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the ole darwin vs. god philosophies. did we evolve from some other life form, perhaps monkeys (tee hee!)? are we the result of years of selection and genetic processessing, the survival of the fittest? or were we created (even if not in this exact form) by a higher power? perhaps, even in that power's image?
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I'm in the "humans evolved" group. How can you discount dinosaurs (who were here before us) and all them bones, insects trapped in amber, fossiles of fish and other animals found in the ocean and else where?
Not to mention the skulls of various humanoid beings, which are clearly not of the ape family (y'all know the famous "Lucy" remains, yes?). I just don't see how we could've "appeared" out of nowhere.
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We evolved. I have the proof. Adam told me. Creationist read too much of the old book.
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There are no Creationist theories that stack up.
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couldn't both theories be one in the same? i believe thats the new "creationist" theory.
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For an answer, read the upcoming "War of Light and Darkness" saga in the Hero Headquarter V 2.0 forum.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
couldn't both theories be one in the same?
i believe thats the new "creationist" theory.
If so, then God looks kinda just about as much like a monkey as a people. 'Cause back in the day people looked a helluva lot like monkeys.
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Actually that's not bad! The world seems like it's run by a monkey sometimes...
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I think both are true. God molding Adam into a likeness of his own. Taking the dirt (where extinct lifeforms are preserved) and forming this being that resembled himself (like any statue, it was a little slopping and ape-like at first, but as time went on and God shaped the dirt it started to resemble homo sapians more and more).
Now noramlly I do not talk in this abstract manner or so 'airy' but this is as close as I can get to expressing the harmony between my faith and my knowledge in science.
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Uh oh. Faith. I didn't think that would have come up. That makes it touchy. Now I feel like I need to watch my words. People get so defensive sometimes.... you wouldn't get defensive, would you?
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Nah I won't get defensive. I have an uber-Christian friend that last I talked to her she told me I was going to Hell for believing (its really a fact guys, they run experiments all the time) in evolution. Whoaho big Christian move there girlfriend.
Like I said, I believe science and theology co-exist. Heck, you can see things like the periodic table or the bases in neucleotide sequences as proof that God is some sort of creator that used a set of logic that we as humans can learn and understand.
I'm reminded of all the discoveries in past few centuries when naturalist were using science to explain God's mysteries. Slowly related animals were grouped together (using binomial nomenclature) and that process led to the evolutionary trees that explained how fish and birds and mammels evolved. Darwin himself was trained in the English Church.
Too bad some people can't see the marvel of God's work in the skull of a Parasarlopus or the dynamics of a Velociraptor's foot. LOL I love the scene from O Brother, where art thou? when the Klan leader spoke about their foes. "Looking to us for protection from...all those smart-ass folk that say we come descended from monkeys."
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Really? Ok, so I have a few questions, then.
How does your (collectively) acceptance and study of christianity in relation to science and discovery NOT mean that the faith itself is floundering? Not to say that any fewer people believe in it, but the basis of christianity is melting. The very actions of the church in the past and present are hypocrytical and ass backwards. For years and years and centuries the church held a solid stance against the scientific discoveries of the times. Then, again and again, the church was proven in their errors. And then changed. (ie- heliocentricism. witches. evolution. etc.)
One way I've heard of explaining it is that the church itself is 'evolving.' That the scriptures hold the truth and we are only just unlocking some of the secrets over time. But couldn't that also be explained by generalizations and ambiguities? I mean, it says the end is near, AND that time is a blink of an eye and an eternity to God (who supposably 'said' the end was near). Much is told in parable. The abstract will be interpreted different ways by different people in different times. I have heard the argument, 'but how could PEOPLE write something that stands throughout so much time and be interpretable in all of them?' Well, there was also that one guy (his name escapes me for now) who made all those predictions and stuff... very ambiguous and easilly interpretable for many situations. Was he a profit? Was he good with words? Is the church a miracle throughout time? Is it a cult gone out of hand?
