|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,801
terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
|
|
terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,801 |
Yes there is! I'm special! You can't make fun of my posts!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 920
500+ posts
|
|
500+ posts
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 920 |
Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
unrestrained id said:
Curious how G-Man allows your and JLA's pointless nonsense.....
Whether or not the Downing Street memo, or any allegation against a political leader, is substantive, or simply a "tinfoil hat" conspiracy theory, would seem an appropriate and on-topic discussion point.
Tell me why? Has the Downing Street memo been debunked by the British Government or have they acknowledged it's veracity?
I'm pretty sure it's been proven to be true and the British Government has not denied it's authenticity.
So tell me, where's the tinfoil hat material?
Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers
"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." - George W. Bush
I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would .. try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile. - Condoleeza Rice
Barbara Bush: It's Good Enough for the Poor
To comfort the powerless and make the powerful uncomfortable.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251 |
Quote:
unrestrained id said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
unrestrained id said:
Curious how G-Man allows your and JLA's pointless nonsense.....
Whether or not the Downing Street memo, or any allegation against a political leader, is substantive, or simply a "tinfoil hat" conspiracy theory, would seem an appropriate and on-topic discussion point.
 :cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry::cry:
Regardless of wether or not you think it's foil hat material is irrelevent to whether or not my post gets moved. I may be being sarcastic, but I'm still making a point and it's not the mod's job to decern wether or not my point is valid (the downing street memo is foil hat fodder) or invalid (Bush gets his orders from Hiltlers preserved brain and lied to the country so he could kill some arabs).
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 920
500+ posts
|
|
500+ posts
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 920 |
Congressman Conyers hammers the Washington Post's Dana Milbank
Quote:
June 17, 2005
Mr. Michael Abramowitz, National Editor; Mr. Michael Getler, Ombudsman; Mr. Dana Milbank; The Washington Post, 1150 15th Street, NW, Washington, D.C. 20071
Advertisement: Story continues below
Dear Sirs:
I write to express my profound disappointment with Dana Milbank's June 17 report, "Democrats Play House to Rally Against the War," which purports to describe a Democratic hearing I chaired in the Capitol yesterday. In sum, the piece cherry-picks some facts, manufactures others out of whole cloth, and does a disservice to some 30 members of Congress who persevered under difficult circumstances, not of our own making, to examine a very serious subject: whether the American people were deliberately misled in the lead up to war. The fact that this was the Post's only coverage of this event makes the journalistic shortcomings in this piece even more egregious.
In an inaccurate piece of reporting that typifies the article, Milbank implies that one of the obstacles the Members in the meeting have is that "only one" member has mentioned the Downing Street Minutes on the floor of either the House or Senate. This is not only incorrect but misleading. In fact, just yesterday, the Senate Democratic Leader, Harry Reid, mentioned it on the Senate floor. Senator Boxer talked at some length about it at the recent confirmation hearing for the Ambassador to Iraq. The House Democratic Leader, Nancy Pelosi, recently signed on to my letter, along with 121 other Democrats asking for answers about the memo. This information is not difficult to find either. For example, the Reid speech was the subject of an AP wire service report posted on the Washington Post website with the headline "Democrats Cite Downing Street Memo in Bolton Fight". Other similar mistakes, mischaracterizations and cheap shots are littered throughout the article.
The article begins with an especially mean and nasty tone, claiming that House Democrats "pretended" a small conference was the Judiciary Committee hearing room and deriding the decor of the room. Milbank fails to share with his readers one essential fact: the reason the hearing was held in that room, an important piece of context. Despite the fact that a number of other suitable rooms were available in the Capitol and House office buildings, Republicans declined my request for each and every one of them. Milbank could have written about the perseverance of many of my colleagues in the face of such adverse circumstances, but declined to do so. Milbank also ignores the critical fact picked up by the AP, CNN and other newsletters that at the very moment the hearing was scheduled to begin, the Republican Leadership scheduled an almost unprecedented number of 11 consecutive floor votes, making it next to impossible for most Members to participate in the first hour and one half of the hearing.
In what can only be described as a deliberate effort to discredit the entire hearing, Milbank quotes one of the witnesses as making an anti-semitic assertion and further describes anti-semitic literature that was being handed out in the overflow room for the event. First, let me be clear: I consider myself to be friend and supporter of Israel and there were a number of other staunchly pro-Israel members who were in attendance at the hearing. I do not agree with, support, or condone any comments asserting Israeli control over U.S. policy, and I find any allegation that Israel is trying to dominate the world or had anything to do with the September 11 tragedy disgusting and offensive.
That said, to give such emphasis to 100 seconds of a 3 hour and five minute hearing that included the powerful and sad testimony (hardly mentioned by Milbank) of a woman who lost her son in the Iraq war and now feels lied to as a result of the Downing Street Minutes, is incredibly misleading. Many, many different pamphlets were being passed out at the overflow room, including pamphlets about getting out of the Iraq war and anti-Central American Free Trade Agreement, and it is puzzling why Milbank saw fit to only mention the one he did.
In a typically derisive and uninformed passage, Milbank makes much of other lawmakers calling me "Mr. Chairman" and says I liked it so much that I used "chairmanly phrases." Milbank may not know that I was the Chairman of the House Government Operations Committee from 1988 to 1994. By protocol and tradition in the House, once you have been a Chairman you are always referred to as such. Thus, there was nothing unusual about my being referred to as Mr. Chairman.
To administer his coup-de-grace, Milbank literally makes up another cheap shot that I "was having so much fun that I ignored aides' entreaties to end the session." This did not occur. None of my aides offered entreaties to end the session and I have no idea where Milbank gets that information. The hearing certainly ran longer than expected, but that was because so many Members of Congress persevered under very difficult circumstances to attend, and I thought - given that - the least I could do was allow them to say their piece. That is called courtesy, not "fun."
By the way, the "Downing Street Memo" is actually the minutes of a British cabinet meeting. In the meeting, British officials - having just met with their American counterparts - describe their discussions with such counterparts. I mention this because that basic piece of context, a simple description of the memo, is found nowhere in Milbank's article.
The fact that I and my fellow Democrats had to stuff a hearing into a room the size of a large closet to hold a hearing on an important issue shouldn't make us the object of ridicule. In my opinion, the ridicule should be placed in two places: first, at the feet of Republicans who are so afraid to discuss ideas and facts that they try to sabotage our efforts to do so; and second, on Dana Milbank and the Washington Post, who do not feel the need to give serious coverage on a serious hearing about a serious matter-whether more than 1700 Americans have died because of a deliberate lie. Milbank may disagree, but the Post certainly owed its readers some coverage of that viewpoint.
