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I'm not a fan of the Challengers, but the Kirby art in the "Greatest Stories of the 50's Ever Told" HC is impressive. Way ahead of its time, even among the selection of stories in that book.
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This link is relevant..It has Kirby artwork on a Challengers of the Unknown cover: http://www.toonopedia.com/chalngrs.htm
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Beardguy57 said:
Wasn't Jack Kirby the one who created and drew CHALLENGERS OF THE UNKNOWN? the G-man said:
He created it. And he drew some of them. However, other writers and artists took over the series. There's actually a big event in Kirby's life regarding his departure from CHALLENGERS OF THE UNKNOWN. The Challengers first appeared in SHOWCASE issues: 6 (Feb 1957) 7 (April 1957) 11 (Dec 1957) 12 (Jan 1958) After which Kirby drew the first 8 issues of CHALLENGERS OF THE UNKNOWN when they spun off into their own series. (May 1958-June 1959) The reason Kirby left DC at this point is precisely this: Kirby had been marketing several newspaper strips, to get out of the then-dying comics industry, and into a more lucrative syndicated newspaper strip. Among them Johnny Reb (a Civil War period series) and SKY MASTERS (about a group of space explorers. ) Of the strips Kirby had going, SKY MASTERS was particularly successful, and was growing in popularity. But editor Jack Schiff at DC, who helped broker initial sale of the SKY MASTERS strip to a syndicate, had wanted a percentage of Kirby's royalties from the strip. When Schiff wasn't cut in, he pursued a lawsuit against Kirby. I initially thought the lawsuit asserted that the SKY MASTERS strip was too similar to the DC-owned CHALLENGERS characters (that Kirby created !), i.e., that SKY MASTERS was a copyright infringement on the CHALLENGERS characters. But it may have just been about Schiff wanting a settlement for the percentage he was shorted of. Schiff won the lawsuit, after which according to alternate versions, Kirby either refused to work for DC from that point, or Schiff fired Kirby and no longer let Kirby get any work at DC. In any case, Kirby quit working for DC in 1959, and (post-Comics Code, with limited publishers, many publishers recently driven out of business due to the Code) Kirby began working almost exclusively for Marvel. Until Infantino welcomed Kirby back to DC in 1970. Many have noted the similarity of CHALLENGERS to the later FANTASTIC FOUR series. An interesting tribute to this is John Byrne's WHAT IF story (issue 36): "What if the FF had not gained their powers?" Which essentially turns the FF into the Challengers of the Unknown. Kirby did not work again for DC until the moment Jack Schiff retired from DC. At which point, in 1970, Kirby met with publisher Infantino and signed a contract with DC, and soon after was publishing his Fourth World series ( FOREVER PEOPLE, NEW GODS, MISTER MIRACLE and JIMMY OLSEN).
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I read that FF What If issue when it first came out, and I noted the similarity to the Challengers back then.. also, the FF's original purple outfits, which they wore the very first issue - were the same purple outfits the Challengers started off with.
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I first saw the Challengers by Kirby in this SUPER DC GIANT # 25, reprinting CHALLENGERS issues 4, 6, and 8, with a new Kirby cover (circa 1971) and a text article on Kirby.  I find it interesting to see how Kirby drew CHALLENGERS 1-8 in 1958-1959, vs. how he drew them on this new cover.
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That cover appears to have been inked by Vince Colletta,
who also inked Kirby's work on Thor and The Fantastic Four, back around 1965 - 66.
