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Originally posted by thedoctor:
Haven't been on the boards all weekend, so I'm catching up.
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Originally posted by Matt Kennedy:
quote:
Originally posted by thedoctor:
The only people who will see the "PETA message" are the PETA advocates themselves. No one else will give a damn about a vegan "soysage" on the field. When will they understand that none of their campaigns really help their causes?
That's actually not true, Doc. PETA gets national attention all the time with their public campaigns and protests. Think what you like about their methods (even I have to shake my head sometimes at some of their stunts--- and I'm a card-carrying member of PETA), but they definitely get their message out.
There's a big difference from getting your message out and simply grabbing attention. Yes, people will see this, but they won't understand what it's supposed to symbolise because they're not in the same train of thought as PETA. The whole "Got Prostate" campaign they did with Guilliani is a prime example. All it really did was get them sued and marked more as insensitive and extremest by the mainstream.

As far as animals being on the same level with humans, I disagree. We're smarter and feel on a different level. I personally love animals, which is why I don't have a pet right now. I don't have the room or time to properly care for one right now. Yes, they feel; but in no way can they feel the same impending doom that the sufferers of the Holocaust being slowly killed day by day and having the threat of the gas chambers hanging over them did. No animal in a slaughter house can feel that.

I agree that meat processing could be better, but I still don't see that as a reason for me to give up meat. It's just as natural for humans to eat meat as it is for us to eat fruits and vegetables.

The crux of this debate falls on the morals of the people who discuss it. Whether or not animals feel on the same level as humans is a debate that we'll never fully solve for the oppossing side.
This really isn't a matter of "animals being on the same level as humans" or animals feeling pain or impending doom on the exact same level as humans, Doc. What we do know for certain is that animals DO feel pain--- they can and do suffer. It is also perfectly reasonable to assume that they value living their lives (not in the exact same way that WE do, granted, but in their own way) free from unnecessary suffering and death.

Fact: with current, modern intensive factory farm methods "food animals" suffer greatly. In fact, without much greater cost and effort (which the majority of producers AND consumers would not go for, though it's nice to hear that Jacklyn would be willing to pay higher costs for a more "humane" system) there's little hope for an efficient system of "meat" production that could be anything but cruel and brutal.

Fact: Humans do NOT need to consume meat in order to sustain a healthy life. All leading nutritionists no longer even debate this--- they agree that this is simple truth. And I never claimed that veganism or vegetarianism was superior to a diet containing modest amounts of lean meat--- I said that it was absolutely equal to such a diet health-wise. And as far as Jacklyn's vegan horror story of malnutrition goes, all I can say is that regulating a proper, healthy vegan diet most certainly is NOT rocket science. Uneducated peasants throughout the ages have gotten perfectly suitable protein by practicing protein complimentary (the easy, simple practice of combining two or more crop-grown foods rich in protein at each meal; examples: eating rice with beans or corn) without ever having to crack open a book. Really, there's no excuse for a smart college girl like Jacklyn to have ever had any trouble practicing a vegan diet. :)

Fact: We do not need to use animals for clothing or shoes. Synthetic materials are perfectly suitable, and in most cases cheaper to buy.

Conclusion: If we do not need to consume or wear animals in order to thrive, then why subject these sensitive, feeling, breathing beings to needless suffering and death? Why do we sacrifice the most important interests of animals (their interest in living lives free from unnecessary suffering and death) every single day in order to satisfy our very trivial interests by comparison? Because steak tastes good? Because the new kick-ass Michael Jordan sneakers are made from leather? C'mon, surely any reasonable person can see how shallow and unimportant those things are in comparison to allowing a sentient being to live it's life.

In the end, however, it's a matter of choice--- we humans hold the upper hand in our relationship with animals, that much is also certain. Whether you choose to look away from the very obvious moral dilemma that factory farming presents or not, it's YOUR decision. But choose wisely, gang--- actions DO have consequences. We don't live in a vacuum.