Sincerely,
John Conyers, Jr.
It still amazes me that the conservative voices in the U.S. continue to spread the assertion that the media is "liberal".
If you didn't see the hearing, I urge you to find the next showing on C-Span. It was an incredible and riveting bit of history. It was also incredibly sad that the Republican leadership did everything in their power to prevent this from taking place.
http://www.c-span.org/
under:
House Judiciary Cmte. Democrats Meeting on Downing Street Memo and Iraq War (06/16/2005)
Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers
"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." - George W. Bush
I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would .. try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile. - Condoleeza Rice
Barbara Bush: It's Good Enough for the Poor
To comfort the powerless and make the powerful uncomfortable.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,801
terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
|
|
terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,801 |
Quote:
unrestrained id said:
...I urge you to find the next showing on C-Span. It was an incredible and riveting bit of history...
 Never heard those two statements in a row! 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251 |
Quote:
It still amazes me that the conservative voices in the U.S. continue to spread the assertion that the media is "liberal".
You're right this is as crazy as people assuming the're are people who want to force them to recycle or that the pink triangle is a mainstreream gay symbol. The media is by and large liberal. Just because they try and maintain an air of credibility by not reporting endlessly on some fringe conspiracy doesn't make them conservitive any more than a Conservitive talk show host would be considered liberal back in the day if they refused to focus on the Vince Foster "murder".
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232
200+ posts
|
|
200+ posts
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232 |
The "fringe conspiracy" grows ever wider....
Quote:
WMD claims were 'totally implausible'
Richard Norton-Taylor
Monday June 20, 2005
The Guardian
A key Foreign Office diplomat responsible for liaising with UN inspectors says today that claims the government made about Iraq's weapons programme were "totally implausible".
He tells the Guardian: "I'd read the intelligence on WMD for four and a half years, and there's no way that it could sustain the case that the government was presenting. All of my colleagues knew that, too".
Carne Ross, who was a member of the British mission to the UN in New York during the run-up to the invasion, resigned from the FO last year, after giving evidence to the Butler inquiry.
He thought about publishing his testimony because he felt so angry. But he was warned that if he did he might be prosecuted under the Official Secrets Act.
"There was a very good alternative to war that was never properly pursued, which was to close down Saddam's sources of illegal revenue", he says.
Mr Ross also says sanctions imposed against Iraq were wrong. "They did immeasurable damage to the Iraqi civilian population. We were conscious of that but we did too little to address it", he says.
Earlier, after the September 11 attacks on the US, Mr Ross spent six weeks in Afghanistan negotiating with warlords. "The allies didn't understand Afghanistan," he says. "They didn't have sufficient forces on the ground, were trapped in their fortified compounds, naive about the the willingness of the warlords to cede power, and were far too optimistic that opium production could be curtailed."
Mr Ross has set up a consultancy and advisory service, Independent Diplomat, and wants to raise awareness about the plight of the Saharawi people, displaced by Morocco from Western Sahara in defiance of the UN security council.
He plans to visit the 150,000 refugees from Western Sahara encamped across the border in northwest Algeria. "British policy is to do nothing because British interests dictate that fairly minuscule trade with Morocco is more important," he said.
WBM, to what ends do you seek to minimilize the fact that you and the rest of your countrymen (as well as mine) were lied to?
"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." - George W. Bush State of the Union speech Jan 28, 2003
"mission accomplished" - George W. Bush May 2, 2003
It does not require a majority to prevail but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brushfires in peoples minds". Samuel Adams said that. Pretty deep for a guy that makes beer for a living - The Boondocks
"A conservative is one who admires radicals centuries after they're dead" - Leo C. Rosten
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232
200+ posts
|
|
200+ posts
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232 |
Quote:
June 20, 2005
Kids get back Father's Day card after soldier dies
The Associated Press
MOSS POINT — Spc. Terrance Lee's young sons got a solemn reminder that Father's Day will never again be the same.
A Father's Day card that Terrance Jr., 5, and Ramone, 3, mailed to the Mississippi Army National Guard soldier before his death was returned from Iraq on Friday.
"His card came back just yesterday that the kids sent," the children's grandmother, Dinah Lee, said Saturday afternoon.
Ramone initially was excited, thinking his dad had sent him a birthday card, she said.
When his grandmother explained it was the Father's Day card they sent their dad, Ramone clutched the envelop close to his heart.
Then T.J. wanted the card, she said.
The compromise: they each took turns holding the card.
"That went on until they went to bed," Dinah Lee said.
Terrance Lee was killed by a bomb outside of Amiriyah, some 25 miles west of Baghdad, while on patrol the morning of June 11. Sgt. Larry R. Arnold Sr., 46, of Carrier also was killed in the same attack.
Both soldiers were part of Company B 150th Combat Engineer Battalion of Lucedale and deployed to Iraq with the Mississippi National Guard's 155th Brigade Combat Team, which is made up of about 3,500 Mississippians and other National Guard soldiers from several states.
At least a dozen 155th soldiers have lost their lives in Iraq since the brigade deployed in January.
Lee was a 1999 graduate of Moss Point High School and joined the Guard in 2002.
Lee's wife, Stephanie, is expecting their first daughter in September.
The couple met at Northrop Grumman Ship Systems, where they both worked. Terrance Lee was a first class welder and she is a pipe fitter.
"He loved to talk. He loved to laugh. He didn't meet any strangers," Stephanie Lee has said. "He lived to the fullest. He didn't let anything bother him."
"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." - George W. Bush State of the Union speech Jan 28, 2003
"mission accomplished" - George W. Bush May 2, 2003
It does not require a majority to prevail but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brushfires in peoples minds". Samuel Adams said that. Pretty deep for a guy that makes beer for a living - The Boondocks
"A conservative is one who admires radicals centuries after they're dead" - Leo C. Rosten
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 920
500+ posts
|
|
500+ posts
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 920 |
Quote:
Under fire, Bush acknowledges tough going in Iraq
By Adam Entous
Mon Jun 20, 6:54 PM ET
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush acknowledged on Monday the Iraq war was "tough" going but refused to back down from assertions that progress was being made despite Republican complaints about the administration's rosy optimism.
Bush's approval ratings have fallen to the lowest levels of his presidency in part because of growing pessimism about Iraq. Some prominent Republicans have openly questioned whether the administration's upbeat statements match events on the ground.