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Beardguy57 said:
That cover appears to have been inked by Vince Colletta,
who also inked Kirby's work on Thor and The Fantastic Four, back around 1965 - 66. Yeah Beardguy, that cover is inked by Colletta. As you say, Colletta inked almost the entire THOR run by Kirby, From about issue 110-177, and 179. Except for a few fill-in inks by Bill Everett and a few others. And it was on THOR that I grew to appreciate Colletta, especially on Kirby. Colletta also inked almost all of Kirby's earliest 70's DC work, including Kirby's JIMMY OLSEN run (issues 133-139, 141-145, and 148, to be precise). I own a page of original art from issue 148. In addition, Colletta also inked FOREVER PEOPLE 1-5, NEW GODS 1-4, and MISTER MIRACLE 1-4, before Mike Royer was hired to replace him as Kirby's DC inker. And SPIRIT WORLD # 1. And DAYS OF THE MOB # 1. The machinery border between the images on this SUPER DC GIANT CHALLENGERS cover is similar to the panel layout in the opening pages of MISTER MIRACLE # 2 (introducing Overlord as a character). And also similar to a giant TV screen shown in FANTASTIC FOUR 62, a double-page spread on pages 2 and 3. This is one I enlarged and had framed, as part of the home-comic-art-museum that is my home.  Colletta inked only a few issues of FANTASTIC FOUR, but they were lavishly detailed, in issues 40-43, and FF ANNUAL 3 (the wedding of Reed and Sue Richards). At his peak, Colletta is one of the best. Although at some point in the mid-60's Colletta began cutting corners, erasing backgrounds and filling over large areas of detail with black. Colletta was perhaps the only inker Kirby requested not ink his work because of this. At least temporarily. But I guess Colletta shaped up, because he not only began inking Kirby at Marvel again after Kirby had him removed, but he even followed as Kirby's inker in 1970-1971 when Kirby moved to DC. Sinnott began his inking run on Kirby's FF with issue 44, and stayed as the regular FF inker until the end of Kirby's run with issue 102, and one last issue I don't have, issue 108. Sinnott remained inker on FANTASTIC FOUR long after Kirby left the series in 1970, staying through John Buscema, Rich Buckler, George Perez, Keith Pollard, an early run by John Byrne, and Bill Sienkiewicz, finally departing as FF inker in 1981, when Byrne fully took over FF as writer/penciller/inker with issue 232. One of the longest runs of any inker on a series. He waxed nostalgic to his death about how much he loved inking Kirby's run, and what a thrill it was to open his mailed pages and see Kirby's new pencils each month, and adding his own contribution to Kirby's.
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Maybe its me, but the more I read about Kirby it seems the more he comes off as a "perpetual victim," claiming that everyone ripped him off: Jack Schiff, Stan Lee, Carmine Infantino, etc. Every five or so years he'd decide whichever company he worked for was ripping him off, so he'd quit in a huff and go over to the other company.
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I used to let it bother me that my "heroes" were less than perfect, G Man...I would not listen to this musician because he had had a drug problem, and would not read that writer because he was highly conservative... but, over the years, I have learned to seperate the person and his life from their body of work. Otherwise, you run the risk of not liking anyone creative or famous because they are flawed.
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Joe Sinnott is my favorite inker on Jack's work, with Colletta a close second..now, does anyone here know how to pronounce "Sinnott"? Is it Sin - not? Sin - no? Thank you, Wonder Boy, for making this thread fun again! 
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Quote:
Beardguy57 said:
I used to let it bother me that my "heroes" were less than perfect, G Man...I have learned to seperate the person and his life from their body of work. Otherwise, you run the risk of not liking anyone creative or famous because they are flawed.
I have no intention of letting it affect my appreciation for Kirby's talent. I'm merely observing that Kirby seemed to keep bouncing back and forth between DC and Marvel every few years, each time claiming the other company had ripped him off.
There's that old saying "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me." It would seem to apply here.
Alternatively, you begin to wonder if, maybe, Kirby was a little quick to claim he was ripped off.
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Beardguy57 said:Joe Sinnott is my favorite inker on Jack's work, with Colletta a close second..now, does anyone here know how to pronounce "Sinnott"? Is it Sin - not? Sin - no? Thank you, Wonder Boy, for making this thread fun again! Well hey, it always was fun, it was just on hiatus for a long while ! I can't say for certain, but I've never heard anyone pronounce Sinnott's name in a way other than < sin- ott >One of the toughest names in comics is that of Bill Sienkiewicz, which is pronounced <sin- kev- itch >One I learned recently from an interview of the artist, Mike Mignola revealed the correct pronounciation of his name is < min- yo- la >. But before and since I read the COMIC BOOK ARTIST interview, everyone I know pronounces it < mig- no- la >. But back on the subject of Joe Sinnott, he is arguably the best inker ever on Kirby, and that is certainly the opinion of many. Sinnott started out pretty inauspiciously, inking one lone issue of FF # 5, the story that first introduced Dr Doom, with time travel and pirates. But even after reading this story, I didn't know until later it was Sinnott, and it was pretty indistinguishable from the other early FF issues. It would be four years before Sinnot and Kirby would collaborate again, with much more satisfying results. After 4 nice issues inked by Colletta (issues 40-43), Sinnott took over permanently as inker of FF. And Sinnott, beginning with issue 44, and staying as the regular inker through Kirby's last issue (# 102), couldn't have started at a better time. Sinnott made a name for himself overnight when he took over inking FF, bringing Kirby's pencils to a new level of refinement. And just in time, to be a part of what is arguably the greatest creative expansion of FF. On Sinnott's watch, we saw introduction of Gorgon, Karnak, Medusa, Black Bolt, the Inhumans,, the hidden Inhumans city of Attilan in the Himalayas, the Silver Surfer, Galactus, "This Man, This Monster", the Black Panther and his jungle nation of Wakanda, a downright apocalyptic re-match with Dr Doom, the Negative Zone, Blastaar, Him (later called Warlock), the Microverse, and a re-match with Galactus every bit as mind-blowing as the first, the Kree, and their Sentry, awakened at his hidden island outpost on Earth. A re-match with Dr Doom in Latveria, witches, the Skrulls and a wild UFO ride, imprisonment by the skrulls in outer space, a clash with the Creature From The Black Lagoon, and several more down-to-earth single issue human dramas. It was about 60 issues that, with Sinnott's inks, were truly " The World's Greatest Comics Magazine" as the cover proclaimed in the years they were published. Sinnott stayed on FF as inker through Romita, Buscema, Buckler, Perez, Pollard, Byrne and Sienkiewicz, up until Byrne took over as writer-penciller-inker on FF in 1981 with issue 232. So Sinnott certainly left his mark on FF, even long after Kirby left. But for me, and I think most FF readers, Sinnott's inks over Kirby remain his best remembered. --------------------  "This Man, This Wonder Boy..."
