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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43
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So...here goes...
PRO DEATH PENALTY ARGUMENTS
Practical: With the exceptions of horror films, criminals do not come back from the dead. It also saves room in the prisons.
Preventive: Executing murderers stop murders.
Ethical: Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, etc etc etc
CON DEATH PENALTY ARGUMENTS
Financial: Life sentence costs arounf half a million. Death penaly costs around three million
Ethical: Love your enemy, etc etc etc Also sometimes innocent people are executed.
Racial: The ratio of blacks on death row is not equal to the general population.
Here are my comments on these arguements:
While its true that you can't commit a crime after you are dead, killing criminals is probably not the most practical way to make room for more. The 'prevention' argument can go either way. There's really no way to tell. If someone is hellbent (pun intended lol) to kill someone, the percentage of first-degree murderers is not going to be very important.
Like many debates, ethical arguements can go either way. One can argue that one is from the Old Testament and the other is from the New Testament. The Commandment arguement is invalid since it is 'Thou shall not murder' and not 'kill'. However since the Law of the Land is not the Bible but the Constitution, the 'Jesus (or Moses) says its bad (or okay)' arguement is somewhat weak anyways.
One can't argue against the money reasons. Granted, it would be a lot cheaper without the Appeals Count, but then again, that would get rid of the Appeals Court, which would not be a good idea. Its easy to say only a few innocents are on death row, but its not easy to tell that to their families. As far as the black-to-white ratio, the ratio is WAY different from the general population, but it is close to the prison population. That's a whole different kettle of fish.
My position on the death penalty is somewhat complex. On one hand, I don't like the idea of a death penalty. But no one seems to have an alternative I like. A lot of people who are against the death penatly want to be easy on criminals and I certainly don't see it like that.
I don't think those who commite the most henious crimes (I place rape on that list...it use to be punishable by death) should not be in the same prisons as lesser criminals. Frankly, I'd love for the worse criminals to be packaged to Antartica with only a pair of swim trunks and a can of tuna. But, sadly, that's not very practical. Still, isolate them and give them the bare minimal. I went years without cable TV, so these guys don't need HBO.
Plus, it always seemed to be the death penalty was banking on the fact the the criminals go to Hell. I mean, I'm sure that's why stoning people was okay back in the day. But the average murder is not the God-fearing type. They probably want to die. So why cater to them like that? 'Hangin' too good for him' is a common expression.
The Constitution garentees 'life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness' to everyone and sees them as rights given to all men. However, some gifts can be taken away. You commit enough driving violations, your car is taken away. I feel that the document is ambiguous enough, though, that both sides can use it in their arguement.
The reason I added 'and other prison issues' was because I feel that the death penalty is just one issue that needs addresses. We have HUGE overcrowding problems and repeated offenders. Now, preventative measures are always good but that doesn't help the current problem. We need to make sure our prisons are built with maximam effencicy. And make sure if you get rid of the death penalty these guys don't get aquitted or get out.
So add what reforms you want to see, or just what bugs you about the System.
Happy debating!
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 15,894 Likes: 52
Fair Play! 15000+ posts
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Fair Play! 15000+ posts
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Posts: 15,894 Likes: 52 |
The fact that innocent people can end up being put to death under our system should be enough reason not to have a death penalty. Solitary confinement would be suitable for the truly guilty (& actually more cruel than death) at the same time can be undone if found innocent.
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Joined: Jan 2002
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Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
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Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
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Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13 |
quote: Originally posted by Matter-eater Man: The fact that innocent people can end up being put to death under our system should be enough reason not to have a death penalty. Solitary confinement would be suitable for the truly guilty (& actually more cruel than death) at the same time can be undone if found innocent.
Yes. I'm personally opposed to the death penalty (it makes society a murderer, and is hypocritical). But I admire that governor who said he supported the death penalty in principle but thinks it just does nto work practically. This is the rationalist perspective: if you're going to accidentally kill innocents because of the flaws in the system, then don't do it.
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,801
terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
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terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
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Dammit, you took my next Cap'n's Log topic! ![[AAAHHHH!!!]](graemlins/aahhh.gif)
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 7,281
Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
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Tabarnak! 6000+ posts
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I m inclined to be the loudest protestor against the death penalty, but there are cases that make me sad that we don't have it here in Canada. I mean there is some sick shit that goes on...Like that Holmolka(sp?) bitch who is now making a fortune off of her story. I'm sorry, but she should be dead, not running a buisness. I mean, the fact that innocents can and have been executed in the past is reason enough to rule out the death penalty...but in the age of DNA evidence and such, these things shouldn't be concerns.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43
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I think Dave and Klinton make a good point. If you could be 110% sure so-and-so commited a first degree murder, then the death penalty would be so bad. But its a human institution, and apt to mess up sometimes. The death penalty, to me, is something you hate when it exists and want when you don't have it.
Now, two questions (mostly relevent to US posters here, but of course everyone is welcomed to put in their two cents).
If legislation were to start up again against the death penalty, shouuld it be a national issue or a state-by-state issue?
What would be an alterternative to the death penalty? You can be serious or funny with this one (we do have to keep it light).
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 43
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quote: If legislation were to start up again against the death penalty, shouuld it be a national issue or a state-by-state issue?
I prefer state-by-state simply because I don't think a nation-wide elimination of the death penalty will ever happen. I think people recognize there are unfixable problems in the system and would love to see the death penalty abolish. However, unless the state leaders were able to come up with some alternative that would ensure these rats of society neve get out, the voting public would probably not vote for any changes.
quote: What would be an alterternative to the death penalty? You can be serious or funny with this one (we do have to keep it light).
Isolation is key. The early American prisons discovered that disciplan could be enforced better if the prisoners were kept seperate. Back in Texas you could see the prisoners growing and maintaining their own crops. I thought that was a great idea. Let them live isolated. Just the basics.
