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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
Now, they were fresh then, old and boring now (in Superman's case at least). That's the whole point, can't you see? He was helping construct a fresh new universe then, just like he is now, only this project is for Superman only.
And because it's for Superman only it's creating problems for the whole line.
We just went through this 'new/old' Krypton bs two years ago, why do it again?
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Dude, be honest, it wouldn't really matter.
See, people are judging Birthright on two points right now:
How it fits in continuity
Its own merits and flaws
Whether or not it were a story that fits in continuity that would only get rid of the first point, the story would still be judged by its own merits and flaws.
When, if ever, have I said that a story being in continuity automatically makes that story good?
I've said that the writers should respect continuity if they want to play with it.
This bs about continuity not allowing the writers to be free is bs.
I'll give you a personal example and fuck it if you insult me for it, as I know you will:
For my fan fic I wanted to write a story set on Rann about a group of aliens from old Krypton who want to turn Rann into a New Krypton.
In my original draft the only justification for why I wanted to use Rann in my story was because Rannians are sterile and I wanted to play with the idea that that's the opposite of what Kryptonians were.
As the time to write the actual story got closer I decided to do research on Adam Strange and Rann, so I read every single of his apperances till today.
What I found was something, done over 10 years ago in an issue of Green Lantern, which helped my story. It turns out that Adam's daughter, Aleea, has the power to control every mind in the known universe.
Could my story have been just as good if I didn't know this fact about the character? Maybe.
Is my story stronger because it uses continuity? No question, no doubt.
Without the research I did I wouldn't have known about this tiny, NEVER been mentioned again, detail about a seldomly used character.
Another character quirk I picked up during my research is that Aleea's hair through the years has been inconsistantly colored, either blonde or brunette.
I've chosen to explored that discrepency by linking the changing hair color to her internal power.
Writers who choose to ignore continuity have egos. Their stories aren't as good as they can be because, out of ignorance, they choose to set aside what's been established so they can say they did it first.
Just for curiosity, what if in your research you had found something in an old Adam Strange story that makes it completely impossible for your story to take place in Rann? Like, in issue #237, God said "No Kryptonian shall ever live in Rann" (just an example).
Back to the topic: it's perfectly valid to fit your story to continuity, but IT'S NOT THE ONLY OPTION. Some people like it, some people don't. You like it, I think it depends on the case, and others hate it. And, guess what? None of us is wrong. What's always wrong is thinking that YOUR way is the ONLY way. You've made assumptions about Waid's ego and mental abilities based only on the fact that he didn't do things the way you like them.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Waid's free to do his independent 'good' story. He's not free to destroy what others created out of ego, is he?
He's not destroying it! He's not burning every comic that contradicts what he's saying! The stories are still there and they can be enjoyed as much as when they were published the first time.
And why is Waid not allow to "destroy what others did" and Byrne is? You can't use Crisis as an excuse, Crisis was just a story, nothing else. It's not a cosmic event that forced the editors to find a writer to revamp Superman.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
And because it's for Superman only it's creating problems for the whole line.
What other problems? Those problems are only in your mind. They aren't real problems, they don't stop writers from doing their job.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
Just for curiosity, what if in your research you had found something in an old Adam Strange story that makes it completely impossible for your story to take place in Rann? Like, in issue #237, God said "No Kryptonian shall ever live in Rann" (just an example).
Damn, I wish I had found that, it would have been worth exploring. It would have opened the door to explore just what happened between Kryptonians and Rannians that would have made the Rannian deity make that law.
Well, it's worth mentioning two things:
The Kryptonians I mentioned above are ancient aliens who pretended to be Gods on Krypton, so if a Rannian 'God' had made such a law then odds are that in this story he would have just been another old alien pretending to be God.
The point is that I wouldn't have ignored it, I would have adapted such a fact from the past into my present day story.
That's what good writers do, they use what's come before to enhance their stories.
See, and this is the most important fact to remember, for good writers there's no such thing as impossibles or barriers, everything is a possible story.
I've had countless writers submit to my site who tell me 'I don't like that you turned Norrin Radd into a Green Lantern that has to obey the rogue Watchers who are the new Guardians, that's not who Norrin is. He's a free spirit, he doesn't follow orders', etc, stuff like that.
