continuity from the Old.
...
The New DC Earth hadn't completely cooled. New foundations were still being molten and fluid. Back in '88, despite ourselves, we'd sometimes published something in one comic only to contradict it in the following week's batch of issues.
Guess who wrote that...
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quote:
Originally posted by Wednesday:
"Stillbirth"...
Heh. I'll probably steal that one.
Lol, take it.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
No, they haven't. It's those changes that have caused Birthright to happen because they fucked up the character.
Exactly. And why are the changes not for good? Because the story is getting too old. I can't be stretched any longer. The story is being harmed by it's own continuity, in the sense that the writers don't have enough freedom.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Birthright isn't happening to clean that mess up, it's happening because the editor needs a hit since he pretty much killed the franchise in comic book format.
And the powers that be at DC are letting him publish anything to clean up that mess, without caring if it changes the continuity? The fact that it's pretty much a revamp is just a coincidence?
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Waid is taking this as an opportunity to undo something that happened 17 years ago.
So it's just a coincidence that the project chosen by the editor to boost the sales is a revamp? He doesn't really realize what he's doing? Oh, and the fact that all the books have new writers with a new view on the character, that's a coincidence too? The fact these new books obviously aren't very concerned about the old continuity, another coincidence?
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Man of Steel wasn't a reintretation, it was a reboot because the character had become a piece of shit.
The character was interpreted again. There you go, it's a reinterpretation and a revamp.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Read what I quoted above. The editor gave his reasons for Man of Steel, what are Berganza's?
Same as Man of Steel. The character has become a piece of shit.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Ah, I thought you meant what if Birthright had happeend back then.
If Man of Steel happeend today the same way Birthright is happening, I would condemn it as I do Stillbirth.
So, it would be a good story, but you wouldn't enjoy it. I see. That's all I wanted to know, thank you very much.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
And while giving Waid all that freedom they fuck up the rest of the DC Universe.
Swell
You mean fuck up the continuity. The whole point of the thread where this discussion started is that there are thing more important than continuity. Like... GOOD STORIES. When continuity gets in the way of telling a good story, it's time to tell continuity to fuck off.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
quote:
1986. Only a couple of years before ACTION COMICS WEEKLY had destroyed lives, DC had completely revamped its internal continuity and history, particularly with regards to Superman. It was a massive undertaking that had undeniable left fandom with a stronger, more cohesive "DC Universe"... but there were the occasional growing pains as writers and editors sometimes struggled to separate New Continuity from the Old.
...
The New DC Earth hadn't completely cooled. New foundations were still being molten and fluid. Back in '88, despite ourselves, we'd sometimes published something in one comic only to contradict it in the following week's batch of issues.
Guess who wrote that...
No idea.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
Exactly. And why are the changes not for good? Because the story is getting too old. I can't be stretched any longer. The story is being harmed by it's own continuity, in the sense that the writers don't have enough freedom.
Bullshit.
Wonder Woman's and Batman's Post Crisis origins are just as old and Batman is number 1 in the charts WITHOUT some ego maniac writer changing the origin.
quote:
And the powers that be at DC are letting him publish anything to clean up that mess, without caring if it changes the continuity? The fact that it's pretty much a revamp is just a coincidence?
Waid, now, claims to be doing what he wants without any care about continuity. He claims DC is allowing him to do as much as he wants to do in a story that is separate from continuity.
Meanwhile, DC is saying that Birthright IS continuity, and last year Waid said the same thing.
quote:
So it's just a coincidence that the project chosen by the editor to boost the sales is a revamp? He doesn't really realize what he's doing? Oh, and the fact that all the books have new writers with a new view on the character, that's a coincidence too? The fact these new books obviously aren't very concerned about the old continuity, another coincidence?
Waid now claims that the project is not a revamp, that he wasn't hired to do a revamp but to do Ultimate Superman.
He claims that it's DC that's making the change.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
The character was interpreted again. There you go, it's a reinterpretation and a revamp.
It's not a revamp, and even if it was, it was more justified than Stillbirth will ever be,.
quote:
Same as Man of Steel. The character has become a piece of shit. [/QB]
No he hasn't, he can still be saved without a reboot.
Look at what the writers are planning to do next year. None of them has any plans that are in any way connected to Stillbirth.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
So, it would be a good story, but you wouldn't enjoy it. I see. That's all I wanted to know, thank you very much.
