RKMBs Forums .::Important::. Politics and Current Events Bin Ladens home ablaze

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Originally posted by Fanboy:
Cnn is reporting and showing pictures of Bin Ladens home burning n Afganastan.

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While I'm certain the following will, doubtless, elicit "tsk-tsk"ings from the more genteel and refined out there:

Good.

And I'm only sorry I wasn't the one to pop open the first gasoline can.

These were acts of barbarism -- the destruction of the World Trade Center; the cowardly, inhuman shanghaiing of innocent commercial plane passengers onto fatal kamikazee attacks; the attempted destruction of the Pentagon -- unparalleled in our nation's history. The projected death total is already being guestimated as far surpassing even that of Pearl Harbor's, back just prior to our involvement in WWII.

I keep reading, on various message boards, that "we don't absolutely *know* who was responsible for this."

Today was the anniversary of the Camp David peace accords. bin Laden publicly *announced*, three weeks ago, that he would launch "unprecedented attacks upon American interests." One of bin Laden's accomplices was slated to be sentenced for a previous attempt on the World Trade Center tomorrow morning.

I don't have to be the Batman -- or even Angela Lansbury -- to know that all of these taken *together* spell "leading suspect."

Let justice be done.

IF Bin Ladin gave the orders then he should be tried as a war criminal and sentenced accordingly. Justice must be seen to be done. Other wise we simply become right because we are bigger and stronger.

If northern Ireland has taught us anything it is that, tit for tat killings only prolong the angony as each side seeks revenge for the wrongs it has suffered. Bomb and kill Bin Ladin and another one will rise to take his place.

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Originally posted by FarawayLad:
Yes. Let justice be done. But is a big nation bombming a small one justice.[/B]

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If said "small nation" knowingly provides a secure base of operations for proven terrorists to do... *this* to the "big nation," you mean...?

Hell, YES. "Justice" writ LARGE.

I'm nowhere *near* impressed by the "big nation/little nation" argument, I'm afraid; nor the "whack the guy, but not the nation which knowingly *harbors* him" one, either.

That "little nation" -- or, more precisely, the cockroach they've been providing with shelter and succor -- is (now virtually a certainty) responsible for the single bloodiest act of terrorism *ever* on American soil.

Don't waste my time attempting to tap into my precious store of pity on *their* behalf.

That's pretty being taken up by our *own* dead, dying, maimed and orphaned.

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[B]Bomb and kill Bin Ladin and another one will rise to take his place.

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Fine by me.

I enjoy target practice.

Extremist acts. When the U.S. demanded Bin Ladin after the original WTC bombing and later attacks on the bombings of the two U.S. embassies, Afghanistan refused to hand him over. Now the attack on the Cole, and this. Estimated 12000 dead (not going to be known for days could be much less of higher). That's worse than Pearl Harbor, there were only 68 civilians there. Add that to the other death tolls in earlier attacks. Had Afghanistan handed him over earlier catastrophe could have been prevented.

Now, in an effort to protect their asses, they deny doing. It's a chicken game. They can play terrorism, attacking with stealth and subterfuge, but when it comes to the heavy guns and all out war, they will back off, realizing how inferior they are. Imagine an Ultimatum of handing over Bin Ladin and some leaders ot the Tel Abin. If they don't: War.

First strike, massive bombing, second strike, pinpoint bombing, third strike, apache helocopters.

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Originally posted by kidflash212:
[QB]bin laden (as he is not human I will not capitalize his name) [QB]

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Agreed.

I can't believe Palestinians were celebrating. They'll now have zero support from the US. Government policies will now be polarised.

I feel sorry for Arab-Americans. I hope they don't catch the brunt of this.

The TV host said, "Against who?"

Its a good point. Afghanistan has denied responsibility. These aren't the nice old days when Prussians, Austro-Hungarians and Ottomans engaged in diplomatic niceties such as declaring war.

Maybe the US will now abandon the silly NMD, and concentrate on important things, like sorting out the Middle East. Foreign policy - what is happening in the rest of the world - will have a renewed significance for Americans now.

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Originally posted by Soy un perdedor:
Very interesting Dave. In the light of Clinton's peace efforts and U.S. attempts at maintaining the peace process and denouncing Isreali actions as recent as last week (even though we supply them with weapons and arms), this display of the Fanatacism is similar to the suicide bombers who attack restaurants and crowds and other buildings. Bin Ladin make be linked, but the Palistinian Liberation group so far has claimed responsibility. A matter of fund perhaps. If this is two forces intertwined, the U.S. must procede delicately. Attacking Afghanistan is one thing, making an attack against Palistine requires knowing who you have as allies and being prepared to accept the brunt of what could happen. One must predict enemies and allies when the lines are drawn.