After talking with the writers in question about what they perceive to be a problem we came up with a way to keep Norrin as a Green Lantern AND still keep the characters personality intact.
I don't remember the exact details but the same writer who previously saw Norrin being a Green Lantern as a problem, in a few short weeks, saw all the possibilities that came with the change.
Like I said, only GOOD writers see possibilities, all others see obstructions.
quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
Back to the topic: it's perfectly valid to fit your story to continuity, but IT'S NOT THE ONLY OPTION. Some people like it, some people don't. You like it, I think it depends on the case, and others hate it. And, guess what? None of us is wrong. What's always wrong is thinking that YOUR way is the ONLY way. You've made assumptions about Waid's ego and mental abilities based only on the fact that he didn't do things the way you like them.
I haven't questioned his mental abilities, I doubt the man's crazy. He does, however, have an ego.
Only a person with an ego would see what someone else had done and then do the completely opposite.
Only a person with an ego would see what more than 10-15 writers have done in a 17 year period and decide that he's bringing back what had been undone before for being considered too stupid to continue just because he liked it when he was a kid.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
He's not destroying it! He's not burning every comic that contradicts what he's saying! The stories are still there and they can be enjoyed as much as when they were published the first time.
Shit.
No one is saying that he's destroying the physical comics.
He's stopping the stories dead in their tracks, making them unable to continue OUT of EGO.
quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
And why is Waid not allow to "destroy what others did" and Byrne is? You can't use Crisis as an excuse, Crisis was just a story, nothing else. It's not a cosmic event that forced the editors to find a writer to revamp Superman.
Actually you're wrong on that.
Crisis happened because the comics sucked, there were too many reasons that don't exist now, it's that simple.
The situations that made Man of Steel a necesity doesn't exist anymore, Waid is just using the oppportunity that Didio gave him to write 'Ultimate' Superman to undo everything Byrne did.
Look at Ultimate Spider-Man and at Lee's and Ditko's origin.
Ult S-Man is more respectful to that than Birthright is being to Superman's origin by Siegel and Shuster.
Birthright fits better in the Silver Age than it does with what Siegel and Shuster did.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
What other problems? Those problems are only in your mind. They aren't real problems, they don't stop writers from doing their job.
Sure they don't.
Except that now instead of telling new stories the writers have to find ways to fit the new continuity into the current characters as well as explain how Superman is now younger than the heroes that used to look up to him
You do understand that by changing the past Waid is forcing current and future writers to fit his changes into the new continuity? Things that happened before now eitherdidn't happen or happened differently.
I know that you as well as others who like to whine hate continuity but writers do enjoy making references to the past int heir stories, as well as use characters from old stories.
Now a lot of Superman events and characters have to be altered to fit with what Waid did.
You may not like that, you may not think it works like that, but you're wrong.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Damn, I wish I had found that, it would have been worth exploring. It would have opened the door to explore just what happened between Kryptonians and Rannians that would have made the Rannian deity make that law.
Well, it's worth mentioning two things:
The Kryptonians I mentioned above are ancient aliens who pretended to be Gods on Krypton, so if a Rannian 'God' had made such a law then odds are that in this story he would have just been another old alien pretending to be God.
Uuuuh... I was giving an example. That didn't really happened. And I meant GOD, as in creator and ruler of the whole universe. What I was trying to say was that suppouse that, for some reason, it's impossible for Kryptonians to go to Krypton. But whatever, it's just curiosisty.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
The point is that I wouldn't have ignored it, I would have adapted such a fact from the past into my present day story.
That's what good writers do, they use what's come before to enhance their stories.
See, and this is the most important fact to remember, for good writers there's no such thing as impossibles or barriers, everything is a possible story.
What happened to "you can't make a good story in 8 pages" and "you can't make anything but comedy if there's a super pet"? There was another one, but I can't remember it right now. I guess we'll have to add "you have to be justified" and "you must always respect continuity".
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
I've had countless writers submit to my site who tell me 'I don't like that you turned Norrin Radd into a Green Lantern that has to obey the rogue Watchers who are the new Guardians, that's not who Norrin is. He's a free spirit, he doesn't follow orders', etc, stuff like that.
