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quote:
An interesting prayer given in Kansas at the opening session of their Senate. It seems prayer still upsets some people:
When Minister Joe Wright was asked to open the new session of the Kansas Senate, everyone was expecting the usual generalities, but this is what
they heard:
"Heavenly Father, we come before you today to ask your forgiveness and to seek your direction and guidance.
We know Your Word says, 'Woe to those who call
evil good,'
but that is exactly what we have done.
We have lost our spiritual equilibrium and reversed our values. We confess that we have ridiculed the absolute truth of Your Word and called it Pluralism.
We have exploited the poor and called it the lottery.
We have rewarded laziness and called it welfare.
We have killed our unborn and called it choice.
We have shot abortionists and called it justifiable.
We have neglected to discipline our children and called it building self-esteem.
We have abused power and called it politics.
We have coveted our neighbor's possessions and called it ambition.
We have polluted the air with profanity and pornography and called it freedom of expression.
We have ridiculed the time-honored values of our
forefathers and called it enlightenment.
Search us, Oh, God, and know our hearts today; cleanse us from every sin and set us free.
Guide and bless these men and women who have been sent to direct us to the center of Your will and to openly ask these things in the name of Your Son, the living Savior, Jesus Christ.
Amen!"
The response was immediate. A number of legislators walked out during the prayer in protest.
In 6 short weeks, Central Christian Church, where Rev. Wright is pastor, logged more than 5,000 phone calls with only 47 of those calls responding
negatively.
The church is now receiving international requests for copies of this prayer from India, Africa, and Korea.
Commentator Paul Harvey aired this prayer on
his radio program, "The Rest of the Story," and received a larger response to this program than any other he has ever aired.
With the Lord's help, may this prayer sweep over our nation and wholeheartedly become our desire so that we again can be called "one nation under God."
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quote:
Originally posted by whomod:
court houses and public schools shouldn't be in the religion buisness in the 1st place. That is unless you want a theocracy instead of a representative democracy.
Representative of the vociferous few who won't stop whining until they've gotten rid of everything that might offend them? :lol: (Not really referring to you, whomod - I've gotten in more arguments with you than I care to have already.)
The vast majority of people I know - hell, most atheists I know, which is quite a few - don't really care about the public display of 'religious symbology' anyway. To me, it's a political football. It's yet another 'hot issue' ![[yuh huh]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif) used to divide people. Politicos use it to try and turn anyone with even the slightest conviction in either direction into that much more cannon fodder to be used in the battles between political parties and interest groups who only ultimately care about getting the votes (really, the money) they're after anyway. It's only an issue because some folks with lots of money and nothing better to do decided to go after 'violators' of some obscure phrase that only appears in Constitutional commentary anyway... and then some more people who didn't agree, who had lots of money and nothing better to do, decided to fight 'em to the last man.
Keep in mind the phrase separation of church and state does not occur at any point in the words of the Constitution itself.
Just a thought.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
quote:
Originally posted by whomod:
When I was in High school, it was a different problem. You'd be asked to go home or remove clothing that was offensive to religion. Such as the Dead Kennedy's t-shirt that shows christ on a cross of dollar bills. Not once did i ever see anyone ever have to remove cricifixes or stars of David necklaces or anything. So to me it sounds rather unbeleivable and paranoid.
and yet it happens.
and now france, everybody's buddy, takes their stance on religious expression.
granted, "scarf-wearing muslims" don't exactly have the best stereotyped reputation right now, but...
just imagine the hubbub if dubya made this decision.
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quote:
Originally posted by Captain Sammitch:
quote:
Originally posted by whomod:
court houses and public schools shouldn't be in the religion buisness in the 1st place. That is unless you want a theocracy instead of a representative democracy.
Representative of the vociferous few who won't stop whining until they've gotten rid of everything that might offend them? :lol: (Not really referring to you, whomod - I've gotten in more arguments with you than I care to have already.)
The vast majority of people I know - hell, most atheists I know, which is quite a few - don't really care about the public display of 'religious symbology' anyway. To me, it's a political football. It's yet another 'hot issue' used to divide people. Politicos use it to try and turn anyone with even the slightest conviction in either direction into that much more cannon fodder to be used in the battles between political parties and interest groups who only ultimately care about getting the votes (really, the money) they're after anyway. It's only an issue because some folks with lots of money and nothing better to do decided to go after 'violators' of some obscure phrase that only appears in Constitutional commentary anyway... and then some more people who didn't agree, who had lots of money and nothing better to do, decided to fight 'em to the last man.
Keep in mind the phrase separation of church and state does not occur at any point in the words of the Constitution itself.
Just a thought.
Exactly! I know from much personal experience, many atheist friends, and all around indifferentists that they don't actually care what's put in the anthem or what's on our money or what wording we glance at when we drive by bill-boards.
Poeple who actually complain and say they have a completely indifferent background and are only keeping things civil and seperated are jerkin' yer chain for their sole benefit of....Pride I guess.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
and now france, everybody's buddy, takes their stance on religious expression.
granted, "scarf-wearing muslims" don't exactly have the best stereotyped reputation right now, but...
just imagine the hubbub if dubya made this decision.