You talk as if 'good' was a universal concept accepted by every one on Earth.
It's not, regardless of what you may have heard.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
You mean fuck up the continuity. The whole point of the thread where this discussion started is that there are thing more important than continuity. Like... GOOD STORIES. When continuity gets in the way of telling a good story, it's time to tell continuity to fuck off.
Good, regardless of what you and King Krypton may want to belive, is NOT a universal standard accepted by every living being on the planet.
Good is subjective to every single individual, even if a staggaring number of people agree on one story being good it doesn't mean everyone else has to.
quote:
No idea.
Waid.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Bullshit.
Wonder Woman's and Batman's Post Crisis origins are just as old and Batman is number 1 in the charts WITHOUT some ego maniac writer changing the origin.
Continuity is working better for Bat-Man than it did for Superman. Eventually, it'll be rebooted again, but for the moment there's no need.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Waid, now, claims to be doing what he wants without any care about continuity. He claims DC is allowing him to do as much as he wants to do in a story that is separate from continuity.
Meanwhile, DC is saying that Birthright IS continuity, and last year Waid said the same thing.
What this shows, is that continuity isn't a great concern right now. It got in the way of telling good Superman stories so they told it to fuck off.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Waid now claims that the project is not a revamp, that he wasn't hired to do a revamp but to do Ultimate Superman.
He claims that it's DC that's making the change.
Good for DC.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
It's not a revamp, and even if it was, it was more justified than Stillbirth will ever be.
Why isn't Man of Steel a revamp? It's pretty much the definition of revamp.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
No he hasn't, he can still be saved without a reboot.
Look at what the writers are planning to do next year. None of them has any plans that are in any way connected to Stillbirth.
So what? They're still being revamped.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
You talk as if 'good' was a universal concept accepted by every one on Earth.
It's not, regardless of what you may have heard.
The point is, now you think that Man of Steel is a good story, but if it had been published under another context, you wouldn't. That's fucked up. A good story is a good story.
(Please don't take that last line out of context. I know it's gonna be hard to resist the temptation, but please don't. I hope you're smart enough to see that I'm not saying that everyone should like what I like. I'm saying that people should like whatever the fuck they like, regardless of the context, the presence of caped dogs, or the fact that the story is told in 8 pages)
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
Continuity is working better for Bat-Man than it did for Superman. Eventually, it'll be rebooted again, but for the moment there's no need.
And continuity is working for Superman.
I doubt Batman's continuity will change as stupidly as it's being done with Superman.
quote:
What this shows, is that continuity isn't a great concern right now. It got in the way of telling good Superman stories so they told it to fuck off.
Again, good is subjective, not a standard.
Continuity is a tool, not a problem unless the writers are too stupid to use it.
Johns uses continuity in every one of his stories, does that mean they're not good?
quote:
Good for DC.
Sure it is.
quote:
Why isn't Man of Steel a revamp? It's pretty much the definition of revamp
Entry Word: revamp
Function: verb
Text: 1
Synonyms MEND 2, do up, fix, overhaul, patch, rebuild, recondition, reconstruct, repair, vamp
2
Synonyms REVISE, redraft, redraw, restyle, rework, rewrite, work over
Hey, you're right, it is a revamp. MoS meets all of those definitions.
Stillbirth doesn't as it doesn't
Do up, fix, overhaul, patch, rebuild, recondition, reconstruct, repair, vamp, redraft, redraw, restyle, rework, rewrite, work over
anything, it only combines everything that came before.
quote:
So what? They're still being revamped.
It's not a revamp, it doesn't meet any of the above definitions of the word.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
The point is, now you think that Man of Steel is a good story, but if it had been published under another context, you wouldn't. That's fucked up. A good story is a good story.
(Please don't take that last line out of context. I know it's gonna be hard to resist the temptation, but please don't. I hope you're smart enough to see that I'm not saying that everyone should like what I like. I'm saying that people should like whatever the fuck they like, regardless of the context, the presence of caped dogs, or the fact that the story is told in 8 pages)
Man of Steel is a story that came out of circumnstance and oportunity, so of course context plays apart on the quality of it, just like it does with Stillbirth.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Good, regardless of what you and King Krypton may want to belive, is NOT a universal standard accepted by every living being on the planet.
Good is subjective to every single individual, even if a staggaring number of people agree on one story being good it doesn't mean everyone else has to.