Asked if he agreed with Vice President Dick Cheney's assertion that the insurgency was in its "last throes," Bush replied that he understood "how dangerous it is there," adding: "I think about Iraq every day, every single day.
"And the report from the field is that while it's tough, more and more Iraqis are becoming battle-hardened and trained to defend themselves. And that's exactly the strategy that's going to work. And we will, we will complete this mission," Bush told a joint news conference with European Union leaders.
Lawmakers have also questioned administration assertions about the number of Iraqi troops that have been trained. Sen. John McCain an Arizona Republican, predicted on Sunday that it will be "at least" two years before U.S. troops can pull out.
"Too often we've been told and the American people have been told that we're at a turning point," said McCain, who described Cheney's characterization as inaccurate.
Another top Republican, Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, was quoted by U.S. News and World Report as saying the White House was "disconnected from reality" in its optimism over the war.
"Things aren't getting better; they're getting worse... It's like they're just making it up as they go along. The reality is that we're losing in Iraq," Hagel said.
Bush said he spoke to Army Gen. John Abizaid, head of U.S. Central Command, on Monday, and will talk to Gen. George Casey, top U.S. commander in Iraq, this week to get "an assessment as to how we're proceeding."
"We're making progress toward the goal, which is, on the one hand, a political process moving forward in Iraq, and on the other hand, the Iraqis capable of defending themselves," Bush said.
White House spokesman Scott McClellan said Bush's views were based on assessments from military commanders on the ground. He defended Cheney's "last throes" comment, saying he was referring to the "great progress made in going after the al Qaeda network in Iraq."  
Bush has begun shifting more of his focus to Iraq to try to shore up support for the war and his personal standing.
He will host Iraqi Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari at the White House on June 24 and deliver a speech about Iraq on June 28 to mark the first anniversary since the transfer of sovereignty to Iraqis from a U.S.-led coalition.
Fifty-one percent of Americans believe the United States should have stayed out of Iraq, according to a New York Times/CBS poll published on Friday.
If senior Republicans make the same assertions I do, does that make THEM antiAmerican liberals?
Quote:
06/20/05
Iraqi Lawmakers Call for Foreign Troops to Withdraw
By AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE, BAGHDAD
Iraqi lawmakers from across the political spectrum called for the withdrawal of foreign forces from their country in a letter released to the media June 19.
The move comes as U.S. President George W. Bush is under increasing domestic pressure to set a timetable for the pullout of American forces in the face of an increasing death toll at the hands of insurgents.
Eighty-two Shiite, Kurdish, Sunni Arab, Christian and communist deputies made the call in a letter sent by Falah Hassan Shanshal of the United Iraqi Alliance (UIA), the largest group in parliament, to speaker Hajem al-Hassani.
Some of those who signed urged that a detailed timetable be established for the withdrawal.
There are currently about 160,000 foreign troops in Iraq, including a 138,000-strong U.S. force, which has borne the brunt of attacks against coalition forces.
In the letter, Shanshal said the 275-member parliament was the Iraqi people’s legitimate representative and guardian of their interests.
”We have asked in several sessions for occupation troops to withdraw,” the letter said. “Our request was ignored.”
”It is dangerous that the Iraqi government has asked the U.N. Security Council to prolong the stay of occupation forces without consulting representatives of the people who have the mandate for such a decision.
”Therefore we must reject the occupation’s legitimacy and renew our demand for these forces to withdraw,” the letter added.
The U.N. Security Council agreed on May 31 to extend the mandate of multinational forces in Iraq “until the completion of the political process” following a request from the Iraqi government.
”Iraqi security forces have managed to break the back of terrorist groups and maintain security in the streets of Iraq, and have gained the trust of Iraqi citizens to arrive at their final goal, total sovereignty for Iraq.”
Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers
"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." - George W. Bush
I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would .. try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile. - Condoleeza Rice
Barbara Bush: It's Good Enough for the Poor
To comfort the powerless and make the powerful uncomfortable.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,952 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
|
|
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,952 Likes: 6 |
Quote:
unrestrained id said:
Under fire, Bush acknowledges tough going in Iraq
I'm not sure why Reuters/Id feels the need to create the misleading implication that President Bush is only now admitting "tough going" in Iraq. He was saying that even before he was re-elected.
For example, here's President Bush in the first debate with John Kerry, on Sept. 30:
In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. You know why? Because an enemy realizes the stakes. The enemy understands a free Iraq will be a major defeat in their ideology of hatred. That's why they're fighting so vociferously.
And here he is at an Oct. 26 photo-op with Prime Minister John Howard of Australia:
Q: Mr. President, the defense secretary has written a memorandum saying there have been mixed results in the war on terror, that it's going to be a long, hard slog, and no bold steps have been taken yet. Do you agree with that characterization?
Bush: What I agree with is that the war on terror is going to be tough work, and it's going to take a while. . . . We've got work to do. This is a long war on terror.
There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with the president, but shouldn't his words be characterized correctly by the press?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
|
|
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
You actually bothered to read those?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251 |
Quote:
PaulWellr said:
The "fringe conspiracy" grows ever wider....
Quote:
WBM, to what ends do you seek to minimilize the fact that you and the rest of your countrymen (as well as mine) were lied to?
Nothing you have ever posted ever comes anywhere close to demonstrating that the president intentionally lied in order to kill a bunch of arabs. You post an article that asserts one mans opinion and present it smugly as though the lids been blown off and you've proven your case. You've proven nothing.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251 |
Quote:
PaulWellr said:
Quote:
June 20, 2005
Kids get back Father's Day card after soldier dies
The Associated Press
MOSS POINT — Spc. Terrance Lee's young sons got a solemn reminder that Father's Day will never again be the same.
A Father's Day card that Terrance Jr., 5, and Ramone, 3, mailed to the Mississippi Army National Guard soldier before his death was returned from Iraq on Friday.
"His card came back just yesterday that the kids sent," the children's grandmother, Dinah Lee, said Saturday afternoon.
Ramone initially was excited, thinking his dad had sent him a birthday card, she said.
When his grandmother explained it was the Father's Day card they sent their dad, Ramone clutched the envelop close to his heart.
Then T.J. wanted the card, she said.
The compromise: they each took turns holding the card.
"That went on until they went to bed," Dinah Lee said.
Terrance Lee was killed by a bomb outside of Amiriyah, some 25 miles west of Baghdad, while on patrol the morning of June 11. Sgt. Larry R. Arnold Sr., 46, of Carrier also was killed in the same attack.
