RKMBs Forums .::Important::. Politics and Current Events Coalition forces torture Iraqi prisoners

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LIMBAUGH: Exactly. Exactly my point! This is no different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation and we're going to ruin people's lives over it and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You of heard of need to blow some steam off?

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Limbaugh: prisoner abuse "brilliant"

On his May 6 radio show, Rush Limbaugh continued to defend U.S. military personnel accused of abusing Iraqi prisoners, comparing the abuse photos to "good old American pornography":


LIMBAUGH: All right, so we're at war with these people. And they're in a prison where they're being softened up for interrogation. And we hear that the most humiliating thing you can do is make one Arab male disrobe in front of another. Sounds to me like it's pretty thoughtful. Sounds to me in the context of war this is pretty good intimidation -- and especially if you put a woman in front of them and then spread those pictures around the Arab world. And we're sitting here, "Oh my God, they're gonna hate us! Oh no! What are they gonna think of us?" I think maybe the other perspective needs to be at least considered. Maybe they're gonna think we are serious. Maybe they're gonna think we mean it this time. Maybe they're gonna think we're not gonna kowtow to them. Maybe the people who ordered this are pretty smart. Maybe the people who executed this pulled off a brilliant maneuver. Nobody got hurt. Nobody got physically injured. But boy there was a lot of humiliation of people who are trying to kill us -- in ways they hold dear. Sounds pretty effective to me if you look at us in the right context.

Still, Limbaugh says it's no different from a pop concert or homoerotic pornography:


LIMBAUGH: The thing though that continually amazes -- here we have these pictures of homoeroticism that look like standard good old American pornography, the Britney Spears or Madonna concerts or whatever, and yet the Libs upset about the mistreatment of these prisoners thought nothing of sitting back while mass graves were being filled with three to 500,000 Iraqis during the Saddam Hussein regime.

On his May 5 show, Limbaugh attributed the American public's outrage over the allegations to "feminization":


LIMBAUGH: I think a lot of the American culture is being feminized. I think the reaction to the stupid torture is an example of the feminization of this country.

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PenWing said:

And no, that girl is not a babe.

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I disagree. Up close, I think she's kinda purty. If I was sexually active and settled for the mildly sexy, I'd definitely hit that. And those pics are a bit too blurry to make any swift judgements.

There was another pic of her that I especially liked. Lessee if I can find it.

Here we go!



I like this one.

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http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/middle_east/jan-june04/prisoners_5-5.html

JIM LEHRER: Now, some analysis of all this by Shibley Telhami, a professor at the University of Maryland, author of the recent book "The Stakes" about Arab and Muslim perceptions of U.S. policy toward the Middle East, and Fouad Ajami, director of Middle East studies at Johns Hopkins University's School of Advanced International Studies.
First, Professor Telhami, what was your own reaction to what the president said specifically about the prisoner abuse situation in Iraq?

SHIBLEY TELHAMI: It's a good thing. It's a good thing that he appeared there. I think it certainly would have been worse if he didn't do it. It's a good thing for America to have the president say it. But in the end, hearing the content, I think there will be a lot of skepticism in the Middle East. The credibility gap is so huge. It's not just related to this one episode that is horrific and that we watch graphically.
It is that this episode reconfirms in [Arab] people's minds the pre-existing notion about the U.S.
And so therefore it's considerably harder because you don't only have to overcome this horrific episode, but you have to overcome everything else that comes with it.
And when he [President Bush] gets into the other issues like democracy and the Arab-Israeli issue, in many ways he reinforces [Arab] people's fears rather than helping overcome them.
So deviating from just stating the problem on the prisoner issue, I think, was a problem for him because in a way he states the issues in ways that reinforce people's furor in the region.

JIM LEHRER: Fouad Ajami, what was your reaction?

FOUAD AJAMI: Well, Jim, we were not loved in the Arab world the day before yesterday, the day before these pictures were made available, and we saw these horrific scenes. This just simply plays into the stereotypes people have. This has become for many of these Arabs, watching us and watching our war in Iraq, a referendum for them on the war on Iraq.
We should distinguish between people who are really genuinely embarrassed and genuinely horrified by these pictures, and people who are just ready to beat up on us.

I have something here to show you. Here is a newspaper, [inaudible] which is Saudi-owned, and there is an article by a man named, [inaudible] who is a very popular columnist in the Arab world. He says that the... it's an evil policy in Iraq , not evil soldiers.
Here's another radical Pan-Arab paper published, again, in London. Most of these papers are published in London. For them, what happened in Abu Ghraib renders naked the American position in the Arab world. It plays [to Arab suspicions]. There's a kind of pun [in the article] on the word naked.