In France's case, at least they were across the board about it.
The law also applies to French students wearing Jewish yamakas, and Christians wearing crucifixes.
It bugs the hell out of me in this country when Christianity cannot even be mentioned in schools, and then you have cases of Islam being openly promoted and proselytized, as in the police station I mentioned above.
There was a similar incident in Canada recently, where Canadian Federal Justice officials expanded federal hate speech laws to include sexual orientation. Canadian law enforcement can seize hard drives, if they are believed to contain "hate literature". In the specific case of those whose religious beliefs don't agree with the Canadian federal law on "sexual orientation" (which is, of course, code for homosexuality) for those with religious beliefs to criticize homosexuality will now be regarded as "hate speech", and is regarded now as a crime in Canada, despite the fact they know it as absolute truth that homosexuality is immoral.
To publicly state that Islam preaches hate toward the West --even though it's demonstrably true-- is also now regarded as a crime.
On September 9, 1998, an inter-faith memorial service was held for the 229 victims of the crash of Swiss Air Fight 111 in Nova Scotia. A Protestant clergy woman and a Catholic priest were asked by the canadian government's Federal Protocol officer to submit their funeral statements for pre-approval. A Native Canadian was permitted to speak of her people's tribal beliefs. A Muslim read from the Koran. A Jewish Rabbi read from Hebrew scripture. But the Protestand and Catholic priests were forbidden to read from the New Testament about Christ, because it "might offend someone" and were asked to just read from the Old Testament, which they reluctantly did.
Saying that homosexuality is immoral is deemed "hate speech" in Canada as well.
Yet Christian speech is limited, while Canada is willing to incorporate Sharia law, to accommodate Muslims in Canada.
In fair light, Muslim law given equal scrutiny (such as punishments for crimes including the severing of hands and feet, to say nothing for the treatment of women and other violent practices) would be at least as offensive, if not more so, than quoting the New Testament where Jesus says:
"I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:verse 6)
Or
"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save it through him."( John 3: verses 16-17 )
The Canadian legal standard is quite warped. I hope it's not a prelude to what will happen in the United States as well.
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quote:
Originally posted by Captain Sammitch:
The vast majority of people I know - hell, most atheists I know, which is quite a few - don't really care about the public display of 'religious symbology' anyway.
Then athiests in your area are very, very different from athiests in mine.
I don't know a single person that "doesn't care" about the saturation of religious symbolism in nearly all facets of life. I know people that tolerate it, because they're too polite not to, but that's about it.
quote:
Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:
It bugs the hell out of me in this country when Christianity cannot even be mentioned in schools, and then you have cases of Islam being openly promoted and proselytized, as in the police station I mentioned above.
The only situations I've seen in which Islam is openly promoted is when such promotion is used to combat the disturbing amount of violence and hatred shown towards those people and their religious beliefs, primarily because the 9/11 attacks.
Christianity would probably be defended openly(though, considering the number of Christians in America, I imagine the defenders would be the majority, not the minority as with Islamic defenders), as well, if a terrorist attack was organized by prominent Christian figures.
I'm not an expert on the Islamic teachings, so I'll step lightly when speaking on this subject, but to my knowledge the Koran does not refer to homosexualality as an "abomination"(or "detestable"), as the Old Testament does with Leviticus 18:22. Considering nearly a fourth(if not more) of the United states population are either bi-sexuals or homosexuals, it shouldn't be too surprising to see why that's an unpopular message.
quote:
In the specific case of those whose religious beliefs don't agree with the Canadian federal law on "sexual orientation" (which is, of course, code for homosexuality) for those with religious beliefs to criticize homosexuality will now be regarded as "hate speech", and is regarded now as a crime in Canada, despite the fact they know it as absolute truth that homosexuality is immoral.
I'm not quite following you here, who knows that it's an absolute truth? The people enforcing the rule? The people being enforced? Or just Canadians in general?
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betrayal and collapse 5000+ posts
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Whoever mentioned the Pledge of Alliegence and the "under God" portion:
Wasn't added until 1954 (or thereabouts) as a response to America's fling with hating communism.
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quote:
Originally posted by theory9:
Whoever mentioned the Pledge of Alliegence and the "under God" portion:
Wasn't added until 1954 (or thereabouts) as a response to America's fling with hating communism.
That's true, Theory9.
The Pledge, as originally written was said for decades without "under God".
The "under god" part was added, as you say, to contrast the United States further from the so called "godless" standard of communism.
I favor including the "under God" in the pledge, because I see it as very consistent with the writings of the those who originally drafted the Constitution and Declaration, who clearly felt Christianity and teaching of the Bible was an essential element in a healthy and enduring democracy, and the absence of which caused all previous attempts at democracy to fail.
So I can see saying that "under God" was a recent addition to the Pledge, and that in light of it being a recent addition, it wouldn't be a big problem to omit it.
Even though I personally prefer it with the "under God" inclusion, which I find consistent with the framers' original intent, and not a deviation from what our nation's foundation was intended to be from its beginning.
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Perhaps schools with a clear Christian, Catholic or Jewish agenda could/can maintain the stanza. I wouldn't have a problem with that.