Both soldiers were part of Company B 150th Combat Engineer Battalion of Lucedale and deployed to Iraq with the Mississippi National Guard's 155th Brigade Combat Team, which is made up of about 3,500 Mississippians and other National Guard soldiers from several states.
At least a dozen 155th soldiers have lost their lives in Iraq since the brigade deployed in January.
Lee was a 1999 graduate of Moss Point High School and joined the Guard in 2002.
Lee's wife, Stephanie, is expecting their first daughter in September.
The couple met at Northrop Grumman Ship Systems, where they both worked. Terrance Lee was a first class welder and she is a pipe fitter.
"He loved to talk. He loved to laugh. He didn't meet any strangers," Stephanie Lee has said. "He lived to the fullest. He didn't let anything bother him."
I love how prepared you are to capitilize on the grief of the brave men and women doing thier jobs proudly. Although for someone so concerned with the safety of our troops you seem strangely silent when they're compared to Nazis by a US senetor or have no problem when the media rushed to publish unchecked stories that serve to do little other than endanger the troops more. Most of the stuff you guys post is just silly, but having many close friends and family serving proudly in the armed forces this kind of stunt alwayse upsets me. And when my buddies in the service read this they don't seem to "feel the support" rather they usually get pretty pissed off.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 25,469 Likes: 37
brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
|
|
brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 25,469 Likes: 37 |
Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
unrestrained id said:
Under fire, Bush acknowledges tough going in Iraq
I'm not sure why Reuters/Id feels the need to create the misleading implication that President Bush is only now admitting "tough going" in Iraq. He was saying that even before he was re-elected.
In addition to what G-Man and WBAM have said, I'd like to draw attention to the abused quotes of Sen John McCain and Sen. Chuck Hagel ( both Republicans, for any who don't already know that), who allegedly make sweeping condemnations of the Bush administration's conduct of the Iraq war.
John McCain was interviewed on Meet the Press by Tim Russert last Sunday (June 19th) for the full hour.
At no point did I hear him disagree with Bush or say anything as distorted as what he is quoted in "unrestrained id"/ "Paul Wellr"/Whomod's quoted slant-piece.
The most dissenting thing McCain said about Bush in a full hour of interview is that " The President and I are much more in agreement than in disagreement", and that they are in agreement about 85% of the time.
McCain went on to list several specific areas where he disagreed with the President, including tax reduction, stem cell research and other areas. But McCain did NOT say he disagreed with Bush regarding the Iraq war or the war on terror.
McCain said that mistakes have been made "as mistakes have been made in every war", but despite the setbacks there are some hopeful signs in Iraq.
All of which proves that use of this McCain quote, as so many similar quotes from key Republicans have been similarly misused over the last three years, are just so much liberal smear, deliberately taken out of context.
- from Do Racists have lower IQ's...
Liberals who bemoan discrimination, intolerance, restraint of Constitutional freedoms, and promotion of hatred toward various abberant minorities, have absolutely no problem with discriminating against, being intolerant of, restricting Constitutional freedoms of, and directing hate-filled scapegoat rhetoric against conservatives.
EXACTLY what they accuse Republicans/conservatives of doing, is EXACTLY what liberals/Democrats do themselves, to those who oppose their beliefs.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657
1500+ posts
|
|
1500+ posts
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657 |
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I love how prepared you are to capitilize on the grief of the brave men and women doing thier jobs proudly. Although for someone so concerned with the safety of our troops you seem strangely silent when they're compared to Nazis by a US senetor or have no problem when the media rushed to publish unchecked stories that serve to do little other than endanger the troops more. Most of the stuff you guys post is just silly, but having many close friends and family serving proudly in the armed forces this kind of stunt alwayse upsets me. And when my buddies in the service read this they don't seem to "feel the support" rather they usually get pretty pissed off.
What's your problem? PaulWellr posted a news article that illustrates the senseless nature of this war and by so doing is accused of "capitalaizing" on others' grief. He makes no editorial comment. Would it be different if some other reactionary like yourself had posted it?
You seem to believe USA soldiers do no wrong. When compared to Nazis because of their treatment of POWs you rally to their defense. My Lai? Hey, they were just lads up to fun. The genocide of American Indians? So what if a little raping and murdering happened?
They're our boys and we're proud of them! They were stupid enough to buy into Bush's patriotic bullshit and now I'm supposed to support them? Fuck You.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,952 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
|
|
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,952 Likes: 6 |
Quote:
magicjay38 said:They were stupid enough to buy into Bush's patriotic bullshit and now I'm supposed to support them? Fuck You.
Well....at least he's....honest.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,747
I've got more guns than you. 6000+ posts
|
|
I've got more guns than you. 6000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,747 |
"Ah good. Now I'm on the internet clearly saying I like tranny cleavage. This shouldn't get me harassed at all." -- Lothar of the Hill People
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251 |
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
What's your problem? PaulWellr posted a news article that illustrates the senseless nature of this war and by so doing is accused of "capitalaizing" on others' grief. He makes no editorial comment. Would it be different if some other reactionary like yourself had posted it?
Well, as with most debates and studies context is key. I'm not responding to a single post of Paul's as if it were in a vacume. I'm responding to the latest in a trend of like minded posts of his. You're new here so I'll let this slide.
Quote:
You seem to believe USA soldiers do no wrong. When compared to Nazis because of their treatment of POWs you rally to their defense. My Lai? Hey, they were just lads up to fun. The genocide of American Indians? So what if a little raping and murdering happened?
You still seem to have this amazing ability to read outside the lines (making assumptions that aren't implied as aposed to reading between the lines to infer what's clearly implied) I never said US soldiers do no wrong, but the comparrison to nazis is unfounded. Either those who make the comparrison know nothing of what the Nazis did to innocent women and children or they have no clue as to the humane nature of the treatment we give enemy combatants. IOW Either you overstate the behaviour of out troops or understate the behaviour of the Nazis, your choice. Oh and where the hell do you get any of my comments as having anything to do with native Americans?
Quote:
They're our boys and we're proud of them! They were stupid enough to buy into Bush's patriotic bullshit and now I'm supposed to support them? Fuck You.
That's fine. At least you're man enough to admit that you DON'T support the troops. My main beef is with those who want it both ways. And um...... F*dge you too..... I guess.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,205
fudge 4000+ posts
|
|
fudge 4000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,205 |
pardon me for saying it...
but you call guantanamo (or however the hell you spell it) humane?
it isn't until recently that they've begun releasing POW's incarcerated there.
