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According to CBR, Waid has confirmed Superman: Birthright to indeed be the origin of Superman used in the comics. http://comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=3385All I have to say is they better not screw it up man. I was hoping this wouldn't happen.
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now known as rex
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Yep. At least they finally admit it. That's a good thing.
BUTTPLUG!
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Means a lot of people will buy the TPB, just for reference.
Words not violence, break the silence. Maybe.
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Well, this sucks. Not because I'm a continuity cop or anything, but Birthright felt more like a rehashing of Silver Age concepts than an actual progression of the character or mythos. If it had actually moved anything forward, I'd been all for it; but I also haven't been a big Waid fan for several years. I dunno. I'll see how it's handled afterwards. I've already got my shop ready to get me the Rucka and Lee books. We'll see where it goes from there.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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C'mon, this is DC Comics we are talking about here. Within six months they'll have published at least one story that contradicts this as continuity. 
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February sales according to CBR.
4 3 118.85 SUPERMAN BATMAN #6
26 37 61.91 ADVS O/SUPERMAN #625
27 38 61.21 ACTION COMICS #812
30 39 60.00 SUPERMAN #202
51 50 42.76 SUPERMAN BIRTHRIGHT #7
Birthright has officialy become the LOWEST selling Superman title.
Adventures of Superman, the previous holder of lowest selling title, has become the #1 selling title (not counting the combo title).
Take a bow, Mark...
This just goes to show that the only thing the character needs is good writers, not crappy reboots by sore fanboys-turned-writers.
Clearly sales had nothing to do with the decision to make BR the new origin.
This was a stupid stunt to please some fanboys-turned-pro, nothing more.
Fanboys that can't stand that someone else got to the character before them...
Let's do a comparive chart of where the titles were when BR came out (the above is from CBR, the below one is from ICV2, so the numbers may not be exactly the ones that CBR has for the same time period):
30 33.28 SUPERMAN BIRTHRIGHT #1
51 24.08 SUPERMAN #195
59 21.8 ACTION COMICS #805
69 19.84 ADVS O/SUPERMAN #618
A complete and absolute turn.
The chart flipped completely.
Last edited by ManofTheAtom; 2004-03-12 8:30 PM.
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Yet it's still selling more copies than all of the books previously did.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
Yet it's still selling more copies than all of the books previously did.
No it's not.
It's number 51, the same number that Superman was in when it came out.
Do you really think sales are gonna go up for issue 8?
And BR had nothing to do with raising sales in the three ongoing titles, that was the other guys job.
Rebooting the origin had nothing to do with raising the quality of the title, the sales on the title and people's perception of the titles.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
Quote:
thedoctor said:
Yet it's still selling more copies than all of the books previously did.
No it's not.
It's number 51, the same number that Superman was in when it came out.
Do you really think sales are gonna go up for issue 8?
And BR had nothing to do with raising sales in the three ongoing titles, that was the other guys job.
Rebooting the origin had nothing to do with raising the quality of the title, the sales on the title and people's perception of the titles.
He's not talking about how it ranks in sales. He's talking about the sale's numbers.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Then he's still wrong.
Add the three sales numbers for the three titles from when BR #1 came out and you get a higher number than issue #7.
BR isn't selling more than the three titles did when it came out.
And do you really think sales will go up with 8?
They have been going down constantly.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
February sales according to CBR.
4 3 118.85 SUPERMAN BATMAN #6
26 37 61.91 ADVS O/SUPERMAN #625
27 38 61.21 ACTION COMICS #812
30 39 60.00 SUPERMAN #202
51 50 42.76 SUPERMAN BIRTHRIGHT #7
when BR came out
30 33.28 SUPERMAN BIRTHRIGHT #1
51 24.08 SUPERMAN #195
59 21.8 ACTION COMICS #805
69 19.84 ADVS O/SUPERMAN #618
Those sales numbers for last month's BR compared to eight months' previous Superman numbers look higher to me.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Yup. And if not for the big changes in the Superman books themselves, which began after Birthright came out, I bet the 3 Superman titles would still have sales numbers below Birthright.
By the way, Birthright's numbers have gone up from 33.28 to 42.76.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
Then he's still wrong.
Add the three sales numbers for the three titles from when BR #1 came out and you get a higher number than issue #7.
I meant on a book by book basis.
Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
BR isn't selling more than the three titles did when it came out.
Yes, yes it is. On a book by book basis.
Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
And do you really think sales will go up with 8?