Here's another and my final exhibit:
It's al Hayat, a Saudi-owned paper again in London . It speaks poorly of America, and poorly of what happened [specifically] at Abu Ghraib. But it [the quoted Arab newspaper published in London] speaks poorly of America every day !
And the same is true of the press of Hosni Mubarak [in Egypt], so people are waiting for us [to make a mistake, so they can accuse the U.S.]
We just simply played into their hands. For our few friends, we've made them embarrassed, genuinely embarrassed.
For our many, many enemies, well, this is just simply more fuel to a raging fire.

PRESIDENT BUSH'S COMMENTS

JIM LEHRER: So what President Bush said and did today is irrelevant?

FOUAD AJAMI: Well, I actually have always thought this whole public diplomacy is irrelevant. I know my colleague Dr. Telhami feels otherwise.
I just think this anti-Americanism is [ raging ] in the Arab world. It's a force in its own right; it's willful; it's indifferent to reason.
I mean, there are people in these papers who will tell you that there's 100,000 prisoners, that we have [awaiting] prosecution in Iraq.
There are people casting aspersion on our mission in Iraq.
It's interesting.
There is probably more anger, more simulated contrived anger outside Iraq than inside Iraq.
Some of the people angry at Abu Ghraib never uttered a word, never uttered a word in Cairo or Nablus or Amman, about anything that Saddam did to the people of Iraq, to the Shia, to the Kurds.
They have nothing to say about the massacres and the horrors in the southern Sudan that are committed by the Arab Muslims towards the Christians.
It's selective rage.
It's really selective rage.
They were waiting for us. We simply played into their hands with this episode.

JIM LEHRER: Selective rage, professor?

SHIBLEY TELHAMI: No question that it is. Obviously it is going to be used by militants as a useful tool.
But the reality of it is, you know, it is rage -- even if it's selective.
The difference is this.
Look, we are explaining the war in Iraq on the basis of bringing about democracy and human rights. That has become our primary explanation for what we're doing. So there's a huge difference in explaining what we're doing in those terms and then what we're doing in fact on the ground. That's the problem.
I think when you see these pictures, it reinforces the assumption that people had that this has always been a... an occupation of an Arab land for different strategic purposes. It's not just the content of the sexual symbols that are in there.
So I think there's a difference between, you know, when we are doing it and when Mubarak is doing it.

REACTION IN THE ARAB WORLD

JIM LEHRER: So when the president says, as he said in all these interviews and the one we just showed, "hey, this is not the America I know. The American people do not support in any way condone this. They're just as upset as you are" -- the Arab world says forget it, they don't believe it?

SHIBLEY TELHAMI: Some people will believe it. Most will not.
Let me tell you why.
There's a credibility gap. The credibility gap is real. We tell Arab leaders all the time, look, don't just do it for public relations reasons and tell us what you want to hear.
Tell that to your people and do the thing that you need to do. We're treating this as a public relations thing.

I think Fouad is actually right.

I don't think public diplomacy is the issue. I think it's what we do that matters in the end. Look, we have said to them that we're investigating a General Boykin [an American military General who made some strong statements in a Christian church, saying that the war on terror is actually a war against the evil of Islam] who made all these statements about the Muslim god is an idol....

JIM LEHRER: That was a long time ago.

SHIBLEY TELHAMI: Back in October. He's still being investigated. Nothing has happened. We [the U.S.] have been accused of violating human rights in Guantanamo, at least not subjecting ourselves to international norms. Human rights issues are brought up.
We haven't done a thing about it. So we don't... the president is not talking to our people saying, look, this is an outrageous problem for us let alone for the Middle East. This is an outrageous problem for us. We need to get to the bottom of it. We need to take some action. Then other people will believe it.

JIM LEHRER: Fouad Ajami, do you just reject the idea that Professor Telhami is saying that we have a real credibility problem in the Arab world, that it's real. It isn't just from our enemies? It's more general than that?

FOUAD AJAMI: No, I think there are two schools of thought here.

There are people who say: they hate us [the United States]. What's wrong with us?

I actually have another view which is: they hate us, what's wrong with them? Why do they have such anti-Americanism infecting their societies? And Jim, there's something very interesting which I have dubbed "the swap." This is the way this story of Abu Ghraib is being played.