And, what I wanted to kinda say before:
So you think that people are on their way to evolving more and more in the likeness of god? That seems a bit self glorifying to me. Like 'I'm the closest thing there is in the history of time to being like God!' or something.
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Well I'm not accountable for what religious leaders think of scientific discoverys. I mean, my own Church condemned Galalio (he has since been reinstated...centuries after his death...) My opinions are of my own, and nothing 'offically approved by the Church'. Not that I am alone in thinking this way -- many of my friends see both sides and accept both sides.
So basically, I think that it was stupid for the Church to ignore these discoveries. Did they do it to maintain power? Sure. Did they see it as a threat? You beat. Do I? No, and that's what seperates me from fiftenth century bishop or pope.
As far as interpreting the Bible, I've taken classes on it. The teacher is great. Basically, he gives arguements for both the atheist and devote student and leaves it at that. No real bias. I understand that stuff has happened to the wording and everything. You have to real it objectivly.
As far as glorifing, some people may have seen themselves as doing just that, but I always saw it as trying to unravel the mysteries of God. To each his own, I suppose.
Hope that answered your questions, Uschi. I was a little confused on the wording. Ask something else and I'll try and post tonight...I mean, this morning...
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Yeah, those are mostly the conclusions I'd reached. But hell. It just pisses me off. Not the faith, but the Christians. There is ONE true Christian I know. The rest are assheads or have their own agenda. And all those fucking priests... talk about agendas! I dunno. I was just wondering if there was a fresh opinion. I guess I just turned it into a rant, not really questions. Sorry. ![[gulp!]](gulp.gif)
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I see where you are coming from. I have met many crappy priest in my day. But the good ones are far more frequent and make up for it. Sadly, they are not the ones in the media and anyways they are all old and probably will die in five years ![[sad]](images/icons/frown.gif) .
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Christians seem to be a plague on the Earth, you know? Even since day one. Back in Rome, what did they do? Spread propoganda and knocked on doors and spread papers... they chose to continue living in the Roman cities and tell everyone how it was going down, how God hated Rome, how it was the most wretched empire and would be destroyed in the wrath of God...
And nowadays there's the born-agains, pushing all up in everyone's busness and screaming to love the Lord and NOT walking as they should. My mom is a Catholic Nazi, if you'll excuse the term. She is avadly militant about Jesus. Can't even talk to her about other religions without her saying, "No. Because the bible says that's not true." "Mom, they don't BELIEVE in the bible." "But the Bible is the word of God and he speaks truth and wisdom and his word is infalliable blah blah blah..." "But they don't believe in the bible. Besides, it's not really the word of god, PEOPLE wrote it." "but it says if someone changes the words..."
etc.
But do they behave the way they tell US to behave? No. Maybe instead of going to Africa to force conversion upon people and in exchange build a bridge or well, why not dig the damn well, build the damn bridge and when you leave, leave some bibles for them. Then people see what a decent person you are. 'Maybe there's something to this religion, makes such good people...'
And then the shit where buddhists and stuff will be in hell. From what I've learned (although I admit it isn't too damn much) they have the same 'golden rule' type things going down. The only thing is no god, right? Why should a person be denied "eternal bliss" because they don't dig some dead fellow?
Thats another thing. Why would this God only show in the middle east? Surely he isn't so stupid as to think hitting one place a few times (depending on beliefs, one two or three) will cut it for the whole world? Does god hate asians? Africans? Indians? Eskimos? Mexicans? WTF?
I dunno. I'm ranting again, but it's just so damn FRUSTRATING.
Priests, though. Yeah, I've met two good ones. And seven bad ones. Not likeing them odds.
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I, personally, am on the "evolution" side of the argument, but I've heard arguments(and good one's), that tie the two sides together pretty well. "Inherit the Wind", for example.
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It does seem like there are more phony "Christians" than real (good) ones. Several Protestan ministers I knew struck me as more intolerant than many people who don't even go to church! That doesn't mean Christianity is bad though, it just means that plenty of "Christians" are phony hipocrits. I bet the same is true of Muslims, Buddists, and even atheists.