Quote:
33.28 SUPERMAN BIRTHRIGHT #1
42.76 SUPERMAN BIRTHRIGHT #7
According to the trend, yes. Besides, this is just up front sales. I've known some people who didn't get on board until a few issues in, then went back and bought the back issues. So Birthright #1 could have sold just as many copies in the following month as it did the first.
Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
They have been going down constantly.
Yes. That second number is clearly lower than the first number. Without question. 
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Those numbers are based on the highest selling title.
When BR came out, it was Batman with about 100,000 copies.
When BR 7 came out, it was another title with about 150,000 copies.
It's those extra 50,000 copies that raise the number you're looking at.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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I guess the criteria you are suing then is that popularity vindicates creative effort. Maus shuld never have won that Pulitzer, really, eh?
Still, I agree with your position on Birthright. Going for a Silver Age Supes is going backwards.
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I'll play the comic retard in this one:
What's so Silver Age-y about Birthright Supes?
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Quote:
TK-069 said:
I'll play the comic retard in this one:
What's so Silver Age-y about Birthright Supes?
Clark as mask.
Uber-God Superman
Krypton as Heaven/Futuristic Earth
Perry as a two dimensional background character.
Lex in Smallville.
Lois as victim.
Those are the ones that stand out.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Quote:
Dave said:
I guess the criteria you are suing then is that popularity vindicates creative effort. Maus shuld never have won that Pulitzer, really, eh?
Still, I agree with your position on Birthright. Going for a Silver Age Supes is going backwards.
Hmmm...
Let me put it like this:
Hacks don't try to be hacks, they work hard in what they do in the hope that it'll be great, it doesn't mean it's gonna be good, does it?
I mean, Kevin Costner didn't make Waterworld, Postman and Dragonfly thinking "I suck, so today I'm going to be at my suckiest" (not that I think the first two of those suck. I like Waterworld and Postman, but overall, they are considered flops, no matter how much hard work went into making them).
Ishtar, Plan 9 from Outer Space... they are considered the worst movies in the history of the medium.
Do you think that the people that made them knew they were making the worst movies in the history of their medium?
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Well, that's a different argument again, but I agree with this one.
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Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
Krypton as Heaven/Futuristic Earth
That was revealed to be Kandor. If I understsnd what you're talking about.
Quote:
Perry as a two dimensional background character.
Lex in Smallville.
When has Perry ever been interesting?? My hope for a long time is that Perry would be bumped up to a guardian of Metropolis much in the same vein as Jim Gordon is in Batman's books. If you think though, that giving Perry a soap opera subplot involving failed marriages and troubles with his son makes for 3D characterization, I have to disagree. Plus what? Birthright is just starting out. How much characterization did Perry have halfways thru Byrne's MOS anyways?
Plus Lex in Smallville has been a constant from the Silver Age to todays TV show. ONLY Byrne's MOS didn't have a Smallville Lex. So MOS is the exception. Not a problem IMO.
Quote:
Lois as victim.
Those are the ones that stand out.
I just think you're trying to tear down Birthright using any argument that you make up on the fly.
Lois has ALWAYS been a victim. Since 1938 even. She's also always been headstrong and stubborn. That is why she gets herself in situations where she needs rescue. That is as much a staple of Superman the character as his cape!
Last edited by whomod; 2004-03-15 12:14 AM.
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Quote:
whomod said:
That was revealed to be Kandor. If I understsnd what you're talking about.
Nope, I'm talking about the Krypton in BR.
It is a futuristic Earth-like world that Jor-El compared to Heaven.
Quote:
When has Perry ever been interesting?? My hope for a long time is that Perry would be bumped up to a guardian of Metropolis much in the same vein as Jim Gordon is in Batman's books. If you think though, that giving Perry a soap opera subplot involving failed marriages and troubles with his son makes for 3D characterization, I have to disagree. Plus what? Birthright is just starting out. How much characterization did Perry have halfways thru Byrne's MOS anyways?
BR is 12 issues and makes up the modern origin.
MoS continued in the World of... minis, making it an 18 issue origin.
Perry was the star of the four issue World of Metropolis mini series.
Quote:
Plus Lex in Smallville has been a constant from the Silver Age to todays TV show. ONLY Byrne's MOS didn't have a Smallville Lex. So MOS is the exception. Not a problem IMO.
The movie didn't have Lex in Smallville.
The 1988 CBS toon didn't have Lex in Smallville.
The 90's animated series didn't have Lex in Smallville.
The Adventures of Superman TV show back in the 50's didn't have Lex in Smallville.
Lois & Clark didn't have Lex in Smallville.
I *think* that the Super Powers toon didn't have Lex in Smallville.
Superfriends didn't have Lex in Smallville.