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the G-man said:
Maybe its me, but the more I read about Kirby it seems the more he comes off as a "perpetual victim," claiming that everyone ripped him off: Jack Schiff, Stan Lee, Carmine Infantino, etc. Every five or so years he'd decide whichever company he worked for was ripping him off, so he'd quit in a huff and go over to the other company. I both agree and disagree with this notion. I think Kirby did see himself as a victim to some extent. I don't recall the precise details, but apparently Joe Simon may have been taking more than his financial share of the Simon & Kirby art-team revenues, and at least the perception of that resulted in the quiet dissolution of their partnership in 1955. Kirby saw himself as a victim in the Jack Schiff thing, and what was no doubt a mutually hostile departure from DC in 1959. Kirby saw himself as a victim in his 60's period at Marvel, where Stan Lee became rich on Kirby's contribution to developing Marvel's "Universe" of characters, while Kirby not only didn't share in that financial success, but also had characters he created taken away from him and developed in ways he didn't like. I think this loss of creative control, more than money, was the reason he left and went to DC in 1970. Because at DC, Kirby wrote and edited in addition to pencilling what he created, and thus got full full creative control and credit for the characters he created. But again, at DC, despite arguably good sales, for reasons that were never logically explained to Kirby, his most treasured series, NEW GODS and FOREVER PEOPLE, were cancelled out from under him. And the remaining title, MISTER MIRACLE, was forced to change direction away from concluding the Fourth World storyline as well. So again, Kirby saw himself as a victim, who was jerked around, and he probably would have left DC immediately if he could have in late 1972. But because he had a contract with DC, he stayed until late 1975, and gave us KAMANDI, THE DEMON, OMAC, SANDMAN, and several other new series. And at Marvel from 1975-1978, Kirby again felt mistreated and jerked around by his editors. But to Kirby's credit, I think there is considerable evidence to support Kirby's perception of mistreatment at various publishers. Many back Kirby's account that in the 60's he was plotting as well as drawing Marvel's titles, and that Lee was taking the credit for what Kirby created. Steve Ditko left Marvel for virtually the same reasons: a lack of creative control, and a lack of credit for his plotting contribution. Years after their cancellation in 1972, many have looked at the DC sales figures for FOREVER PEOPLE, NEW GODS and MISTER MIRACLE and said they were good. I offered my own conspiracy theory in the WTF topic, that the books were cancelled to prevent Kirby from killing off marketable characters that DC owned. And there are many accounts to back up what Kirby said about his mistreatment at Marvel from 1975-1978. One particularly scathing was Jim Starlin's account, in a COMIC BOOK ARTIST interview, of how editors would paste up Kirby's art pages on the wall with derisive remarks like: "the dumbest story ever told" and so forth. And Kirby, when he didn't like the way he was treated, did leave and go somewhere else. But I think the frustration for him through the 50's, 60's, and 70's was: Where else can you go ?!?Once you've been fucked over by both Marvel and DC, and the other smaller publishers pay a fraction of what Marvel and DC do, where else can you go, except to leave the industry that you love? Which is what Kirby finally did in 1978, when he left Marvel to do animation for cartoons. In some of the cases, I think Kirby had legitimate complaints and limited options. In other cases, it could have been oversensitivity and getting overly angry about the realities of working in the creative field, and a bit of "he said/she said" rather than actual mistreatment. And in the cases of leaving Marvel and DC in the 1940's to pursue more lucrative work, and in the case of Jack Schiff who arguably just wanted compensation for brokering sale of the SKY MASTERS series, it could be argued that Kirby fucked over other people ! To some extent, it's in the eye of the beholder. And like yourself, G-man, whatever happened behind the scenes, it doesn't interfere with my enjoyment of Kirby's work at Marvel, DC or any other publisher.