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curious -- if they're getting technical enough to add or remove specific phrases from the pledge... why not just jump the gun and remove the speech all together?
how many years are we away from people saying they don't want their kids to have to stand up and chant these wicked incantations with the rest of the class.
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quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:
It bugs the hell out of me in this country when Christianity cannot even be mentioned in schools, and then you have cases of Islam being openly promoted and proselytized, as in the police station I mentioned above.
The only situations I've seen in which Islam is openly promoted is when such promotion is used to combat the disturbing amount of violence and hatred shown towards those people and their religious beliefs, primarily because the 9/11 attacks.
Well, hello, it was 9-11 !
We're talking here about a rather extreme event. A clearly stated Muslim attack on the U.S.
Even so, it was remarked by a Muslim commentator, who said well before 9-11 she was spat on in the street in Paris (hostility toward the 4 million Muslims there by many French citizens being rather high, and regarded as an intrusion on French culture). And in contrast, she said when she apprehensively visited New York after 9-11, her visit was without incident. That she was actually kindly treated in New York. That most people clud separate the extremists from other Muslims.
Of the 7 million Muslims in the United States, I think less than 5 were killed in backlash incidents by angry Americans after 9-11.
The only death I can recall offhand was a Hindu Sikh who worked at a convenience store and was shot because he was mistaken for a Muslim, because ofg the ceremonial turban he wore.
Many commented on how few incidents there were of angry-American-on-Muslim post 9-11 violence. And how there would have been many more incidents if a similar terror incident had occurred in another country.
And even so, I don't recall any incidents occurring in high schools or colleges, where Islam is being taught.
quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Christianity would probably be defended openly(though, considering the number of Christians in America, I imagine the defenders would be the majority, not the minority as with Islamic defenders), as well, if a terrorist attack was organized by prominent Christian figures.
That statement seems contradictory.
And again, the case in Canada is where a Protestant and Catholic Christian majority are restrained from talking even at a funeral service about Christ, while all minority religions are not given similar restrictions about "potentially offending" anyone.
quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
I'm not an expert on the Islamic teachings, so I'll step lightly when speaking on this subject, but to my knowledge the Koran does not refer to homosexuality as an "abomination"(or "detestable"), as the Old Testament does with Leviticus 18:22.
I've spoken to enough Muslims to know that they certainly don't look favorably toward homosexuality.
Can you truly imagine the Muslim world being more open to homosexuals than the United States or Europe?
quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Considering nearly a fourth (if not more) of the United states population are either bi-sexuals or homosexuals, it shouldn't be too surprising to see why that's an unpopular message.
I don't know where your numbers are from, but the psychological studies I've seen quoted in TIME and elsewhere say that between 2% and 5% of the population engages in any type of homosexual activity.
One study I saw in the early 1990's said 10% of the population has homosexual tendencies, but that population study (again, in TIME) was said to be a biased survey, conducted by scientists who clearly advocated the gay cause, and the study was considered less credible than the 2% to 5% ratio.
( Of the ratio of gay people I've met, even 2% seems overstated to me. But that's what the most respected reports I've seen estimate. )
quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:
In the specific case of those whose religious beliefs don't agree with the Canadian federal law on "sexual orientation" (which is, of course, code for homosexuality) for those with religious beliefs to criticize homosexuality will now be regarded as "hate speech", and is regarded now as a crime in Canada, despite the fact they know it as absolute truth that homosexuality is immoral.
I'm not quite following you here, who knows that it's an absolute truth? The people enforcing the rule? The people being enforced? Or just Canadians in general?
For Bible-Believing Christians, the Bible is the word of God, and clearly states God's position on homosexuality, from Sodom and Gommorah in Genesis to Leviticus to prophesy of signs of the End Times before Armageddon in the New Testament.
In that sense, the truth about homosexuality is known to all Bible-reading Christian believers.
( And based on their own religious texts and faiths, the truth of Jews, or Muslims, or Hindus and possibly other faiths for that matter. And they have a right to support or condemn different practices verbally, based on those beliefs. )
I agree that no one should be authorized to commit violence on another group. If Christians think gays are involved in an immoral lifestyle, then they don't have the right to beat them up or intimidate or lynch them.
The incident of the gay man who was killed in Wyoming a few years ago, wasn't done by Christians.
But Christians --and those of other faiths who don't endorse homosexuality-- who practice freedom of religion in a democratic society, have the right to believe as their faith teaches them to believe.
And to call it a "hate crime" for simply saying what the Bible and 6000 years of Judao-Christian culture says to be true, and to not allow Christians their democratic right to verbally and peacefully disagree with "gay marriage" or the gay lifestyle in general, or peacefully disagree with any other moral or political issue, is not exactly freedom of religion, and not exactly a democratic society.
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:
Well, hello, it was 9-11 !
And it demonstrates just how ignorant we are when people equate such attacks(in a horrendously general manner, even) with a religion that does not condone or encourage violence whatsoever. What tyrants(and their zealous followers) of certain middle eastern nations do they do as individuals, not representatives of Islamic ideals.
quote:
It was remarked by a Muslim commentator, who said well before 9-11 she was spat on in Paris (hostility toward the 4 million Muslims there by many French citizens being rather high, and regarded as an intrusion on French culture), and in contrast said when she apprehensively visited New York after 9-11 her visit was without incident. That she was kindly treated.