Yes, it's subjective. Some people enjoy stories by their own atributes, others judge stories by outside factors, usage of certain despised elements, and (!) the number of pages used. I have nothing against you not liking a story, but it pisses me off when you judge it based on something that isn't the story itself.
NOW you say that not everyone coincides in what good is, but I remember clearly that you said that the Silver Age Superman is infantile and that everyone who likes it is. I could go look for that remark, if you like, and I'm sure that in the way I'll into several other remarks of that kind.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Waid.
And? What did you see in that paragraph that was so important.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
And continuity is working for Superman.
I doubt Batman's continuity will change as stupidly as it's being done with Superman.
It's not working for Superman, look at the current comics.
The way it's being changed nowadays is the same way is the same way it was changed in 1986. The only difference is that DC hasn't an even to justify it now, because, in the end, event or no event it's the same thing.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Again, good is subjective, not a standard.
You said yourself that the current Superman comics suck.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Continuity is a tool, not a problem unless the writers are too stupid to use it.
Waid used continuity brilliantly in his Flash run. It being a problem has nothing to do the writer's mental abilities. It has to do with it becoming a limitation for the writers.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Johns uses continuity in every one of his stories, does that mean they're not good?
No, because it's not a restriction in Flash. There wasn't one in-continuity Flash comic every week for ten years.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Sure it is.
Finally something we agree on.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Entry Word: revamp
Function: verb
Text: 1
Synonyms MEND 2, do up, fix, overhaul, patch, rebuild, recondition, reconstruct, repair, vamp
2
Synonyms REVISE, redraft, redraw, restyle, rework, rewrite, work over
Hey, you're right, it is a revamp. MoS meets all of those definitions.
Stillbirth doesn't as it doesn't
Do up, fix, overhaul, patch, rebuild, recondition, reconstruct, repair, vamp, redraft, redraw, restyle, rework, rewrite, work over
anything, it only combines everything that came before.
And fixes it by doing so.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
It's not a revamp, it doesn't meet any of the above definitions of the word.
It does.
In the other discussion, your main problem was that you were judging a book without having read it. In this discussion your problem is that you can't bash Birthright and bash Man of Steel, because they have pretty much the same purpose, except you like one and you don't like the other.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Man of Steel is a story that came out of circumnstance and oportunity, so of course context plays apart on the quality of it, just like it does with Stillbirth.
So if it's justified it's a good story and if it isn't it's a bad one?
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
NOW you say that not everyone coincides in what good is, but I remember clearly that you said that the Silver Age Superman is infantile and that everyone who likes it is. I could go look for that remark, if you like, and I'm sure that in the way I'll into several other remarks of that kind.
The SA Superman IS infantile and people who like that are stuck with that interpretation of the character.
See, it's people like King Krypton who open threads about how continuity is bad and start calling those that like it Continuity Taliban.
It's not people who like continuity that open threads calling those that don't like it Nazi Pieces of Shit, now is it?
People like King Krypton must be infantile, they act like it.
quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
And? What did you see in that paragraph that was so important.
Read it again.
He blames Action Comics Weekly for 'destroying lives' yet he does Stillbirth, which is gonna have the same effect on writers a year from now if not before.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
It's not working for Superman, look at the current comics.
The way it's being changed nowadays is the same way is the same way it was changed in 1986. The only difference is that DC hasn't an even to justify it now, because, in the end, event or no event it's the same thing.
Did you or didn't you say you havent' read the Superman comics since 99?
I've been reading them non-stop since 86, don't you think I'd know better thn you if continuity is a problem with the books today?
It's not, it's ignorant writers who are trying to recapture the past to please readers like King Krypton and others who are stuck in the 60's.
Hell, I dare you to find ANY comic published in the last five years that's used ANYTHING from the 86-99 continuity.
Even an ignorant ass like Krypton will admit that they have been ignoring it.
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You said yourself that the current Superman comics suck.
Which they do, but not because of continuiy.
It's not an opinion thta they suck, or I would have phrased it as such, it's a fact.
If they didn't suck then why bring new people to work on them next year?
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Waid used continuity brilliantly in his Flash run. It being a problem has nothing to do the writer's mental abilities. It has to do with it becoming a limitation for the writers.
Continuuiy is not a limitation unless the writer chooses to make it one.
Geoff Johns writes three DC series and uses continuity from the last 17 years. Is he limited? Nope.