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Here's a Kirby-focused Alan Moore interview from THE JACK KIRBY COLLECTOR # 30 :
The second half of the interview is, for me, the most interesting.
The interview begins with Moore reflecting on his first exposure to Kirby's work and its influence on Moore's own aesthetic sense and storytelling approach.
Later, Moore describes several tributes to Kirby in his own work, in the six-issue 1963 series, in SUPREME, and in
TOP 10.
I especially like Moore's described tribute to Kirby in the SUPREME series:
Quote:
TJKC: Could you tell me a little about the "New Jack City" story in Supreme [SUPREME: THE RETURN, issues 5 and 6] ?
ALAN MOORE: The basic story was that some sort of mysterious citadel seems to have appeared overnight somewhere in some high, inaccessible Tibetan mountain valley or whatever.
So Supreme goes to investigate and what he finds is this bewildering landscape which is in fact a great number of different landscapes sort of fused together. There's bits of it that look like a 1930s Depression era bowery slum, where he meets a kid gang and a costumed hero that the kid gang are obviously accomplices of. They have some battle with a suitably super-villain type. I believe we have a huge Atlas monster rising from the depths.
Supreme wanders down a tunnel to find himself coming out into a trench of a battlefield where there are lots of grizzled multi-ethnic soldiers: An obvious Irish one, an obvious Jewish one, an obvious Black guy, all very much like the Sgt. Fury line-up and a whole slew of patriotic heroes.
This carries on until Supreme actually meets the supreme creator of this world, who kind of turns out to be Jack Kirby.
This is very difficult to explain because it took a whole story to tell the story, but it's basically that this gigantic floating head changes from this kind of Kirby photo montage—the head is changing, it always looks like Jack Kirby drawn or both.
This gigantic entity explains to him that he used to be a flesh and blood artist but now he is entirely in the realm of ideas, which is much better because flesh and blood has its limitations because he can only do four or five pages a day tops, where now he exists purely in the world of ideas. The ideas can just flow out uninterrupted.
He talks about the very concept of a space where ideas are real, which is the kind of place to some degree all comic creators work in all their lives, but Jack Kirby maybe more than most.
So it's kind of an idea that being free of a physical body, this artist is then able to explore endless worlds of imagination and ideas.
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Just bumping Mr. Kirby's topic on his birthday (actually about 3 hours after the fact, my time).
Jack Kirby would be 89 today.
A few weeks ago, a collected edition of his ETERNALS series was released (originally published 1976-1977). listing for book HERE
The first two issues have some of Kirby's nicest artwork, especially the double-page spreads in both issues.
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Happy late birthday Jack Kirby!!!
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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Yeah, if Jack had to go, he at least left us with a lot to remember him by. In the ART OF JACK KIRBY book, a nice retrospective of his career, it says Kirby produced over 40,000 pages of comic art during his reign. And plenty of other unpublished pages that have been unearthed over the last 20 years ! Here's the Mile-High listing of Kirby's 19-issue ETERNALS series, showing all the covers, and quite a few interior pages.   [This image from ETERNALS # 1, pages 2 and 3, April 1976.
I have this one enlarged, matted and framed in my home. ] For some reason the two pages won't display side-by-side in my post here the way it used to. But if you click the "reply" or "quote" buttons below, and then hit the "preview my changes" button and scroll down, my post will display the two images side by side below in the quote-screen.
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My GOD that's fan-FUCKING-tastic!!
Wish I could draw like that!
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Yeah, great stuff.
Again, to be honest, I felt the first two issues were the best, and the art and story diminished (but only slightly) in the remaining issues of the series.
Clearly inspired by the Erich Von Daniken Chariots of the Gods books. And the whole UFO craze of the 70's.
My favorite of Kirby's work is actually his Fourth World series (from 1970-1972 mostly) in FOREVER PEOPLE, NEW GODS, MISTER MIRACLE and JIMMY OLSEN. At various points in time, each of the four series were my favorite.