Of the 7 million Muslims in the United States, I think less than 5 were killed in backlash incidents by angry Americans after 9-11. The only death I can recall offhand was a Hindu Sikh who worked at a convenience store and was shot because he was mistaken for a Muslim.
Many commented on how few incidents there were of angry-American-on-Muslim violence, and how there would have been many more incidents if a similar terror incident had occurred in another country.
Just because there hasn't been an overwhelming number of reported incidents doesn't mean such hatred doesn't exist. Murder is a pretty extreme circumstance. I'd imagine simple harrassment is far more common, but just as effective and demoralizing to the victims.
I'm not sure I agree with your last cite there. Perhaps as the most diverse country in the world there would be a slightly greater deal of sympathy, but I wouldn't exactly say that America is the epitome of moral kindness and decency.
quote:
That statement seems contradictory.
How so?
quote:
And again, the case in Canada is where a Protestant and Catholic Christian majority are restrained from talking even at a funeral service about Christ, while all minority religions are not given similar restrictions about "potentially offending" anyone.
At any funeral service, or just those involving a family of differing beliefs?
If it's any funeral service, that sounds quite bizarre.
quote:
I've spoken to enough Muslims to know that they certainly don't look favorably toward homosexuality.
Not the point. It's not about what the people believe. It's about what's law.
Beliefs can be kept personal. Beliefs aren't usually forced on other people unless they're supported by scripture or other sacred doctrine that's often followed dogmatically and recited like evidence.
I don't think there's nothing wrong with a belief. You have yours, I have mine. If they don't always overlap, oh well. It's when a hurtful belief is etched in stone and made truth, when it crosses over from opinion to fact, that's when trouble begins to brew. That's when I think it's wrong.
quote:
I don't know where you get your numbers from, but the psychological studies I've seen quoted in TIME and elsewhere say that between 2% and 5% of the population engages in any type of homosexual activity.
One study I saw in the early 1990's said 10% of the population has homosexual tendencies, but that one (again, in TIME) was said to be a biased study conducted by scientists who clearly advocated the gay cause, and the study was considered less credible than the 2% to 5% ratio.
( Of the ratio of gay people I've met, even 2% seems overstated to me, but that's what the most respected report I've seen estimates. )
The studies I've seen determine similar results on homosexuality as a lifetstyle(not a "tendency"), but I was including bi-sexual individuals as well. I suppose I was a bit off. I've met almost as many gay/lesbian/bi-sexual people as I have non-gay/lesbian/bi-sexual people(says something about the comic book reading community, doesn't it?), so I don't think the "personal ratio" really means much.
I'll revise:
Considering a great deal of the United states population is made up of individuals who are either bi-sexuals, homosexuals, or support gay rights, it shouldn't be too surprising to see why that's an unpopular message.
quote:
For Bible-Believing Christians (or Jews, or Muslims, or Hindus and possibly other faiths for that matter) the Bible is the word of God, and clearly states God's position on homosexuality, from Sodom and Gommorah in Genesis to Leviticus to prophesy of signs of the End Times before Armageddon in the New Testament.
In that sense, the truth about homosexuality is known to all believers.
Ah, ok, thanks for the clarification. I thought you were saying that all Canadians thought(or should think) homosexuality is immoral, which had me confused.
quote:
I agree that no one should be authorized to commit violence on another group. If Christians think gays are involved in an immoral lifestyle, then they don't have the right to beat them up or intimidate or lynch them.
We are certainly in agreement on this.
quote:
The incident of the gay man who was killed in Wyoming a few years ago, wasn't done by Christians.
No, but Fred Phelps, the man who is trying to erect a monument for Matthew Shepard(the victim) stating "Matthew Shepard entered Hell October 12, 1998 in defiance of God", and operator of the now famous godhatesfags.com website, is Christian.
quote:
And to call it a "hate crime" for simply saying what the Bible and 6000 years of Judao-Christian culture says to be true, and to not allow Christians their democratic right to verbally and peacefully disagree with "gay marriage" or the gay lifestyle in general, or peacefully disagree with any other moral or political issue, is not exactly freedom of religion, and not exactly a democratic society.
Christians can still disagree with gay marriage and the gay lifestyle in general. They simply must accept that it is going to be viewed as hateful, just as the preachings(even peaceful preachings) of neo-nazism and white supremacy are viewed as hateful, even though they, too, consider their beliefs to be absolute God-spoken truths.
Unless I'm missing something important(and please correct me if I am), Christians can still protest and preach against homosexuality verbally, in their own circles. What they cannot do, however, is deprive homosexuals of their democratic rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:
Well, hello, it was 9-11 !
And it demonstrates just how ignorant we are when people equate such attacks(in a horrendously general manner, even) with a religion that does not condone or encourage violence whatsoever. What tyrants(and their zealous followers) of certain middle eastern nations do they do as individuals, not representatives of Islamic ideals.