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No, because it's not a restriction in Flash. There wasn't one in-continuity Flash comic every week for ten years
.
That has nothing to do with it.
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Finally something we agree on..
LMAO
It's called sarcasm! lol
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And fixes it by doing so.
It's not fixing anything.
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It does.
In the other discussion, your main problem was that you were judging a book without having read it. In this discussion your problem is that you can't bash Birthright and bash Man of Steel, because they have pretty much the same purpose, except you like one and you don't like the other.
No they don't.
Man of Steel fixed Superman after Crisis.
What's happened, related to continuity, that would justify Stillbirth'
NOT ONE DAMN THING...
Like I said, even King Krypton will admit that the Super books have been ignoring past continuity since Loeb came along.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
So if it's justified it's a good story and if it isn't it's a bad one?
Exactly.
Unless, of course, Man of Steel could stand on its own outside continuity. In that case it can be judged on its own merits.
Heh, I'm reminded of people who don't like it when a new character replaces an old one on a TV show, like say Jonas Quinn on Stargate.
Some people liked him, other hated him. Those that hated him hated him not because of who he was but because he was replacing Daniel Jackson.
Had the character of Jonas existed independently of Jackson, as in without having to take his place, I'm sure those same people that hated him would have come to like him for what he had to offer the series.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
The SA Superman IS infantile and people who like that are stuck with that interpretation of the character.
Infantile in YOUR opinion, not necessarily in mine. See what I'm saying?
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
See, it's people like King Krypton who open threads about how continuity is bad and start calling those that like it Continuity Taliban.
It's just a name. You also insult him for liking it.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
It's not people who like continuity that open threads calling those that don't like it Nazi Pieces of Shit, now is it?
People like King Krypton must be infantile, they act like it.
Geez, that's just King's style, don't make such a fuss about it. You call him a whiner, he calls you a Sycophant. Whatever, let's suppuose King IS infantile... does that mean everyone who doesn't like continuity is infantile too? You're separating people "those who like continuity" and "those who don't like continuity" as if in that depended their whole character.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Read it again.
He blames Action Comics Weekly for 'destroying lives' yet he does Stillbirth, which is gonna have the same effect on writers a year from now if not before.
...how do you get that from it?
I think he meant that Action Weekly was a big mess. And it had nothing to do with continuity.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
...how do you get that from it?
I think he meant that Action Weekly was a big mess. And it had nothing to do with continuity.
ACW was not a big mess, this is in relation to a Gaiman GL/Superman story that was going to appear in ACW.
Read it again and put it in the context of current events.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Did you or didn't you say you havent' read the Superman comics since 99?
I've been reading them non-stop since 86, don't you think I'd know better thn you if continuity is a problem with the books today?
There's a pattern. The stories got gradually worse since 1994 or so. Now a point has been reached where even diehard fans complain that the stories. There's a guy in Spain called Mariano Bayona, and he may have the greatest Superman collection ever. He has every Superman comic 1938 to 2000. He stopped in 2000 because he couldn't take it anymore. He told me some of his friends, other big Superman collectors, did the same thing. The farther we get from the Byrne revamp, the worse it gets.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
It's not, it's ignorant writers who are trying to recapture the past to please readers like King Krypton and others who are stuck in the 60's.
How is that different from pleasing you? What makes your opinion more significant that King's?
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Hell, I dare you to find ANY comic published in the last five years that's used ANYTHING from the 86-99 continuity.
Even an ignorant ass like Krypton will admit that they have been ignoring it.
They have been trying to ignore it, but since there hasn't been a proper revamp it's still the same story started in 1986 and there's only so much they can do.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Which they do, but not because of continuiy.
It's not evident, but it's there, if you look at the facts.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
It's not an opinion thta they suck, or I would have phrased it as such, it's a fact.
If they didn't suck then why bring new people to work on them next year?
Exactly. Except the fact thing. There's some people that like the current Superman comics, and their opinion is as valid as yours.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Continuuiy is not a limitation unless the writer chooses to make it one.
Geoff Johns writes three DC series and uses continuity from the last 17 years. Is he limited? Nope.
He's not writing Superman. Let me put it more simply: sometimes a writer says "I'd like to do this... oh, no, I can't, it goes against the continuity." When that happens too many times, it becomes inacceptable.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
That has nothing to do with it.
Yes, there was one Superman comic every week, so Superman's continuity is harder to follow than with most Superheroes.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
It's not fixing anything.