JIM LEHRER: Say that again.

FOUAD AJAMI: The swap.

JIM LEHRER: The swap.

FOUAD AJAMI: Swapping. So the swap is: Abu Ghraib for Sept. 11, 2001.
Many many Arab pundits have stepped forth to say, look, we've been under your gaze since Sept. 11, 2001. You've been judging us. And now you can see that you have deviance in your midst.
There are perpetrators of these [same kind of] terrible deeds [as occurred on 9-11 ] at Abu Ghraib, so we're equal. [ But ] It's not the same.
These perpetrators of the deed in Abu Ghraib were a shameless group of men and women who need to be brought to justice, and they will be.
But the Arab story, the Arab rage, the Arab anger and the Arab radicalism, that's much more of a mainstream phenomenon.

ARAB VIEWS OF AMERICA

JIM LEHRER: Professor Telhami you talk about that it's different with -- Mubarak does something -- it's different than if President Bush does it, something else happens. To pick up on what Fouad Ajami said at the very beginning, that a lot of people in the Arab world were silent when worse things than this were happening, Arab on Arab.
Why is that?
Why is it if when America does it, it's considered a terrible thing, when other people do it, it is not?

SHIBLEY TELHAMI: First of all it's shameful that they don't say anything about it when Arabs do it. I think there is a lot of need for criticism. They ought to be ashamed of themselves when that happens in their own societies.
The problem here is that we're saying, we're doing it in the name of freeing them from that, that we are doing it for the purpose exactly of making sure that this doesn't happen.
It is, you know, aside from the militants who are extremely happy at seeing these pictures because they're tools and instruments a lot of governments in the Middle East are happy today and they're happy because it is very hard for us here in America, including us who are on boards of human rights organizations, to go out there and say, clean up your act because when the messenger has got a problem, it's harder to sell the message.

JIM LEHRER: Do you believe that the Arab world will not accept the president's vow that we will in fact clean up our act on this, that there will be an investigation, heads will roll, et cetera, under our system?

SHIBLEY TELHAMI: I think people will be watching. Frankly, the credibility gap is so pervasive that it touches not only on issues of this sort. This is only one part of the problem.
It has to do with the broader policy toward Iraq, the Arab-Israeli issue, support of authoritarian regimes. All of that is linked. The U.S. is seen to be an anchor of that system. This is only a symptom of the problem not the center of the problem.

JIM LEHRER: You would agree with that, right, Fouad Ajami?

FOUAD AJAMI: I agree. I also want to add to something that Shibley said about the Arab governments. Many Arab governments including some allied governments of ours such as the Tunisians or the Egyptians -- they're relieved !
Because we've come to them and said to them, we have this project for reforming the Middle East. We want to bring you liberty. We want to have transparent government.
And now they can have us in the middle of this storm. They have a reprieve.
They have a reprieve.
I think fundamentally they are not sympathetic to what we're doing in Iraq .
They wouldn't be sympathetic with Abu Ghraib.
They wouldn't be sympathetic without Abu Ghraib.

LOOKING AHEAD

  JIM LEHRER: So our investigation, the U.S. investigation of what happened in that prison isn't going to change any minds or change anything, right?
I mean, the idea that [ the attitude of authoritarian Arab governments regarding the U.S. torturing prisoners, and thus undermining popular Arab confidence in reform and freedom is ] : go ahead !

FOUAD AJAMI: You're right. It's not going to change anything. I mean are the people who edit and publish, just to step aside from the Arab world for just a second, are the people in Le Monde, in France, are they going to think of us any differently? Of course not.
Our enemies were waiting for us. They were waiting for us to stumble.
They were watching our deeds in Iraq. We've done tremendous good in Iraq. I've visited military headquarters in Iraq and Baghdad in Mosul and Kirkuk, we have terrific people there.
We can't tell the Arabs this. We can't convince them of this. They have the knowledge they need that we are doing evil deed, that we have brought prostitution and ruin to Iraq. This is what they believe about us that we've come to plunder the Iraqi people.

SHIBLEY TELHAMI: May I disagree with this a little bit. When you look at the impact of these pictures, they're affecting us in America. They're certainly affecting people in Paris. They're affecting people in London.

These are pictures that are going to undermine our global... frankly we don't have al Jazeera and al Arabia in Europe and Latin America and look at the public opinion polls. Anti-Americanism is at the highest level ever.

One can't argue that the level of resentment has been the same.