After talking with the writers in question about what they perceive to be a problem we came up with a way to keep Norrin as a Green Lantern AND still keep the characters personality intact.
I don't remember the exact details but the same writer who previously saw Norrin being a Green Lantern as a problem, in a few short weeks, saw all the possibilities that came with the change.
Like I said, only GOOD writers see possibilities, all others see obstructions.
I insist: what you're saying is perfectly valid, but it's an OPTION.
I don't know about you, but it's my personal opinion that creating new concepts is harder than accomodating to old ones. Waid has proved that he's able to make good stories using old continuity (Flash). He has A LOT of obscure references in his comics. I've read articles written by him from before he started writing comics, and his knowledge of the Silver Age is amazing. He used that very well in Flash. Now he's moving on to something else...
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
I haven't questioned his mental abilities, I doubt the man's crazy. He does, however, have an ego.
You said he was stupid.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Only a person with an ego would see what someone else had done and then do the completely opposite.
Only a person with an ego would see what more than 10-15 writers have done in a 17 year period and decide that he's bringing back what had been undone before for being considered too stupid to continue just because he liked it when he was a kid.
Even more writers wrote Superman in the Silver Age for even more years. You said you think that Man of Steel goes "back to the basics": well, that fits my analogy perfectly well. Instead of going back to the Silver Age (which I doub Waid is doing, but you think so) Byrne went back to the Golden Age (something I also think it's wrong, but you think that's what happened).
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Shit.
No one is saying that he's destroying the physical comics.
He's stopping the stories dead in their tracks, making them unable to continue OUT of EGO.
They alredy stopped. The Byrne/Jurgens era was nice, but it's over. What, do you want it to go on forever?
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Actually you're wrong on that.
Crisis happened because the comics sucked, there were too many reasons that don't exist now, it's that simple.
Superman comics don't suck right now?
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
The situations that made Man of Steel a necesity doesn't exist anymore, Waid is just using the oppportunity that Didio gave him to write 'Ultimate' Superman to undo everything Byrne did.
Look at Ultimate Spider-Man and at Lee's and Ditko's origin.
Ult S-Man is more respectful to that than Birthright is being to Superman's origin by Siegel and Shuster.
Birthright fits better in the Silver Age than it does with what Siegel and Shuster did.
Ah, but what do Siegel and Shuster know.
No, I'm never gonna let you forget you said Siegel and Shuster don't get Superman. Maybe now you're gonna start thinking before you say things like that.
Back to topic (see, this is how it's done. you don't stay with a phrase and avoid the other person's point. like you have done countless times, most recently in the "it's just comics" thing)... you're dissing Birthright because Superman's origin is not enough like Siegel and Shuster's vision... but what about Man of Steel?! It's version of Krypton was radically different from the original one. In fact, from what I've seen of Brithright, I think Waid's Krypton resembles Siegel and Shuster's more than Byrne's.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Sure they don't.
Except that now instead of telling new stories the writers have to find ways to fit the new continuity into the current characters as well as explain how Superman is now younger than the heroes that used to look up to him
You do understand that by changing the past Waid is forcing current and future writers to fit his changes into the new continuity? Things that happened before now eitherdidn't happen or happened differently.
Like in Crisis or Zero Hour.
You say it's a good thing to find ways to fit to continuity... then what's the problem? "If they are good writers, they should find a way to do it!"
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
I know that you as well as others who like to whine hate continuity but writers do enjoy making references to the past int heir stories, as well as use characters from old stories.
Not all the writers, not all the time.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Now a lot of Superman events and characters have to be altered to fit with what Waid did.
What a great challenge to writers! They are better writers because if they can fit to it, according to what you said before.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
You may not like that, you may not think it works like that, but you're wrong.
No need to add anything...
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
Uuuuh... I was giving an example. That didn't really happened. And I meant GOD, as in creator and ruler of the whole universe. What I was trying to say was that suppose that, for some reason, it's impossible for Kryptonians to go to Krypton. But whatever, it's just curiosisty.
That's what I'm trying to tell you.
For a good writer NOTHING is impossible.