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I automatically disbelieve anybody who actually takes credit for something like this. Usually the people who actually commit an act like this are too afraid to actually take credit for it. Cowards...

This is especially significant since Bush said in his speech that he makes no distinction between thoise who have committed the acts and those who harbour the perpetrators.

WTC was the target of an original attack and he has attacked U.S. interests before. To cripple global economics would not suit Most Mid-East nations. That would affect even Iraq. They are trying to win some favor (not allies, but just a favorable attitude) with other countries in Europe and Asia. This attack with do significant harm to them. Fanaticism is not a goal. It was Bin Laden who declared a Jihad against the U.S.

ALTHOUGH... the lack of long distance missiles and the "beach ball" (the Iraqi name for a nuclear missile, according to an article in Maxim magazine), perhaps Iraqi pilots were sent to the U.S. to make a strike on U.S. soil using "missiles" in the form of high fuel kamikaze planes?

Taliban Rulers Say bin Laden Is Innocent

By Tahir Ikram
Reuters

KABUL, Afghanistan (Sept. 11) - Afghanistan's Taliban rulers moved quickly to deny that Saudi militant Osama bin Laden, whom they are sheltering, was capable of causing Tuesday's colossal terror assault on the United States.

Taliban supreme leader Mullah Mohammad Omar and other officials of his hard-line Islamic movement condemned the attacks as terrorist acts and said they were too complex to have been organized by bin Laden from Afghanistan.

A statement by Omar, cited by CNN late Tuesday night, said he believed bin Laden could not have been responsible for such a complex act of terrorism.

He also said that Afghanistan, being a poor country, could also in no way be involved in such a complicated act.

''What happened in the United States was not a job of ordinary people,'' Taliban spokesman Abdul Hai Mutmaen told Reuters earlier from the southern city of Kandahar.

''It could have been the work of governments. Osama bin Laden cannot do this work, neither us,'' he said.

U.S. authorities have not accused anyone of orchestrating the attacks, but commentators immediately drew parallels with bin Laden's alleged role in the almost simultaneous destruction of two U.S. embassies in East Africa in 1998 that killed more than 200 people.

The Taliban appeared anxious to prevent a repeat of the U.S. revenge that followed those 1998 attacks. The United States hit suspected bin Laden bases in eastern Afghanistan with cruise missiles soon after the embassy bombings.

''We are not supporting terrorism. Osama does not have the capability. We condemn this,'' Mutmaen said.

''This could have been the act of either internal enemies of the United States or its major rivals. Osama cannot do this work,'' he added.

Two hijacked planes crashed into the giant towers of the World Trade Center in New York and a third plane struck the Pentagon outside Washington, plunging the United States into unprecedented chaos and panic.

Afghan Foreign Minister Wakil Ahmed Muttawakil told a hastily convened news conference in Kabul that he condemned the attack and there could be no reason for U.S. reprisal attacks on Afghanistan. He said there had been no contact with the United States.

ISLAMABAD NEWS CONFERENCE

''Our policy was very clear, even from the beginning. We have criticized and will now criticize terrorism in all its forms,'' Muttawakil said.

He said bin Laden remained under the Taliban restrictions on contacts outside the country and said there had been no formal accusation against the Saudi militant.

''Even the previous incidents it has not been proven that Arabs are behind such incidents and even now it has not been proven that Arabs are behind them,'' he said.

The Taliban ambassador in neighboring Pakistan, Mullah Abdul Salam Zaeef, also condemned the ''terrorist acts'' and said those found responsible after a thorough investigation should be brought to justice.

Asked at a news conference in Islamabad if the Taliban feared a U.S. attack on Afghanistan, Zaeef said: ''We do not expect it from America to take such a speedy and tragic action without completing the investigation.''

He told a news conference that bin Laden, now living in Afghanistan as the Taliban's ''guest,'' had had no link with the outside world since the Taliban withdrew communication facilities from him about three years ago.

''We do not allow Osama bin Laden to use the soil of Afghanistan against any other country,'' he said. ''He has no facility to carry out such activity,'' Zaeef said.

The Taliban has refused to hand over bin Laden, who is accused of numerous crimes against the United States and carries a $5 million price on his head, despite heavy international pressure.