These people had been denied their rights for so long that it can hardly be called "right"
 Racks be to MisterJLA
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 25,469 Likes: 37
brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
|
|
brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 25,469 Likes: 37 |
Quote:
Chant said:
pardon me for saying it...
but you call guantanamo (or however the hell you spell it) humane?
it isn't until recently that they've begun releasing POW's incarcerated there.
These people had been denied their rights for so long that it can hardly be called "right"
I answered all these points in another topic already, Chant
Newsweek lied, people died ?
HERE
It's very frustrating for me to see how distortedly this U.S. military action is portrayed in the U.S. by a Bush-hating liberal media, and even more so outside the United States.
Here's a PBS story detailing the facts concerning Guantanamo Bay, giving a very balanced detailing of both perspectives, from June 15th, when all this frenzy kicked up again recently:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/jan-june05/gitmo_6-15.html
With some talking points from the story and panel discussion:
BRIG. GEN. THOMAS HEMINGWAY: The rules of evidence and procedure established for trials by military commission compare favorably to those being used in the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda and the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. These rules are consistent with our national commitment to adhere to the rule of law.
BRIG. GEN. THOMAS HEMINGWAY: ... the primary reason that we hold people is to get them off the battlefield, and secondarily to gain intelligence.
SEN. JON KYL: They're not in a legal limbo any more than any other prisoners in any other war were in limbo when they were captured.
The concept here of capturing people on the battlefield is to get them in a position where they can't cause you anymore harm.
And, secondly, for those who can give you good intelligence information, obtain that information, too, to prevent further harm to your troops or to civilians in the case of terrorists.
That's the purpose for detaining these prisoners, these combatants who were shooting at our troops. Now, there are some who believe that they should be tried. Tried for what? You don't try prisoners of war. You hold them until the conflict is over with. There are some who have been accused of war crimes or who will be accused of war crimes. They will receive trials through military commissions that have been set up and the rules of procedure for those have been described. And they are complete and thorough.
And I don't know of anybody who is suggesting here this evening that those rules are not appropriate.
SEN. JON KYL: What's happened is that the U.S. Supreme Court has said that because Guantanamo is under U.S. control, some rules relating to U.S. procedures apply, including habeas corpus, which means that the people have a right to have their status reviewed.
And after that ruling, the status of every one of these detainees was reviewed. Some of them were released as a result of that review.
But the kind of people who remain held are terrorist trainers, bomb makers, extremist recruiters and financers, bodyguards of Osama bin Laden, would-be suicide bombers, folks like this.
They're the ones that continue to be held -- not in limbo as if they have some right to a determination and a trial by jury or something, but being held until this conflict over with so they don't cause any more harm.
Just bear a couple other things in mind here to put it in perspective. The idea here is to try to separate out those who need to be held from those who could be released. Well, we released a bunch of them and guess what? Twelve of them, at least that we picked up subsequently, went right back to fighting us again.
And, again, the point of keeping prisoners during a conflict is so that they don't go back and hurt your people again.
And the war on terror, it is true; they don't all come from Afghanistan. They come from a lot of places in the world and you don't know where they are going to strike.
SEN. JON KYL: Well, sure. That's been the case with every war. You wait until the war is over to release the prisoners.
This isn't sport fishing, you know, catch and release. This is serious business. What would you charge them with -- that they were fighting us and that they might fight us again and you're going to go back and find somebody that was in Afghanistan, this guy, and have him come testify that yeah, if he were released, he would probably fight again -- in no conflict ever -- just take World War II, for example, did we ever try anybody. We never charged the German POWs and tried them; we simply held them until the end of the war was over. And that's the same thing here.
- from Do Racists have lower IQ's...
Liberals who bemoan discrimination, intolerance, restraint of Constitutional freedoms, and promotion of hatred toward various abberant minorities, have absolutely no problem with discriminating against, being intolerant of, restricting Constitutional freedoms of, and directing hate-filled scapegoat rhetoric against conservatives.
EXACTLY what they accuse Republicans/conservatives of doing, is EXACTLY what liberals/Democrats do themselves, to those who oppose their beliefs.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
|
|
Your death will make me king! 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 22,618 |
Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
It's very frustrating for me to see how distortedly this U.S. military action is portrayed in the U.S. by a Bush-hating liberal media
I've missed this.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,952 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
|
|
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,952 Likes: 6 |
Quote:
Chant said:
pardon me for saying it...
but you call guantanamo (or however the hell you spell it) humane?
This former soldier argues that Gitmo is more humane that the training that soldiers go through:
For those of us -- and there are millions -- who have gone through U.S. Army basic training or Marine Corps boot camp the complaints regarding the treatment of the prisoners at Camp Delta in Guantanamo are laughable.
[US Soldier's in basic training are] forced to stand at attention in 100-degree heat for two or more hours at Fort Jackson or Camp Lejeune in full combat gear, with 60 pounds of ammo and equipment, waiting for a general inspection.
[Sometimes soldiers] had been up for 36 hours straight "G I-ing" the barracks, the company street, weapons and everything that moved or stood in the area.
"Drop down and give me 20, 30, 50," the training cadre would demand, and the shaved head recruit falls to the ground and completes his push-ups -- sometimes to the point of exhaustion for those not in top condition. The heel of the corporal on your back tends to make the task a bit more difficult.
Another fine element of training occurs when a drill sergeant's mouth is so close to yours his shouts spit saliva till it runs down your face. One flinch brings an order for 30 perfect push-ups or an evening of jogging around the company area with a rifle held with both hands above one's head while the miscreant shouts the General Orders.
Definitely too tough for those unfortunate terrorists.
Senator Durbin, whose biography shows he spent the Vietnam War in law school, knows nothing of an American soldier's training life -- and we are talking about only those first eight weeks of basic training, not the far tougher regimen for Ranger, SEAL, Recon or Special Forces.
He says he's appalled the Gitmo terrorists had to sit or stand in stress positions while under interrogation. What about crawling into and cleaning out an eight-foot deep grease pit attached to each mess hall. That's a nice little punishment for arriving late to formation. Or what about a 25-mile march with a full field pack, your weapon and ammo, and only one canteen of water?
Perhaps Senator Durbin doesn't understand what it takes to be an American soldier or Marine. Perhaps he thinks the families of the terrorists should be thought of before the families of the victims of 9/11 or those of our fallen warriors. He speaks of Guantanamo as an embarrassment. It is he who embarrasses those who have served.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 920
500+ posts
|
|
500+ posts
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 920 |
Quote:
the G-man said:
I'm not sure why Reuters/Id feels the need to create the misleading implication that President Bush is only now admitting "tough going" in Iraq. He was saying that even before he was re-elected.