Good writers don't see an obstruction and then try to work around it or destroy it, they work WITH it.
And it's Rann, not Krypton :)
quote:
What happened to "you can't make a good story in 8 pages" and "you can't make anything but comedy if there's a super pet"? There was another one, but I can't remember it right now. I guess we'll have to add "you have to be justified" and "you must always respect continuity".
You can't make a GOOD story with character development in 8 pages. At best you can do a fight sequence and that's it, or a story that's ONLY people talking so they can be developed, but 8 pages aren't enough room for a GOOD story.
8 pages is enough for a sequence.
quote:
I insist: what you're saying is perfectly valid, but it's an OPTION.
I don't know about you, but it's my personal opinion that creating new concepts is harder than accomodating to old ones. Waid has proved that he's able to make good stories using old continuity (Flash). He has A LOT of obscure references in his comics. I've read articles written by him from before he started writing comics, and his knowledge of the Silver Age is amazing. He used that very well in Flash. Now he's moving on to something else...
Right, he's moving from creating to destroying.
And the Silver Age is over. Talk about using useless, outdated data!
It's like someone that learned on an 80's Atari computer trying to get a job at IBM...
quote:
You said he was stupid.
What was the context of the sentence?
quote:
Even more writers wrote Superman in the Silver Age for even more years. You said you think that Man of Steel goes "back to the basics": well, that fits my analogy perfectly well. Instead of going back to the Silver Age (which I doub Waid is doing, but you think so) Byrne went back to the Golden Age (something I also think it's wrong, but you think that's what happened).
Waid IS going back to the Silver Age.
Read the CBR interview. If it hadn't been because his editor told him no to he would have changed Luthor from a business man to something else.
I doubt that something else was a third incarnation of the character, not with this writer.
Birthright takes more out of the SA (Lex in Smallville, Superman with even MORE powers than he's had in ANY other incarnation (except for Superman 2) and a Krypton that's perfect).
And that's just in two issues. Let's wait what happens in 3. He'll probably bring back Insect Queen too.
Or make Lana's dad an archeologist.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
They alredy stopped. The Byrne/Jurgens era was nice, but it's over. What, do you want it to go on forever?
Looking at the sales charts my guess is that I'm not the only one.
No one is buying Superman comics.
People STOPPED buying them when Loeb and the others came onto the books.
What does that tell you?
That they're not buying it because of something that happened 17 years ago?
Hell, even that uber-collector you mentioned stopped in 2000 after buying the comics that've come out since 38.
Do you really think he stopped because of ANYTHING Jurgens did.
He didn't stop with the Electric Saga, did he?
He stopped after Y2K, something that happened long after Jurgens left.
quote:
Superman comics don't suck right now?
Dude, you're not listening, lol.
They suck now because they are using the SAME writting techniques from before Crisis, the same character personalities.
Superman as he is written right now is right from the Pre Crisis universe, ok? He's right out from when the comics had to be rebooted.
He doesn't suck because of Crisis or because of the Man of Steel origin, he sucks because the editor is ignoring those.
quote:
Ah, but what do Siegel and Shuster know.
No, I'm never gonna let you forget you said Siegel and Shuster don't get Superman. Maybe now you're gonna start thinking before you say things like that.
They didn't get him. They concentrated more on the idea of the character in spandex that they ignored his formative years.
It wasn't till they introduced Superboy and got to explore those that they began to understand that Clark Kent was more than a disguise.
Remember, the line goes:
'Disguised as Clark Kent, mild-mannered reporter for a great metropolitan newspaper'
Up till the introduction of Superboy that's how they saw him, as a mask.
Have you EVER heard a line that sounded anything like this:
'Disguised as Clark Kent- mild-mannered high school student for a small community school'?
Young Clark Kent wasn't the same kind of 'mask' that the adult Clark was. That Clark, who also wore glasses, was more human.
Remember a story in which Superboy decided to live in a cave?
The FIRST thing he did was put up a portrait of his parents above a fireplace.
His human parents John and Martha, not Jor-El and Lara.
The rest of the cave was filld with furniture from the Kent's house, not Kryptonian technology.