The United Nations has imposed two sets of sanctions against the Taliban in an effort to force his handover. But the Taliban has repeatedly ruled out ejecting the man they term their guest.

The Taliban position is that Washington must provide proof for a court trial in Afghanistan or in some other Muslim country before a religious committee including representatives of Islamic countries such as Saudi Arabia.

The Taliban has been dismissive of U.S. claims, maintaining that bin Laden is not allowed to engage in political activities and a person living in a country with the most primitive of infrastructure could never direct the worldwide net of agents needed for such devastating attacks.

It wouldn't surprise me now if bin Laden was handed over.

One senior official said the probability that bin Laden is behind the deadly assaults is in "the high 90s," while another U.S. official said investigators gathered evidence "strongly suggesting" that bin Laden's organization, al Qaeda, was involved.

The evidence pointing to bin Laden was gathered following the attacks in a joint effort by the CIA and the FBI, with information from both domestic and overseas sources, a senior official said.

"It is more than just the analytical surmise that it would take an organization with incredible command and control capability, which bin Laden's has, to stage an attack like this," one U.S. official said. "There is other information that has been obtained after the attack against the World Trade Center pointing in the direction of bin Laden."

Unprecedented in scope and sophistication, the coordinated assault on the world's financial and political capitals caught the United States completely off guard – despite a massive intelligence and law-enforcement network devoted to detecting and thwarting such attacks. Focused largely on guarding against bombing threats to overseas targets, U.S. authorities concede they were ill-prepared for hijacked jetliners purposely crashed on American soil.

Sen. Orrin G. Hatch (R-Utah), a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee, said he was told in a briefing that electronic intercepts today showed "representatives affiliated with Osama bin Laden over the airwaves reporting that they had hit two targets." A senior intelligence official, who said bin Laden is a prime suspect, would not confirm Hatch's report of intercepts.

A U.S. official said efforts are being made to carefully scrutinize the passenger manifests on four airliners hijacked today in Boston, Newark, N.J., and Washington's Dulles International Airport. The official said that analysts had concluded that after an initial review, "there may be information linking some of the names on the manifests to bin Laden's organization."

Several U.S. officials said there was no warning in the days before the attacks that a major operation was in the works. "In terms of specific warning that something of this nature was to occur, no," one official said.

But journalists with access to bin Laden said he and his followers openly boasted in recent months that they were preparing for attacks against the United States in retaliation for American support of Israel. Abdel-Bari Atwan, editor of the the al Quds al Arabi newspaper in London, said he was convinced that Islamic fundamentalists aligned with bin Laden were "almost certainly" behind the attacks.

"Personally, we received information that he planned very, very big attacks against American interests," Atwan said, referring to conversations about three weeks ago. "We received several warnings like this. We did not take it so seriously, preferring to see what would happen before reporting it."

Bin Laden, 44, an extremist Islamic militant from a wealthy Saudi Arabian family, has been defying U.S. efforts to capture or kill him for years. Since 1996, he has been living under protection of the fundamentalist Taliban regime in Afghanistan in a remote mountain redoubt. He has previously been linked to terrorists who attempted to destroy the World Trade Center in 1993. He has also been indicted for the deadly 1998 bombings of the U.S. embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania and Nairobi, Kenya and was linked to last October's attack on the USS Cole in Aden, Yemen, which killed 17 American servicemen.

A videotape has been circulating in the Middle East for several months in which bin Laden recites a victory poem about the Cole bombing, and then issues a call to arms: "To all the Mujah: Your brothers in Palestine are waiting for you; it's time to penetrate America and Israel and hit them where it hurts the most."

The assaults reignited a long-running debate over how far the United States should go in its pursuit of terrorists, who are often protected by sympathetic governments in countries such as Afghanistan.

President Bush, addressing the nation last night, said the United States will make "no distinction" between terrorists and countries who harbor them in its hunt for those responsible in the attacks.

In Kabul, the Taliban's foreign minister swiftly condemned today's attacks and rejected suggestions that bin Laden could be behind them.

"We have tried our best in the past and we are willing in the future to assure the United States in any kind of way we can that Osama is not involved in these kinds of activities," Wakil Ahmed Muttawakil told reporters.

Some U.S. officials and terrorism experts noted that other suspects were possible, most notably Hezbollah, an Iranian-backed guerrilla force based in southern Lebanon that is suspected of involvement in the 1983 bombings against the U.S. embassy and the U.S. Marine barracks in Lebanon. Bremer noted that Hezbollah hijacked a TWA airliner in 1986 with the intention of crashing it into buildings in Tel Aviv.