I don't know where G-Man/Wonderbread/wbam feel the need to criticize the media or myself regarding this. From the quotes below, it wasn't Reuters or myself or any "liberals" criticizing the incessant rosy Iraq picture painted by the Administration... It was your guys. Don't shoot the messenger.
Quote:
"Too often we've been told and the American people have been told that we're at a turning point," said McCain, who described Cheney's characterization as inaccurate.
Another top Republican, Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, was quoted by U.S. News and World Report as saying the White House was "disconnected from reality" in its optimism over the war.
"Things aren't getting better; they're getting worse... It's like they're just making it up as they go along. The reality is that we're losing in Iraq," Hagel said.
Now if you want to call them Bush-hating Liars, then knock yourselves out.
As for our "humane" treatment of prisoners at Gitmo....
I seem to recall one story a while back about a soldier that was posing as an inmate there and was beaten to a pulp and still has trauma because the guards were unaware he wasn't the real deal.
Former Soldier Disputes Army Denials That He Was Beaten During Training Exercises In Cuba
Real humane....
Hmmm... one thing are those so called "trained to lie" prisoners, this however is something else altogether..
Let me guess.... he voted for Kerry and is biased against Bush, huh?
Try as you may to put those criticizing and reporting, on the defensive, these detention centers/black holes are against everything we stand for as a nation.
As for our recruitment shortages: Why don't we simply look to the existing citizenry who voted to support this war president (his words) and his war in Iraq? Where are all those tough-talking, yellow-magnet-sporting millions of voters now? The military should simply be targeting the young, Bush-supporting voters to walk the talk, since they consider themselves the uber-patriots of America.
Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers
"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." - George W. Bush
I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would .. try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile. - Condoleeza Rice
Barbara Bush: It's Good Enough for the Poor
To comfort the powerless and make the powerful uncomfortable.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,952 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
|
|
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,952 Likes: 6 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657
1500+ posts
|
|
1500+ posts
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657 |
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
What's your problem? PaulWellr posted a news article that illustrates the senseless nature of this war and by so doing is accused of "capitalaizing" on others' grief. He makes no editorial comment. Would it be different if some other reactionary like yourself had posted it?
Well, as with most debates and studies context is key. I'm not responding to a single post of Paul's as if it were in a vacume. I'm responding to the latest in a trend of like minded posts of his. You're new here so I'll let this slide.
Thank you MonkeyMan, your indulgance is greatly appreciated. I'm so worried about what would happen if you if you didn't grant me that.
Quote:
Quote:
You seem to believe USA soldiers do no wrong. When compared to Nazis because of their treatment of POWs you rally to their defense. My Lai? Hey, they were just lads up to fun. The genocide of American Indians? So what if a little raping and murdering happened?
You still seem to have this amazing ability to read outside the lines (making assumptions that aren't implied as aposed to reading between the lines to infer what's clearly implied) I never said US soldiers do no wrong, but the comparrison to nazis is unfounded. Either those who make the comparison know nothing of what the Nazis did to innocent women and children or they have no clue as to the humane nature of the treatment we give enemy combatants. IOW Either you overstate the behaviour of out troops or understate the behaviour of the Nazis, your choice. Oh and where the hell do you get any of my comments as having anything to do with native Americans?
I'm confused. You correct me for saying that I read something that was not there in your original post, then go on to make the statement directly? All the examples given are of bad behaviour by USA troops to captives. Does it make a difference if your torturer salutes the Stars and Bars rather than the Swastica:? !:
Quote:
Quote:
They're our boys and we're proud of them! They were stupid enough to buy into Bush's patriotic bullshit and now I'm supposed to support them? Fuck You.
That's fine. At least you're man enough to admit that you DON'T support the troops. My main beef is with those who want it both ways. And um...... F*dge you too..... I guess.
I support the troops! I think they each should be issued bras or jock straps, depending on gender. Oh, and I put a flag on my car!
'F*dge you too..... I guess' Poor WBAM! Wouldn't say shit if he had a mouthfull
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657
1500+ posts
|
|
1500+ posts
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657 |
Quote:
the G-man said:
We're going to give them all jobs as NYC cab drivers!
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 920
500+ posts
|
|
500+ posts
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 920 |
Quote:
the G-man said:
Republicans Take Aim at ”Gitmo” Messenger
Quote:
June 19, 2005
ROSA BROOKS
Is the Red Cross Red, White and Blue Enough?
ROSA BROOKS, Rosa Brooks, an associate professor at the University of Virginia School of Law
Not content with trouncing Amnesty International for its "gulag" gaffe or unleashing John Bolton on Kofi Annan, the Republicans have gone out looking for some more do-gooders to turn into punching bags. Mother Teresa is already dead, so they've had to make do with the International Committee of the Red Cross, or ICRC, the neutral, Swiss-based organization that has spent 140 years aiding victims of armed conflicts and monitoring compliance with the Geneva Convention.
On June 13, the Senate's Republican Policy Committee released a report condemning the ICRC. While grudgingly acknowledging the organization's past good deeds, the report insists that the ICRC's activities are now in "direct opposition to the advancement of U.S. interests." The evidence for this: The ICRC allegedly wants to "reinterpret and expand international law," giving terrorists "the same rights" as prisoners of war, and it has "inaccurately and unfairly accuse[d] the U.S. of not adhering to the Geneva Conventions."
Et tu, ICRC? Such ingratitude is particularly galling, the Republicans say, coming from an organization that, as they repeatedly remind us, gets a quarter of its funding from the U.S.
Regrettably, from the perspective of these GOP stalwarts, no one else has (yet) noticed just how sinister the ICRC really is. The report laments that with its sterling reputation as "an impartial organization conducting vital emergency relief," the ICRC "is exerting a very powerful influence … on how U.S. defense and foreign policy is perceived by other countries."
It's sweet that the Republicans are suddenly so concerned about the U.S. reputation abroad. Unless, of course, that's not really what this is about.
In fact, the real issue underlying the attack is that the ICRC has quietly but firmly pushed back against the Bush administration's "anything goes" detention and interrogation policies. The ICRC doesn't "denounce," it just "expresses concern." It nit-pickingly insists on citing the actual text of the Geneva Convention in lieu of accepting creative Defense Department phrases like "unlawful combatants," and, still more hurtful to true believers, it never uses the phrase "war on terrorism" without adding a laconic little "so-called."