Young Clark Kent was more human than the adult version. The writers had finally begun to explore their creation's formative years and understood how the concept work.
Writers aren't perfect, you know?
They don't know every single thing about their characters at the moment in which they created him. It takes years of working on them to understand how they work.
It's no different from a penciler who gets better and faster at drawing something the more often he works on it.
quote:
Back to topic (see, this is how it's done. you don't stay with a phrase and avoid the other person's point. like you have done countless times, most recently in the "it's just comics" thing)... you're dissing Birthright because Superman's origin is not enough like Siegel and Shuster's vision... but what about Man of Steel?! It's version of Krypton was radically different from the original one. In fact, from what I've seen of Brithright, I think Waid's Krypton resembles Siegel and Shuster's more than Byrne's.
No it doesn't. It's more like the SA version with the stupid clothing than the S&S version.
Have you ever seen the black and white movies?
The Kryptonian clothing there was more similar to what Brando wore in the movie. They were just white suits with nothing on them.
In the original comics the clothing was pretty simplistic, just like in the movie.
And since Byrne's Krypton is based on the movie...
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
Like in Crisis or Zero Hour.
You say it's a good thing to find ways to fit to continuity... then what's the problem? "If they are good writers, they should find a way to do it!"
No, not like Crisis and Zero Hour.
Those two were GROUP efforts, this is one man's actions affecting what others are doing WHILE they are doing it.
And yes, if they're good they'll find a way, but that's not the point. The point is that they shouldn't have to try.
You're making it sound like Batista was wrong in drawing the Kryptonian armor and Adlard was wrong in drawing Perry dresed like Jor-El all just because Waid is rewritting the origin.
Clearly the other writers are ignoring this. If this were ANYWHERE like Zero Hour then the other titles would have started to address it, like Valor did SIX months before Zero Hour actually hit.
We're talking about comics that came out 30 days before Birthright did.
It be another thing is the armor in the comics had been altered from panel to panel, to at least hint at Hypertime being in play and the past being in flux.
That hasn't happened.
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Not all the writers, not all the time..
Without the whiners and the crappy writers how you would recognize the good ones?
You can't read EVERY single comic, can you?
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What a great challenge to writers! They are better writers because if they can fit to it, according to what you said before.
Right. But they shouldn't have to.
We'll have to see if they can live up to the challenge...
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
That's what I'm trying to tell you.
For a good writer NOTHING is impossible.
Good writers don't see an obstruction and then try to work around it or destroy it, they work WITH it.
IF THEY WANT TO. It's an option.
I agree with you when you say "Nothing is impossible"... but that seems very contradictory coming from you.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
And it's Rann, not Krypton :)
D'oh!
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
You can't make a GOOD story with character development in 8 pages.
At best you can do a fight sequence and that's it, or a story that's ONLY people talking so they can be developed, but 8 pages aren't enough room for a GOOD story.
8 pages is enough for a sequence.
For a good writer, nothing is impossible.
You got that Moore TPB yet?
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Right, he's moving from creating to destroying.
No, he moved from creating by fitting to old to directly creating new.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
And the Silver Age is over. Talk about using useless, outdated data!
................like your research on Adam Strange?????????????????????
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
What was the context of the sentence?
You "whining" about Birthright.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Waid IS going back to the Silver Age.
Read the CBR interview. If it hadn't been because his editor told him no to he would have changed Luthor from a business man to something else.
I doubt that something else was a third incarnation of the character, not with this writer.
Birthright takes more out of the SA (Lex in Smallville, Superman with even MORE powers than he's had in ANY other incarnation (except for Superman 2) and a Krypton that's perfect).
And that's just in two issues. Let's wait what happens in 3. He'll probably bring back Insect Queen too.
Or make Lana's dad an archeologist.
All right, all right, I haven't read Birthright, so I won't argue with you about that. I still think you're wrong, but I'd have to read the book to make valid arguments about what you say up there.
Now... how's any of that related to the part of my post you quoted?! You stayed with one phrase ("You think Waid is going back to the Silver Age," or something), expanded on that (saying nothing new) and completely ignored my point.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Looking at the sales charts my guess is that I'm not the only one.
No one is buying Superman comics.