The leaders of several other potential suspects denied involvement with the assaults. The spiritual leader of the Islamic Resistance Movement, or Hamas, denied any connection with the attacks saying "our battle is on the Palestinian land." Two other radical Palestinian groups, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, said they had nothing to do with the tragedies.

Instead, U.S. officials said, most signs quickly pointed to bin Laden. In addition to being a suspect in the Cole bombing, bin Laden was indicted in New York in December 2000 in connection with the bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania on Aug. 7, 1998, in which 224 people were killed and more than 4,000 injured.

Today's attacks came one day before a bin Laden associate was scheduled to be sentenced in New York for his role in the Tanzanian bombing. The federal courthouse is in lower Manhattan, near the World Trade Center.

The embassy bombings, like today's attacks in New York and Washington, were well-coordinated, occurring minutes apart. Bin Laden is on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted List, and the U.S. government has offered a $5 million reward for information leading to his capture and conviction.

Most terrorism experts said that only bin Laden and al Qaeda have the resources and organization to pull off coordinated attacks like those mounted against the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

"He's declared war on the United States," said L. Paul Bremer III, chairman of the National Commission on Terrorism and former ambassador at large for counterterrorism in Reagan administration. "He is suspected of being involved in a number of attacks on the U.S., going all the way back to Mogadishu [in 1993]. . . . At a certain point, somebody's public statements deserve to be taken at face value. Bin Laden means what he says – he's declared war with the United States."

Ruth Wedgwood, a Yale University law professor and terrorism expert, said today's attacks are "not just an act of war, these are war crimes. No one has declared martial law, but it is a state of emergency. . . . We cannot stop until we stop this man. He knows no limits."

In June, U.S. forces in the Persian Gulf region were put on the highest anti-terrorist alert, "Threatcon Delta," after Western intelligence agencies received what they called "credible" information of a possible attack by bin Laden operatives.

That threat coincided with an interview top bin Laden aides gave to a London-based, satellite television station, the Middle East Broadcasting Center.

Bakri Attrani, the reporter for the story, said in an interview with The Washington Post in July that he had met with bin Laden outside Kandahar, a rugged frontier town in southern Afghanistan that is the headquarters of the spiritual leaders of the Taliban, Afghanistan's ruling Islamic militia. Attrani recounted that bin Laden's aides "said there would be attacks against American and Israeli facilities within the next several weeks."

No attack occurred in that time frame, but the threat of one forced a Marine Corps contingent in Jordan to cut short its training session and return to its ships, while the U.S. 5th Fleet steamed out of port in Bahrain.

In February 1998, bin Laden issued a fatwa, or religious order, calling for attacks on Americans. A translated text of the document, issued by a newly formed coalition called the International Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders, identified bin Laden as a sheikh.

U.S. officials believe this order culminated in the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania. They are also now trying to determine whether bin Laden has a definitive relationship to those responsible for bombing the Cole.

In the recent video, bin Laden comes close to admitting a role in the Cole bombing, without ever actually mentioning it. He recites a poem that includes the line "And in Aden, they charged and destroyed a destroyer that fearsome people fear, one that evokes horror when it docks and when it sails," according to numerous news reports of the tape.

The poem recital is followed by images of the bombed ship. Rebels filmed at a training camp at one point in the video chant, "We thank Allah for granting us victory the day we destroyed the Cole in the sea."

According to the U.S. State Department's April 2001 report on global terrorism, bin Laden uses a $300 million family inheritance to finance his terrorist organization, al Qaeda, which has "several hundred to several thousand members" and "a worldwide reach." Some analysts claim his group has access to about $3 billion in funding, although others have said such estimates are overstated.

According to the report, bin Laden founded the group in the late 1980s to bring together Arabs who had fought against the Soviet Afghanistan and now works to "overthrow regimes it deems non-Islamic" and expel Westerners and non-Muslims from Muslim countries." In February 1998, the group issued a statement "saying it was the duty of all Muslims to kill U.S. citizens civilian or military and their allies everywhere," the State Department report said.

Correspondents John Ward Anderson in Istanbul and T.R. Reid in London and staff writers Nora Boustany, Walter Pincus, George Lardner, Jr. and Bob Woodward in Washington contributed to this report.