Although not of the same prose level as, say, Alan Moore, these stories have great literary/symbolic elements, that leave vast room for expansion.
From which only a few writers and artists have had the dedication and talent to satisfyingly expand on Kirby's Fourth World vision ("The Great Darkness Saga" in LEGION 287-294 by Levitz and Giffen, for example).
But when Kirby left DC and came back to Marvel in 1976, and ETERNALS # 1 came out, Kirby showed that that his enormous storytelling power had not diminished in the move.
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My fav Kirby era : Fantastic Four issues # 1 through #103.
His best work was from issues #37 or so to about #70.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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I thought his opening post sounded familiar check this out http://www.marvel.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1645He copied it from those guys!
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I remember that while reading this last year, I did think it seemed more like a conversation between two posters than an essay by one person.
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He always talks about morals but I guess stealing isnt considered wrong by his ilk.
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Maybe he stole the porn he posted at the Women's forum from some other website, too!
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"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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Well, I like Kirby art...
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Return to sender, address unknown?
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok.
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brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
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OP
brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 25,308 Likes: 37 |
One of the things that made ETERNALS stand out was the inking by John Verpoorten, who worked in Marvel's production department for many years, before he was recruited to ink Kirby's ETERNALS.  [ ETERNALS 2, page 1] I think Verpoorten's inks were especially good on Kirby. Mike Royer's inks, which were great in 1972, got a little muddy in the late 70's. Verpoorten has a cleaner inking style. Verpoorten died of a heart attack in 1977 (I remember reading he was over 300 pounds! )and others inked the remaining issues of ETERNALS that Kirby pencilled after. But the Verpoorten-inked pages are beautiful work that lives on.   [ETERNALS 2, pages 2 and 3 ] I also like D.Bruce Berry's inks over Kirby at DC in 1974-1975, on JUSTICE INC, O.M.A.C., KAMANDI, OUR FIGHTING FORCES and FIRST ISSUE SPECIAL, plus a few other stories. And on a few issues of CAPTAIN AMERICA when Kirby came back to Marvel in 1976.  Yeah, I stole it from August 31, 2006, then I went back in time three years, and started this topic. That's how I did it ! Retroactive plagiarism, all the way, baby ! The guys at the other linked topic, where you click-and-dragged posts from this one to, must wonder what's going on.
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 46,308
Who will I break next? 15000+ posts
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Who will I break next? 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 46,308 |
Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
[image][/image]
[image][/image]
You're supposed to put links between those tags. The pics don't just magically appear.
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 Likes: 2
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
One of the things that made ETERNALS stand out was the inking by John Verpoorten, who worked in Marvel's production department for many years, before he was recrutied to ink Kirby's ETERNALS.
[image][/image]
I think Verpoorten's inks were especially good on Kirby. Mike Royer's inks, which were great in 1972, got a little muddy in the late 70's, Verpoorten has a cleaner inking style.
Verpoorten died of a heart attack in 1977 (I remember reading he was over 300 pounds! )and others inked the remaining issues of ETERNALS that Kirby pencilled after. But the Verpoorten-inked pages are beautiful work that lives on.
[image][/image]
I also like D.Bruce Berry's inks over Kirby at DC in 1974-1975, on JUSTICE INC, O.M.A.C., KAMANDI, OUR FIGHTING FORCES and FIRST ISSUE SPECIAL, and a few other stories.
And on a few issues of CAPTAIN AMERICA when Kirby came back to Marvel in 1976.
Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
I thought his opening post sounded familiar check this out http://www.marvel.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1645
He copied it from those guys!
Yeah, stole it from August 31, 2006, then I went back in time three years, and started this topic.
That's how I did it ! Retroactive plagiarism, all the way, baby !
The guys at the other linked topic, where you click-and-dragged posts from this one to, must wonder what's going on.
the circle of lies continue.
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 25,308 Likes: 37
brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
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OP
brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 25,308 Likes: 37 |
Quote:
rex said:
Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
[image][/image]
[image][/image]
You're supposed to put links between those tags. The pics don't just magically appear.
I didn't want to lose what I wrote, so I posted, and added the links after.
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 46,308
Who will I break next? 15000+ posts
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Who will I break next? 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 46,308 |
Because its so hard to open another browser window?
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920
devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
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devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 33,920 |
You'll have to excuse WB, he's been under a lot of pressure lately.
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 25,308 Likes: 37
brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
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OP
brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 25,308 Likes: 37 |
Quote:
Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
You'll have to excuse WB, he's been under a lot of pressure lately.
Not at all.
I usually draft my post, then add the art images after.
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