On a funnier note, I still like the 'Exile to Antartica' idea. Let's add radioactive-genetically-altered-man-eating penguins to it.
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
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Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
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quote: Originally posted by Dave: But I admire that governor who said he supported the death penalty in principle but thinks it just does nto work practically.
That's my view on the whole thing. I really don't oppose the death penalty as much as I thing there is a better way to go about it. I'd just put them all to hard labor for life, at least as long as they are physically able. People have to work at shitty, manual labor jobs every day just to make a living. Why shouldn't prisoners? Especially prisoners who are considered beyond rehabilitaion (hence the life sentences)? The best prison programs are those that help pay for themselves by generating income from work done by the prisoners or to at least reduce the cost of other state programs (such as highway litter clean ups).
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,342
Peacock Teaser 3000+ posts
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Peacock Teaser 3000+ posts
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Any comments on this? I'd love to hear people's input. http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030728-122350-2539r.htm quote: U.S. prisoners increase, crime drops
ASSOCIATED PRESS The United States' prison population grew last year despite a declining crime rate, costing the federal government and states an estimated $40 billion a year at a time of rampant budget shortfalls. The inmate population of more than 2.1 million last year represented a 2.6 percent increase over the year before, according to a report by the Bureau of Justice Statistics that was released yesterday. Preliminary FBI statistics showed a 0.2 percent drop in overall crime during the same span. Experts say mandatory sentences, especially for nonviolent drug offenders, are a major reason inmate populations have risen for 30 years. About 1 out of every 143 U.S. residents was in federal, state or local custody at year's end. "The nation needs to break the chains of our addiction to prison, and find less costly and more effective policies like treatment," said Will Harrell, executive director of the Texas American Civil Liberties Union. "We need to break the cycle." Others say tough sentencing laws, such as the "three strikes" laws that can put repeat offenders behind bars for life, are a chief reason for the drop in crime. The Justice Department, for example, ordered Bureau of Prisons officials this year to stop sending so many white-collar and nonviolent criminals to halfway houses. "The prospect of prison, more than any other sanction, is feared by white-collar criminals and has a powerful deterrent effect," Deputy Attorney General Larry Thompson said in a memo announcing the change. Yet the cost of housing, feeding and caring for a prison inmate is roughly $20,000 per year, or about $40 billion nationwide, using 2002 figures, according to the Sentencing Project, a nonprofit organization that promotes alternatives to prison. Construction costs are about $100,000 per cell. Even as these costs keeping climbing, the federal government is tackling a giant budget deficit, and 31 states this year are cutting spending to deal with shortfalls, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. "The prison population and budget figures, taken together, should be setting off alarm bells in state capitols," said Jason Zeidenberg, director of policy and research for the Justice Policy Institute, a nonprofit organization focused on ending reliance on incarceration. Drug offenders make up more than half of all federal prisoners. The federal penal system, which has tough sentencing policies for drug offenses, is the nation's largest at more than 151,600 — an increase of 4.2 percent compared with 2001. During the same period, state prison and jail populations grew 2.4 percent. Prison alternative advocates credit the lower growth rate to moves in some states to divert drug offenders to treatment programs and other innovations. Texas, for example, passed a drug treatment-alternative law and found that its prison population last year remain virtually unchanged from 2001. Ohio, which revised its sentencing and parole guidelines in the late 1990s, had its prison and jail population rise 0.8 percent last year. "The way to reduce prison spending is to reduce the number of people in prison and the number of prisons, like some states across the country have done," said Rose Braz, director of Critical Resistance, a California-based group opposed to prison expansion. At the same time, the Justice Department report found that 17 states reported increases of at least 5 percent year-to-year in their prison populations, with Maine's increasing 11.5 percent and Rhode Island's increasing 8.6 percent. The federal prisons and almost all state corrections systems are over its capacities, with 71,000 offenders serving their state or federal sentences in local jails. Other key points in the report: •As of Dec. 31, there were 97,491 women in state or federal prisons, or about 6.8 percent of all inmates and 1 in every 1,656 women. There were more than 1.3 million male inmates, or about 1 in 110 men. •About 10 percent of all black men between 25 and 29 were incarcerated last year, compared with 1.2 percent of white men and 2.4 percent of Hispanic men. Overall, the black men in prison, at 586,700, outnumbered the 436,800 white males as well as the 235,000 Hispanic males.
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Joined: Feb 2003
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The Once, and Future Cunt 15000+ posts
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The Once, and Future Cunt 15000+ posts
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I think we should start to freeze stack and catalog prisoners.
That way we have a quick meal without having to resort to fast food.
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 38
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25+ posts
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Do not support Death Penalty or any punishment for crime. All "crimials" are misunderstood and should not be punished for thinking and living life differently. Once tried to reason with man who entered home without permission and tried to understand him. He stab in the gut and almost died, but still believe and did not press charges. Poor lost soul he is and an Evil WORLD ORDER That force knife into gut in the end.
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,801
terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
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terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
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I suppose that I would have to oppose the death penalty in many cases. It's simply too good for some criminals. Serial rapist/killers? Why kill 'em off when you can give 'em life without parole in a cell block of people JUST LIKE THEM??? And terrorists/mass murderers/war criminals? Death may be the only commodity they trade in, but nonlethal torture has a much better exchange rate. ![[mwah hwah haa]](graemlins/devil.gif) If they get ahold of Saddam Hussein, why kill him? Leave the bastard alive! Maybe once he's had jumper cables attached to his genitals long enough, he might come around and see what he's done wrong!
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Who will I break next? 15000+ posts
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Who will I break next? 15000+ posts
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Why can't you be more tolerant of my intolerance?
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
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