In the year 2000 the State Department did surveys in places like Saudi Arabia. Almost two-thirds of Saudis expressed, quote, confidence in the U.S.
Today, that's in the single digits.

We can't lump it together.
It's obviously a function of events that have taken place, a function of policies. Certainly public diplomacy is only a small part of it. And I agree it's not a one-sided blame issue. But it is a fluid situation. It isn't they just hate us. That's not the reality out there.

JIM LEHRER: Fouad Ajami, Joe Biden, the senator, a Democrat from Delaware said today or yesterday he said, quote, this is... the prison thing is, quote, the single most damaging act to our interests in the region in the last decade, end quote. Is he right?

FOUAD AJAMI: Well, I think I have tremendous affection and respect for Joe Biden. He's a good man and a great senator and a great public figure.
[But] I'm not sure I would go this far. It's not our finest moment. It's a terrible moment for us. It has become a referendum on our war.
It has given ammunition to our enemies. [But] We will work our way out of it. We'll work our way out of it with transparency, with the kind of statements that General Kimmitt made in Baghdad. He's ashamed for his army and for his forces.
And with the kinds of statements that our president has made, and with the kind of effort that we're making to bring the perpetrators of these deeds to justice. I think we'll make our way out of it.
For our enemies, we are guilty. No proof and no deed will acquit us.
For our friends, they will understand that errors happen in war, terrible things happen.
You have a vast force in Iraq -- 135,000 people -- under constant attack. These things can happen.

JIM LEHRER: We have to leave it there. Gentlemen, thank you both very much.

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JQ said:
The 500,000 children the UN and the US killed with sanctions and bombs also got very little attention.

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(From Fridays hearings:)

Rumsfeld said there are many more photographs and videos that have not been made public yet.

"It's going to get still more terrible, I'm afraid," he said.

Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., said he wants to "prepare the public: Apparently the worst is yet to come potentially in terms of disturbing events."

He later told reporters, "The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here. We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience."

He did not elaborate, but a Senate aide, speaking on condition of anonymity, said senators have been told videotapes are believed to exist showing rape and the corpses of what are possibly murder victims. The tapes were described in an additional part of an investigative report. The Pentagon (news - web sites) has not yet submitted that additional part of the report to senators, the aide said.


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&u=/ap/20040508/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_prisoner_abuse_16

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May 5, 2004


Abuse Investigation Includes 25 Deaths

Victims include Afghans and Iraqis, two of whom might have been murdered, the Pentagon says. Bush will talk to Arab media today.

By John Hendren and Patrick J. McDonnell, Times Staff Writers


WASHINGTON — Twenty-five Iraqi and Afghan war prisoners have died in U.S. custody in the last 17 months, including two Iraqi detainees who may have been murdered by Americans, senior defense officials said Tuesday as the Bush administration moved to contain international outrage over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners.

Pentagon officials released few details of the 25 deaths, which they said were among 35 cases of possible instances of prisoner abuse by U.S. soldiers........

There also were suggestions that similar problems existed at facilities used to house Afghan war prisoners as early as 2001

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WTF kind of [#@*&# thinks that these actions are much ado about nothing and are just the machinations of (again) the "liberals and the fucking "liberal media"? I suppose John Kerry and Tim Robbins and all the "liberals" went over there and forced them to turn the prison into a gulag so their "liberal" friends in the media could embarass Bush with that info.

Take off the tinfoil hat already why don't you.

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The Time Trust said:
It's in no way a "non-issue," Wonder Boy. The U.S. holds itself up as a paragon of freedom in the world and values higher standards of living, such as civil liberties, human rights, and the right to be "innocent until proven guilty". The U.S. has always condemned the torture of prisoners conducted by other countries -- is it any wonder that the world will hold the actions of U.S. soldiers up to the ideals the U.S. espouses and see hypocrisy in action? To pretend that it is a "non-issue" is to deny the reality of the situation. Iraq is a basketcase, and it's only going to get worse.

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Chant said:
But that Rumsfeld comes out and says to the media and the people shows that they admit it happened, and that something worse happened aswell.
That at least, counts for something

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rexstardust said:
shut up liberal.

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whomod said:

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Chant said:
But that Rumsfeld comes out and says to the media and the people shows that they admit it happened, and that something worse happened aswell.
That at least, counts for something

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The only problem with that statement is that the abuse was well known a long time ago but Rumsfeld is only now being so forthcoming thanks to that CBS 60 Minutes II broadcast which blew this story open. If not for that peice, I doubt we'd be here discussing this or Rumsfeld would be disclosing anything to the public and/or Congress.