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And for the original question, I think we evolved, and that was God's doing.
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Hey Uschi,
Show your mom the passage in one of the Gospels where Jesus said that everyone from all sorts of religions will be saved, not just the Jews or what later would become the Christians. That ought to shut her trap. People need to realize saying you are a Christian is NOT a 'get out of hell free' card. I can't remember the actually passage, but I'll try and dig it up for you.
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That would be cool! Have some ammo of my OWN.
Oh, and I guess I never answered the question myself. Evolution is nothing to believe in, it's proven fact. However, I can't see any reason other than 'damn coincidental' that all this stuff started in the first place. Evolution can only happen if the variables are alreaddy in existance, so something made it work, IMO. So I suppose I'm for the "both" argument.
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Okay, here are some passages you can use.
Taken from the New International Verison of the Old and New Testaments
Matthew 7:1-5
"Do not judge, or you will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."
Similar passage in Luke:37-42
Matthew 8:10-12
(In the passages before, a Roman pagan had asked Jesus to save his servant, and Jesus was impressed by his humbleness)
When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom of heaven will be thrown outside, into the darkenss, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Similar passage in Luke 7:1-10
Luke 10:25-37
Kind of long, but to paraphrase, some know-it-all asks Jesus how to get to heaven. Jesus asks what is written in the Law and the man says, among other things, to love your neighbor. So Jesus then goes into a parable about some guy that was robbed and the only man that helped was a Samaritan, while a priest and Levite passed him by. The Samaritan was a neighbor to the man.
Anyways, there are tons of passages about the high-and-mighty getting just what they deserve, so really just flip thorugh and find one to show your mom.
And you're right, evolution is a proven FACT. There have been TONS of experiments. There was one where minnows were seperated by a waterfall and could not breed back together again after being reunited (the ability to produce viable, fertile offspring is one definition of a species). Heck, scienst study E. coli, found in the human GI tract, and they are constantly evolving! That's why were are having trouble with all the anti-bacterial stuff in the market right now -- the bacteria are growing resistant.
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Human evolution is still mostly theory, as is nearly all science. It changes constantly, so it's hard to really say anything is a "proven fact".
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Hey Animalman what is this 'Inherit the Wind' you spoke of? Sounds interesting.
As far as proven fact, yeah, you're right to say nothing can be proven in science. I'll rephrase and say evolution has a very strong case. Even Darwin was off. He thought animals slowly evolved bit by bit, so an evolving species had intermediate forms. But there is not fossil evidence of this. Instead, it looks like species change very quickly in the beginging of their existance and then stay static for a long time.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kamphausen:
......did we evolve from some other life form, perhaps monkeys (tee hee!)?.......
How else to explain the fact that we always like to see 'em worked into them comic books.
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I'm firmly in the evolution camp. I see absolutely no evidence to support creationism. When you gewt right down to it, I'd say the Raelian's belief, that we are clones of spacemen (spacemonkeys?), makes more sense than the jewish/christian garden of eden scenario. The original man was made out of mud and woman from a rib? Just doesn't sound believable to me.
Cheers!
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quote:
Originally posted by Wingnut-EL:
Cheers!
Hioh! Let's all have another one!
Those Raelians (sp-whatever) are funny. They had their clone and all, but never tried to prove it. Just, 'Uh... we made a people clone. Like, believe us and stuff.' :) What a great little cult thing they have going there. Very entertaining. ...Reminds me of Heaven's Gate...
Koolaid?