We'll see. Once Birthright is over, we'll compare the pre-Birthright Superman stories with the post-Birthright. Get used to those two words, they'll be used very often in the future.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
No they don't.
Man of Steel fixed Superman after Crisis.
What's happened, related to continuity, that would justify Stillbirth'
NOT ONE DAMN THING...
That's just a minor detail. An outside factor. The story is the same, the effects are pretty much the same. If DC launched a big crossover that justifies Birthright, would your opinion about it change? It shouldn't.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Exactly.
Unless, of course, Man of Steel could stand on its own outside continuity. In that case it can be judged on its own merits.
That's just fucked up. Man of Steel CAN stand on it's own outside continuity. It's a good story, in my opinion.
It's just comics, man. We don't need justification for every damn thing. If you think it's a good story, you should be able to enjoy it regardless of anything else. This is what's wrong with comics today: people judging the stories by anything other by their own merits. And that goes for Silver Age fans and Modern Age fans.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Heh, I'm reminded of people who don't like it when a new character replaces an old one on a TV show, like say Jonas Quinn on Stargate.
Some people liked him, other hated him. Those that hated him hated him not because of who he was but because he was replacing Daniel Jackson.
Had the character of Jonas existed independently of Jackson, as in without having to take his place, I'm sure those same people that hated him would have come to like him for what he had to offer the series.
Agreed. Maybe they would have liked it, maybe not, but still they would judge him for his own merits.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
ACW was not a big mess, this is in relation to a Gaiman GL/Superman story that was going to appear in ACW.
Read it again and put it in the context of current events.
Are you talking about the last line, when Waid says "in spite of ourselves"? In that time, they were ordered to fit everything into the new continuity. Now Waid's not, as Birthright shows.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
There's a pattern. The stories got gradually worse since 1994 or so. Now a point has been reached where even diehard fans complain that the stories. There's a guy in Spain called Mariano Bayona, and he may have the greatest Superman collection ever. He has every Superman comic 1938 to 2000. He stopped in 2000 because he couldn't take it anymore. He told me some of his friends, other big Superman collectors, did the same thing. The farther we get from the Byrne revamp, the worse it gets.
Ok, I can agree with that last line, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the Byrne revamp, as many Waid supporters have said.
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How is that different from pleasing you? What makes your opinion more significant that King's?
When did I say it was?
All I said was that the books changed to please his kind of reader and his kind of reader didn't care for the changes and neither did mine, so the books don't sell anymore because they don't appeal to either group.
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They have been trying to ignore it, but since there hasn't been a proper revamp it's still the same story started in 1986 and there's only so much they can do.
Wrong, the origin from 87 has nothing to do with what the writers since Loeb have done.
They ignored everyhting from between 87 and 99 and chose to focus on the version of the character from before Crisis in an attempt to attract fans of that version of the character.
They failed, the origin didn't fail, they should be replaced, not the origin.
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It's not evident, but it's there, if you look at the facts.
Continuity and the origin aren't the problem. Neither one has been a part of the book in FIVE years.
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Exactly. Except the fact thing. There's some people that like the current Superman comics, and their opinion is as valid as yours.
Wow, a third group!
Silver Age fans, Modern Age fans and Loeb fans.
The problem is that the Loeb era fans are in the minor, minor, almost nonexistant minority.
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He's not writing Superman. Let me put it more simply: sometimes a writer says "I'd like to do this... oh, no, I can't, it goes against the continuity." When that happens too many times, it becomes inacceptable.
No it doesn't, it's the writer's idea that needs to be modified to fit, not the enviorment (continuity) that neds to change to suit the writer.
If a writer is good enough he can modify his idea to fit, if he has an ego then he takes his toys and leaves, then whines about how continuity is something Satan came up with.
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Yes, there was one Superman comic every week, so Superman's continuity is harder to follow than with most Superheroes.
No it's not. He's had three books for the last 30 years or so, so that's not a factor.
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We'll see. Once Birthright is over, we'll compare the pre-Birthright Superman stories with the post-Birthright. Get used to those two words, they'll be used very often in the future.
That's the problem.
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That's just a minor detail. An outside factor. The story is the same, the effects are pretty much the same. If DC launched a big crossover that justifies Birthright, would your opinion about it change? It shouldn't.
Yes, it would change because then it be justified.
Right now it's not.