I strongly disagree. I've quoted some of what Palestinian, Egyptian, Iranian,Indonesian, Afghani, Iraqi and Syrian clerics have said about Israel and the West on other topics. And about some of the violent and fanatical practices that are widely held in the Muslim world.
It's not a case of a small number of muslims believing in violence and practicing it in the name of Allah. It's that such a frightening number of them do.
Suicide bombings.
Children running across minefields in the Iran/Iraq war, martyring themselves for Allah.
Muslims in the U.S. --teenage Muslims born and educated in the U.S.-- interviewed on 60 Minutes who, frighteningly enough, say if they blew up a U.S. military base as suicide bombers, they would go to heaven.
Brutal treatment of women. A woman can't even drive a car in Saudi Arabia, let alone travel without her husband's permission.
See just a few examples I previously gave on this topic:
"Islamic Ignorance"
http://www.rkmbs.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=206064&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
Quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:
It was remarked by a Muslim commentator, who said well before 9-11 she was spat on in Paris (hostility toward the 4 million Muslims there by many French citizens being rather high, and regarded as an intrusion on French culture), and in contrast said when she apprehensively visited New York after 9-11 her visit was without incident. That she was kindly treated.
Of the 7 million Muslims in the United States, I think less than 5 were killed in backlash incidents by angry Americans after 9-11. The only death I can recall offhand was a Hindu Sikh who worked at a convenience store and was shot because he was mistaken for a Muslim.
Many commented on how few incidents there were of angry-American-on-Muslim violence, and how there would have been many more incidents if a similar terror incident had occurred in another country.
Just because there hasn't been an overwhelming number of reported incidents doesn't mean such hatred doesn't exist. Murder is a pretty extreme circumstance. I'd imagine simple harrassment is far more common, but just as effective and demoralizing to the victims.
I'm not sure I agree with your last cite there. Perhaps as the most diverse country in the world there would be a slightly greater deal of sympathy, but I wouldn't exactly say that America is the epitome of moral kindness and decency.
Uh...
I'm sorry, but I can't accept a phantom "vast number" that is never even mentioned with quantifiable statistics.
I think that attitude is precisely what has resulted in the balkanization of America, where there are all these fragmented angry majority and minority ethnic groups that feel slighted even when nothing but their own perception can account for it.
I happen to think America is a pretty great place to live. People come here from all over the world to escape persecution. It's not a perfect society, but it's damned good, whether you're white or black or gay or asian or hispanic or muslim or whatever.
It's not a perfect society, but it's still about the best there is on this planet. And our culture is constantly questioning itself and pushing for something better.
In contrast to what you said above, I would say that America is the epitome of moral kindness and decency.
We're a pretty friendly and open-minded people, and we open our doors to pretty much the whole world.
And also provide humanitarian aid and disaster relief to pretty much the entire world. Even places like Iran and Turkey, where Americans are arguably not that popular.
Quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:
That statement seems contradictory.
How so?
Just that the sentence doesn't seem to make sense. I think there's a typo, where you said "Muslim", when you actually meant "Christian", or vice versa.
Quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:
And again, the case in Canada is where a Protestant and Catholic Christian majority are restrained from talking even at a funeral service about Christ, while all minority religions are not given similar restrictions about "potentially offending" anyone.
At any funeral service, or just those involving a family of differing beliefs?
If it's any funeral service, that sounds quite bizarre.
I just said in my post above, the service in Nova Scotia for Swiss Air Flight 111, in 1998. A very public ceremony.
Quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:
I've spoken to enough Muslims to know that they certainly don't look favorably toward homosexuality.
Not the point. It's not about what the people believe. It's about what's law.
Beliefs can be kept personal. Beliefs aren't usually forced on other people unless they're supported by scripture or other sacred doctrine that's often followed dogmatically and recited like evidence.
I don't think there's nothing wrong with a belief. You have yours, I have mine. If they don't always overlap, oh well. It's when a hurtful belief is etched in stone and made truth, when it crosses over from opinion to fact, that's when trouble begins to brew. That's when I think it's wrong.
I again disagree strongly.
That's precisely the point. Beliefs aren't just beliefs, especially in the case of Christianity. Beliefs are verifiable truths, based on internal consistency of Bible scripture, cross-referenced with other sections of the Bible, based on the largely verifiable history described in the Bible that allows faith that the remainder is true, and the evidence of prophecy, much of which has been fulfilled, and much that continues to be fulfilled, such as the scattered zjews once again becoming a nation after 2000 years scattered abroad.
Muslims similarly believe homosexuality is immoral as well, because they, like Jews and Christians, are very scripturally-based in their beliefs.
Muslims accept the Old Testament scriptures up to the sons of Abraham. They believe Ishmael (and his descendants, the Arabs) are God's chosen people, instead of Isaac (and his descendents, the Jews). ( If you want to read about the split between Arabs and Jews, check out Genesis, chapters 16 and 21. )
But Jews and Muslims both agree on the account of Sodom and Gommorah (Genesis, chapters 18 and 19).
Freedom of religion means freedom to follow the scriptures you believe in.
Democracy means not discriminating against someone because of their religion. If a Christian, or a Jew, or a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a Native American in that democracy believes something is immoral, they have the right to voice it. And certainly, the freedom to invoke the name of their savior, Jesus Christ, without being told to change their public statement because it "might be offensive".