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I was watching tv and came up here around 10pm CST and before I came up, they said that it was Bin Laden that did this. Now the trick comes in finding the slime ball...

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Well if you take three things into account. One numerous times today, this was mentioned as an act of war. Bush said there would be no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them,'' Those sentiments mean, any nation who houses these people will be subject to the same conditions.

Afghanistan has housed and protected Bin Laden despite the U.S's demands for him following Cole, the WTC bombing, and the Embassy's. That allowed this. Now they deny this and demand proof. There is a phrase called paying in spades. Expect an ultimatum and a declaration of War.

Regardless, I am predicting massive airstrikes on Afghanistani targets within the week.

I agree with the political sentiment. "Lies, Lies, lies."

I know that the same could have been happened later, after the dissolution of USSR. But yet, with a victory in Afganistan USSR dissolution could have been different.

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: The Eurostar ]

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Originally posted by Soy un perdedor:
According to American law, Afghanistan is harboring a serial killer/terrorist/ known felon. Such is the same as being an accomplice to his recent actions.

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But is it the same under Afgahanstan Law or International law? Or are you saying that American Law is the only law the world shoud follow.

What, exactly, those are in this situation are unknown to me. But I guess we'll be finding out soon enough.

"THE SCALE of the attacks and the loss of life — mostly in New York City’s World Trade Center, but also near Pittsburgh and Washington — ensured that “no option has been taken off the table,” senior U.S. officials said. Asked if that included nuclear weapons, one senior official said: “I said no option is out of the question. That’s precisely what I mean.”

ARRAY OF MILITARY OPTIONS

As President Bush weighs options, the difficulty of pinpointing bin Laden — if in fact the United States decides he is responsible — presents a dilemma. Among the options under active consideration:
Major retaliatory strikes: The United States could strike at Afghanistan with missile strikes — possibly even tactical nuclear weapons — to demonstrate its anger and the grave consequences of such an attack on U.S. soil.
Military invasion: The president could declare war on Afghanistan and order a buildup of forces similar to that which preceded the Gulf War in 1990. Such a move, however, would require the acquiescence of a neighboring state — either Pakistan or one of the former Soviet Central Asian nations.
Manhunt: The Army’s Delta Force or other assets could be inserted into Afghanistan to hunt down bin Laden.
Proxy action: The United States could exert extreme diplomatic pressure on Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, two states that have supported the Afghan Taliban in the past, to bring bin Laden to justice.

I fear for the future and what is to come....

[ 09-12-2001: Message edited by: Citizen El ]

says this...

BRUSSELS, Belgium (CNN) -- NATO members are discussing a draft document that would give military or logistical support to the U.S..

For the first time in the military alliance's history, the 19 member states are considering sending support of any kind to the U.S. in response to Tuesday's attacks on the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington.

The draft proposal would look to invoke NATO's self-defence charter, diplomatic sources and State Department officials told CNN.

The proposal, put forward by NATO Secretary-General George Robertson, would call for support of Article Five of the alliance's charter, which is the basic reason for NATO's existence.

It spells out the requirement that if one of NATO's members is attacked, all its allies would defend it.

One official put it this way: "A hit for one is a hit for all."

It is the first time that an attack has taken place on the soil of a NATO member during its 50-plus years of existence.

Previous NATO activity has been carried out on non-member territories, such as in the Balkans.

NATO would require the U.S. to give it details of who had been responsible for the attack before any retaliatory action was offered.

The U.S. would have to go back to NATO to ask for specific kinds of support, but officials say invoking Article Five would provide on an "expedited basis" use of air space by the allies and make other kinds of assistance available.

European Union foreign ministers joined NATO's secretary-general in issuing a draft statement prepared for a unique session on Wednesday, which expressed "the most profound disgust at the terrorist attacks."

Robertson said: "We stand together. We are two organisations with one voice, one strong voice, that we will not stand for this terrorism."

EU Commission President Romano Prodi said: "In the darkest days of European history America stood close by us and today we stand close by America."

Security had been visibly tightened at both EU and NATO headquarters in Brussels.

Afghanistan has released a press statement pleading with the US not to take retaliatory measures against its country, but saying that bin Laden has had nothing to do with it.

The US government is asking for the explosions to be measured in kilotonnes - ie. are the jets to be defined as "weapons of mass destruction" ?

I hadn't seriously thought about the use of tactical nukes before I read that. If the jets are weapons of mass destruction, this provides an excuse for the US to use nukes in Afghanistan.

Very scary.