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First off, MOTA, if anyone's being infantile and a crybaby, it's YOU. You and your fellow continuity zealots started this crap by pissing and moaning about how you don't want your great god Byrne's precious canon contradicted in any way when he had no qualms about contradicting 48 years' worth of stories, and you yourself brought all the hatred and disrespect you (a) richly deserve and (b) are getting from everyone else by insulting them for not thinking Byrne/Jurgens hung the moon and for having respect for the Superman material that came before them. YOU have been the one spouting hate, intolerance, and disrespect for anyone who doesn't agree with YOU. I've seen you do this elsewhere, and do it constantly, no matter how many people you offend and insult. And when people fight back, you try to pin US as the bad guys? Bullshit. You act like a sycophantic Byrne/Jurgens groupie, you get called on it. You espouse an "only my vision of Superman is valid, anyone who disagrees is an idiot and should go stand in the corner" attitude, and of course people are going to call you on it. They've done it elsewhere, too. But by you, it's OK for you to bash everyone else while any kind of resistance to you is unacceptable. Well, guess what? Your opinion is inherently, intrinsically worthless. You FORFEIT your right to an opinion on Superman's "continuity" the instant you said Siegel and Shuster didn't understand Superman. You slaughtered your own credibility when you attacked anyone who doesn't share your narrow-minded view of comics pre-1986. And you exposed yourself as a reprehensible and disgusting human being when you started resorting to lies and slander instead of actually discussing what was being said by others. You and your ilk are one of the biggest reasons the comics industry is suffering now, and in all honesty, you and your ilk are the biggest reason why I've given up on DC in the first place. Go back and bury your head in your precious '86-'99 comics like an ostrich. Believe me, NOBODY will miss you or your stupid little ego rants. ![[you sunnuva...]](images/icons/mad.gif)
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
That's just fucked up. Man of Steel CAN stand on it's own outside continuity. It's a good story, in my opinion.
It's just comics, man. We don't need justification for every damn thing. If you think it's a good story, you should be able to enjoy it regardless of anything else. This is what's wrong with comics today: people judging the stories by anything other by their own merits. And that goes for Silver Age fans and Modern Age fans.
That attitude, 'it's just comics', is the reason why comics will never become an accepted form of entertainment.
Sad, sad, sad.
And people judge stories beyond their own merits because, unlike the SA, comics actually tell stories in a bigger tapestry today.
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Agreed. Maybe they would have liked it, maybe not, but still they would judge him for his own merits.
Yep.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
Are you talking about the last line, when Waid says "in spite of ourselves"? In that time, they were ordered to fit everything into the new continuity. Now Waid's not, as Birthright shows.
I'm talking about the whole thing.
Back then they were creating an new, cohesive universe on the 'ruins' of the old.
Now Waid is destroying that same universe, those foundations, which were fresh then but strong now, with an ego project.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Ok, I can agree with that last line, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the Byrne revamp, as many Waid supporters have said.
Agreed.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Wrong, the origin from 87 has nothing to do with what the writers since Loeb have done.
They ignored everyhting from between 87 and 99 and chose to focus on the version of the character from before Crisis in an attempt to attract fans of that version of the character.
They failed, the origin didn't fail, they should be replaced, not the origin.
They failed because, even if they are not making constant references to continuity, they still haven't changed it. There's nothing wrong with the origin (in my opinion), but it's been so long since the story started and there have been so many additions to the it (app. one every week for 17 years) that it's too long and convulted to be enjoyed by the readers (especially the new ones) and too defined to be explored by the writers.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Continuity and the origin aren't the problem. Neither one has been a part of the book in FIVE years.
Honestly, I don't know what the main problem in the Superman books is since I've only read a few. However, I know continuity is ONE problem. It's evident: the books get worse the farther they get from the revamp. Why? The universe is too defined and therefore too limited.
So there hasn't been a comic that used Continuity? I read a comic where Emil Hamilton (supporting character from the Jurgens era) was revealed to be the villain, and I've read about another one with the waitress from the short Luthor story by Byrne from the issue with the Joker.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Wow, a third group!
Silver Age fans, Modern Age fans and Loeb fans.
There's as many groups as there's people. Personally, I like the Modern Age better, but I enjoy the Golden and Silver, and I'm curious for whatever's coming in comics.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
The problem is that the Loeb era fans are in the minor, minor, almost nonexistant minority.