Justice League didn't have Lex in Smallville.
Only the Silver Age comics, Birthright, the Smallville TV show and the Superboy TV have had Lex in Smallville.
Lex in Smallville, as an idea, is in the minority.
Quote:
I just think you're trying to tear down Birthright using any argument that you make up on the fly.
Lois has ALWAYS been a victim. Since 1938 even. She's also always been headstrong and stubborn. That is why she gets herself in situations where she needs rescue. That is as much a staple of Superman the character as his cape!
Eh, no.
Lois wasn't a victim to be rescue between 86 and 99. She proved on more than one occasion that she had what it takes to get in and out of trouble on her own.
She didn't need Superman before he came to Metropolis or when he was dead.
She didn't need someone in spandex to rescue her during that era.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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I'm as bothered about Lex in Smallville as I am about moons around Pluto. If only we could harness your determination drive and energy towards resolving the Middle East crisis, MOTA..... 
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Quote:
Dave said:
If only we could harness your determination drive and energy towards resolving the Middle East crisis, MOTA.....
You don't want that... I've been saying for years that soon as that whole area of the world vanishes from the face of the Earth then the better off we'll all be.
Do keep in mind that I'm talking about the land, not the people...
My fix for that situation would be to relocate the people and bombard the entire area till there was nothing but glass.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
I *think* that the Super Powers toon didn't have Lex in Smallville.
Superfriends didn't have Lex in Smallville.
Superfriends DID have Lex in Smallville, I believe (I recall an episode with the famous hair-loss explosion as m first exposure to that version of continuity...)
Asode from that, I don't see any errors in your list.
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Well, perhaps third world famine then.
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Quote:
The Indestructible Man said:
Superfriends DID have Lex in Smallville, I believe (I recall an episode with the famous hair-loss explosion as m first exposure to that version of continuity...)
Asode from that, I don't see any errors in your list.
I got the Super Power toons and Superfriends confused then.
I knew that one of them used the Lex in Smallville gimmick but I couldn't remember which one.
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Quote:
Dave said:
Well, perhaps third world famine then.
I'd kill two birds with one stone.
Move the people out of the desert and turn it into a giant farm.
Problem fixed 
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You know, at this time last year I would have been laughing in MOTA's egotistical, dictatorial face for having the continiuty he declares to be holy writ get contradicted, just like so many other incarnations of Superman have been over the decades and just as Birthright itself will be in the years to come. Now, thanks to the ceasless hatred and intolerance of MOTA and his ilk towards ANYTHING that isn't 1986-1999, I couldn't care less what happens with Birthright or any other Superman story. All the vitriol and belligerence has completely turned me away from DC Comics, and I can't even begin to muster up the energy to defend the interpretations that have been unfairly flayed over the past year or so.
So do us all a favor and shut up, MOTA. You've said your piece. Now grow up and move on.
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Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
Quote:
Dave said:
If only we could harness your determination drive and energy towards resolving the Middle East crisis, MOTA.....
You don't want that... I've been saying for years that soon as that whole area of the world vanishes from the face of the Earth then the better off we'll all be.
Do keep in mind that I'm talking about the land, not the people...
My fix for that situation would be to relocate the people and bombard the entire area till there was nothing but glass.
Ladies and gentlemen, that's Man of the Atom for you.
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Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
Quote:
Dave said:
Well, perhaps third world famine then.
I'd kill two birds with one stone.
Move the people out of the desert and turn it into a giant farm.
Problem fixed
And he calls me simplistic.
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Quote:
King Krypton said:
So do us all a favor and shut up, MOTA. You've said your piece. Now grow up and move on.
You're a puny pathetic Silver Age fanboy... you tell me to grow up when you haven't been able to move away from super monkeys...
Pathetic.
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SUPERMAN: BIRTHRIGHT #11  Written by Mark Waid; art and cover by Leinil Yu and Gerry Alanguilan The penultimate chapter of the maxiseries by Mark Waid, Leinil Yu & Gerry Alanguilan! Krypton invades Earth! Whose side is Superman on? SUPERMAN | 32pg. | Color | 11 of 12 | $2.95 On Sale June 2nd, 2004
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We should start a rumour that Superman is going the Supreme route, using that cover. Quote:
Written by Mark Waid; art and cover by Leinil Yu and Gerry Alanguilan
The penultimate chapter of the maxiseries by Mark Waid, Leinil Yu & Gerry Alanguilan! The introduction of the Super Corps! Superman is recruited for an army of alternate parallel dimension versions of himself. But will he join? And what is the secret of their mysterious leader, Kal-L?