Short of inciting violence, they have that right.
Quote:
Originally posted by Animalman:
I'll revise:
Considering a great deal of the United states population is made up of individuals who are either bi-sexuals, homosexuals, or support gay rights, it shouldn't be too surprising to see why that's an unpopular message.
Well, I have to disagree with that statement as well.
It's far from a majority who are "either bi-sexual, homosexual, or support gay rights". Even among Democrats there is very divided opinion on gay rights.
A Chicago Tribune editor in a link I posted today to the "Canada allows Gay Marriage" topic, says that even in the Chicago area, which is overwhelmingly Democrat, this is a divisive issue, and a bear for politicians to deal with. Because no matter how they address the issue, it hurts a candidate politically.
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Originally posted by Animalman:
Quote:
Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:
The incident of the gay man who was killed in Wyoming a few years ago, wasn't done by Christians.
No, but Fred Phelps, the man who is trying to erect a monument for Matthew Shepard(the victim) stating "Matthew Shepard entered Hell October 12, 1998 in defiance of God", and operator of the now famous godhatesfags.com website, is Christian.
The Ku Klux Klan and other White supremacist groups who have all kinds of rhetoric against blacks and Jews would also call themselves Christians.
And Reverend Jim Jones, and his Jonestown cult.
And David Koresch and his Branch Davidians.
Out of a billion or so Christians, you're going to have a few whack jobs who have some radically different ideas than the mainstream, and clearly are not practicing scripture.
The stuff I sampled about Matthew Shepard, while harsher than what I myself would say, and while I would put more emphasis on God caring about gays and wanting them to repent, what is said in this FAQ section (of their website you linked) is very scriptural and quite close to my own views, regarding the specific scriptures about homosexuality, and the clear inconsistency of homosexuality with the Bible:
http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/faq.html
But with the clear difference (which I think their site misses) that I think this biblical scripture is useful to point out the wrong path, to then in a spirit of kindness lead gays and everyone else to the right path.
I'd never build a monument to Matthew Shepard's death, and endorse the circumstances of his violent murder, or count the number of days he's been in Hell, as this website does.
That muddies the Biblical message, and mixes it with things that I think stray, a bit unkindly, from the point of repentance and a merciful God who welcomes all who repent.
Actually "a bit unkindly" doesn't quite cover it. Man, that monument is cold !
And it's tragic enough that this poor 21-year old kid was violently murdered, but to pick this kid out of all the gays in America to build a monument to his burning in Hell... it must be real hard for Shepard's parents, on top of having their son killed. I just see it as pointlessly singling the guy out, for some massive monument of condemnation, that even the local Christians in Wyoming who constructed a previous 10 Commandments monument, are deathly embarassed by, and they --the local Christians-- are laboring to prevent the Shepard "in Hell" monument.
I think their site is on the mark with the Biblical points in the FAQ section.
But beyond that, some of their listed specific protests and activism and photos make me more than a little uncomfortable. Chanting "God hates fags", dancing on the graves of gay activists...
There's a huge difference between reaching out with a message of invitation to a better life, explaining how gays are at odds with scripture and offering them repentance and salvation; as opposed to this site, telling gays that God hates them.
I sent them a constructively critical e-mail, for whatever that's worth.
I think one clear mark of Christianity is whether it has reverence for the Jews, who are clearly God's chosen people through which His message has been brought to all nations and races through the Bible, Jewish prophets and Jewish kings, and ultimately its Jewish messiah, Jesus Christ.
Any branch of "Christianity" that denounces Jews, and ignores that Jesus was a Jew, denies that 11 of the 12 apostles were Jews, and most of the early church for hundreds of years were Jewish, and ignores that end-time prophecy is focused on Israel facing off with and being protected against a renewed "Babylon" (or a revived Roman Empire) is really in denial about what Christianity is, and through whom God shapes the world, past, present and future, through his enduring protection of the Jews.
And while men throughout the Bible disobey God, He allows them to suffer for a time for their disobendience, but ultimately wants to save them. And ultimately forgives them, and works events toward their redemption.
And ultimately, the Bible teaches to forgive others, as God has forgiven you.
Judgement is reserved for God alone. And to take vengeance is to cheat God of His vengeance, and thwart the will of God, diverting God's working of things to their perfect end, in His own chosen time.
And that God disapproves of certain acts, but ultimately want everyone to seek and accept redemption. Jews, Christians, gays, criminals, even Muslims. So no one is beyond redemption.
So violence in the Christian world, such as blowing up an abortion clinic, is something where Christians worldwide roll their eyes with embarassment. They clearly, in the vast majority, don't believe in or advocate such acts in the name of Christianity.
That's my problem with Islam, is that so many muslims DO agree with violence in the name of Islam, and see it as noble and heroic.
And that so frequently, the Islamic clergy itself whips up the rhetoric of violence and endorses it in the name of Allah, throughout the Muslim world, but particularly in the Palestinian territories and Israel, and in neighboring states.