Doesn't mean their opinion is worth less than mine or yours. As far as making changes goes, of course the majority should be listened. But still, who says they CAN'T be right?
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
No it doesn't, it's the writer's idea that needs to be modified to fit, not the enviorment (continuity) that neds to change to suit the writer.
It's a matter of priorities. Stories go before continuity.
Let's see, what do writers do? Write stories. What's their main goal? Making good stories. Then what's their priority? Making good stories. stories. What if continuity, for one reason or another, gets in the way? Fuck it.
If a writer values continuity more than he values the stories he makes, then he's not a writer. Some people like to use continuity to make good stories (like Johns), some don't. They're writers and they should be allowed to do what they want to do. The more freedom you give them, the better the stories will be.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
If a writer is good enough he can modify his idea to fit, if he has an ego then he takes his toys and leaves, then whines about how continuity is something Satan came up with.
Why should a WRITER give more importance to fitting continuity than to telling a good story? If he thinks there's a way something should be done, it's for his own reasons and he shouldn't be forced to change it.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
No it's not. He's had three books for the last 30 years or so, so that's not a factor.
Exactly. He had three books in the 70's and the 80's too, and things got old then too, so Man of Steel was needed.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Yes, it would change because then it be justified.
Right now it's not.
So, that's what makes a good story? It being justified? Waid could make the worst story ever, but you'd like because it's justified? And if it's the best story ever, but it's not justified then you don't like it?
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
That attitude, 'it's just comics', is the reason why comics will never become an accepted form of entertainment.
Sad, sad, sad.
Uuuuuh... I said "it's just comics" like I could have said "it's just a book". I meant "it's just fantasy"... In fact, I thought about typing that but I thought you would get what I was trying to say.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
And people judge stories beyond their own merits because, unlike the SA, comics actually tell stories in a bigger tapestry today.
So stories can't be enjoyed individually? That's the whole point, telling good stories, not creating the "bigger tapestry". That's just a context to put the stories in.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
I'm talking about the whole thing.
Back then they were creating an new, cohesive universe on the 'ruins' of the old.
Now Waid is destroying that same universe, those foundations, which were fresh then but strong now, with an ego project.
Now, they were fresh then, old and boring now (in Superman's case at least). That's the whole point, can't you see? He was helping construct a fresh new universe then, just like he is now, only this project is for Superman only.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
So, that's what makes a good story? It being justified? Waid could make the worst story ever, but you'd like because it's justified? And if it's the best story ever, but it's not justified then you don't like it?
Dude, be honest, it wouldn't really matter.
See, people are judging Birthright on two points right now:
How it fits in continuity
Its own merits and flaws
Whether or not it were a story that fits in continuity that would only get rid of the first point, the story would still be judged by its own merits and flaws.
When, if ever, have I said that a story being in continuity automatically makes that story good?
I've said that the writers should respect continuity if they want to play with it.
This bs about continuity not allowing the writers to be free is bs.
I'll give you a personal example and fuck it if you insult me for it, as I know you will:
For my fan fic I wanted to write a story set on Rann about a group of aliens from old Krypton who want to turn Rann into a New Krypton.
In my original draft the only justification for why I wanted to use Rann in my story was because Rannians are sterile and I wanted to play with the idea that that's the opposite of what Kryptonians were.
As the time to write the actual story got closer I decided to do research on Adam Strange and Rann, so I read every single of his apperances till today.
What I found was something, done over 10 years ago in an issue of Green Lantern, which helped my story. It turns out that Adam's daughter, Aleea, has the power to control every mind in the known universe.
Could my story have been just as good if I didn't know this fact about the character? Maybe.
Is my story stronger because it uses continuity? No question, no doubt.
Without the research I did I wouldn't have known about this tiny, NEVER been mentioned again, detail about a seldomly used character.
Another character quirk I picked up during my research is that Aleea's hair through the years has been inconsistantly colored, either blonde or brunette.
I've chosen to explored that discrepency by linking the changing hair color to her internal power.
Writers who choose to ignore continuity have egos. Their stories aren't as good as they can be because, out of ignorance, they choose to set aside what's been established so they can say they did it first.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
So stories can't be enjoyed individually? That's the whole point, telling good stories, not creating the "bigger tapestry". That's just a context to put the stories in.
Waid's free to do his independent 'good' story. He's not free to destroy what others created out of ego, is he?
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