People STOPPED buying them when Loeb and the others came onto the books.
What does that tell you?
That they're not buying it because of something that happened 17 years ago?
Hell, even that uber-collector you mentioned stopped in 2000 after buying the comics that've come out since 38.
Do you really think he stopped because of ANYTHING Jurgens did.
He didn't stop with the Electric Saga, did he?
He stopped after Y2K, something that happened long after Jurgens left.
You're not paying attention. I'll stop saying that when it stops being true.
When did I blame anything on Jurgens? I like his work on Superman. What I said was that the Byrne/Jurgens era is OVER, and it's time to move to something else, just like Byrne did when he started.
I'll ask you this again, and I hope you don't ignore it this time: Do you think the Byrne/Jurgens era should go on forever?
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Dude, you're not listening, lol.
They suck now because they are using the SAME writting techniques from before Crisis, the same character personalities.
Superman as he is written right now is right from the Pre Crisis universe, ok? He's right out from when the comics had to be rebooted.
He doesn't suck because of Crisis or because of the Man of Steel origin, he sucks because the editor is ignoring those.
In 1999 the writers did a "semi-reboot". They pretended they were starting over, they tried hard to separate from the 1986 origin... but, in the end, the 1986 origin was still there. They failed because they just tried ignored it, when what they should have done was downright cut all ties to it. They wanted to appeal to old fans from the Byrne/Jurgens era (their origin was still there, technically they hadn't rebooted it), and, at the same time, to new fans (new creative teams, new art style... it "looked" like a reboot). If had done a proper reboot (or a retroactive one, like Waid's) the old readers might have realized that the story started in Man of Steel #1 was over, so they did a "semi-reboot" and tried to hide the fact that they were no longer related to Man of Steel, so the old fans continued buying. The problem was that, since they didn't delete the old origin (they just ignored it) the origin and all the stories between 86 and 99 were still there, so they could only "break free" from them up to some point. If they reached a point where it contradicted the old continuity too much, the editors would say "Whoa, hold on there, if you do that the old suckers are gonna stop buying!". Take Return to Krypton as an example. Wasn't that, in the end, explained to fit to what Byrne had said in his origin?
I insist: I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST BYRNE'S ORIGIN. But, the farther we get from it, the more the stories suck. It's take to make a new one, so the stories rock again.
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
They didn't get him. They concentrated more on the idea of the character in spandex that they ignored his formative years.
It wasn't till they introduced Superboy and got to explore those that they began to understand that Clark Kent was more than a disguise.
Remember, the line goes:
'Disguised as Clark Kent, mild-mannered reporter for a great metropolitan newspaper'
Up till the introduction of Superboy that's how they saw him, as a mask.
Have you EVER heard a line that sounded anything like this:
'Disguised as Clark Kent- mild-mannered high school student for a small community school'?
Young Clark Kent wasn't the same kind of 'mask' that the adult Clark was. That Clark, who also wore glasses, was more human.
Remember a story in which Superboy decided to live in a cave?
The FIRST thing he did was put up a portrait of his parents above a fireplace.
His human parents John and Martha, not Jor-El and Lara.
The rest of the cave was filld with furniture from the Kent's house, not Kryptonian technology.
Young Clark Kent was more human than the adult version. The writers had finally begun to explore their creation's formative years and understood how the concept work.
Writers aren't perfect, you know?
They don't know every single thing about their characters at the moment in which they created him. It takes years of working on them to understand how they work.
It's no different from a penciler who gets better and faster at drawing something the more often he works on it.
That fits your vision of Superman. If something doesn't fit it, it's wrong. If Siegel and Shuster's version doesn't fit the vision you like, they (the creators of the character) are wrong.
You say "finally Clark Kent became more real," but who says that version of the character is more valid than "Clark Kent is a disguise"? Why should the vision you like the most be the one accepted by every Superman fan?
quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
No it doesn't. It's more like the SA version with the stupid clothing than the S&S version.
Have you ever seen the black and white movies?
The Kryptonian clothing there was more similar to what Brando wore in the movie. They were just white suits with nothing on them.
In the original comics the clothing was pretty simplistic, just like in the movie.