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quote:
Originally posted by Harpy:
Matthew 8:10-12
(In the passages before, a Roman pagan had asked Jesus to save his servant, and Jesus was impressed by his humbleness)
When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. But the subjects of the kingdom of heaven will be thrown outside, into the darkenss, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Similar passage in Luke 7:1-10
Shouldn't that be, "But the subjects of the kingdom of Earth will be thrown outside..."? But, yeah. Good points. So Jesus is saying that to live in a christian manner is what he wants, not to have the christian title. However, what about the whole 'mustard seed' bit? That directly says faith gets you in. And 'the only way to god is through Jesus.' I swear I've heard that one. And what about the unbelievers being cast out? Again, I swear I've heard that one a bazillion times. Seems straightforward there...
quote:
And you're right, evolution is a proven FACT. There have been TONS of experiments. There was one where minnows were seperated by a waterfall and could not breed back together again after being reunited (the ability to produce viable, fertile offspring is one definition of a species). Heck, scienst study E. coli, found in the human GI tract, and they are constantly evolving! That's why were are having trouble with all the anti-bacterial stuff in the market right now -- the bacteria are growing resistant.
Here's a story.
There was this guy, a supporter of a different view of evolution. Back with Darwin, there was another theory about how, for example, giraffes got their long necks by stretching them out over their lives and eventually their kids started having longer necks. Totally bogus theory, I don't know how it survived so long. Anyhow, this guy was trying to prove the point. There were these two kinds of frogs, one that bred on land, the other in the water. Otherwise they were basically identical. The aquatic breeders had these little pads on the bottom of their feet to get a grip on the slippery rocks. So the guy took a bunch of the land breeders and affixed them in the water in hopes that they would evolve and gain the pads on their feet. So, nothing happened. One day one of his students came in and painted little dots on the bottom of all the little frog's feet. The guy was estatic! It had worked. So, with his proof, he published. But nobody could reproduce the results. He carrear was ruined and he fell into poverty. He was fired from his job and nobody wanted such a dumbass on their staff. Years later, one of his students came back to him and told him the pads were a joke. The guy was later found dead from hanging himself.
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I think you are talking about Jean Baptiste Lamarck. He had two big ideas. The first was use and disuse. Parts of the body used extensively to cope with the environment became larger (blacksmith's arm or giraffe's neck). The second was the inheritance of acquired characteristics. Hence, giraffes' necks would get longer.
However, this was all disporved when someone cut the tails off generations of mice and each new generation still had tails.
However, Lamarck was not a total loser. He did claim that evolution explains the fossil record and the diversity in life. And his theory reflected the growing trend that the planet is old. Also, he noted that adapting to the environment was the product of evolution.
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The guy that killed himself didn't come up with the theory, he just wanted to prove it.
You know that monk that supposidly discovered/proved genetics? With the pea plants and the square charts? He never actually did the work. He just thought about it and published SAYING he had done the experiments, and lucky for him he was right.
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quote:
Originally posted by Harpy:
Hey Animalman what is this 'Inherit the Wind' you spoke of? Sounds interesting.
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~UG97/inherit/intro.html
Inherit the Wind is a book based on the true story of the court case Tennessee v. John Thomas Scopes. In 1925, a science teacher was arrested for teaching his class the writings of Charles Darwin, as it was considered a blasphemous act against the Christian traditions of the school.
It's a great book, and I highly recommend reading it, or seeing the movie/play. It really does bring up a lot of interesting arguments and provide some excellent insight into the classic "evolution vs. creation" debate.
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Cool I knew about the 'Monkey Trial' but did not know of the play. Thanks A-man!
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I was created. As were we all.
Quote:
Uschi said:
The guy that killed himself didn't come up with the theory, he just wanted to prove it.
You know that monk that supposidly discovered/proved genetics? With the pea plants and the square charts? He never actually did the work. He just thought about it and published SAYING he had done the experiments, and lucky for him he was right.
His name was Gregor Mendel. And I'm not sure where you get your info from, but it's bullshit. He did the work, and after it was ignored by secularists for 34 years (cuz' he was a monk), Sutton carried it on based on Gregor's documented succes. Then, after Sutton, there was another guy who breeded fruit flies whilst hoping to achieve what they did, which complemented Mendel and Sutton's experiments with plants.
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Yeah, that's pretty much the way we were taught it in college.
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