That's what made the Republican Policy Committee so cross, and that's why it devoted a report full of blatant exaggerations to undermining the ICRC.
The ICRC has consistently chastised the U.S. for keeping an unknown number of "ghost detainees" hidden away from legally mandated monitoring, for its open-ended detentions at Guantanamo Bay, for its "renditions" of detainees to states using torture and for its use of interrogation techniques that themselves border on torture.
Last year, a confidential ICRC report on detention conditions in Iraq was leaked. With its findings of widespread abuses at multiple U.S. facilities, the ICRC report threatened to undermine the administration's Abu Ghraib damage control strategy: Deny, deny and deny, and then when you can't deny any longer insist that all abuses were the result of "bad apples" rather than systemic failings or (oh, no, no, no!) orders from on high.
With the "bad apple" defense now generating hoots of derision, the Republicans are shifting into Phase 2 of the damage control strategy: If you don't like the message, shoot the messenger. And if you can't actually shoot the messenger (under the Geneva Convention, shooting a Red Cross official is a definite no-no), discredit the messenger, preferably by implying anti-American prejudice.
If that doesn't do the trick, you can always threaten them with Phase 3: blackmail. The most ominous aspect of the report on the ICRC is its call for an audit of all ICRC activities to determine whether the organization is "advancing U.S. interests."
If it is determined that the ICRC isn't living up to its stated "principles of neutrality, impartiality and humanity," the report urges Congress to consider slashing the group's funds.
There is one glimmer of hope. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld would be involved in the review called for in the report, and everyone knows Rumsfeld is a exceedingly mellow guy when it comes to principles like "impartiality" and "humanity." For instance, to him, treating detainees humanely apparently encompasses "waterboarding."
So perhaps Rumsfeld will be consistent and stick up for the ICRC's right to its own understanding of "impartiality" and "humanity."
Still, if I worked for the ICRC, I'd keep my hand on my wallet.
You know G-Man, when everyone else in the world is wrong (or a "liberal") and the GOP position (humane treatment)is the only correct one, that's the sign of mental illness.
FBI agents and the Red Cross both concluded that techniques used at Guantanamo constituted "torture." In the past, the United States always has condemned the use of such techniques. Now we apparently approve of them.
No amount of cartoons annd besmirching anyone and everyone who dares criticize is going to change this.
Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers
"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." - George W. Bush
I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would .. try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile. - Condoleeza Rice
Barbara Bush: It's Good Enough for the Poor
To comfort the powerless and make the powerful uncomfortable.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,205
fudge 4000+ posts
|
|
fudge 4000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,205 |
Yeah, and besides, I wasn't talking about the recent newsweek incident, everyone knows that was a lie.
I'm talking about the treatment of the prisoners in general. I mean, come on!
No amount of articles will change the worlds opinion of that place. Even your own allies are critical of the treatment the POW's recieve at Guantanamo.
Racks be to MisterJLA
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251 |
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Thank you MonkeyMan, your indulgance is greatly appreciated. I'm so worried about what would happen if you if you didn't grant me that.
You're welcome.
Quote:
I'm confused. You correct me for saying that I read something that was not there in your original post, then go on to make the statement directly? All the examples given are of bad behaviour by USA troops to captives. Does it make a difference if your torturer salutes the Stars and Bars rather than the Swastica:? !
No read it again. You claimed that I said our troops did NO wrong and I then agknoledged that our troops weren't perfect. As far as your rhetorical device claiming that I'd overlook any behaviour as long as it was covered by the right flag was nothing more than an artfull dodge of my acctual challenge wich is that the behaviours of the two are not paralell. Take a minute and read a book. You'll find that the Naziz and Stalin and Poll Pot and the like treated thier prisoners in a manner far worse than tying someone up in teh fetal psition in a hot room while they listen to loud rap music and thier prisoners consisted of women and children taken from thier homes while our prisoners were taken from the battle field. Would I accept the torture of women and children in a prison death camp for the purpouse of ethnic cleasing just because it was under the stars and STIPES? (The stars and bars refers to the confederate flag. I though you astute enough to avoid such blunders) No of course I wouldn't. Would I accept making enemy combatants uncomfortable in order to loosen them up because they may have information regarding another 9-11, sure I would. As was pointed out earlier these guys live a better life than GIs. Tell me who do you think is eating better today? Elien Gonzales or the prisoners at Gitmo?
Quote:
'F*dge you too..... I guess' Poor WBAM! Wouldn't say shit if he had a mouthfull
Does that bother you for some reason? You seem overly concerned with which words I choose to use and when I choose to use them.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251 |
Quote:
Chant said:
Yeah, and besides, I wasn't talking about the recent newsweek incident, everyone knows that was a lie.
I'm talking about the treatment of the prisoners in general. I mean, come on!
No amount of articles will change the worlds opinion of that place. Even your own allies are critical of the treatment the POW's recieve at Guantanamo.
Are we concerned with facts here or opinions?
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,205
fudge 4000+ posts
|
|
fudge 4000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,205 |
opinion is something you have to be VERY concerned about, especially world opinion, if you aren't, suddenly you won't have any allies.
Besides, as someone said earlier, agents from your own FBI and Red Cross has stated that the techniques used are similiar to torture.
That's one of your own law enforcement agencies, surely they most know what they are talking about.
Red Cross most certainly DO know what constitutes torture and what doesn't.
And if you can't acknowledge the Red Cross, or one of your own law enforcement agencies, then you are in a sorry state indeed.
But then again, the definition of torture varies from nation to nation
Racks be to MisterJLA
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
|
|
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
Chant said:
opinion is something you have to be VERY concerned about, especially world opinion, if you aren't, suddenly you won't have any allies.
That's some of the most idiotic logic I've ever encountered. What if every country in the world was governed by individuals of the Joseph Stalin variety except for yours? Would you think it prudent to aliken your mannerisms to their actions simply to make friends?
Quote:
Red Cross most certainly DO know what constitutes torture and what doesn't.
And if you can't acknowledge the Red Cross, or one of your own law enforcement agencies, then you are in a sorry state indeed.
I'm not sure if you realized, but "torture" is a very loaded term. Not allowing someone to go to the bathroom whilst interrogating them and after giving them massive amounts of water can be considered torture. Would you want the precincts to stop practicing this technique because it coinsides loosely with the definition of "torture".