And since Byrne's Krypton is based on the movie...
The black and white movies weren't writen by Siegel and Shuster.
Let's see... There isn't much about Krypton in Action #1. Only the Rocket, that is exactly or almost like the Silver Age rocket.
In Superman #1 there's a page with the scientific explanation of Superman's powers. In it, we can see Kryptonian buildings (the technology looks like the one we see in the Silver Age) and some Kryptonians giving tall leaps around the buildings. Not only did these Kryptonians have super powers, their clothes and the color of their clothes, resemble the ones seen in the Silver Age, only they have less detail.
I happen to have an early Superman comic strip by Siegel and Shuster. Jor-El leaps buildings and lifts debris. He doesn't have a head-band, a cape, or a sun in his chest, but still his clothes look more like Silver Age than the movie or the Modern Age.
The Silver Age Krypton was an expansion of the Siegel and Shuster one. They didn't reveal much about it, so the Silver Age writers did so, based on the little we saw in Siegel and Shuster's comics.
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
No, not like Crisis and Zero Hour.
Those two were GROUP efforts, this is one man's actions affecting what others are doing WHILE they are doing it.
What's the big diffence? That in Crisis in Zero Hour they were "justified"? It's still just stories.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
And yes, if they're good they'll find a way, but that's not the point. The point is that they shouldn't have to try.
You're making it sound like Batista was wrong in drawing the Kryptonian armor and Adlard was wrong in drawing Perry dresed like Jor-El all just because Waid is rewritting the origin.
No, YOU are making it sound like that. I personally don't give a fuck if they make references to the old Byrne Krypton. It doesn't affect their stories or Waid's.
YOU said that now writers have to accomodate to Waid's origin, not me. I was making reference to your logic in those lines.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Clearly the other writers are ignoring this. If this were ANYWHERE like Zero Hour then the other titles would have started to address it, like Valor did SIX months before Zero Hour actually hit.
We're talking about comics that came out 30 days before Birthright did.
That's the beauty of it: since there isn't an official event to "justify" the changes, the writers only make references to it if they want to (Loeb and Wagner did). The old origin doesn't tie the Superman writers anymore, but if someone wants to make a reference to it, they can. It's the ultimate "fuck you" to being unnecessarily restricted by continuity, wether the writers realize it or not.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
It be another thing is the armor in the comics had been altered from panel to panel, to at least hint at Hypertime being in play and the past being in flux.
That hasn't happened.
No, because in the end, it doesn't matter. By your logic, the writers who didn't want to accomodate to Waid's Krypton are "bad writers". I say they aren't. Fuck being restricted by continuity.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Without the whiners and the crappy writers how you would recognize the good ones?
You can't read EVERY single comic, can you?
I don't understand what that means, to be honest. You said "this is the way it HAS to be done". I said "No, sir, that's an option, there's also this other way". Could you explain what the quote above means? I honestly don't understand.
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Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
Right. But they shouldn't have to.
We'll have to see if they can live up to the challenge...
Again with that... They shouldn't have to because there isn't a cosmic event to justify it? Zero Hour and Crisis were just stories, man.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
In 1999 the writers did a "semi-reboot". They pretended they were starting over, they tried hard to separate from the 1986 origin... but, in the end, the 1986 origin was still there. They failed because they just tried ignored it, when what they should have done was downright cut all ties to it. They wanted to appeal to old fans from the Byrne/Jurgens era (their origin was still there, technically they hadn't rebooted it), and, at the same time, to new fans (new creative teams, new art style... it "looked" like a reboot). If had done a proper reboot (or a retroactive one, like Waid's) the old readers might have realized that the story started in Man of Steel #1 was over, so they did a "semi-reboot" and tried to hide the fact that they were no longer related to Man of Steel, so the old fans continued buying. The problem was that, since they didn't delete the old origin (they just ignored it) the origin and all the stories between 86 and 99 were still there, so they could only "break free" from them up to some point. If they reached a point where it contradicted the old continuity too much, the editors would say "Whoa, hold on there, if you do that the old suckers are gonna stop buying!". Take Return to Krypton as an example. Wasn't that, in the end, explained to fit to what Byrne had said in his origin?
