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r3x29yz4a said:
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Wonder Boy said:

I'd expand on WBAM's definition of "godless" liberals to be liberals who ignore that this country, from its very beginning, is deeply founded on Biblical/Christian principles (as made clear in the personal writings of Washington, Jefferson, Adams and the other framers of the Declaration and Constitution, and in the wording of these two documents themselves) .



Jefferson wasn't a Christian in the traditional sense. He believed in stripping away most of the dogma and just follow Jesus' words.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

Also, they believed strongly in the separation of church and state due to the problems that arose in england.



You make it sound like Jefferson wasn't a Christian, and as if he didn't strongly advocate Christian principles in the government he helped found.

But his deeply held Christian principles are clear in his writings. And the language he used in the Declaration of Independence, most of all, expresses an unmistakeable Christian framework on which American Democracy was based from its inception:

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from the Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776:

" We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, and deemed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights...



There are at least three other references to God and the Bible in this founding document, that Jefferson himself wrote.



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r3x29yz4a said:

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W B said:

And further: not being Christians themselves, these godless liberals try to wipe the essential Christian foundations from our schools and government, and even to erase them from our history, through distorted revisionism.



distorted revisionism? i'm not even sure what you're blathering on about here.
The fact is government is supposed to be separate from religion. A government official can go to church and pray as he likes but he can't put that religion into laws or any official actions.



I already answered this misconception in an earlier post:

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Wonder Boy said:

The role of Christianity as an essential element in American Democracy is clear in the writings of the founding fathers.

The only fear of our founding fathers was that one form of Christianity would possibly rise to dominate how Christianity was practiced in the United States, as the Roman Catholic church had dominated Europe. They valued Christianity as an essential element in democracy, and in education, as is reflected in these quotes:

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Religion is the only solid basis of good morals; therefore education should teach the precepts of religion, and the duties of man toward God.
Gouverneur Morris, signer of the Constitution.
from The Life of Gouverneur Morris by Jared Sparks, vol 3, p 483



There was a belief by the founding fathers that previous attempts at democracy had inevitably failed because of the absence of Biblical principles in their foundation, as in the Greek and Roman empires.
Their belief was that without Christian teaching and principles, democracy could only descend into chaos and self-destruction. That only the Bible could make democracy in the United States turn out differently:


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Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.
James Madison
from The Federalist on the New Constitution, p 53



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Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There was never a Democracy that did not commit suicide.
John Adams,
from Works, John Adams, vol 6, p 484, from a letter by Adams.



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All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, opression, slavery, and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible.
Noah Webster.
from The History of the United States, by Webster, p 309



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The only true basis of all government [is] the laws of God and nature. For government is an ordinance of Heaven, designed by the all-benevolent Creator.
Samuel Adams
from Writings, vol 1 p 269



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The propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained... It is impossible to rightly govern without God and the Bible.
George Washington
from A Compilation of the Messages and Papers of the Presidents, vol 1, pp52-53



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The law dictated by God Himself is, of course, superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries and at all times. No human laws are of any validity if contrary to this.
Alexander Hamilton
from The Papers of Alexander Hamilton by Harold C. Syret, vol 1, p 87



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It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Patrick Henry
from God's Providence in American History, by Steve Dawson, p 1



The concept "separation of Church and State" is in no U.S. document of government. It is a creation in the 20th century, from a phrase Jefferson wrote in a personal letter.

It is NOT in any of Jefferson's books. But technically, it is in one of his writings. It is one phrase by Jefferson, not something he ever repeated or strenuously argued for.

But in any case, the role of Christianity in forming the principles of American democracy is clear.
And equally clear, the desire of its creators that Christian principles would continue to be an enduring part of that democracy, as long as American democracy continues to exist.

Again, I consider Christian concepts to be vastly different from those of Islam.

The ideas of a personal God (-vs- an unknowable God in Islam), of free will (-vs- a more fatalist mindset of Islam), and other ideas of human rights and dignity. That arguably have largely not reached the Islamic world even 200 years after the birth of democracy in the U.S. and Europe.