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,205
fudge 4000+ posts
|
|
fudge 4000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,205 |
oh, so by your logic world opinion should simply be discarded?
that sounds an awful lot like "we're the United States, and we can do anything we want, because we're the United States, and noone can do anything about it"
Racks be to MisterJLA
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
|
|
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
Chant said:
oh, so by your logic world opinion should simply be discarded?
Yes.
Quote:
that sounds an awful lot like "we're the United States, and we can do anything we want, because we're the United States, and noone can do anything about it"
No.
Have you, by chance, ever stopped to look at your country and note our opinion of it? How much weight of importance did you place upon our observations? Thought so.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,205
fudge 4000+ posts
|
|
fudge 4000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,205 |
Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Chant said:
oh, so by your logic world opinion should simply be discarded?
Yes.
Quote:
that sounds an awful lot like "we're the United States, and we can do anything we want, because we're the United States, and noone can do anything about it"
No.
Have you, by chance, ever stopped to look at your country and note our opinion of it? How much weight of importance did you place upon our observations? Thought so.
got'cha!
I very much agree with the worlds opinion on my own country (except a few minor cases)
But of course, how could you possibly know that I'm becoming more and more ashamed of my own nation!
Racks be to MisterJLA
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
|
|
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
Truly?
What has America said about Denmark that you agree with?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,205
fudge 4000+ posts
|
|
fudge 4000+ posts
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 4,205 |
I meant the worlds opinion in general.
But I can give you a few pointers. Denmark has often in the last few years been accused of being nationalist, bordering on rascism. Agreed!
Denmark has an oppressive tax system. Agreed!
Danish government and people are a bunch of pussies that goes "Oh my god, one of our soldiers in Iraq stumbled and got a bruise, we gotta pull all our soldiers home before someone get's broken nose" Agreed!
(no one really said the above argument about danish troops, but it's implied)
That's just to begin with.
One of the few things in my lifetime where I can say that I'm really proud of my own nation was when we stood up to China and the rest of the world turned their backs on us, because of the fear of being denied a huge market!
Last edited by Chant; 2005-06-23 11:03 AM.
Racks be to MisterJLA
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
|
|
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
Convenient. However, at this point in time, there's no credence for America to listen to the constant negativity from all over the world that we've been getting for the past 85 years. Especially since the country's divided itself. We already have our own consultants thank you very much.
Quote:
Chant said:
Denmark has an oppressive tax system. Agreed!
If you wanna keep Healthcare, it's gonna stay that way.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 25,469 Likes: 37
brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
|
|
brutally Kamphausened 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 25,469 Likes: 37 |
Quote:
Chant said:
opinion is something you have to be VERY concerned about, especially world opinion, if you aren't, suddenly you won't have any allies.
Please don't take this the wrong way, Chant, because I'm not directing it at you personally. I know you are posting an opinion based on what you've seen in the European news media.
But I do feel the global media --even more so outside the United States-- is very biased against Bush.
And that a news perspective that makes any attempt to argue the logic of Bush's Iraq or detainee policy is virtually non-existent, outside of the United States.
And even within the United States, you pretty much have to go to a select few conservative sources, such as the Weekly Standard or Wall Street Journal or Fox News to hear the logic of the conservative opinion given equal time, or any coverage at all.
Quote:
Chant said:
Besides, as someone said earlier, agents from your own FBI and Red Cross has stated that the techniques used are similiar to torture.
That's one of your own law enforcement agencies, surely they most know what they are talking about.
In an organization of tens of thousands, one can always find a few disgruntled employees or former employees in the FBI and CIA, who will speak negatively of U.S. policy.
That doesn't mean that the overwhelming number of agents don't fervently believe in the Patriot Act and other specifics of the Bush administration, in the war on terror.
Quote:
Chant said:
Red Cross most certainly DO know what constitutes torture and what doesn't.
And if you can't acknowledge the Red Cross, or one of your own law enforcement agencies, then you are in a sorry state indeed.
The Red Cross has historically, and to this day, been a great humanitarian organization.
But...
The Red Cross, being made up of thousands of individuals, is not above corruption, or above having a few select individuals playing partisan politics.
Quote:
Chant said:
But then again, the definition of torture varies from nation to nation
Yes, it does vary.
But the universally recognized Geneva Convention does not vary in its definition. And the United States has upheld that definition in its interrogation of prisoners.
The only exception to that has been at Abu Ghraib, where seven U.S. soldiers guarding prisoners (out of 150,000 stationed in Iraq at the time !! ) crossed the line, were reported by their fellow U.S. soldiers, were investigated by their fellow U.S. solders, were court-martialed and convicted and imprisoned for their actions by their fellow U.S. soldiers.
And the highest U.S. military officers in Iraq, and the President Bush, Secretary Rumsfeld, Secretary Powell, and succeeding Secretary Rice as well, have condemned these acts and said very clearly that this is not U.S. policy in the treatment of prisoners.
And STILL the assholes come forward and say the U.S. military is evil, and authorizes this mistreatment of prisoners as standard policy on a mass scale.
Give me a break !
The United States does interrogate prisoners and cause them some discomfort, but within the parameters of the Geneva Convention standard for the treatment of prisoners.
Those with a political axe to grind against the Bush administration can wax philosophic about the "inhumanity" of treatment of al Qaida prisoners.
But that is an allegation that goes outside the standard set by the Geneva Convention, in a partisan propaganda war against the United States, that uses emotions, not facts to accuse the U.S.
And I think that's the core of it, in both
1) the Red Cross
and
2) earlier allegations by Amnesty International that
Guantanamo Bay is a "Gulag":
Liberals with a partisan hostility toward Bush have more sympathy for terrorists who have murdered, and would murder thousands more if given the chance, than they have for the U.S. government that operates within established laws to try and stop them, in an unprecedented situation, fighting an army of terrorists, terrorists who fight a war without borders or specific nationalities, who can only be defined as criminals ( NOT soldiers), and not nationals of a specific nation the U.S. can be defined to be at war with.
Sympathy for the devil, and partisan politics against the United States.
- from Do Racists have lower IQ's...
Liberals who bemoan discrimination, intolerance, restraint of Constitutional freedoms, and promotion of hatred toward various abberant minorities, have absolutely no problem with discriminating against, being intolerant of, restricting Constitutional freedoms of, and directing hate-filled scapegoat rhetoric against conservatives.
EXACTLY what they accuse Republicans/conservatives of doing, is EXACTLY what liberals/Democrats do themselves, to those who oppose their beliefs.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,203
betrayal and collapse 5000+ posts
|
|
betrayal and collapse 5000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,203 |
...you tell stories, we tell lies.
|
|
|
|
|