The Red Cross disclosed that it had been warning American officials of WIDESREAD (not isolated incidents) of prisoner abuse for much of 2003 to no avail. Where was Rumsfeld then?

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The Time Trust said:
It's in no way a "non-issue," Wonder Boy. The U.S. holds itself up as a paragon of freedom in the world and values higher standards of living, such as civil liberties, human rights, and the right to be "innocent until proven guilty". The U.S. has always condemned the torture of prisoners conducted by other countries -- is it any wonder that the world will hold the actions of U.S. soldiers up to the ideals the U.S. espouses and see hypocrisy in action? To pretend that it is a "non-issue" is to deny the reality of the situation. Iraq is a basketcase, and it's only going to get worse.

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Updated: 04:38 AM EDT

Female Soldier Charged in Iraqi Abuse Case

By MARGARET LILLARD, AP

RALEIGH, N.C. (May 8) - Although relatives insist she was following orders, the military charged an Army reservist with assaulting detainees after photographs surfaced of her smiling and pointing at naked Iraqi prisoners.

Pfc. Lynndie England on Friday became the seventh member of an Army Reserve military police unit to be charged in a scandal that has drawn outrage around the world and damaged the reputation of the United States as it tries to stabilize Iraq.

England 21, faces four allegations, according to a statement from the XVIII Airborne Corps at Fort Bragg.

She is accused of assaulting Iraqi detainees on multiple occasions; conspiring with another soldier, Spc. Charles Graner, to mistreat the prisoners; committing an indecent act; and committing acts ''that were prejudicial to good order and discipline and were of nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces through her mistreatment of Iraqi detainees.''

Earlier Friday, England's relatives said she was following orders when she posed for the pictures. They could not be immediately reached for comment after the charges were announced.

''I don't believe my sister did what was in those photos,'' Jessica Klinestiver said. ''Certain people told her what to do. I believe they were posed.''

In photographs that have been shown repeatedly in news reports, England is seen smiling, cigarette in her mouth, as she leans forward and points at the genitals of a naked, hooded Iraqi.

Another photo shows her holding a leash that encircles the neck of a naked Iraqi man lying on his side on a cellblock floor, his face contorted.

The charges must be taken up in Article 32 investigation, a process similar to a civilian grand jury, before England would face a general court-martial. Potential penalties could range from a reprimand to imprisonment and a punitive discharge, according to Fort Bragg spokesman Col. Billy Buckner.

Buckner said a military lawyer has not been appointed yet to represent England, now four months pregnant and assigned to a military police unit at Fort Bragg. She also could hire a civilian lawyer.

Both England and Graner were members of the Army Reserve's 372nd Military Police Company, based in Cumberland, Md. Graner's attorney has said he faces a possible court-martial on criminal charges of maltreatment and indecent acts.

England's family said she is pregnant with Graner's child.

England, who had been doing administrative work for the MP unit at Fort Bragg, will continue her duties for the present, the Corps statement said. She was not in custody.

After photos from the Abu Ghraib prison were beamed around the globe, reporters flocked to Fort Ashby, a town of 1,300 people where England's extended family lives. England's parents left town Thursday to escape the attention.

The family's lawyer, Roy Hardy, said he arranged a news conference in Fountain, W.Va., to relieve family members from constant media pressure.

''No one has the full story of what was going on in those pictures,'' Hardy said. ''They don't show what was behind her, beside her or what was going on behind the scenes.

''When all this comes to light, she will not be depicted the way she's being depicted right now,'' he said.

England's relatives have said she was a ''paper pusher'' in Iraq who processed inmates and only went to the prison to visit friends who worked there.

England was described as a kind young woman who loves athletics and the outdoors and is unafraid to speak her mind. She joined the Army Reserve as a high school junior to earn money for college.

Family and friends showed reporters a half-dozen photos of England, including images from her senior prom and high school graduation in 2001.

''I just wanted to make sure you guys knew she was a human being,'' Hardy told reporters.

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Associated Press Writer Gavin McCormick in Fountain, W.Va., contributed to this report.

AP-NY-05-08-04 0358EDT

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Earlier Friday, England's relatives said she was following orders when she posed for the pictures.

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Both England and Graner were members of the Army Reserve's 372nd Military Police Company, based in Cumberland, Md. Graner's attorney has said he faces a possible court-martial on criminal charges of maltreatment and indecent acts.