SUPERMAN | 32pg. | Color | 11 of 12 | $2.95
On Sale June 2nd, 2004
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Quote:
ManofTheAtom said:
Quote:
Dave said:
Well, perhaps third world famine then.
I'd kill two birds with one stone.
Move the people out of the desert and turn it into a giant farm.
Problem fixed
Maybe we should let you stick to superhero continuity.
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Francis Barel (francis.barel@dartmouth.edu) asks:
Hi Eddie! Thanks for all your answers! One question that I have now that we've learned that Lex and Clark were about the same age: how should we consider Jerry White? I know he's an unknown character. But his death and everything that lead to it (especially the mini-series that detailed how Alice White and Lex dated) were just truly amazing. Is it just null, now?
Eddie: Clark and Lex are not the same age, if you look at the SUPERMAN/BATMAN SECRET FILES story that Mark Waid wrote, which reintroduced Lex to Smallville, you'll see that he is much older. The SECRET FILES notes that Lex is older and put back a couple grades because no one believes he's as smart as he is. And any continuity that existed is still intact, we're just pulling layers to reveal new aspects, unless it's really convoluted then we're just trying to streamline it.
Carey Lester (track13d@aol.com) asks:
Considering Birthright, which has been stated isn't a revamp, does the rocket and the birthing matrix still stay intact? It seems that it would be easier to explain that the first issue of Birthright was a dream sequence, and the MOS origin (birthing matrix/rocketship) was correct, than to contradict 17 years of stories. The Lex history can fit within current continuity and outside cannon, but not the change in Krypton, and his birth that actually makes him a real born Earthling/American. Hopefully you will show this to be the case, and not disrespect us, the loyal fan base of 20+ years, to appease the newbies. Thank you for taking the time to read this and hopefully not alienate another long time reader.
Eddie: We don't want to alienate anyone, but you have to admit you were a newbie once too when the John Byrne revamp happened, and there were some dissatisfied fans then too. The line is a difficult one to draw because we do want to keep Superman fresh and exciting and still keep you loyal fans happy. BIRTHRIGHT is just a reinterpetation and not meant to disregard what has come before. In fact with issue #200, we really tried to say that all of Superman's origins are true from a certain perspective. So don't be bothered so much by the past, but enjoy the steps that we are making to move forward and making the books... well... Super.
Daniel Godnick (Dangstealth@yahoo.com) asks:
What exactly happened at the end of "Superman #200"? Is 1986 to the present still in continuity? Is "Birthright" affecting that continuity in any way? Thanks, I usually don't care as long as its a good story but I'm a little confused.
Eddie: By the end of the "Godfall" arc some of your questions should be answered, and yes BIRTHRIGHT counts a lot. It's purpose is to act as a primer to the books into this definitely new year for Superman and co.
http://www.supermanhomepage.com./inter-action/inter-action.php?topic=ask-eddie
Last edited by ManofTheAtom; 2004-03-16 4:38 AM.
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 5,958
some RKMB'ers are Obsessed with Black People Hmmm? 5000+ posts
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some RKMB'ers are Obsessed with Black People Hmmm? 5000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 5,958 |
Quote:
King Krypton said:
You know, at this time last year I would have been laughing in MOTA's egotistical, dictatorial face for having the continiuty he declares to be holy writ get contradicted, just like so many other incarnations of Superman have been over the decades and just as Birthright itself will be in the years to come. Now, thanks to the ceasless hatred and intolerance of MOTA and his ilk towards ANYTHING that isn't 1986-1999, I couldn't care less what happens with Birthright or any other Superman story. All the vitriol and belligerence has completely turned me away from DC Comics, and I can't even begin to muster up the energy to defend the interpretations that have been unfairly flayed over the past year or so.
So do us all a favor and shut up, MOTA. You've said your piece. Now grow up and move on.
I wouldn't give MOTA and his ilk the satisfaction of letting him have the last word on what Superman we should or should not accept. That is why i've supported Birthright from the start and why i'll support and turn anyone on to anything that moves away from the flaccid dismal '86-99' continuity.
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 985
500+ posts
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500+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 985 |
Quote:
whomod said:
That is why i've supported Birthright from the start and why i'll support and turn anyone on to anything that moves away from the flaccid dismal '86-99' continuity.
Interesting oxymoron, considering that according to Berganza, BR and everything from that "flaccid" continuity, are the same thing...
According to him, Lex went to school with BOTH Perry AND Clark...
Comics are like a Rorschach test; everyone has a different opinion on what they are and can be...
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
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Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 13 |
I've now lost interest in this, entirely.
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