To say nothing of the even more virulent Whahabism, and its offspring Al Qaida, spreading a gospel of Islamic violence and terror to every corner of the globe. The Phillipines, Indonesia, India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Iraq, Sudan, Algeria, you name it. Wherever their missionaries go, Islamic violence follows.
It's not a stereotype, young muslims all over the world believe in Jihad, whether they attend universities in Cairo, or Indonesia, or Islamic schools in the U.S.
I have no problem believing that millions, among the billion or so Muslims worldwide, practice Islam peacefully.
But I do think violence among Muslims is a rampant problem.
And not just a threat to the United States.
And not just to The West.
But to India and China as well, and to all non-Muslims worldwide.
And a threat to Muslims who don't follow the fanatical trends as well.
In Turkey and Iraq, among other places, a lot of innocent Muslims have died also, in just the last month.
And in the Kenya and Tanzania bombings, and in the 9-11 World Trade Center bombing as well. Islamic terrorism takes a heavy toll on Muslims.
So I tend to look at violence in the Christian world as an isolated embarrassment, and violence in the Islamic world as a widely taught and admired pattern.
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brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
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brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
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Posts: 25,469 Likes: 37 |
Holey Moley... They e-mailed me back with this link: www.godhatesamerica.com ![[woooOOOOoooo!]](graemlins/smilewoo.gif) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is SO far off the deep end... I'm embarassed to say I agreed with these guys about anything. It would be funny, if I thought they were kidding. Truly disturbing.
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Kisser Of John Byrne Ass 15000+ posts
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Kisser Of John Byrne Ass 15000+ posts
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quote:
Originally posted by whomod:
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
court houses, schools, pledges ... they're all being de-godded. by the time i have kids, the dollar won't mention god. ... hell(!!), by the time my kids have kids, churches wont mention god.
court houses and public schools shouldn't be in the religion buisness in the 1st place. That is unless you want a theocracy instead of a representative democracy.
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all these things are ridiculous steps, increasingly inching towards a world that can not offend anyone. pc phrases, leaders, tv shows, tshirts, etc.
how can you have "freedom of religion," then be told how to have it? the "church and state" argument, as far as i know, doesn't hold up, cuz he wasn't forcing the commandments upon anyone anymore than his driving a corolla to the court parking lot was forcing toyota on anyone.
It's not about trying to drive God away from America. The day that churches are told what to say is the day you no longer have any actual freedom. No one is going after any churches here people!
Again, unless we want to become a theocracy, no one is saying that what is said or displayed in a church will be taken away. However, a government building that is there for people of all faiths or no faith for that matter is not the place to make a stand of your particular beleif.
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however...
all that said, the bottom line is, if you're an employee, and your boss says to do something... thems the breaks.
if he (or she or they) says no god statues, no bicycle shorts, no eyebrow piercing, no sex changes, no yellow paper usage, or no red sox fans... you have a choice: fall in line or move on.
or, if you want to have yer cake and eat it too, you have to go about things via the proper channels (discussing it, getting a lawyer, awaiting a trial judgement, whatever). if he didn't do that (as a judge, no less) then he's in the wrong, regardless of what his cause is.
Well, it's not so much his boss saying so but the law saying so.
I just saw the good judge on CNN saying that he's being persecuted for his faith.
No, he's being 'persecuted ' for being the Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court and not being able to understand the concept of seperation of church and state.
Still, from looking at some of the pollls out there, most of the population of Alabama can't understand the Constitution either so it bodes well for him if he seeks higher office there.
It's amazing how we can criticize places like Afghanistan for having theocracies that impose the majority religion on everyone whether they like it or not and then not see the connection to what all these activist "christians" in the moral majority want for America.
That's actually Representative Republic...
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10000+ posts
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:
I strongly disagree. I've quoted some of what Palestinian, Egyptian, Iranian,Indonesian, Afghani, Iraqi and Syrian clerics have said about Israel and the West on other topics. And about some of the violent and fanatical practices that are widely held in the Muslim world.
It's not a case of a small number of muslims believing in violence and practicing it in the name of Allah. It's that such a frightening number of them do.
Suicide bombings.
Children running across minefields in the Iran/Iraq war.
Muslims in the U.S. interviewed on 60 Minutes who, frighteningly enough, say if they blew up a U.S. military base as suicide bombers, they would go to heaven.
Brutal treatment of women. A woman can't even drive a car in Saudi Arabia, let alone travel without her husband's permission.
Islam is the world's fast growing and most diverse religion, found in nations all across the globe. Clearly, it's largest base is in Saudi Arabia, but that is certainly not the only area in which it has a significant presence. This is a good website on the different Islamic practices and communities in Europe.
It's a difficult question to answer, whether or not Islam is a peaceful religion. This happens to be one of the few things George Bush and I agree upon; I think it is. A large number of non-middle eastern believers(which I think supports my belief that the cultural ideology of that region is just that; the cultural ideology of that region, not of Islam in general) have denounced the actions of 9/11 as a warping of Islam's message(the most notorious would probably be Cat Stevens).
Of course, as I've said on other related topics, I think this is the problem with all widely supported organized religions. The farther they spread from the original source, the more the message will become twisted, skewed and distorted to accomodate the political agendas of the nation it touches.