England's family said she is pregnant with Graner's child.

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The actions of a few do not reflect the philosophy of a nation.

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Dave said:

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The actions of a few do not reflect the philosophy of a nation.

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Are you sure its "the few"? Seems that these guys were told by military intelligence to soften them up for interrogation.

This story reads like the US have overthrown one tortuous regime and replaced it with another.

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Dave said:
I was in the States when this story broke.

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The actions of a few do not reflect the philosophy of a nation.

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Are you sure its "the few"? Seems that these guys were told by military intelligence to soften them up for interrogation.

This story reads like the US have overthrown one tortuous regime and replaced it with another.

As for Dave TWB's comment that Bush should not have apologised because its a sign of weakness.... I don't know what to say to you, Dave, other than to let you know that I have the most utter contempt for your personal value system.

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I can't believe it. I just get here and already I meet the first biggest retard I've ever encountered in my entire message board career.

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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:

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Dave said:

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The actions of a few do not reflect the philosophy of a nation.

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Are you sure its "the few"? Seems that these guys were told by military intelligence to soften them up for interrogation.

This story reads like the US have overthrown one tortuous regime and replaced it with another.

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So you honestly believe that?

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pam said:

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Dave said:
I was in the States when this story broke.

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The actions of a few do not reflect the philosophy of a nation.

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Are you sure its "the few"? Seems that these guys were told by military intelligence to soften them up for interrogation.

This story reads like the US have overthrown one tortuous regime and replaced it with another.

As for Dave TWB's comment that Bush should not have apologised because its a sign of weakness.... I don't know what to say to you, Dave, other than to let you know that I have the most utter contempt for your personal value system.

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I can't believe it. I just get here and already I meet the first biggest retard I've ever encountered in my entire message board career.

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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
i just guess i dislike comments comparing the stuff we've seen with what sadaam has done. there are several notable differences one saddams abuses were state sanctioned and so far there is no proof this came from higher up then mid level commanders. also what we've seen so far is very brutal and humiliating but not on par with dipping people alive in acid and cutting off heads and other inhuman practices by saddam and the baath party. granted there will prolly be some very brutal stuff to come out but i dont think its systematic govt policy but misguided and in some cases rascist soldiers.

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Dave said:

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pam said:

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Dave said:
I was in the States when this story broke.

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The actions of a few do not reflect the philosophy of a nation.

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Are you sure its "the few"? Seems that these guys were told by military intelligence to soften them up for interrogation.

This story reads like the US have overthrown one tortuous regime and replaced it with another.

As for Dave TWB's comment that Bush should not have apologised because its a sign of weakness.... I don't know what to say to you, Dave, other than to let you know that I have the most utter contempt for your personal value system.

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I can't believe it. I just get here and already I meet the first biggest retard I've ever encountered in my entire message board career.

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Its clear you are new here. Can you contribute something intelligent? I personally haven't called anyone a "retard" since I was 11.

You might disagree with me, and think that its morally acceptible for the Commander in Chief of the US armed forces not to apologise for the behaviour of his troops in torturing prisoners, because to apologise would "show weakness".

If that's truly the case, then you should feel free to properly articulate this point of view.

To be clear, my own view is that anyone who thinks that Bush should not have apologised for the torture of prisoners by troops under the President's command, because it would be considered "weak", is morally weak themselves. I have nothing but contempt for their lack of decency, compassion and humanity.

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pam said:

Well Dave, I could put as much effort in responding to you as Britneyspears--Whatever. But you see, reading misleading posts that disproportionize situations--Like the posts you've put forth have done just tell me to not bother. I've dealt with enough self centered and insufferable people to spot them from a mile away. And that's the case here, and it is such that I never want to affiliate myself with because they are impossible to convince. So I don't beat around the bush and just tell it like it is.

You can imply that I'm rude and that I'm disregarding parts of your posts that show you as someone who cares, but that doesn't lead me away from the fact that I find what you say to be....Distasteful for lack of a better word.

No worries though. This bloke Whomod seems to be scoring higher than you on the idiot-meter. He's almost tying with this other guy Mcdonough or.....Something that I'm reading up on in other threads.

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In other words, she don't do nuance.

Which of course is the heart of diplomacy as well as intelligent conversation.

Though reading that quoted post and it's phrases gives me a creepy and familiar feeling of deja-vu. But that's about as far as i'm going to entertain that thought.

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pam said:
I rest my case.

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