I insist: I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST BYRNE'S ORIGIN. But, the farther we get from it, the more the stories suck. It's take to make a new one, so the stories rock again.
You gotta love the irony.
That's the EXACT same thing, word for word, that I've been saying about Pre Crisis continuity and the Man of Steel reboot.
Word for word...
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#1: So...? Why is that an irony?
#2: So you're saying that Man of Steel wasn't a reboot?! It didn't star things over, it didn't fix things?! What I said up there was AGAINST the 1999 "semi-reboot", in case you didn't notice. How could you be saying the same thing about Man of Steel, if you're not against it?!
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quote:
That fits your vision of Superman. If something doesn't fit it, it's wrong. If Siegel and Shuster's version doesn't fit the vision you like, they (the creators of the character) are wrong.
And lest we forget, MOTA has already stated that Siegel and Shuster got Superman all wrong and that Byrne knew the character better than they did (http://newdcboards.warnerbros.com/web/messages.jsp?board=superman_birthright&topic=33504239&pageOffset=3).
quote:
You say "finally Clark Kent became more real," but who says that version of the character is more valid than "Clark Kent is a disguise"? Why should the vision you like the most be the one accepted by every Superman fan?
Because he's an egotistical, brainless, unreasonable, hateful, petty, selfish, belligerent zealot who thinks he has the right to dictate what comic book fans should and shouldn't like.
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quote:
Originally posted by I'm Not Mister Mxypltk:
Sigh....
EVERYTHING you said, about how Loeb tried to ignore what came before when he should have rebooted instead is what I've been saying to the Pre Crisis supporters.
They say just ignore.
I say reboot.
You said reboot, just like how I did.
Get it?
The difference is that back then a reboot was justified, now it's not.
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quote:
Originally posted by King Krypton:
Because he's an egotistical, brainless, unreasonable, hateful, petty, selfish, belligerent zealot who thinks he has the right to dictate what comic book fans should and shouldn't like.
You compare people who like continuity to the Taliban and I'm the one that's hateful?
What does that make you?
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quote:
Originally posted by ManofTheAtom:
EVERYTHING you said, about how Loeb tried to ignore what came before when he should have rebooted instead is what I've been saying to the Pre Crisis supporters.
They say just ignore.
I say reboot.
You said reboot, just like how I did.
Get it?
SO?!
You wanna know what's real irony? You are the one that hates the Silver Age, yet you are the one with the most simplistic mind.
So I agree in one point with you... why the fuck shouldn't I?! Should I change my opinion about that because I don't agree with you in other things? And do I have to agree in everything with the "Pre Crisis supporters" just because I happen to enjoy the Pre Crisis Superman? So they said "ignore" and not "reboot"... how's that related to me?
Congratulations, you did it one more time. You stayed with a little, trivial detail, and ignored my point.
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And now, more of MOTA trying to play the victim, this time over at the DC boards: quote:
The first time I remember seeing a Superman comic was a Spanish reprint of Man of Steel #6 at a newstand in Acapulco while I was on vacation there.
I remember begging my grandma to buy it for me, I just had to know who that ghost in green approaching Superman was!
Of course, according to all SA supporters that makes me a victim and the fact that I liked it makes me no different from a Taliban terrorist...
Once again, he resorts to blatant lying. The problem is NOT that he liked MOS. That has NEVER been the problem. The problem is that he won't accept ANYTHING other than the Byrne/Jurgens version, and has made it his mission to discriminate against anything that came before 1986 or after 1999 and to spew hatred against those who DON'T think the Byrne/Jurgens version is sacred writ.
Reality check, MOTA: Nobody's saying you're wrong for liking Byrne's work. We're saying you're wrong for bashing anything that ISN'T Byrne/Jurgens, for bashing anyone who either doesn't like the Byrne/Jurgens version or simply doesn't like it exclusively (as you do), for trying to impose your tastes on us and deny anyone the right to a differing opinion (as you've done on every single MB you foul with your presence), and for having the unmitigated gall to claim that Siegel and Shuster didn't understand their own creation and that Byrne knew Superman better than they did. THAT is the problem. It's your close-mindedness and hateful attitude we despise, not your personal tastes.
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