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I think that attitude is precisely what has resulted in the balkanization of America, where there are all these fragmented angry majority and minority ethnic groups that feel slighted even when nothing but their own perception can account for it.
No offense intended here, but I feel the same way about Christians that complain that their beliefs are being restricted, despite the fact that Christianity continues to dominate America as the prominent belief system.
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In contrast to what you said above, I would say that America is the epitome of moral kindness and decency.
Only in a truly fucked up world could that be true. And, sadly, it just might be.
....though, didn't you say a page or two ago, that:
"We've become a society with no standards, or at best, moral relativism."
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We're a pretty friendly and open-minded people, and we open our doors to pretty much the whole world.
Apparently not open minded enough to support gay marriages, a peaceful and completely harmless activity which isn't denied or even debated when involving non-gays.
I'm not trying to bash America, if that's what you're implying(and I don't think it is, but I'll say it just in case), I definitely can't complain about my position as an American. However, I don't believe that America is "better" than any other country(and I wouldn't know how to go about quantifying who is "better" than whom), and it's clear(just from my many encounters and conversations with foreigners, even with some of those on this very message board) that the rest of the world views us as snotty, arrogant and pretentious, enveloped in our self-proclaimed greatness. Perhaps there's something to that.
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Just that the sentence doesn't seem to make sense. I think there's a typo, where you said "Muslim", when you actually meant "Christian", or vice versa.
I just re-read it and I don't see it. I've never used the term "Muslim", anyway.
Basically, my point was that if a terrorist attack was organized by prominent Christian figures, Christianity would probably be defended to counter any possible backlash against Christians in America, just as I Islam has been defended to counter any possible backlash against Islamic people in America. Now, this doesn't mean that there actually has been a backlash against the Islamic, just that it's defended to help ensure that there won't be.
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I just said above the service in Nova Scotia for Swiss Air Flight 111, in 1998. A very public ceremony.
......maybe the Swiss aren't Christian??? I have no idea.
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Muslims believe homosexuality is immoral as well, because they, like Jews and Christians, are very scripturally-based in their beliefs.
Muslims seem to accept the Old Testament scriptures up to the sons of Abraham. They believe Ishmael (and his descendants, the Arabs) are God's chosen people, instead of Isaac (and his descendents, the Jews). ( If you want to read it, check out Genesis, chapters 16 and 21. )
But Jews and Muslims both agree on the account of Sodom and Gommorah (Genesis, chapters 18 and 19).
Then they're far less boisterous than the anti-gay protestors I've seen.
quote:
Freedom of religion means freedom to follow the scriptures you believe in.
Democracy means not discriminating against someone because of their religion. If a Christian, or a Jew, or a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a Native American in that democracy believes something is immoral, they have the right to voice it. Not to be told to change their public statement because it "might be offensive".
Of course, but a funeral is a performed service, not a public protest. Was this a request made by the party that put the funeral together, or a government madate?
If the group paying for the funeral doesn't wish to have views presented that they don't agree with, they have the right to ask that those views not be expressed, since, as I said, they're paying for the service.
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It's far from a majority who are "either bi-sexual, homosexual, or support gay rights". Even among Democrats there is very divided opinion on gay rights.
A Chicago Tribune editor in a link I posted today to the "Canada allows Gay Marriage" topic, says that even in the Chicago area, which is overwhelmingly Democrat, this is a divisive issue, and a bear for politicians to deal with. Because no matter how they address the issue, it hurts a candidate politically.
I didn't say it was a majority. I said a "great deal". There was a poll conducted after the Supreme Court overturned the "Texas Sodomy" that said that 40% of Americans(61% of Americans ages 18-29) were in favor of passing a law allowing gays to be married. If there are 40 million people in America, that's 16 million Americans that support gay marriage. To me, 16 million is a "great deal".
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Out of a billion or so Christians, you're going to have a few whack jobs who have some radically different ideas than the mainstream, and clearly are not practicing scripture.
Clearly not practicing scripture? The website I linked is filled with quotes from the bible. As is the Klu Klux Klan's website. Now, I don't think those views are typical of Christians. I've met and talked to more than enough(living in Texas, and having attended a Catholic high school) to know that's not the case. I understand that.
What I don't understand is how you can say that these are whackos with radical views that aren't representative of Christian ideals, but you don't seem to believe the same is true for Muslims and people like Osama Bin Laden.
quote:
That's my problem with Islam, is that so many muslims DO agree with violence in the name of Islam, and see it as noble and heroic.
I'll have to vehemently disagree here. I also have to say I think this is a fairly hypocritical and even slightly pretentious belief. I don't think there's much of any difference between Muslims and Christians, at least in their general beliefs and behavior. They're peaceful people who, unfortunately, have a violent history following their religion, and, in some cases, suffer for that.
I don't mean that as a personal attack, it's just my opinion.
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10000+ posts
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave the Wonder Boy:
Holey Moley...
They e-mailed me back with this link:
www.godhatesamerica.com
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is SO far off the deep end...
I'm embarassed to say I agreed with these guys about anything.
It would be funny, if I thought they were kidding. Truly disturbing.
Some more pretty disturbing sites.....
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