The founders of U.S. democracy openly advocated that Biblical/Christian principles have an essential role in American government and education.

Yet you assert that Christians are to check their beliefs at the door, and cannot advocate laws and education in accordance with their beliefs, teach in schools longheld practices that continue that Biblical tradition, or even give public mention to the tenets of their Christian faith, or that's "violation of the separation of Church and State".

Did you know that humanism has been found by a Supreme court ruling to be a religious belief?
That atheism has as well?

Yet these are freely advocated in our schools, court buildings and government.
As are abortion, gay rights, etc.

Can you imagine the Left's outrage, if Christians similarly demanded that these liberal belief systems (which I've argued in multiple prior topics are just as much faith-based belief systems as Christianity) be weeded out with a similar "wall of separation" from U.S. education and government buildings as is demanded for the Bible and Christianity ?

The current system is an unlevel discourse, where liberal ideas are openly advocated, and Judao-Christian ideas are unfairly excluded from the public dialogue in our schools, universities and other public arenas.

Liberals have, over the last 40 years set up a stacked deck, where their ideas are heard, and the ideas of those who disagree are largely marginalized from the public education system and courts.

In complete opposition to the essential role our nation's founders intended Christianity to play.



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r3x29yz4a said:

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W B said:
I think liberals as a whole have a deep contempt for Christianity. There are Democrats who are Catholic or Protestant, but I think liberal leadership is content to use these people and cultivate their votes.
But the liberal party's core agenda is opposite what these Catholics and Protestants who vote for them value.


Catholics and Protestants hate worker's rights and government responsibility? They hate the economy of Clinton, the environment that Gore seeks to protect.

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They are basically just fodder to be used and cast aside, by the secularist liberal core of their party. Much like the blacks and Jews who vote so loyally for the Democrats, but get little if anything in return for it, beyond empty rhetoric that they're being victimized by alleged racism of the Republicans.



wow. You're fucking nuts, aren't you? I mean there's crazy, then there's you.



Your words are ambiguous, but I can guess what you're falsely implying.

As is your tendency, you imply things you know to be false.

First off, I've defended Israel and criticized anti-Semitism many times in my posts on RKMB. You can't falsely paint me as an anti-semite.

I've also said in prior posts that while there are sub-groups, WITHIN the black community I disagree with politically ( as represented by charlatans and fearmongers like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson), I'm not racist against blacks either.

I'm simply saying that as demographic groups, blacks and Jews are a loyal demographic base that the Democrats can rely on. And that is odd, since blacks and Jews are largely taken for granted by the Democrat leadership, and have little to show for their loyal support of Democrats at the polls.

Both Republican and Democrat pollsters would agree with me, as would the demographic breakdown of the last 20 years of Presidential elections.

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r3x29yz4a said:

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W B said:
Fearmongering that keeps them voting loyally for Democrats.




Fearmongering like Bush using 9/11 to justify every little thing [?]
Or fearmongering like using 9/11 and Terror Alerts during election cycles like Bush did in 2004?



That is wild conspiracy theory on your part, to spitefully discredit a president you don't like, with absolutely nothing to back it up.

If I were to say that Clinton started wars in Kosovo, Bosnia, Haiti and Somalia just to elevate popular support for himself, and distract from the many political scandals of his presidency, that would be the equivalent. But I don't believe that Clinton did this, or that there is evidence for this, beyond wild speculation.

And neither is there support for the absolute crap that you allege about Bush.

  • from Do Racists have lower IQ's...

    Liberals who bemoan discrimination, intolerance, restraint of Constitutional freedoms, and promotion of hatred toward various abberant minorities, have absolutely no problem with discriminating against, being intolerant of, restricting Constitutional freedoms of, and directing hate-filled scapegoat rhetoric against conservatives.

    EXACTLY what they accuse Republicans/conservatives of doing, is EXACTLY what liberals/Democrats do themselves, to those who oppose their beliefs.